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Zarks
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Posted - 2004.10.19 13:05:00 -
[1]
I wonder why these ships got a 225s recharge time. Both the Harpy and the Enyo got a recharge time of 150s and base cap of 275. Vengeance got a base cap of 300 and retribution 350. This means the amarr ships got a 50% longer recharge time but only 9% and 27% more total cap.
Vengeance got a 10% cap recharge bonus per skill level which is good but the fact that it is worse from the start only makes this slightly better then for example the enyo after the skills are weighed in.
Anyone got a nice explanation in a balance point of view for me? especially since the amarr ships should be cap monsters?
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Zarks
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Posted - 2004.10.19 13:05:00 -
[2]
I wonder why these ships got a 225s recharge time. Both the Harpy and the Enyo got a recharge time of 150s and base cap of 275. Vengeance got a base cap of 300 and retribution 350. This means the amarr ships got a 50% longer recharge time but only 9% and 27% more total cap.
Vengeance got a 10% cap recharge bonus per skill level which is good but the fact that it is worse from the start only makes this slightly better then for example the enyo after the skills are weighed in.
Anyone got a nice explanation in a balance point of view for me? especially since the amarr ships should be cap monsters?
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2004.10.19 13:28:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Zarks Anyone got a nice explanation in a balance point of view for me? especially since the amarr ships should be cap monsters?
Nope. There is no explanation.
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2004.10.19 13:28:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Zarks Anyone got a nice explanation in a balance point of view for me? especially since the amarr ships should be cap monsters?
Nope. There is no explanation.
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2004.10.19 13:34:00 -
[5]
why should amarrian ships be cap monsters? theyre weapons take less cap (once bonuses are factored in) and armour tanking uses less cap than shield tanking.
or do you mean by RP reasons they should be? in which case, why arnt caldari ships light and fast, with high-tech stuff? why arnt minmater ships really fast with next to no armour/structure but low sig and decent shields? why arnt gallente... i dunno, whatever they should be :P
incidently, its worth noting that in early beta (think it was early, i wasent there but this is what i'm told) amarrian ships were gods. an apocalypse could easily take down any other BS, and it would take at least 2 BSes to bring down an apoc. this was reflected in cost, so it was thought to be fair... then they realised that this meant everyone would fly apocs. so they changed it. basically, just because it makes sense in RP doesnt mean that it makes sense for the game.
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2004.10.19 13:34:00 -
[6]
why should amarrian ships be cap monsters? theyre weapons take less cap (once bonuses are factored in) and armour tanking uses less cap than shield tanking.
or do you mean by RP reasons they should be? in which case, why arnt caldari ships light and fast, with high-tech stuff? why arnt minmater ships really fast with next to no armour/structure but low sig and decent shields? why arnt gallente... i dunno, whatever they should be :P
incidently, its worth noting that in early beta (think it was early, i wasent there but this is what i'm told) amarrian ships were gods. an apocalypse could easily take down any other BS, and it would take at least 2 BSes to bring down an apoc. this was reflected in cost, so it was thought to be fair... then they realised that this meant everyone would fly apocs. so they changed it. basically, just because it makes sense in RP doesnt mean that it makes sense for the game.
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Zarks
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Posted - 2004.10.19 13:38:00 -
[7]
It¦s not a RP thingy, I wonder from a balance point of view. Why shouldn¦t the amarr ships have the same recharge time as the other races?
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Zarks
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Posted - 2004.10.19 13:38:00 -
[8]
It¦s not a RP thingy, I wonder from a balance point of view. Why shouldn¦t the amarr ships have the same recharge time as the other races?
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2004.10.19 13:54:00 -
[9]
like i said, theyre weapons and tanking take less cap than the other races.
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Shimatu
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Posted - 2004.10.19 13:54:00 -
[10]
like i said, theyre weapons and tanking take less cap than the other races.
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:00:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Shimatu like i said, theyre weapons and tanking take less cap than the other races.
In that case I ask that CCP changes the cap recharge to compare with other races then replaces the cap use bonus for a damage or tracking bonus, maybe even a boost to armour repairing. By your argument that would make things fair.
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:00:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shimatu like i said, theyre weapons and tanking take less cap than the other races.
In that case I ask that CCP changes the cap recharge to compare with other races then replaces the cap use bonus for a damage or tracking bonus, maybe even a boost to armour repairing. By your argument that would make things fair.
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Tas Devil
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:07:00 -
[13]
My 2 cents...
And I know its a negative contribution ... but unfortunatly only negative thoughts come to mind when thinking of assault ships...
The assault ships have not been thought through properly by CCP or balanced or tested or thought through in relation to the rest of the eve fleet...its quick cheap content added for the sake of adding content...
Most if not all of them are useless for PVP some of their stats make no sense at all and they lack a definite advantage which makes then usefull in a PVP role...
The reply that they come in handy for rat hunting is silly...in my opinion ...I'd much rather be in a cruiser that I can insure for its real value to hunt rats then a 40M super frigate that insures for 3M...
I'm open to criticism of this view...but the fact you don't see anyone in them doing any PVP might explain something .... (the Wolf seems to be an exception of this no PVP role theory of mine)
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Tas Devil
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:07:00 -
[14]
My 2 cents...
And I know its a negative contribution ... but unfortunatly only negative thoughts come to mind when thinking of assault ships...
The assault ships have not been thought through properly by CCP or balanced or tested or thought through in relation to the rest of the eve fleet...its quick cheap content added for the sake of adding content...
Most if not all of them are useless for PVP some of their stats make no sense at all and they lack a definite advantage which makes then usefull in a PVP role...
The reply that they come in handy for rat hunting is silly...in my opinion ...I'd much rather be in a cruiser that I can insure for its real value to hunt rats then a 40M super frigate that insures for 3M...
I'm open to criticism of this view...but the fact you don't see anyone in them doing any PVP might explain something .... (the Wolf seems to be an exception of this no PVP role theory of mine)
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:25:00 -
[15]
It's stupid.
Look at the battleships, the apoc has more cap then the other tier 2 bs and yet they all have the same cap recharge time.
Look at the cruisers though. The maller has 100 more cap then the thorax but pays for that with a 37 second higher recharge time.
What is the point of giving something more cap and then taxing it with a higher recharge? It's so pointless and just takes away something that could be special. You might as well just give them all the same amount of cap and then have the same recharge time. The way it is now it's like were being lied to.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:25:00 -
[16]
It's stupid.
Look at the battleships, the apoc has more cap then the other tier 2 bs and yet they all have the same cap recharge time.
Look at the cruisers though. The maller has 100 more cap then the thorax but pays for that with a 37 second higher recharge time.
What is the point of giving something more cap and then taxing it with a higher recharge? It's so pointless and just takes away something that could be special. You might as well just give them all the same amount of cap and then have the same recharge time. The way it is now it's like were being lied to.
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fras
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:34:00 -
[17]
I've found that all of the assault frigates are used surprisingly frequently in pvp. I agree with you that a cruiser is a more sensible option - but then ppl have isk to burn.
As for the cap issue, I dunno - it's not to do with the non linear recharge curve is it?
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fras
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:34:00 -
[18]
I've found that all of the assault frigates are used surprisingly frequently in pvp. I agree with you that a cruiser is a more sensible option - but then ppl have isk to burn.
As for the cap issue, I dunno - it's not to do with the non linear recharge curve is it?
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tenp1
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:38:00 -
[19]
Their weapons don't use less cap than other races, if they do then I must be using magic tech 10 projectiles that use fairy dust instead of cap
The only reason I can see is that the larger base cap and lower recharge gives the same average recharge rate as lower cap and higher recharge. This is proved in a way when I tank the retribution.
High - 4xMedium Pulse II Mid - Small Battery II Low - Small Armour Repairer II, True sanshas Energised thermal mebrane, 2xCap relays and Heat sink II
This all runs fine and can run the repairer and guns constant. However if I replace the Small battery II with a cap recharger II, even though I have a higher recharge rate, I cannot run the above setup constant.
This is the only reason I can see, tho chances are I'm wrong and it's more subtle than that.
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tenp1
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Posted - 2004.10.19 14:38:00 -
[20]
Their weapons don't use less cap than other races, if they do then I must be using magic tech 10 projectiles that use fairy dust instead of cap
The only reason I can see is that the larger base cap and lower recharge gives the same average recharge rate as lower cap and higher recharge. This is proved in a way when I tank the retribution.
High - 4xMedium Pulse II Mid - Small Battery II Low - Small Armour Repairer II, True sanshas Energised thermal mebrane, 2xCap relays and Heat sink II
This all runs fine and can run the repairer and guns constant. However if I replace the Small battery II with a cap recharger II, even though I have a higher recharge rate, I cannot run the above setup constant.
This is the only reason I can see, tho chances are I'm wrong and it's more subtle than that.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.10.19 15:17:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Shimatu why should amarrian ships be cap monsters? theyre weapons take less cap (once bonuses are factored in)
Err.
Minmatar use next to no cap, caldari use no cap.
With controlled burst V
125mm II's use 1.83 cap Medium Pulse II's use 1.11 cap
So we use an astonishing 0.72 less cap per shot with our uber bonus while an enyo gets 25% damage.
Hmm, 0.72 less cap use or 25% damage, i wonder which one is better.
Also, don't forget, the enyo gets a 5% tracking per level.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.10.19 15:17:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Shimatu why should amarrian ships be cap monsters? theyre weapons take less cap (once bonuses are factored in)
Err.
Minmatar use next to no cap, caldari use no cap.
With controlled burst V
125mm II's use 1.83 cap Medium Pulse II's use 1.11 cap
So we use an astonishing 0.72 less cap per shot with our uber bonus while an enyo gets 25% damage.
Hmm, 0.72 less cap use or 25% damage, i wonder which one is better.
Also, don't forget, the enyo gets a 5% tracking per level.
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Gaiam
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Posted - 2004.10.19 15:49:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Zarks
Anyone got a nice explanation in a balance point of view for me? especially since the amarr ships should be cap monsters?
yah ill explain to you, you guys are all looking for something to complain about so youll just argue.
enyos 275 cap with 150 recharge is the same cap profile as retributions 350 cap at 225 seconds recharge time. when you factor in that a 5% bonus to retribution cap size and charge is more of a bonus than to enyo, then youll see retribution has the second best cap of all assaults.
want to take a guess as to what assault has better cap than retribution?
thats right! vengeance. very good.
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Gaiam
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Posted - 2004.10.19 15:49:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Zarks
Anyone got a nice explanation in a balance point of view for me? especially since the amarr ships should be cap monsters?
yah ill explain to you, you guys are all looking for something to complain about so youll just argue.
enyos 275 cap with 150 recharge is the same cap profile as retributions 350 cap at 225 seconds recharge time. when you factor in that a 5% bonus to retribution cap size and charge is more of a bonus than to enyo, then youll see retribution has the second best cap of all assaults.
want to take a guess as to what assault has better cap than retribution?
thats right! vengeance. very good.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.10.19 16:12:00 -
[25]
Take a look at heavy assaults, they all have the same cap recharge yet amarr ships have more cap.
Looks like they get it right, sometimes. ________________________________________________________
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.10.19 16:12:00 -
[26]
Take a look at heavy assaults, they all have the same cap recharge yet amarr ships have more cap.
Looks like they get it right, sometimes. ________________________________________________________
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Flammius
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Posted - 2004.10.20 17:20:00 -
[27]
Quote: Anyone got a nice explanation in a balance point of view for me? especially since the amarr ships should be cap monsters?
No, no idea why CCP decided to gimp these ships - I thought excessive nerfing was reserverd for minmatar ships. One medslot... good idea... :(
The only aussault frigs worth getting IMO are the Gallente and Caldari ones. _________________________ Scientist, manufacturer, trader
Selling Co-processor II, Tachyon Beam Laser II, Modulated Strip Miner II Buying Tech 2 BPOs (check my bio ingame) |
Flammius
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Posted - 2004.10.20 17:20:00 -
[28]
Quote: Anyone got a nice explanation in a balance point of view for me? especially since the amarr ships should be cap monsters?
No, no idea why CCP decided to gimp these ships - I thought excessive nerfing was reserverd for minmatar ships. One medslot... good idea... :(
The only aussault frigs worth getting IMO are the Gallente and Caldari ones. _________________________ Scientist, manufacturer, trader
Selling Co-processor II, Tachyon Beam Laser II, Modulated Strip Miner II Buying Tech 2 BPOs (check my bio ingame) |
Shintoko Akahoshi
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Posted - 2004.10.20 20:15:00 -
[29]
The cap on Amarr assault frigates does seem kinda bugged, though.
Compare the Vengeance to the Punisher. According to the Vengeances description, it should be getting twice the cap recharge bonus of the Punisher, yet I get much better cap recharge time in a Punisher than I do in a Vengeance.
There's no meaning to life when you cling only to common sense |
Shintoko Akahoshi
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Posted - 2004.10.20 20:15:00 -
[30]
The cap on Amarr assault frigates does seem kinda bugged, though.
Compare the Vengeance to the Punisher. According to the Vengeances description, it should be getting twice the cap recharge bonus of the Punisher, yet I get much better cap recharge time in a Punisher than I do in a Vengeance.
There's no meaning to life when you cling only to common sense |
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