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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
3645
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Posted - 2012.06.05 09:27:00 -
[61] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:If someone thinks training doesn't take too long I leave it up to them to come up with a reason outside of their opinion. I don't think it takes too long, it gives you a goal to go towards rather than getting there quickly. As getting to the goal quickly would shorten the lifetime of the game play.
Plus it gives a sense of accomplishment knowing you have put the effort and energy into getting into a Titan, or using Cruise Missiles at its absolute best. But that's just my view of things.
/c
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Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
138
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Posted - 2012.06.05 09:29:00 -
[62] - Quote
EvE skill system is perfect. Only people that don't like it are the theme parkers. If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
974
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Posted - 2012.06.05 09:31:00 -
[63] - Quote
Why not just leave it alone?
Who cares that it takes 18-25+ man-years to get L5 in EVERYTHING that's available? I mean, seriously, I like the fact that after however many years I've been playing now (5? 6?), that I'm still not good at PvP (skills or player) ... though took the time to get spreadsheets 5, and can supply other people to fight on my behalf (they get cheap ships that they can't build, I get not shot at ... works pretty well).
Most of the "highend" stuff is pretty pointless after L3 (T2 manufacturing skills come to mind) anyway. |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum Alliance 99000802
635
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Posted - 2012.06.05 09:39:00 -
[64] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:EvE skill system is perfect. Only people that don't like it are the theme parkers.
Its not bad but not really perfect. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 09:47:00 -
[65] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:I just like it where it is, there is that peculiar sense of accomplishment (I don't know why) when you come to the end of a particularly long training skill.
Waiting as an accomplishment... strange opinion there. But hey, you could feel more accomplished if the overall training time in EVE was shortened according to your logic.
Talon SilverHawk wrote:I think several ppl have said that the returns for lvl 5 are marginal and its more efficient to go to lv l4 (Tippia has a link at the bottom of her sig) then train something else, so if you wanted to, you could take years off doing that.
Tal
Indeed and I would agree to that. But at no point did I say training to level 5 was a good idea.
There seems to be an assumption when someone says that training takes too long that they are attributing SP to skill or success in EVE. Let me assure you that I am not insinuating such a thing. I am merely making the argument that training overall in EVE takes too long and that shortening it may improve the user experience in EVE that's it.
Do you guys remember the old expression:
DonGÇÖt assume anything, it makes an GÇ£assGÇ¥ out of GÇ£uGÇ¥ and GÇ£me.GÇ¥ |
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
89
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Posted - 2012.06.05 10:06:00 -
[66] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Elzon1 wrote:If someone thinks training doesn't take too long I leave it up to them to come up with a reason outside of their opinion. I don't think it takes too long, it gives you a goal to go towards rather than getting there quickly. As getting to the goal quickly would shorten the lifetime of the game play. Plus it gives a sense of accomplishment knowing you have put the effort and energy into getting into a Titan, or using Cruise Missiles at its absolute best. But that's just my view of things. /c
OP this here sums things up nicely.
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 10:21:00 -
[67] - Quote
Chribba wrote:I don't think it takes too long, it gives you a goal to go towards rather than getting there quickly. As getting to the goal quickly would shorten the lifetime of the game play.
So, if I were to finish training everything to level V the game would be over for me... I THINK NOT!!!
If I were to stop training this very second would that stop me from playing the game? NO!!! Training has got nothing to do with whether I continue playing the game or how I play it. The only thing it affects is what experiences are not available to someone yet.
The point of shortening the time it takes to train in EVE is to increase the speed with which you gain access to different possible experiences.
Chribba wrote:Plus it gives a sense of accomplishment knowing you have put the effort and energy into getting into a Titan, or using Cruise Missiles at its absolute best. But that's just my view of things.
Waiting as an accomplishment... strange opinion there. But hey, you could feel more accomplished if the overall training time in EVE was shortened according to your logic.
Yes, I will start copying and pasting if I see the same old arguments and opinions pop up. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
789
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Posted - 2012.06.05 10:23:00 -
[68] - Quote
TL;DR: OP wants instant gratification, and does not yet understand the gratification of long term goals, where even the patience to wait that long is a challenge. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Sobach
Fourth Circle Total Comfort
37
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Posted - 2012.06.05 10:25:00 -
[69] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:ModeratedToSilence wrote:If SP has little relevance to your success in Eve it then makes no difference how long it takes to earn them. Then why not just shorten it? Why waste time training when you could be having fun being blown up in that new ship now?
by your logic, why not just take it to the next step and eliminate SP entirely? Let's just abolish the entire training system and max everyone's character out, and when new skills are introduced to the game, everyone automatically gets them at lv.5 too! This way you won't "waste" ANY time training and could be having fun blowing things up!
Hell, while we're at it, let's make all the ships and modules free too, that way people won't have to make isk to afford ships, and thus they'll be able to spend even more time having fun blowing things up! We can call this the CoD: Elzon1 Pwnz0r expansion!
or you can just htfu or gtfo of eve, either makes no difference to me. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
333
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Posted - 2012.06.05 10:29:00 -
[70] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:I just like it where it is, there is that peculiar sense of accomplishment (I don't know why) when you come to the end of a particularly long training skill. Waiting as an accomplishment... strange opinion there. But hey, you could feel more accomplished if the overall training time in EVE was shortened according to your logic. Talon SilverHawk wrote:I think several ppl have said that the returns for lvl 5 are marginal and its more efficient to go to lv l4 (Tippia has a link at the bottom of her sig) then train something else, so if you wanted to, you could take years off doing that.
Tal
Indeed and I would agree to that. But at no point did I say training to level 5 was a good idea. There seems to be an assumption when someone says that training takes too long that they are attributing SP to skill or success in EVE. Let me assure you that I am not insinuating such a thing. I am merely making the argument that training overall in EVE takes too long and that shortening it may improve the user experience in EVE that's it. Do you guys remember the old expression: DonGÇÖt assume anything, it makes an GÇ£assGÇ¥ out of GÇ£uGÇ¥ and GÇ£me.GÇ¥
No just u, (joke in a non trolling way)
Tal |
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 10:29:00 -
[71] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote:Because that is one of the things what separates Eve Online from the silly little clone MMOs for kiddies.
And shortening the training time from 25+ years to about 10 years is going to turn EVE into a theme park MMO.
I don't think so. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 10:33:00 -
[72] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:TL;DR: OP wants instant gratification, and does not yet understand the gratification of long term goals, where even the patience to wait that long is a challenge.
If you read the post you would realize I still want everyone to wait about a decade if they want everything to level V.
The reason I did that was that if the time to train was reduced below what people already took the time to train then they would be alienated. I don't want veterans to be alienated in such a way, I just want to help improve EVE for everyone. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
974
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Posted - 2012.06.05 10:34:00 -
[73] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:ModeratedToSilence wrote:Because that is one of the things what separates Eve Online from the silly little clone MMOs for kiddies.
And shortening the training time from 25+ years to about 10 years is going to turn EVE into a theme park MMO. I don't think so.
probably not,
but then you're gonna be whining that 10 years is too long ... and then someone will whine that n years is too long... and so on ...
There's honestly no reason to change it -- I mean, seriously, there's always something new for your toon to learn (hell, same thing happens day to day ...) |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 10:38:00 -
[74] - Quote
Sobach wrote:by your logic, why not just take it to the next step and eliminate SP entirely? Let's just abolish the entire training system and max everyone's character out, and when new skills are introduced to the game, everyone automatically gets them at lv.5 too! This way you won't "waste" ANY time training and could be having fun blowing things up!
Hell, while we're at it, let's make all the ships and modules free too, that way people won't have to make isk to afford ships, and thus they'll be able to spend even more time having fun blowing things up! We can call this the CoD: Elzon1 Pwnz0r expansion!
or you can just htfu or gtfo of eve, either makes no difference to me.
Remember I said the highest SP character plus 1 month?
I didn't say I wanted to do away with the training system altogether in the beginning post now did I?
You mad bro? |
Mallak Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx
167
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Posted - 2012.06.05 10:42:00 -
[75] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much?
Simple suggestion: Take the character with the most SP and add 1 month's worth of SP on top of that. Now compress the time it takes to complete all skills to level V proportionately so that it equals that character's total training plus 1 month. After doing that give back the total SP lost in compressing all those skill times. Of course, you would do this for everyone.
Doing this will reduce everyone's training time without alienating those of the highest SP level.
I think this is an equitable suggestion and will help bring about a saner EVE.
Maybe it will help EVE out of beta a little bit too...
There is no way to respond to this is a reasonable manner, so I'll just go with....
PFFFT HAHAHAHAHAHA
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Sobach
Fourth Circle Total Comfort
37
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Posted - 2012.06.05 10:46:00 -
[76] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Remember I said the highest SP character plus 1 month?
I didn't say I wanted to do away with the training system altogether in the beginning post now did I?
You mad bro?
Just calling out the bullshit as I see them
Like I said, what I said was taking things a step further with your logic. You're basically asking for things easier/faster to get to, without providing any real reason other than "because it's good! and it's good because I said so!" |
Gealbhan
Used Shuttle Sales Representative
168
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Posted - 2012.06.05 10:47:00 -
[77] - Quote
Skill system is fine, it's not our fault your ADD wants to jump around training everything. |
Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
662
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Posted - 2012.06.05 10:57:00 -
[78] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote: All I am after is to reduce the overall time it takes to train individual skills in general.
No. - [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
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Posted - 2012.06.05 11:05:00 -
[79] - Quote
Sobach wrote:Just calling out the bullshit as I see them Like I said, what I said was taking things a step further with your logic. You're basically asking for things easier/faster to get to, without providing any real reason other than "because it's good! and it's good because I said so!"
Remember in the beginning post I made strict limits to the general concept preventing any missteps (ex. a step further).
What reason was there for getting rid of the learning skills? Because it's good? Because CCP said so?
Moves like that can improve things in EVE for everyone.
Oh and remember removing the learning skills actually shortened the overall training time? BLASPHEMY right?
Oh and they reimbursed the SP when they did get rid of them, remember?
They did it once, they can do it once more now can't they? |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
314
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Posted - 2012.06.05 11:05:00 -
[80] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Gerald Taric wrote:Therefore: No, the time is not too long. Ah, then you would prefer it to be longer then? How about 50 years? 100 years? See what I am getting at there? Making training take less time seems better than making it longer, no? Or did you want a 1,000 year training queue you glutton?
That is, quite frankly, one of the most idiotic comments I've seen on here. No-one else here is complaining about training taking too long, which is why we do not think it needs reducing in anyway, this does not mean we feel it needs to be increased.
Quit making ridiculous statements and actually listen to what some people with an IQ above 100 have been saying to you. I think it was Brooks that explained it best. Training times are such that it forces people to attain some semblance of capability in one area of the game at a time before allowing them to move on, as per his example, when moving from Cruiser class to Battleship class.
Stupid idea is poorly thought through and stupid. Do not want, would not vote for. 0/10. Don't try again. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
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Luis Graca
33
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Posted - 2012.06.05 11:06:00 -
[81] - Quote
Ciar Meara wrote:Elzon1 wrote: All I am after is to reduce the overall time it takes to train individual skills in general.
No.
And again No This is not a single player game to train individual skills and if you skilled the wrong skills it's very simple **** HAPPENS i for example can fly and have a hulk but don't use it for at least 2 years CCP SUCKS |
Lipbite
Express Hauler
57
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Posted - 2012.06.05 11:08:00 -
[82] - Quote
This is perfect business model where new subscribers have to pay for a year (or two) long subscription to get decent pilot (compared to 9-15 days character leveling time in SWTOR or Rift) +
this model support status quo where old subscribers are superior to new pilots. So every older subscriber will tell you it's perfect having toons with 20+ millions SP in engineering, navigation, electronics, etc. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
790
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Posted - 2012.06.05 11:09:00 -
[83] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:TL;DR: OP wants instant gratification, and does not yet understand the gratification of long term goals, where even the patience to wait that long is a challenge. If you read the post you would realize I still want everyone to wait about a decade if they want everything to level V. The reason I did that was that if the time to train was reduced below what people already took the time to train then they would be alienated. I don't want veterans to be alienated in such a way, I just want to help improve EVE for everyone. I read your post, but you are talking about roughly halving training time. Thats huge, and would alienate the vets because you just made it so that a raw noob can have everything in the time it took them to get halfway there. More than that, as pointed out, alot of those skills are completely useless outside of niche situations, which means that with your plan my 36 mil SP would be able to get into a perfectly trained supercap in just a few months, instead of years. I am not supercap ready, not should I be with such a small pool of SP and play time under my belt.
You want to be able to do stuff like that ASAP, and fail to realize that for larger ships its more than SP, or skill, or even knowledge to be able to use them right. You need UNDERSTANDING. And the fact that you want to shorten these times means you lack the understanding to properly utilize the things you want to use fast.
The only 'experiences' that a new player is locked out of due to SP are flying those very large ships, and they should be til they have the experience and knowledge to understand how they work, and how they impact the game.
You can buy such a character, but you still need an understanding of the game(or a bot) to make the kind of isk needed to buy such a character. You can see proof of this frequently, with things like a gyrofit erebus, or a mining carrier going down all the time. Those are people who fail to understand their ships, and came by them way before they were ready. Luckily, they are a very small percentage of such pilots, and it should stay that way.
Edit: typo Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Luis Graca
33
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Posted - 2012.06.05 11:12:00 -
[84] - Quote
Lipbite wrote:This is perfect business model where new subscribers have to pay for a year (or two) long subscription to get decent pilot (compared to 9-15 days character leveling time in SWTOR or Rift) +
this model support status quo where old subscribers are superior to new pilots. So every older subscriber will tell you it's perfect having toons with 20+ millions SP in engineering, navigation, electronics, etc.
This is not true
Just because you don't know how to do it doesn't mean you can't do it CCP SUCKS |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
790
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Posted - 2012.06.05 11:15:00 -
[85] - Quote
Lipbite wrote:This is perfect business model where new subscribers have to pay for a year (or two) long subscription to get decent pilot (compared to 9-15 days character leveling time in SWTOR or Rift) +
this model support status quo where old subscribers are superior to new pilots. So every older subscriber will tell you it's perfect having toons with 20+ millions SP in engineering, navigation, electronics, etc. You can have perfect skills in a frigate in a very very short amount of time, quite able to compete with any pilot in the game, and a frigate is more than capable of holding its own against a bigger ship, in the hands of a smart pilot.
My first kill was taking down a myrmidon with an incursus(hint, shoot his drones first) Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Presidente Gallente
Dark-Rising
27
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Posted - 2012.06.05 11:15:00 -
[86] - Quote
Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything.
THIS!
When you come to +90m SP specialized on eg. Gallente in my case you don't think about skilling and how much it takes anymore. If you would do you are in the wrong game.
Why is EVE so awesome (and scary)? Because the effort to get (to) something ingame is very close to RL mechanics: learn, work, pay the bills, better skills, better job, more income, more toys, more dreams, more experience... more relaxed. |
Sister Lumi
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2012.06.05 11:19:00 -
[87] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote: Argument: Training takes too long.
"Too" (long) is not an argument, it is your opinion which you would need to back up with reasons or evidence in order form an argument.
As it is, we all can just declare our opinion "Training doesn't take too long" as you presented nothing to discuss about.
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Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
314
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Posted - 2012.06.05 11:22:00 -
[88] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Sobach wrote:Just calling out the bullshit as I see them Like I said, what I said was taking things a step further with your logic. You're basically asking for things easier/faster to get to, without providing any real reason other than "because it's good! and it's good because I said so!" Remember in the beginning post I made strict limits to the general concept preventing any missteps (ex. a step further). What reason was there for getting rid of the learning skills? Because it's good? Because CCP said so? Moves like that can improve things in EVE for everyone. Oh and remember removing the learning skills actually shortened the overall training time? BLASPHEMY right? Oh and they reimbursed the SP when they did get rid of them, remember? They did it once, they can do it once more now can't they?
They removed the Learning Skills for one very good reason. They were pointless, much like your posts. Everyone was better off without them. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
lanyaie
419
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Posted - 2012.06.05 11:23:00 -
[89] - Quote
I'm going to make this short and to the point:
NO. I dont post often, but when I do i'm probably trolling you Currently offering 100% legit hulkageddon security sponsored by the mittani, send 50m to me and 50m to him |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
49
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Posted - 2012.06.05 11:29:00 -
[90] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much? You realise that there are characters in game who are (if I recall the max SP potential correctly) more than halfway through this yes?
You realise that people like Dr Caymus were apparently running out of industrial and science skills at the time neural remaps came in yes?
You realise that, as a miner, you can reach the peak of your training and have to search for something else in around six months; as a broader Industrialist in a couple of years...?
Have you looked at the threads from various characters looking for viable training routes because they feel they've trained everything they want to by 60 or 80 million SPs? |
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