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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 06:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much?
Simple suggestion: Take the character with the most SP and add 1 month's worth of SP on top of that. Now compress the time it takes to complete all skills to level V proportionately so that it equals that character's total training plus 1 month. After doing that give back the total SP lost in compressing all those skill times. Of course, you would do this for everyone.
Doing this will reduce everyone's training time without alienating those of the highest SP level.
I think this is an equitable suggestion and will help bring about a saner EVE.
Maybe it will help EVE out of beta a little bit too... |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 06:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything.
Did I suggest anyone train all the skills to level V, nope.
Was I implying such a thing, nope.
All I am after is to reduce the overall time it takes to train individual skills in general, not to train them all to level V.
I am suggesting training in EVE simply takes too long in general and that reducing that time overall without harming the highest SP players as an equitable solution.
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 06:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
No More Heroes wrote:But but but :endgame:
Look at the post above your's.
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 06:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Marcus Ichiro wrote:Training everything isn't the point.
I wasn't saying it is. Just that it takes too long overall.
Marcus Ichiro wrote:The point is that you're supposed to specialise.
Indeed, and this change would make that just a little quicker now wouldn't it. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 07:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:you are not supposed to be able to train everything
That is not the intention of my post.
Vera Algaert wrote:even if characters would reach the 18 years mark CCP would just add some new skills for another few years of training.
Or, they could compress the overall skill tree and add the new skills while refunding SP.
Vera Algaert wrote:on the gameplay side the rationale is that EVE is all about meaningful trade-offs and that forced specialization encourages cooperation between players.
The only real "specialization" that occurs in fleets nowadays is only if the fleet needs something in particular and that is always changing. This forces people to re-specialize into different ship types. The only other type of "specialization" occurs when you don't have the skills trained to fly what the fleet really needs and have to go with something less useful.
Vera Algaert wrote:on the financial side forced specialization encourages players to get their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, .... accounts - if I could train everything on my main in a realistic timeframe I wouldn't be paying to train 3 alts at the same time.
Indeed, there is the income factor I give you that. However, as the amount simultaneous accounts increases the ability to handle rapidly changing environments decreases. In the most intense and exciting situations (read: fun) it can becomes extremely difficult if near impossible to handle more than one account.
Although I do admit it is fun to watch multiboxers when things get intense. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Other than being a capital pilot (which we do not need more of) what takes so long to specialize for that such a drastic solution is needed?
It's not so much about specialization that I am concerned with, it's the re-specialization that can be a problem as is required in EVE. Things change and you have to adapt or you die, simple. I just want to make that a bit quicker so to allow for faster adapting and therefore faster change as well.
Also, think of the new people who join this game and see the huge amount of time it takes to get just about anywhere in EVE that is interesting in terms of skills. Quite a few people get turned off by the huge time investment that EVE can be in terms of training. Some of these people are perfectly willing to adapt to change and can, it's just that the time it takes to do so seems unreasonable to them.
Reducing the training time will have little effect on EVE overall, but it will make EVE a little less of time hog. I really don't see such a change as drastic as it really is not. Sure, there might be some upheaval immediately proceeding the change, but things will calm down fairly quickly as they always do.
Petrus Blackshell wrote:You are aware that level IV skills are a thing, and the gap between IV and V is easily covered by actual pilot skill, right?
Indeed, by why not actually have that skill at level V and maximize a given ships/module's potential. Skill is a major deciding factor in EVE and SP has little to do with that skill. Given such logic I don't see how reducing the training time overall will have much of a lasting negative impact. Such a change would make EVE less of a time grind and not much else. As you and others have put it individual skill is the real deciding factor in EVE not SP so lowering the overall training time isn't going to change things in EVE it just increases the quality of one's EVE gaming experience. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Yey, I'm halfway there.
Don't a change a thing.
Tal
Who cares, SP has got nothing to do with success in EVE so it wouldn't matter even if you would be finished training forever. True skill and experience are the makings of success in EVE and what makes it fun not SP.
Someone playing as long as you have would know already know this and would therefore know that training all the skills there are to train isn't the true EVE experience.
Reducing the time it takes to train all skills overall can only increase one's experience of EVE at a more rapid rate. It is this experience that is what makes EVE fun and I am all for more fun how about you?
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 08:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ivy Romanova wrote:no simply no No one should be great at EVERYTHING that provide the intensive for people to specialize and encourage teamplay instead of being an one man army
Having max SP would make you great at NOTHING. SP has nothing do with how great someone is at doing various things. Having max SP still wouldn't make you a one man army either as you will probably get blobbed
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 08:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gerald Taric wrote:Elzon1 wrote:The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much? This was the introductionary sentence of your OP, where i underlined the important part. The next part was a solution suggestion. If we understood you wrong, then the OP construction was wrong.
I don't think you are understanding my sentence structure incorrectly. Perhaps it is the assumptions about my frame of mind you made when reading such statements that were incorrect?
By saying saying 18+ yeas of training is a bit much I am logically implying that generally everything in the overall skill tree takes too long.
Gerald Taric wrote:Anyway.... I can just speak for myself: After one year of playing EVE i reached a skill state with my main character, which is rather satisfactionary. And i just took some skilltime to put it into a second charakter on the same account.
And if that "skill state" only took 6 months to attain would you be less satisfied or perhaps filled with rage about how little time it took. I am going to take a guess on that and so no.
Gerald Taric wrote:Therefore: No, the time is not too long.
Ah, then you would prefer it to be longer then? How about 50 years? 100 years?
See what I am getting at there? Making training take less time seems better than making it longer, no? Or did you want a 1,000 year training queue you glutton? |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Chribba wrote:18 years you say... that means I'm halfway there nice! Although last time I checked iirc it was 25+ years...
/c
Cool 25+ years even longer, doesn't change my argument.
And being halfway done doesn't mean anything in EVE so it does nothing for you to mention it.
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 08:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:How do you reduce the time it takes to train skills in general without reducing the time it takes to get to level 5?
You do reduce the time it takes to get to level 5 and I see no harm in that overall.
Mara Rinn wrote:Without increasing the multiplier for level 5, reducing training time will impact that 18 years figure.
I'm sure CCP can figure out the technical details, overall its just math. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:No I disagree : )
For one thing I'm not halfway there (except in time) as I have taken breaks and been lax with training sometimes. I like the skill system. You train for what you need and when your done move onto to something else. I like the fact it takes time, I also like the fact I don't have to grind skill points by killing 100 space bunnies.
I have lots of fun. Disagreeing with you doesn't remove the fun from the game. (actually it might add some)
Tal
"I like the skill system."
As do I and I didn't say otherwise.
"You train for what you need and when your done move onto to something else."
Yep, nothing wrong with that and it doesn't disagree with my argument.
"I like the fact it takes time, I also like the fact I don't have to grind skill points by killing 100 space bunnies."
Same here.
If you don't think it takes too long overall to train things in EVE then I guess you wouldn't mind it taking significantly longer than it already does.
You really don't seem to disagree with my argument overall. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote:Elzon1 wrote:Chribba wrote:18 years you say... that means I'm halfway there nice! Although last time I checked iirc it was 25+ years...
/c Cool 25+ years even longer, doesn't change my argument. And being halfway done doesn't mean anything in EVE so it does nothing for you to mention it. Do you know who you are so mindlessly flipping off there?
Indeed, the veld king and fervent supporter of all things EVE.
And I don't think what I said was flipping him off. I was merely voicing the argument overall SP count has little to do with how successful you are in EVE.
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Sure it means something, it means I'm halfway there. Although by the next patch CCP added more skills to make me only 1/4 of the way there so...
And what has that got to do with anything in EVE other than the skill tree itself? Nothing much in terms of success in EVE.
Chribba wrote:And tbh, when I got maxed on SiSi before, those 450m SP didn't make me jack better at PVP so I'm sorry to say, maxing out is NOT an end goal.
/c
Even you agree that SP count has little to do with success in EVE as I do.
At no point did I say maxing out is an end goal. It just takes to long overall to train and that includes all skills to level V.
You see in order for me to say training takes too long in EVE I have to say training everything overall takes too long.
I constructed my argument in a logical way and at the same time I drew out the assumption that people thought I wanted to traing everything to level V like a nub. People seem to be fighting an assumption and not the actual argument I am making.
Argument: Training takes too long.
Assumption with argument: "He thinks training makes him better, nub"
I am merely making the argument that training takes too long and I am not insinuating anything about training, just it's overall length.
If someone thinks training doesn't take too long I leave it up to them to come up with a reason outside of their opinion.
Shortening the overall training time can improve user experience and any argument to the contrary seems folly. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote:If SP has little relevance to your success in Eve it then makes no difference how long it takes to earn them.
Then why not just shorten it? Why waste time training when you could be having fun being blown up in that new ship now? |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:I just like it where it is, there is that peculiar sense of accomplishment (I don't know why) when you come to the end of a particularly long training skill.
Waiting as an accomplishment... strange opinion there. But hey, you could feel more accomplished if the overall training time in EVE was shortened according to your logic.
Talon SilverHawk wrote:I think several ppl have said that the returns for lvl 5 are marginal and its more efficient to go to lv l4 (Tippia has a link at the bottom of her sig) then train something else, so if you wanted to, you could take years off doing that.
Tal
Indeed and I would agree to that. But at no point did I say training to level 5 was a good idea.
There seems to be an assumption when someone says that training takes too long that they are attributing SP to skill or success in EVE. Let me assure you that I am not insinuating such a thing. I am merely making the argument that training overall in EVE takes too long and that shortening it may improve the user experience in EVE that's it.
Do you guys remember the old expression:
DonGÇÖt assume anything, it makes an GÇ£assGÇ¥ out of GÇ£uGÇ¥ and GÇ£me.GÇ¥ |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
Chribba wrote:I don't think it takes too long, it gives you a goal to go towards rather than getting there quickly. As getting to the goal quickly would shorten the lifetime of the game play.
So, if I were to finish training everything to level V the game would be over for me... I THINK NOT!!!
If I were to stop training this very second would that stop me from playing the game? NO!!! Training has got nothing to do with whether I continue playing the game or how I play it. The only thing it affects is what experiences are not available to someone yet.
The point of shortening the time it takes to train in EVE is to increase the speed with which you gain access to different possible experiences.
Chribba wrote:Plus it gives a sense of accomplishment knowing you have put the effort and energy into getting into a Titan, or using Cruise Missiles at its absolute best. But that's just my view of things.
Waiting as an accomplishment... strange opinion there. But hey, you could feel more accomplished if the overall training time in EVE was shortened according to your logic.
Yes, I will start copying and pasting if I see the same old arguments and opinions pop up. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote:Because that is one of the things what separates Eve Online from the silly little clone MMOs for kiddies.
And shortening the training time from 25+ years to about 10 years is going to turn EVE into a theme park MMO.
I don't think so. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:TL;DR: OP wants instant gratification, and does not yet understand the gratification of long term goals, where even the patience to wait that long is a challenge.
If you read the post you would realize I still want everyone to wait about a decade if they want everything to level V.
The reason I did that was that if the time to train was reduced below what people already took the time to train then they would be alienated. I don't want veterans to be alienated in such a way, I just want to help improve EVE for everyone. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Sobach wrote:by your logic, why not just take it to the next step and eliminate SP entirely? Let's just abolish the entire training system and max everyone's character out, and when new skills are introduced to the game, everyone automatically gets them at lv.5 too! This way you won't "waste" ANY time training and could be having fun blowing things up!
Hell, while we're at it, let's make all the ships and modules free too, that way people won't have to make isk to afford ships, and thus they'll be able to spend even more time having fun blowing things up! We can call this the CoD: Elzon1 Pwnz0r expansion!
or you can just htfu or gtfo of eve, either makes no difference to me.
Remember I said the highest SP character plus 1 month?
I didn't say I wanted to do away with the training system altogether in the beginning post now did I?
You mad bro? |
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 11:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
Sobach wrote:Just calling out the bullshit as I see them Like I said, what I said was taking things a step further with your logic. You're basically asking for things easier/faster to get to, without providing any real reason other than "because it's good! and it's good because I said so!"
Remember in the beginning post I made strict limits to the general concept preventing any missteps (ex. a step further).
What reason was there for getting rid of the learning skills? Because it's good? Because CCP said so?
Moves like that can improve things in EVE for everyone.
Oh and remember removing the learning skills actually shortened the overall training time? BLASPHEMY right?
Oh and they reimbursed the SP when they did get rid of them, remember?
They did it once, they can do it once more now can't they? |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 12:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
Gerald Taric wrote:Elzon1 wrote:[...]Or did you want a 1,000 year training queue you glutton? "you glutton" = overeater, chowhound, greedy pig, If you want to discuss, do it in constructive way. Try again without insult. Until then i remain with " NO" like many others here.
Whoops sorry about that. I have gotten a little tired and forgot to include the other part of that last word ... for punishment...
In other words I didn't simply mean glutton. I meant to say "glutton for punishment" the idiom and instead I just typed "glutton".
My apologies for not correcting that mistake.
I respect that you are of the opinion that the overall training length should stay the same or increase.
Of course, I just don't see good reason for the training length to exceed a decade.
I will probably talk to the CSM about this and get their take on the matter in terms of the future of EVE. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 12:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:You realise that there are characters in game who are (if I recall the max SP potential correctly) more than halfway through this yes?
Indeed.
Jacob Holland wrote:You realise that people like Dr Caymus were apparently running out of industrial and science skills at the time neural remaps came in yes?
Yes.
Jacob Holland wrote:You realise that, as a miner, you can reach the peak of your training and have to search for something else in around six months; as a broader Industrialist in a couple of years...?
Yeah.
Jacob Holland wrote:Have you looked at the threads from various characters looking for viable training routes because they feel they've trained everything they want to by 60 or 80 million SPs?
Yes, I have read a few threads like that.
Did you actually read my post? It doesn't seem like you did. None of what you posted causes any problems with what I suggested in my post.
Just in case you didn't read my post I shall copy it here for you:
Elzon1 wrote: The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much?
Simple suggestion: Take the character with the most SP and add 1 month's worth of SP on top of that. Now compress the time it takes to complete all skills to level V proportionately so that it equals that character's total training plus 1 month. After doing that give back the total SP lost in compressing all those skill times. Of course, you would do this for everyone.
Doing this will reduce everyone's training time without alienating those of the highest SP level.
I think this is an equitable suggestion and will help bring about a saner EVE.
Maybe it will help EVE out of beta a little bit too...
All I am proposing is that the max training time be set to what the highest SP character has plus 1 month.
After compressing all the skills down proportionately players are reimbursed SP accordingly.
After the SP reimbursement the highest SP player would have only 1 month left of training to do and then would run out of things to train.
Whenever a new skill is to be added all other skills get compressed proportionately a little bit and the new skill is shimmied in. Of course all players will be reimbursed their SP from the compression. If the player in question was previously maxed out then all he/she has to do is apply the reimbursed to the new skill and once again the player in question will be maxed out.
All I want is for CCP to establish a maximum training time and stick with it. The maximum of course decided by the max SP character so as to not alienate veterans. |
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