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Trazis
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Posted - 2009.09.04 07:58:00 -
[1]
On a dreadnought in a fleet fight I was thinking would it be pointless for me to active tank my naglfar or would it be better to buffer all resists (shield and armor) above 82% or have my resists lower and be able to run reps for 2 or so mins I was thinking that a local tank would be pointless compared to the massive dps coming in from enemy dps and that your only chance for survival would be carrier support and the best way to utilize that would be with high resists and trimarks any thoughts am i nuts am i gunna get poped ideas and thoughts please
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Lord Haur
Amarr StarHunt
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Posted - 2009.09.04 08:38:00 -
[2]
Depends what you're doing with it.
TBH, why are you asking on the forums and not asking your corp/alliance?
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Adacia Calla
Minmatar 1st Steps Academy Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.04 09:02:00 -
[3]
Ask your Corp/Alliance how they expect everyone to be setup.
If they have Logistics + Carriers spider tanking everyone, then you're set. If you're not so fortunate, then you're stuck with local repping.
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tiviirulez
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Posted - 2009.09.04 09:29:00 -
[4]
Iirc sieged dreads cannot be remote repped. Then this would be a rather stupid question.
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Mystical Dawn
Minmatar Nomadic Angels
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Posted - 2009.09.04 09:49:00 -
[5]
Depends on the fight, if it's huge with 1200 at local - buffer tank it.
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Eli Porter
Amarr Altruism. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.09.04 10:18:00 -
[6]
It would be nice if someone did the number crunching so we could know approximately how many hostile dreads on the field makes it better to buffer a dread.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.09.04 11:56:00 -
[7]
Sieged dreadnoughts cannot be affected by any remote support.
[Aussie players: join channel ANZAC] |
Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.09.04 12:03:00 -
[8]
Trazis, due to the massive amount of bonuses that a Siege Module gives you, buffering your ship is likely an unwise idea.
Not unheard of though. I've heard of buffer tanked dreads, but it seems sort of silly to me. There isn't a 50,000mm Reinforced Steel Plate, and you're not going to get awesome bonuses from Energized Regenerative Membranes, so I'd assume tanking that damage is the best way to go.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.09.04 12:32:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Seishi Maru on 04/09/2009 12:33:19 Depends a lot on situations. BAshign pos you need your local rep.
Large capital slugfest.. you going to die.. no matter what. really.. even the buffer will give you only 20 seconds more of life.
Some rare situations might compensate to have a good local rep on capital fights. For example you are hotdroping as part of a sniping group on enemies with clearly inferior range. The ammount of enemy dreads that will still be able to hit you is small (but some will still, because always some people do not follow the same exact layout as the rest of fleet). And if you are facing only few dreads firing at you.. well local tank might be enough to resist them at that range until fight ends.
But if you hotdroping at 20 km from enemy.. well 3 Gyro 2 BCU and 3 sensor boosters will help you more since will at least give you more killmails before you die :P the rest you but some buffer to give you a few extra volleys of life time. But it WON"T SAVE YOU!
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Caldari Citizen4714
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Posted - 2009.09.04 12:55:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Caldari Citizen4714 on 04/09/2009 12:57:23
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Trazis, due to the massive amount of bonuses that a Siege Module gives you, buffering your ship is likely an unwise idea.
Not unheard of though. I've heard of buffer tanked dreads, but it seems sort of silly to me. There isn't a 50,000mm Reinforced Steel Plate, and you're not going to get awesome bonuses from Energized Regenerative Membranes, so I'd assume tanking that damage is the best way to go.
[Revelation, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Sensor Booster II
Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Multifrequency XL Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Multifrequency XL Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Multifrequency XL Siege Module I
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
You can actually get it to 3.9M EHP if you use all bulkheads.
Edit: pasted the wrong setup - Support DISBANDING the Alliance CCP Renamed at the Alliance's Request |
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.09.04 14:25:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 04/09/2009 14:25:45
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Trazis, due to the massive amount of bonuses that a Siege Module gives you, buffering your ship is likely an unwise idea.
I'm sorry but that is wrong on every level.
Because a dread can not be RR'd in siege, and because its tank can never be enough to 'tank' the stupid amount of damage it will face in a capital fight, the only good thing to do with a dread is to fit it for DPS and buffer, with a sensor booster and on rev and moros some cap recharge to sustain guns. On a phoenix, a good fit looks like this.
Anything else is a waste.
169 dead caps caught on video |
Trustworthy Joe
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Posted - 2009.09.04 14:36:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714 Edited by: Caldari Citizen4714 on 04/09/2009 12:57:23
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Trazis, due to the massive amount of bonuses that a Siege Module gives you, buffering your ship is likely an unwise idea.
Not unheard of though. I've heard of buffer tanked dreads, but it seems sort of silly to me. There isn't a 50,000mm Reinforced Steel Plate, and you're not going to get awesome bonuses from Energized Regenerative Membranes, so I'd assume tanking that damage is the best way to go.
[Revelation, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Sensor Booster II
Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Multifrequency XL Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Multifrequency XL Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Multifrequency XL Siege Module I
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
You can actually get it to 3.9M EHP if you use all bulkheads.
Edit: pasted the wrong setup
i was about to come in here ranting about how structure tanks are epic in capfights, but then he beat me to it.
afaik, moros has an even larger buffer, then the rev, then the nag. _______________________ Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
want a sig? thats great! post it in response to my posts!
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.04 14:46:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714
[Revelation, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Sensor Booster II
Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Multifrequency XL Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Multifrequency XL Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Multifrequency XL Siege Module I
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
You can actually get it to 3.9M EHP if you use all bulkheads.
REAL MAN DETECTED!
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Trazis
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Posted - 2009.09.04 18:40:00 -
[14]
I'm sorry I'm totally new to teh cap scene I wasn't aware that sieged dreads couldn't be remote repped if thats the case I don't really see a reason for carriers sure they could remote rep each other but then the're just there remote repping with no dps because they need the triage to be truly effective at cap repping. Maybe i have this wrong as i know little about cap fights but in a large cap fight what's the role of carriers if its not to keep the damage dealers alive I had always assumed it was similar to a logistics ship amongst battleships and cruisers but what good does that do if it cant rep the bs.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.04 19:00:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Crackzilla on 04/09/2009 19:00:31
Originally by: Trazis I don't really see a reason for carriers
There isn't much reason for carriers. Which is why dreads are preferred over carriers. I'd think nearly every dread pilot can fly a carrier but not all carrier pilots have yet skilled up for dreads.
Easy to find enough carriers. Never have enough dreads.
Originally by: Trazis
they need the triage to be truly effective at cap repping.
triage is a suicide module. afaik you can't be repped while in triage (as triage is a form of siege). So you enter triage as a last resort to help some others.
Originally by: Trazis what's the role of carriers if its not to keep the damage dealers alive
To rep dreads once they leave siege and to rep any bs in the fleet. And to cause massive drone lag (overview filters have helped this).
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Arous Drephius
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Posted - 2009.09.04 19:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Trazis
they need the triage to be truly effective at cap repping.
triage is a suicide module. afaik you can't be repped while in triage (as triage is a form of siege). So you enter triage as a last resort to help some others.
Not always. For example if you're in a small-ish gang then you can enter triage, rep your fleet, and tank the enemy for long enough for your fleet to kill them and exit triage. In a (big enough) cap fight triage is normally death though.
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Zeerover
DeadSpace Exploration and Investigations
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Posted - 2009.09.04 19:19:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sokratesz On a phoenix, a good fit looks like this.
Anything else is a waste.
I like that fit, and suggested one quite similar to that one on this board a few months ago (after starting out with just a huge shield buffer), but seemingly people don't like it and I cannot understand why.
This fit below gets over 3 million EHP and tanks 15000 dps for two and a half minutes. Does over 100k in volley damage, with 5000 dps. And the fittings cost less than the Dread itself, but can be done cheaper without the CN invu fields and T2 rigs, losing about 600k of EHP - it's 25% better for about a billion ISK, cost benefit of that is debatable.
[Phoenix, buffer tank] Damage Control II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Gallente Navy Sensor Booster Gallente Navy Sensor Booster Caldari Navy Heat Dissipation Field Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Capital Shield Booster I
Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Guristas Rift Torpedo I Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Guristas Rift Torpedo I Citadel Torpedo Launcher I, Guristas Rift Torpedo I Siege Module I
Large Core Defence Field Extender II Large Core Defence Field Extender II Large Core Defence Field Extender II
Berserker SW-900 x5 Hobgoblin II x5
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Spaztick
Terminal Impact
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Posted - 2009.09.04 19:26:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Trazis I'm sorry I'm totally new to teh cap scene I wasn't aware that sieged dreads couldn't be remote repped if thats the case I don't really see a reason for carriers sure they could remote rep each other but then the're just there remote repping with no dps because they need the triage to be truly effective at cap repping. Maybe i have this wrong as i know little about cap fights but in a large cap fight what's the role of carriers if its not to keep the damage dealers alive I had always assumed it was similar to a logistics ship amongst battleships and cruisers but what good does that do if it cant rep the bs.
These:
........... ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
use lots of them.
Carriers are there for when the dreads exit siege and need to be remote repped, or for repairing the support fleet of battleships. Triage is that much useful with battleships because of the lock time bonus. In capital fights it's suicide much like a sieged dread, but support vs support a triage carrier is an ace in the hole.
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Cambarus
Clearly Compensating
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Posted - 2009.09.04 19:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Eli Porter It would be nice if someone did the number crunching so we could know approximately how many hostile dreads on the field makes it better to buffer a dread.
Just for ****s and giggles I'll probably run the numbers on all the dreads and toss them into my thread about dreadnoughts (I should probably bump the damn thing anyway), but here are the numbers for a moros:
Setup 1 has 4 cap rechargers, 1 amarr navy EANM,1 DCU, 1 capital rep and trimarks (I'll be using a 3 damage mod setup to compare, maxed skills and no implants/bonuses)
EHP:2.04mil Tank:5470 (caps out in 5 minutes but the odds of lasting that long are slim)
Compared with a buffer fit, in which I used 3 invulns and a photon scattering field, 1 DCU 3 bulkheads and extender rigs (it gives slightly more EHP than an armor/shield buffer, which in turn gives more than just an armor buffer, though I'm just here number crunching not arguing the viability of such a setup) I get about 3.01million EHP with no real sustained tank (there's a few hundred dps tanked but only at peak shield recharge so we'll ignore it)
The difference in ehp between the 2 setups is 0.97mil. Therefore we need to take the tank ofthe first setup and figure out how long it would take to rep that much EHP: 970,000/5470= 177 seconds. So if a cap can stay on the field for 177 seconds after being shot at by a hostile fleet an active tank is better than a buffer.
So how many dreads does it take to kill a buffer tanked dread in 177 seconds? (we use the buffer tanked version because at the 177 second mark the active tank will have repped up that same amount of EHP)
3,010,000damage/177seconds = 17005 DPS Dreads pump out somewhere around 4kDPS each (keep in mind that that's a HUGE estimate, there are so many fail skills pilots and failfit dreads out there that this number could easily be cut in half, this assumes most skills at IV or V, and at least 3 damage mods)
TBH the numbers I got there are kind of scary. 5 dreads are in theory enough to make an active tank less useful than a buffer, and in decent sized fleet fights even with lag and player incompetence you can bet your ass that there's going to be more than 5 dreads shooting the primary.
TLDR; 5 dreads can easily put out enough dps on 1 dread target to make a full on buffer tank (in this case the moros, sporting shield and hull buffers for maximum EHP) better than an active tank. |
Eli Porter
Amarr Altruism. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.09.04 20:36:00 -
[20]
Seeing as you can overload a repper for a good few minutes, you should take that into account. Probably adds another dread or two to the threshold.
There's also the question of what range the battle will be, as more range=less incoming DPS naturally.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.04 20:39:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Cambarus 5 dreads are in theory enough
These numbers have been run before and the answer was about the same.
For any fleet that can field more than a few dreads a buffer tank is a better option.
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Trazis
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Posted - 2009.09.04 22:32:00 -
[22]
On my naglfar I was able to get just over 4m ehp i ersonaly would think that that is better in a fleet fight
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