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Keno Skir
Vectis Covert Solutions
154
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Posted - 2012.08.02 11:38:00 -
[91] - Quote
sweetrock wrote:There is no feesable way to protect from gankers, there are items such as ship scanners which tells gankers what your ships fitting is.
If your flying a small ship they will gank you in something small, if your in a freighter and they want to kill you, they come in numbers with larger ships.
You CANNOT defend yourself from gankers what so ever!
The reality is, gank ships are cheap and usuialy flown by alts ot people with massive amounts of isk in thier wallet, they try once and fail, they will come back again on principle and get the job done.
Well, not learned much in 5 months now have we?
Try TANKING the weakling mining ship instead of just fitting it for max payload. While i agree if you tanked like hell they could still take you out with several battleships or t3 b-cruisers, it would be at a MASSIVE loss to them and they will almost certainly not bother. Additionally next time Making sure you dont use stupidly expensive / faction mods is also a DEFENCE against ganks.
Or, and i realise this is extreme : Mine whilst aligned, like miners should in lowsec anyway. Then soon as u see a tornado u warp out instant like. This does however require you to be actually at the computer, which is where i expect the plan to fail for most miners
I always kinda feel if someone gets ganked they sould have been paying more attention, and generally could have done much more to prevent it. When i fly a really expensive ship my mind is on the job generally, seems obvious The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1540
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Posted - 2012.08.02 11:47:00 -
[92] - Quote
Eron Relentless wrote:How to deal with gankers? Put as much pressure on CCP to reinforce mining ships and hasten CONCORD as possible. Which will to some extent happen in the next patch and hopefully in the following one aswell and the following one and the following one.
CCP is a company and EVE is a product they make money out of. Easy ganking leads to a lot of unhappy paying customers which eventually leads to a lot of cancelled subscriptions which leads do unhappy CCP. The more new players are among the cancelled subs the worst, because new players are much more interesting from business POV than a bitter ganking vet ready to drop the game anyway because of 1547859 other issues he constantly complains about.
Ganking is a part time hobby of in fact a relatively small group of bored fags trying to have fun by taking away someone elses fun or to manipulate the market by making mining harder and thus minerals => ships and mods more expensive. The latter being just another way of preventing less nerdy people with less playtime, less experience and less SP under their belts from having fun => leaving the game => less money for CCP.
Thus, gankers are not really a profitable customer segment for CCP - small in numbers, ready to switch to other, albeit less manly and skillzor activites, such as shooting at a PvP fitted ship, bored and bitter anyway - likely close to the end of their customer cycle.
CCP needs to pay their tech and their people and this is done by expanding customer base and selling more PLEX => through new customerseager to speed up their space careers, not through bored 0.0 *** alliances sitting on trillions of ISK hating everyone and everything in and about the game as they show us on the forums in daily bases. Therefore, CCP will more and more cater to the needs of average Joes who hate gankers and pay money to watch their shiny ships. Because its the new and middle aged pilots (who pay for their accounts and PvP/PvE with real money) who pay their bills and keep the business going, not a bunch of fat goons trying to control EVE out of their grandmothers basements.
Suck it up, leetboi failures. Time is on our side.
heh i think i counted 15 fallacies in your post there
"new players" - check "grandmothers basements" - check
lol EVE Online: Trammel (or NGE) |
Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
116
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Posted - 2012.08.02 11:59:00 -
[93] - Quote
Nice work, +1 |
Aprudena Gist
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.08.02 12:04:00 -
[94] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Spikeflach wrote:how did the 15 second gank the ganker window all the sudden become 20 seconds? Because it depends on where you are and how you're counting. I just decided to go test it for myself and came to the conclusion that pretty much all numbers thrown around are correctGǪ in their own way. In a 1.0 system, the fight is over in anywhere between 2 and 13 seconds, depending on where CONCORD is at the moment (7 seconds if it's a GÇ£cleanGÇ¥ system). The actual destruction of the criminal happens after 17GÇô28 seconds, but that extra time is spend without being able to lock and shoot any target, without any drones, and without any cap. Some dexterous and well-timed cap-injecting might let you get off as many as 3 pulses of smartbombs in that period (but most likely it'll just be one or two). In a 0.7 system, the base response time has increased to 10 seconds (if you pre-spawn CONCORD, it's somewhere in the region of 6 seconds; if you herd CONCORD away from the attack spot, it's up to 16 seconds), and the same 15 seconds of the criminal being jammed/neuted applies. In a 0.5 system, the base time has increased to 18 seconds (pre-spawning CONCORD can reduce that to 9; herding CONCORD way adds another 6 seconds), and you're still looking at the same 15 seconds of criminal helplessness. So, at the very most, in a prepped 0.5 system an attack can go on for as long as 24 seconds before the criminal ship is locked out of the fight by CONCORD, and the ship will not actually be destroyed until after 39 seconds (but again, those extra 15 seconds can only be used to activate smartbombs). Without preparation, and with no highslots wasted on low-damage weapons, you only have to survive for less than 20 seconds. Oh, and the reason it takes 15 seconds for the ship to die is that the CONCORD cruisers are sillly-weak as far as damage goes: they deliver a combined alpha of 2,000 damage every 5 seconds, and with 15 seconds before the battleship finishes the job, they only get off 8,000 damage totalGǪ after that, the Police Commander sets your HP to zero so no amount of HP will save you. These numbers are mostly correct and are in line with ours but you dont quite get the "hearding" part. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1218
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 12:08:00 -
[95] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:If you are a new player you really have nothing to worry about.
Your gear will not be expensive enough to make ganking worth it.
false My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
59
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Posted - 2012.08.02 12:23:00 -
[96] - Quote
Best way to defend against ganking is to watch the gates and stations in system for gankers. Post a warning when you spot the gankers.
Gankers hate grinding sec status between ganks. Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
Keno Skir
Vectis Covert Solutions
154
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 13:37:00 -
[97] - Quote
Eron Relentless wrote:Suck it up, leetboi failures. Time is on our side.
Ultimate rubbish mate, and ironic how close you were to correct.. I think you will find that TIME is actually on the side of the vets here :) Easy space with instant police for criminals and no risk might make "new players" feel a little safer, but will lose players overall.
My reasoning is as follows :
Cocooning new players in a nice little safety web might make them tell their friends about EvE and as such new player retention will rise. However old player subs will fall, and with good reason. These people grew up and survived in conditions harsher than you see now and have become good players due to te struggle. They expect you to go through the same thing or it makes their struggle seem invalid, secondly while they experienced hardship for so long it taught them to be hard and they want the same for you.
Whether these figures cancel each other out is neither here nor there and not really my point. My point is that the struggle, the constant risk and the focus on the long game is what made EvE special. I'm not projecting my own preferences onto eve, im only a year or so in and saying what i see. It is this complex, almost exclusive nature of EvE that i believe attracts most fo its long term members. People who like something to obsess over, adults who need an MMO you can play while having a job and still be at the same level as someone else your age (essentially, not including oh so important player skillz).
I suggest that while there may be 3 new pilots ready to join a friendly game to every 1 sociopath eve-ite, i think it's fairly obvious which one is most likely to stay. You see if eve becomes safe and standard like every other MMO, you can expect a massive new player trial boost since all of a sudden it's accessible and not too scary to bother with. But these players will not stay, or at least are far less likely to. Conformist MMO players jump from MMO to MMO as they max skills / game gets tedious and repetitive and move on to another. Not so true of EvE's classic punter :)
The people who will really enjoy EvE as it is are lesser in number than all the "just got bored of wow and want next weeks thing" guys, but i really believe it is the smaller more specialized crew who are actually most likely to STAY.
Don't be fooled into thinking 2000 subs from new players are worth more than 1000 subs from vets, they aren't. Vets have a proven record of sticking with it. Purely by definition 99% of the other crowd will get bored and move on within a month when they find out they cant be ultra L33T in 30 days like they were in STAR ******* WARZ.
Sorry :D, kept it civil almost to the end :P
TL;DR : 2000 new player subs are worth less than 500 vet subs, since new players will generally quit after 2 months, and vets will keep paying till the end of eve :) Get your figures adjusted if you can :D The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
83
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Posted - 2012.08.02 13:59:00 -
[98] - Quote
Maddy Joringer wrote:Snow Axe wrote:As soon as the ganker shoots you in highsec, they get a GCC, which allows other players to shoot them for 15 minutes, meaning any player who is nearby that wants to shoot back at the ganker can go right ahead. CONCORD just prevents you from pre-emptively shooting at the ganker without having the same set of consequences they do when they gank. Any ganker which shoots me in highsec is gonna get blown up by concord or me .. Gankers are suicide squads.. the Trick is to preemptively attack them.... there is no point shooting a suicide bomber after he has blown himself up.... Hence.... the game mechanics favours the gankers too much and makes miners in high sec totally helpless.... CCP should fix this....
Well, most gankers become outlaws very quickly meaning you can shoot them any time. Once they start an attack they are also a viable target for the 20 odd seconds it takes for concord to show up. Currently 1 sebo cruiser can cause casual gankers quit a lot of angst just by ganking or even jamming them.
Or you could war dec them of course.
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
83
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Posted - 2012.08.02 14:02:00 -
[99] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Best way to defend against ganking is to watch the gates and stations in system for gankers. Post a warning when you spot the gankers.
Gankers hate grinding sec status between ganks.
Why would gankers need sec?
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Eron Relentless
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.08.02 14:06:00 -
[100] - Quote
Keno Skir: You have some points right. The bitter bored vets expect all the younger players to go through the same hardships as they did in every single MMO. They have the skills and the cash and the experience now and making it easier for the newcomers makes their "hard grinded awesomness" less uberleet and less valuable. Less things to brag about and that terrible, because "MMO pro careers" are all about bragging.
Its all up to CCP whether they want a fanclub minigame or whether they want to earn money. Ive been playing MMOs for over 12 years and the scenario is always the same, the new expansion is worst than the previous one, everything new is too easy, all the newbies are dumb and terrible, devs suck, nobody listens to their "pro community ideas", everything was better at the start blah blah blah.
Well you know what, they all GTFO eventually, regardless of whether the staff decides to newbiefy the game or not. They hate each other, they hate the game, they hate changes and most importantly, in EVE, they dont pay with real cash because theyre simply too rich to do so. Newbies, on the other hand, bring fresh real cash into the game.
And thats why the way to go for more cash is to make the game more newbie friendly. Ganking will be harder, space will be gradually safer and uberawesome superleet veterans will be needed and seen less and less. New generation will grow, turn into veterans and follow the same road eventually. It is happening and it will keep on happening and all the bitter ramble wont stp it. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4378
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Posted - 2012.08.02 14:24:00 -
[101] - Quote
Maddy Joringer wrote:How do u defend against Gankers ? am a new player and i honestly got no clue....
It's fairly easy. I am a 6 year veteran and I have never been successfully ganked.
The first and by far the most important defence is never to go AFK while you're in space, and most especially dont ever AFK autopilot anything more valuable than an empty noobships in a clone with no implants. If you need to go AFK, dock up. If it's an emergency, close the client to log off.
The second most important defence is situational awareness. Look out for suspicious activity like groups of minmatar ships (high-alpha artillery is a favourite gank weapon) clustering at gates or station undocks. Remember that every pilot in the system who is not a confirmed friendly (ie: in your corp or alliance) is a possible threat. Treat them as actively hostile and you will not go far wrong.
The third defence is correctly fitting your ships. Always fit some kind of tank. Get in the habit of activating your hardeners and damage controls. Top up your shields when warping away from that mission you just completed.
Also very important is choosing the right ship for the job. Do you need to haul the tags and meta 4 loot from a week of successful missioning? Well don't put your half a billion ISK worth of goodies in a paper-thin, incredibly slow cheap T1 hauler. If you can use a Blockade Runner, get one of those - they're virtually invulnerable in hi-sec, and pretty safe in lo-sec if you pilot them properly.
Can't use a BR? Then use a supertanked Drake (2 Large shield extenders, 2 invulns, EM hardener, Therm hardeners, Damage control, 3 power diags, 3 shield extender rigs) to move the high value density stuff, and just use the Badger II for trash loot. But seriously: skill up for blockade runners. They're awesome, and you can fit 3 giant secure containers in a fully expanded Viator or Prorator.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4378
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 14:29:00 -
[102] - Quote
Actually I would say that the best defence against ganking is learning to do it yourself. You'll quickly become aware of what makes victims attractive and vulnerable targets. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1781
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 15:37:00 -
[103] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: All of these options have advantages and disadvantages. All of them will work. Not all of them are perfect.
If ALL of these options do not work for you, please describe your very special situation, and I'll come up with a custom solution or call you names. You know, depending...
You ganked Pipa Porto. Custom solution is? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1781
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 15:43:00 -
[104] - Quote
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:The problem is, compared to Eves usual timescales to achieve anything (eg. months and years to train skills), sec status has little to no meaning. The whole outlaw thing is being invalidated by the short period of time it takes an experienced player to work back from public enemy to good standing. Feels like 2 hours of community work for murder: its still somewhat of a consequence, but it just doesn't feel appropriate.
Why would you ever grind sec status back up? Those alts suffer no consequence since their "inside a ship" life lasts from when they take a ship in the middle of space (no NPC shoot at them) to when they press F1 to shoot. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1781
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 16:03:00 -
[105] - Quote
Eron Relentless wrote:How to deal with gankers? Put as much pressure on CCP to reinforce mining ships and hasten CONCORD as possible. Which will to some extent happen in the next patch and hopefully in the following one aswell and the following one and the following one.
CCP is a company and EVE is a product they make money out of. Easy ganking leads to a lot of unhappy paying customers which eventually leads to a lot of cancelled subscriptions which leads do unhappy CCP. The more new players are among the cancelled subs the worst, because new players are much more interesting from business POV than a bitter ganking vet ready to drop the game anyway because of 1547859 other issues he constantly complains about.
Ganking is a part time hobby of in fact a relatively small group of bored fags trying to have fun by taking away someone elses fun or to manipulate the market by making mining harder and thus minerals => ships and mods more expensive. The latter being just another way of preventing less nerdy people with less playtime, less experience and less SP under their belts from having fun => leaving the game => less money for CCP.
I don't agree with doing that. Ganking is a mini profession like ninja looting and scamming.
They are nasty but they make EvE... EvE. They also constantly remind you how the world has plenty of nutsacks but that's just didactic value.
What should happen is to bring meaningful :consequences: in the Game Of Consequences.
Bounties are not a factor as they can be circumvented. Sec status is a non factor as well, as it's circumvented by just reshipping in space. Ship loss is a non factor because the whole point of the miniprofession is to make a profit despite the ship loss, plus added casualty tears.
Maybe the new Crimewatch will be an answer to the above. Maybe they should just assign kill rights not on the gank alt but on the top SP character in the basket of accounts the ganker uses, identified by sub payment data. That would cause some hilarious :consequences:
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
baltec1
Bat Country
1783
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 16:12:00 -
[106] - Quote
CCP Masterplan wrote:Nice blog on the CONCORD response-time experiment. How long did it take you to work through all those test cases, considering you can do one at most every 15 minutes (without the parallel possibilities of using alts)?
Well we solved that by using a lot of pilots |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8854
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 16:13:00 -
[107] - Quote
CCP Masterplan wrote:Nice blog on the CONCORD response-time experiment. How long did it take you to work through all those test cases, considering you can do one at most every 15 minutes (without the parallel possibilities of using alts)? Nice necroGǪ
Oh, it took the better part of an evening to do, even though I had help on some. Surprisingly, the part that added the most time was finding systems with a nice spread, but which were still close enough together that you could travel between them in a reasonable amount of time (travel being an excellent thing to spend the GCC timer on if you do it in a pod) and to find and/or plant stuff in those systems that could be used to trigger CONCORD. It seems that the sisi mirrors don't copy things like POSes and anchored cans, which would otherwise be handy and ubiquitous, so for many of the systems, I had to go on a second (or third) visit to either drop jetcans or to anchor something that the other character(s) could shoot. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8854
|
Posted - 2012.08.02 16:15:00 -
[108] - Quote
CCP Masterplan wrote:Nice blog on the CONCORD response-time experiment. How long did it take you to work through all those test cases, considering you can do one at most every 15 minutes (without the parallel possibilities of using alts)? Nice necroGǪ
Oh, it took the better part of an evening to do, even though I had help on some. Surprisingly, the part that added the most time was finding systems with a nice spread, but which were still close enough together that you could travel between them in a reasonable amount of time (travel being an excellent thing to spend the GCC timer on if you do it in a pod) and to find and/or plant stuff in those systems that could be used to trigger CONCORD. It seems that the sisi mirrors don't copy things like POSes and anchored cans, which would otherwise be handy and ubiquitous, so for many of the systems, I had to go on a second (or third) visit to either drop jetcans or to anchor something that the other character(s) could shoot.
Aprudena Gist wrote:These numbers are mostly correct and are in line with ours but you dont quite get the "hearding" part. Doesn't surprise me GÇö it would have taken another two evenings to re-test everything rigorously with CONCORD constantly being spawned in two locations for every test. If you have any more precise data to leak, I'd be happy to amend itGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Betrinna Cantis
28
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Posted - 2012.08.02 16:47:00 -
[109] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:RubyPorto wrote:(Gank alts tend not to have all those pesky tanking skills you need to have at 5 to get 3800 EHP on an untanked Dessie) Slaves... And only the stupid people would shoot your pod because they would get Concorded just for doing that. shakes head.... So much learning you need......I will be watching C&P for your post about losing a pod in Hi sec because someone "stupid" blew you up for lolz. Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares..... |
Keno Skir
Vectis Covert Solutions
154
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 00:40:00 -
[110] - Quote
Eron Relentless wrote:Well you know what, they all GTFO eventually, regardless of whether the staff decides to newbiefy the game or not. They hate each other, they hate the game, they hate changes and most importantly, in EVE, they dont pay with real cash because theyre simply too rich to do so. Newbies, on the other hand, bring fresh real cash into the game.
Every time a rich player uses a plex instead of real money, the plex they used was at some point bought for real money. By running several accounts to the new players 1 they are contributing a larger sum of money per person to CCP.
It is a misconception to think only those who pay with cash are giving cash to CCP.
The Apostle : I want a kangeroo Captain Kirk : Silly Austrians Sarmatiko : Let me guess: you're from US? Captain Kirk : Yeah Riverside IA - why? |
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Johan Civire
Dirty Curse inc.
66
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 00:53:00 -
[111] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:If you are a new player you really have nothing to worry about.
Your gear will not be expensive enough to make ganking worth it.
WTF is this post you mad or what a well fit frigate can easly make the ganker a bad day. Noob perhaps? dude? |
March rabbit
R.I.P. Legion Red Alliance
238
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 09:37:00 -
[112] - Quote
Maddy Joringer wrote:some goonswarm member wrote: Hint: you have no clue how Eve works
Next time give a reply with some proper information rather than cheap shots.. am looking for a proper discussion and not a mud slinging contest well. he was right about your clue about Eve.... No offence but you should know that there very few members of Goonswarm worth discussion with.
This is how Eve works |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
607
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 09:41:00 -
[113] - Quote
Johan Civire wrote:Frying Doom wrote:If you are a new player you really have nothing to worry about.
Your gear will not be expensive enough to make ganking worth it. WTF is this post you mad or what a well fit frigate can easly make the ganker a bad day. Noob perhaps? dude?
He mostly meant, as a new player, you aren't ******** enough yet, for the goons to want to gank you. Past that other players do cargo scan checks to see how much your fit is worth, then if it is enough to make profit on, suicide gank ya. Past that, people are bored and try to pick any gank they can get. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
60
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 10:21:00 -
[114] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Best way to defend against ganking is to watch the gates and stations in system for gankers. Post a warning when you spot the gankers.
Gankers hate grinding sec status between ganks. Why would gankers need sec?
Give it a while maybe by December or so you will find out why they might want sec. They do not need it now but that will change. Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8873
|
Posted - 2012.08.03 11:12:00 -
[115] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Give it a while maybe by December or so you will find out why they might want sec. They do not need it now but that will change. Nah.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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