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baltec1
1318
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Posted - 2012.06.03 14:06:00 -
[61] - Quote
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:There are better things to do and better games to play that do not involve following a "Wall-Of-Text" of Rules to avoid ganking.
Game is fatally unbalanced.
Game is Over.
If you cannot manage to wrap your brain around fitting a tank to a mining barge then this really isn't the game for you. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1748
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Posted - 2012.06.03 14:06:00 -
[62] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:RubyPorto wrote: Are Hulks bad at mining? Why do they need a boost in utility?
Yes. It doesn't mine much more then the Covetor which needs tank itself. Covetor needs a Shield Tank, Hulk needs fitting.
The Hulk still mines more than the Yield fit Covetor when tank fit. QED, they are not bad at mining when tankfit. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
Perkone Caldari State
145
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Posted - 2012.06.03 14:06:00 -
[63] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
If my 17 suggestions are a Wall of Text, you should see the PvP guids, Krixtal.
Anyway, You've given up on the game and quit (loudly). Why do you keep posting about a game that you've given up on?
To pi** off obsessives like yourself. Ohh poor silly goon chillrens. Nobody in high sec cares about your plans to occupy jita like a bunch of dirty hippies. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1748
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Posted - 2012.06.03 14:08:00 -
[64] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Snow Axe wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:It means the best "choice" is to not use it. When the best choice for a ship is to not use it, it's a telltale sign something somewhere is wrong. It's the best "choice" not to use it if you're mining solo in highsec and refuse to either partner up with others (or use an alt) to help your survivability. For anyone who doesn't fit into this really narrow way of doing things, it's still the "best" ship to use. Let me tell you how many partners I need to do an L4 in a top extreme gank fit Maelstrom: zero. It is a "baby vargur" fit I improved. With T1 ammo It melts everything so fast that the lock time is the limiting factor. At the same time it can tank the whole full pocket aggro Worlds Collide hard room (1.5k DPS if I recall correctly) which is the second most damaging L4 in game (the Gallente version tends to bug and aggro on warp in). I only needed it once when I was low skilled, but in case something really bad happens, I ALSO have a cap booster 800 without really giving up anything. Did I say it has no faction guns? And the shield booster is a cheap-ish one? Oh, guess how many partners do I have to take for low sec Tengu exploration? The same amount I need for Drake (a puny T1 BC) C3 WH soloing. The same amount I need for low sec carrier docking games. Guess what can I do in my Vargur? Not only solo L4 but also salvage in one package.
Do you expect to survive in your LS exploration if you're semi-afk? That's what the tanked Hulk is for. Do you expect your baby Varg to finish a mission effectively while semi-afk?
The Tanked Hulk is to passively prevent ganks. There are several ways to actively prevent ganks that don't require any tank. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1748
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Posted - 2012.06.03 14:09:00 -
[65] - Quote
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:There are better things to do and better games to play that do not involve following a "Wall-Of-Text" of Rules to avoid ganking.
Game is fatally unbalanced.
Game is Over. There are games like that. In EvE you have to follow a wall of text guide to do ANYTHING or you can bumble along and bark your shins on every piece of furniture until you figure it out. If my 17 suggestions are a Wall of Text, you should see the PvP guids, Krixtal. Anyway, You've given up on the game and quit (loudly). Why do you keep posting about a game that you've given up on? Why do YOU breathe ?
I enjoy it. Are you suggesting I stop?
Why do you post here if you've quit the game? Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1750
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Posted - 2012.06.03 14:49:00 -
[66] - Quote
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:RubyPorto wrote:
If my 17 suggestions are a Wall of Text, you should see the PvP guids, Krixtal.
Anyway, You've given up on the game and quit (loudly). Why do you keep posting about a game that you've given up on?
To pi** off obsessives like yourself.
Why do you edit your posts? Can't you stand by your words? Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
Perkone Caldari State
147
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Posted - 2012.06.03 14:53:00 -
[67] - Quote
ob-+ses-+sion/+Öb-êseSH+Ön/
Noun: An idea or thought that continually preoccupies or intrudes on a person's mind.
Ohh poor silly goon chillrens. Nobody in high sec cares about your plans to occupy jita like a bunch of dirty hippies. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1750
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 14:57:00 -
[68] - Quote
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:ob-+ses-+sion/+Öb-êseSH+Ön/
Noun: An idea or thought that continually preoccupies or intrudes on a person's mind.
I play the game. I have a vested interest in improving it or preventing it from being negatively impacted per my vision.
The people I'm arguing with here play the game. They have a vested interest in improving it or preventing it from being negatively impacted per their vision.
I may disagree with these people, but I respect that they have a horse in the race.
You quit the game quite loudly. You have no interest vested in the game anymore. Why are you posting? Is it because the game still continually preoccupies your mind? Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1103
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 14:59:00 -
[69] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
Your Hulk has a Mining Laser permanently attached in its stats. No need to fit another one.
Are you seriously trying to justify 10 times the covetor cost with the equivalent of 1 MLU? I can tank a fleeted covetor to survive a 0.0 NPC attack for the short time it takes for the rats to die. So tank is not a factor anyway.
RubyPorto wrote: Not every ship needs to be the best (or even useful) in every situation.
So, a Mack is meant exclusively for 0.0 and with a fleet or is absolutely worthless. Got it.
Is it enough or do they also need a certain star aligmnent and a nice horoscope reading for the day? A sunny day but not above 25 degrees? What about humidity? Is 60% OK or will the paper tank melt due to it?
At the same time I can use a shoddy pilot with expendable mods in a 'cane for:
- PvP and be an hell good at it. - Fleet PvP including sniper - Gas harvesting (!) - One of the most used mission salvaging ships before Noctis. - PvE like a pro including hi and low sec L3 and L4 missions. - FW - Solo C3 WHs almost like a Drake - Can fit a cloak for nullsec and still be viable (Been there done that) - Solo hi and some low sec anoms.
I am probably missing some more.
I am not even listing a Drake or a Tengu, which put 'cane to shame for some things.
Now tell me again why a Mack has to be that **** and being barely better than an Hulk on its only super-specialized job.
RubyPorto wrote: (By the way, you cannot balance a game while including a player run subsidy in your discussion, otherwise, I could offer Hulk insurance and then Hulks would be OP because they don't cost anything to lose)
Yes you can balance a game when any player factor can push mechanics far enough. Gfidex posted about why Concord became what it is now and it was wholly player caused. Also, as I posted yesterday, GANKING IS FINE, non tanking afkers should die and blah blah. What's not fine is that it's possible for a corporation to completely take over multiple foundations of the only server of a MMO. It should never be possible to earn so much that you can permatank expenses in 0.0, in hi sec, buy up ALL the Tech market when it tanked and still have massive investments in other key commodities.
As I said, in every PvP game you get the "you won" end screen and then you start a new scenario / battleground / whatever. In EvE we don't have the ability to restart an instance so there have to be mechanics able to prevent total takeovers.
Since we don't have them, then the next counter-measure is to limit the amount of damage they can deal to the rest of the playerbase. So yes, player run subsidy is the tip of the iceberg of a whole jungle of EvE design deficencies. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1103
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:00:00 -
[70] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: Everyone else who solos cannot do so completely (or even semi-)AFK at the absolute pinnacle of efficiency (AFK brick Domi runs missions SLOOW)
Arty Mael = fire and alt tab during reload. I used to check my mining ships more often than I do when using that ship. In fact I can play 5 arty Maels at the same time, it's almost impossible to be as efficient with Exhumers unless you only do ice.
Also, the pinnacle of efficiency has to be considered with regard of the task duration. Arty mael = pocket cleaned in 5 minutes tops, have to be attentive for 5 minutes to achieve the task. A mack takes less attention but needs 20 minutes for *1* fill.
RubyPorto wrote: Do you expect to survive in your LS exploration if you're semi-afk?
Are you joking? Semi AFK in a damn globally visible belt in a ISK pinata? Also, irrelevant #2, with buffer tank you will die AFK in LS (you can even AFK die in hi sec in 0.5 sec mission pocket quad rats spawn) so you need to switch to active tanking which makes the comparison about apples and oranges.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
Perkone Caldari State
147
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Posted - 2012.06.03 15:00:00 -
[71] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:ob-+ses-+sion/+Öb-êseSH+Ön/
Noun: An idea or thought that continually preoccupies or intrudes on a person's mind.
I play the game. I have a vested interest in improving it or preventing it from being negatively impacted per my vision. The people I'm arguing with here play the game. They have a vested interest in improving it or preventing it from being negatively impacted per their vision. I may disagree with these people, but I respect that they have a horse in the race. You quit the game quite loudly. You have no interest vested in the game anymore. Why are you posting? Is it because the game still continually preoccupies your mind?
All this advice. It must indicate love. Ohh poor silly goon chillrens. Nobody in high sec cares about your plans to occupy jita like a bunch of dirty hippies. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
Alia Gon'die
Aliastra Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:01:00 -
[72] - Quote
Little Brat wrote:Makkal Hanaya wrote:Little Brat wrote:In the big picture mining in hisec has declined almost by half. May I ask for your source for this statement? Indeed, you may ask. It was something I gleened from the forums, I recall something specific though I did not know exactly. was porbablly a goon post anyway lol
It was from a Dev twitter post. The one guy who always posts the stats and stuff. |
Singoth
Kronos Fleet
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:03:00 -
[73] - Quote
Best high-sec mining tip EVAH: don't mine in high-sec, move to goonspace. Start mining in the shadow of the dragon, it's quite comfy under it's wings. Less yappin', more zappin'! |
Bossy Lady
Aliastra Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:04:00 -
[74] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: It should never be possible to earn so much that you can permatank expenses in 0.0, in hi sec, buy up ALL the Tech market when it tanked and still have massive investments in other key commodities.
So you want to hugely nerf hi-sec trading and industry, then?
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1103
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:08:00 -
[75] - Quote
Bossy Lady wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: It should never be possible to earn so much that you can permatank expenses in 0.0, in hi sec, buy up ALL the Tech market when it tanked and still have massive investments in other key commodities.
So you want to hugely nerf hi-sec trading and industry, then?
No, because they are already self balancing. Trading optimizes spreads, industry has its own competition. But markets in EvE are not liquid (read: we lack about 700k players to make them smooth and strong) so they are easily taken over. Even the biggest markets can be taken over and this is not good as it could be used for server wide stranglehold. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1750
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:15:00 -
[76] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Are you seriously trying to justify 10 times the covetor cost with the equivalent of 1 MLU?
T2 Has Never been Cost Effective. It allows you to field more X per pilot at the expense of much more ISK per X.
Quote: So, a Mack is meant exclusively for 0.0 and with a fleet or is absolutely worthless. Got it.
Is it enough or do they also need a certain star aligmnent and a nice horoscope reading for the day? A sunny day but not above 25 degrees? What about humidity? Is 60% OK or will the paper tank melt due to it?
It can also mine Ice in HS. You just need to be actively watching out. Your brain is your ship's tank.
Quote: At the same time I can use a shoddy pilot with expendable mods in a 'cane for:
- PvP and be an hell good at it. - Fleet PvP including sniper - Gas harvesting (!) - One of the most used mission salvaging ships before Noctis. - PvE like a pro including hi and low sec L3 and L4 missions. - FW - Solo C3 WHs almost like a Drake - Can fit a cloak for nullsec and still be viable (Been there done that) - Solo hi and some low sec anoms.
I am probably missing some more.
I am not even listing a Drake or a Tengu, which put 'cane to shame for some things.
Now tell me again why a Mack has to be that **** and being barely better than an Hulk on its only super-specialized job.
T2 is Hyperspecialized and Never cost effective.
Quote:RubyPorto wrote: (By the way, you cannot balance a game while including a player run subsidy in your discussion, otherwise, I could offer Hulk insurance and then Hulks would be OP because they don't cost anything to lose)
Yes you can balance a game when any player factor can push mechanics far enough. Gfidex posted about why Concord became what it is now and it was wholly player caused. Also, as I posted yesterday, GANKING IS FINE, non tanking afkers should die and blah blah. What's not fine is that it's possible for a corporation to completely take over multiple foundations of the only server of a MMO. It should never be possible to earn so much that you can permatank expenses in 0.0, in hi sec, buy up ALL the Tech market when it tanked and still have massive investments in other key commodities. CONCORD was buffed because CCP hadn't anticipated the tactics that caused the problem. HAG is using tactics that CCP explicitly has anticipated and endorsed on a scale that has 4 precedents (the other HAGs.
It's been possible for Years. GSF isn't the first one to do it. BoB did it as well. People whined about BoB as well. This is a player run game at all levels. BOB owned significantly more territory than GSF does. GSF's power will fade eventually. CCP has seen this before.
The entirety of the GSF's payouts have amounted to 20b Isk. I'm going to limit this to talking about HAG since another Goon whine thread would be off topic here.
This is a player run economy. Players making fun is fine.
[/quote] As I said, in every PvP game you get the "you won" end screen and then you start a new scenario / battleground / whatever. In EvE we don't have the ability to restart an instance so there have to be mechanics able to prevent total takeovers.
Since we don't have them, then the next counter-measure is to limit the amount of damage they can deal to the rest of the playerbase. So yes, player run subsidy is the tip of the iceberg of a whole jungle of EvE design deficencies. [/quote]
You get "you win" screens in PvP Minecraft servers? You get "you win" screens in PvP WoW servers? You get "you win" screens in PvP EQ servers?
Open world, sandbox PvP games do not have win conditions. If you want a PvP game with win conditions that let everybody start over, that's fine. They're fun. EvE isn't one of them. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1750
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:18:00 -
[77] - Quote
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:ob-+ses-+sion/+Öb-êseSH+Ön/
Noun: An idea or thought that continually preoccupies or intrudes on a person's mind.
I play the game. I have a vested interest in improving it or preventing it from being negatively impacted per my vision. The people I'm arguing with here play the game. They have a vested interest in improving it or preventing it from being negatively impacted per their vision. I may disagree with these people, but I respect that they have a horse in the race. You quit the game quite loudly. You have no interest vested in the game anymore. Why are you posting? Is it because the game still continually preoccupies your mind? All this advice. It must indicate love.
I gave no advice. I asked questions. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1750
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:26:00 -
[78] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:RubyPorto wrote: Everyone else who solos cannot do so completely (or even semi-)AFK at the absolute pinnacle of efficiency (AFK brick Domi runs missions SLOOW)
Arty Mael = fire and alt tab during reload. I used to check my mining ships more often than I do when using that ship. In fact I can play 5 arty Maels at the same time, it's almost impossible to be as efficient with Exhumers unless you only do ice. Also, the pinnacle of efficiency has to be considered with regard of the task duration. AC mael = pocket cleaned in 5 minutes tops, have to be attentive for 5 minutes to achieve the task. A mack takes less attention but needs 20 minutes for *1* fill.
The Hulk with 2 MLUII is the most efficient miner in the game. Aside from ganks, it can be run semi-afk. The Gank Mach is probably the most generally efficient Mission runner/ratter in the game. It requires constant management to run missions safely or with any amount of efficiency.
The Dominix is a mediocre Mission runner, but can run enough tank to grind through with sentries while semi-afk. The Hulk with 2 MLUII is the most efficient miner in the game. Aside from ganks, it can be run semi-afk.
Quote:RubyPorto wrote: Do you expect to survive in your LS exploration if you're semi-afk?
Are you joking? Semi AFK in a damn globally visible belt in a ISK pinata? Also, irrelevant #2, with buffer tank you will die AFK in LS (you can even AFK die in hi sec in 0.5 sec mission pocket quad rats spawn) so you need to switch to active tanking which makes the comparison about apples and oranges.
So you don't expect to survive if you leave your top of the line Exploration ship afk. Why should you expect to survive id you leave your top of the line Mining ship afk?
Why am I harping on AFK? Because tanking your Hulk is the option that allows you to safely AFK. You can also max your yield and actively fly it safely. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
463
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:56:00 -
[79] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote: As been demonstrated in the past, if an issue is constantly being brought to CCP's attention, they will eventually take action which usually involves swinging the nerf and buff bats. DMC
1) What rules are Gankers breaking? 2) Where has CCP said anywhere in EvE should be safe (let alone HS)? 3) Why do you play a game that doesn't offer the content you prefer? 4) If you believe in something, why do you suggest that it's wrong to stand up and argue for it?
1) no where does DMC say gankers are breaking rules. 2) no where does DMC say "CCP said somewhere in Eve should be safe". 3) no where does DMC say that the game doesn't deliver what he wants. 4) no where does DMC say that it's wrong to stand up and argue for it.
why are you asking questions about what he didn't say?
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1104
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:57:00 -
[80] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
T2 Has Never been Cost Effective. It allows you to field more X per pilot at the expense of much more ISK per X
Interdictors are so bad, their tank is just a smidge better than a destroyer. Let's not talk about cov ops or command ships.
All so very gimped, they are those collector shiny thingies you leave hanging on the shelf. Let's not mention Falcons, I mean, they are made for strict 0.0 combat with a foggy weather and 32 degrees temperature.
RubyPorto wrote: It can also mine Ice in HS. You just need to be actively watching out. Your brain is your ship's tank
My brain is my wallet tank. It's just terminally stupid to EVER use a ship that can exclusively do 1 thing, has a fraction of the tank the other, multipurpose ship can get and even then, it got some low single digit percent better performance.
If this is not the textbook definition of a broken ship, nothing else is.
RubyPorto wrote: T2 is Hyperspecialized and Never cost effective
Interceptors, cov ops, blockade runners and JFs beg to differ. Some of them let achieve stuff that would require 10 times the risk and time or group effort required in T1 variants.
RubyPorto wrote: CONCORD was buffed because CCP hadn't anticipated the tactics that caused the problem. HAG is using tactics that CCP explicitly has anticipated and endorsed on a scale that has 4 precedents
CCP did not anticipate one corp could replace insurance, which CCP removed exactly to curb FFA hi sec gameplay (and ISK faucet). CCP did not anticipate one corp could buy out whole game foundation markets for an indefinite amount of time.
CCP anticipated nasty, but not smart. This of course is a regrettable situation at best, because you can't nerf or punish smart. At the same time, the continued orderly operation of important parts of the server is at peril.
Whereas a blob could incidentally slow / crash a node, it changes meaning when the same corp can permanently slow or crash a node. It's a DOS attack on parts of EvE.
Also Goon <> and even > BoB for damage potential. BoB where a group with a classic "hard core-elite raider" mentality leadership. They were not out to kill parts of the game.
BoB had competing enemies able to keep them busy and unable to take over. Who are going to take CFC down? They need to screwup something big by themselves again, but I heard this time they actually setup sov fee on a permanently fed wallet.
RubyPorto wrote: You get "you win" screens in PvP Minecraft servers? You get "you win" screens in PvP WoW servers? You get "you win" screens in PvP EQ servers?
Yes you can get them. Once again, been there, lived that. Expecially dual faction servers (you forgot warhammer and DAoC and SW:Tor) tend to have one faction slowly taking over and then they end up perma-camping the others, who just all quit or move server. After a while the winners get bored because now they are 10:1 and start quitting themselves. This phenomenon was so bad on some pure PvP MMOs to take their 800K day 1 playerbase down to today's 5k...
Even in WoW I played on a server (Genjuros) where Alliance all quit at a certain point and despite the free migration option none was so stupid to return and the server basically died.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1104
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 15:59:00 -
[81] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: The Hulk with 2 MLUII is the most efficient miner in the game. Aside from ganks, it can be run semi-afk. The Gank Mach is probably the most generally efficient Mission runner/ratter in the game. It requires constant management to run missions safely or with any amount of efficiency
- Gank Mach cleans the whole pocket in 1/4 of the time required by the Hulk. The effort is just more concentrated but is not quantitatively more. - Gank Mach finishes in 5 minutes, ice Hulk in 20. 15 minutes of full station AFK time for Mach.
RubyPorto wrote: So you don't expect to survive if you leave your top of the line Exploration ship afk.
In hi sec you can leave it AFK. Actually if it's passive fit you can leave it till next downtime. If it's big enough (i.e. Drake in 4/10) its natural regen keeps it alive even with active tank, even not using it. In hi sec you have to buffer tank the mining ship for gankers. If you leave it afk in one of the safest hi sec mining places (grav site / mission pocket) any quad frig spawn will kill it if AFK enough.
RubyPorto wrote: Why am I harping on AFK? Because tanking your Hulk is the option that allows you to safely AFK
No, tanking my Hulk is the option to avoid basic gank. The medium ganker (5 catalysts) will probably get all but the "concept super tank, mines for squat" Hulk setups. And, all it takes to completely make it unsafe and unviable is Mittani popping a finger and decide to pay 100M per ganked tanked Hulk. Because he can and it's fun. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
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Frederick Sanger
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
112
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Posted - 2012.06.03 16:11:00 -
[82] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Quote: Those tank mods on combat ships still take up slots that we'd rather fill with Damage mods, just like Hulk pilots would like to fit Yield mods in their lows. Tank is not everything, it's a tradeoff in every case.
The Hulk has 2 lows, 2 rigs, and a bunch of mids so that you have to CHOOSE between tank and yield.
Yet you shouldn't have too.. In almost every ship you can choose to maximize your damage or maximize your survivability. It's no different in a Hulk. Stop trying to have your cake and eat it too.
How about we make it more rewarding to those miners who properly fit their hulks and are not afk at the expense of those who afk mine and bot in hulks with characters who have zero fitting skills? Oh wait, we are. You're welcome. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1751
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 16:25:00 -
[83] - Quote
[quote=Vaerah Vahrokha] How many tackle frigates can you buy for the cost of one Dictor? (not perfect, but the T2 that add odd abilities are weird) How many Blackbirds can you buy for one Falcon?
Not cost effective because most T2 (all of the ones that don't add specific special abilities) add a much smaller X boost than simply buying the same ISK worth of the T1 ship.
T2 allows you to make up for smaller numbers by spending more Isk. It has always cost significantly more to fit say X DPS and Y EHP in T2 forms (though you need fewer ships to do it) than in T1.
300m (Hulk Price) worth of Covetors DRASTICALLY outmines a Hulk. That's what I meant by cost effective.
Quote: My brain is my wallet tank. It's just terminally stupid to EVER use a ship that can exclusively do 1 thing, has a fraction of the tank the other, multipurpose ship can get and even then, it got some low single digit percent better performance.
If this is not the textbook definition of a broken ship, nothing else is.
Then don't use it if the better performance isn't worth it in your situation. Plenty of other people find that the Hulks benefits are worth the additional cost. Especially when they put in some effort to make sure that a buffer tank is not necessary for survival.
Quote:
Interceptors, cov ops, blockade runners and JFs beg to differ. Some of them let achieve stuff that would require 10 times the risk and time or group effort required in T1 variants.
They're different. I do apologize, I recognize I wasn't clear about what I meant. T2 Ships that do not include special abilities (Bubbles, Jumps[though the JF's role can be filled by the Rorq and Carriers],etc) and simply include bonuses (HACs, Exhumers, AFs, Ceptors, Marauders, etc) cost more than an equivalently capable group of T1 ships, though it will allow fewer pilots to achieve that capability.
Quote:
CCP did not anticipate one corp could replace insurance, which CCP removed exactly to curb FFA hi sec gameplay (and ISK faucet). CCP did not anticipate one corp could buy out whole game foundation markets for an indefinite amount of time.
CCP knows how much Isk is available in the game. 20b ISK is not a lot of money (given that there are Modules that expensive). If CCP did not anticipate mass scale market manip, they should have learned their lesson from the T2 BPO Cartels, BoB, and the many smaller market manips that happen every day.
Quote: CCP anticipated nasty, but not smart. This of course is a regrettable situation at best, because you can't nerf or punish smart. At the same time, the continued orderly operation of important parts of the server is at peril.
Whereas a blob could incidentally slow / crash a node, it changes meaning when the same corp can permanently slow or crash a node. It's a DOS attack on parts of EvE.
Also Goon <> and even > BoB for damage potential. BoB where a group with a classic "hard core-elite raider" mentality leadership. They were not out to kill parts of the game.
BoB had competing enemies able to keep them busy and unable to take over. Who are going to take CFC down? They need to screwup something big by themselves again, but I heard this time they actually setup sov fee on a permanently fed wallet.
So fleet battles are DDOS attacks? GSF very politely told CCP that they expected a fleet fight in Jita. CCP reinforced Jita's node just like for any other fleet fight.
BoB caused a similar amount of disruption as GSF has, no matter what their intentions.
BoB fell to internal strife. It was not ultimately killed by internal forces.
___________________________________ "Yes you can get them. Once again, been there, lived that. Expecially dual faction servers (you forgot warhammer and DAoC and SW:Tor) tend to have one faction slowly taking over and then they end up perma-camping the others, who just all quit or move server. After a while the winners get bored because now they are 10:1 and start quitting themselves. This phenomenon was so bad on some pure PvP MMOs to take their 800K day 1 playerbase down to today's 5k...
Even in WoW I played on a server (Genjuros) where Alliance all quit at a certain point and despite the free migration option none was so stupid to return and the server basically died." ___________________________________
So you dislike that the losers in EvE can't run away. I view that as more incentive to win. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
464
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 16:26:00 -
[84] - Quote
Frederick Sanger wrote:In almost every ship you can choose to maximize your damage or maximize your survivability. It's no different in a Hulk. Stop trying to have your cake and eat it too.
How about we make it more rewarding to those miners who properly fit their hulks and are not afk at the expense of those who afk mine and bot in hulks with characters who have zero fitting skills? Oh wait, we are. You're welcome. Mining/afk mining/botting are all the same now? Thanks for the heads up! I get it now.
All this Hulkageddon stuff is *ALTRUISM*...
You might be saying "you're welcome" - but whats really coming out is "I'm an idiot".
You're welcome...
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1751
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 16:33:00 -
[85] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
No, tanking my Hulk is the option to avoid basic gank. The medium ganker (5 catalysts) will probably get all but the "concept super tank, mines for squat" Hulk setups. And, all it takes to completely make it unsafe and unviable is Mittani popping a finger and decide to pay 100M per ganked tanked Hulk. Because he can and it's fun.
5 Catalysts will lose money ganking it. Nobody can stop people willing to lose money to kill you.
If he does that, how will that change the Hulk or Suicide Ganking Mechanics? Because those are the things you're asking to change. If CCP were offering the bounty, that would be different.
And yes, if the bounty increased, you would have to adapt to changed player activity. EvE is all about players adapting to other player's activities.
This is not a "Fair-PvP" game. This is a Sandbox PvP game. People can try to change other people''s behaviors by any means they wish. Bribery is fine, IG threats (gonna WarDec you) is fine, Market manip is fine. Any attempt to make someone do/not-do something (within the Magic Bubble) is just fine. Any collusion is also fine. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1106
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 16:58:00 -
[86] - Quote
Frederick Sanger wrote: In almost every ship you can choose to maximize your damage or maximize your survivability. It's no different in a Hulk. Stop trying to have your cake and eat it too.
How about we make it more rewarding to those miners who properly fit their hulks and are not afk at the expense of those who afk mine and bot in hulks with characters who have zero fitting skills? Oh wait, we are. You're welcome.
In almost every ship you can choose to go all tank, all gank or an healthy compromise.
Let's see a quick example off a category of ships considered outdated and weak: cruisers.
On one Rupture you have 5 (five) lows and 3 mids.
A fun and effective RvB supercheap AC fit can include a plate AND a DC AND a gyrostab AND 1 EANM and another mod like Energized Explosive Membrane. It will still fit a point and web and MWD.
But hey I could totally tweak it to become an artillery platform. Or I could remove the explosive mod and add another gyrostab. Or I could shield tank it (for whatever reasons).
With a Mack you can choose to have a sh!t, a weaker sh!t or a marginally sturdier sh!t. With an Hulk it's better, but once again the options are much more limited than other ships. The lows are so few, you either get yield or tank with a black and white, no freedom option.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1107
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 17:08:00 -
[87] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
300m (Hulk Price) worth of Covetors DRASTICALLY outmines a Hulk. That's what I meant by cost effective.
You forgot to factor in the pilots costs in the equation. How does it look after you do so? How does the cost per pilot show?
RubyPorto wrote: Then don't use it if the better performance isn't worth it in your situation. Plenty of other people find that the Hulks benefits are worth the additional cost
Citation?
RubyPorto wrote: CCP knows how much Isk is available in the game. 20b ISK is not a lot of money (given that there are Modules that expensive). If CCP did not anticipate mass scale market manip, they should have learned their lesson from the T2 BPO Cartels, BoB, and the many smaller market manips that happen every day.
CCP and "learn"? Textbook oxymoron.
RubyPorto wrote: So fleet battles are DDOS attacks? GSF very politely told CCP that they expected a fleet fight in Jita. CCP reinforced Jita's node just like for any other fleet fight.
No GSF is much more subtle than that. BoB were just "straight classic power players" including the attitude. GSF are slowly infiltrating, changing and disrupting and manipulating and using media for a grand agenda. While you can call this sandbox I call this "takeover". When the 30 old enters the sand box and kicks all the children who don't obey away then the sandbox is not an hospitable place to be.
RubyPorto wrote: So you dislike that the losers in EvE can't run away. I view that as more incentive to win.
Like for above, you did not understand, my English is probably the culprit.
Losers can run away, they ran with their wallets.
I dislike. No. I HATE that the heavy handed, oppressive climate under GSF dominion will end up cracking the game. I have lived this too many times, I don't want to see it once again. Not on EvE! This is not about some sodding Hulk but about slowly strangling the game! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1107
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 17:14:00 -
[88] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: This is not a "Fair-PvP" game. This is a Sandbox PvP game. People can try to change other people''s behaviors by any means they wish. Bribery is fine, IG threats (gonna WarDec you) is fine, Market manip is fine. Any attempt to make someone do/not-do something (within the Magic Bubble) is just fine. Any collusion is also fine.
No this is not a Sandbox PvP game. They are using factors external of the game (media manipulation, CSM infiltration... well this last time it failed but because of a screwup) plus "stretched to the extreme limit" game deficiencies.
The latter, is like taking a car without electronic limiter and go full gass for 4 hours. Technically speaking it's meant to do it, in practice it will break. How can one intelligent like you are, not see it? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1755
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 17:33:00 -
[89] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:RubyPorto wrote:
300m (Hulk Price) worth of Covetors DRASTICALLY outmines a Hulk. That's what I meant by cost effective.
You forgot to factor in the pilots costs in the equation. How does it look after you do so? How does the cost per pilot show?
I intentionally did so. That is exactly the point of T2, it allows Isk Poor, Labor rich groups to compete with Isk Rich, Labor Poor groups. If your particular ratio of Isk Richness to Labor Poorness doesn't support T2, you don't use it. Pilot costs are a subjective comparison of your particular ratio.
Quote:RubyPorto wrote: Then don't use it if the better performance isn't worth it in your situation. Plenty of other people find that the Hulks benefits are worth the additional cost
Citation?
People are still mining in them, thus they find the benefits worth the cost (or they haven't thought of it and will cry if it dies).
Quote: CCP and "learn"? Textbook oxymoron.
They're getting better.
No GSF is much more subtle than that. BoB were just "straight classic power players" including the attitude. GSF are slowly infiltrating, changing and disrupting and manipulating and using media for a grand agenda. While you can call this sandbox I call this "takeover". When the 30 old enters the sand box and kicks all the children who don't obey away then the sandbox is not an hospitable place to be.
EvE is not a Hospitable place to be. I think that's in the official guide.
Anyway, Goonswarm doesn't have any advantage that they didn't earn in game. They're just psychotically persistent and resilient.
Like for above, you did not understand, my English is probably the culprit.
Losers can run away, they ran with their wallets.
I dislike. No. I HATE that the heavy handed, oppressive climate under GSF dominion will end up cracking the game. I have lived this too many time, I don't want to see it once again. Not on EvE!
You're ESL? Holy Crap, I honestly didn't know that.
Anyway, I would be shocked if GSF's actions actually will cause permanent damage to the game. The Ice interdictions and burn Jita haven't put any noticeable dent in the PCU stats.
Besides, shutting them down would have a chilling effect on the freedom we have to have fun in EvE. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
1755
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 17:40:00 -
[90] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:RubyPorto wrote: This is not a "Fair-PvP" game. This is a Sandbox PvP game. People can try to change other people''s behaviors by any means they wish. Bribery is fine, IG threats (gonna WarDec you) is fine, Market manip is fine. Any attempt to make someone do/not-do something (within the Magic Bubble) is just fine. Any collusion is also fine.
No this is not a Sandbox PvP game. They are using factors external of the game (media manipulation, CSM infiltration... well this last time it failed but because of a screwup) plus "stretched to the extreme limit" game deficiencies. The latter, is like taking a car without electronic limiter and go full gass for 4 hours. Technically speaking it's meant to do it, in practice it will break. How can one intelligent like you are, not see it?
Media Manipulation? EvE has Always had a rich metagame.
CSM infiltration? They have a lot of players, those players voted. That's not infiltration, it's democracy.
OTEC is an example of pegging something broken till it really breaks. But in the Years since Tech's been broken, CCP has constantly failed to fix it. OTEC is probably the best chance to get CCP to fix it.
HAG is partly to improve OTEC, but other than that, it's not breaking anything game mechanically. It is forcing miners to change their habits for the first time since Barges and the Orca were released, and that's why there's so much hubbub.
As far as the Game as a whole, this kind of thing is the coolest part of the whole experience. Knowing that a relatively small group can affect such a large world for whatever end they wish. Single-Shard, Player Driven-áSandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special. |
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