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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 06:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much?
Simple suggestion: Take the character with the most SP and add 1 month's worth of SP on top of that. Now compress the time it takes to complete all skills to level V proportionately so that it equals that character's total training plus 1 month. After doing that give back the total SP lost in compressing all those skill times. Of course, you would do this for everyone.
Doing this will reduce everyone's training time without alienating those of the highest SP level.
I think this is an equitable suggestion and will help bring about a saner EVE.
Maybe it will help EVE out of beta a little bit too... |
Martin0
Maximum-Overload M-A-T-R-I-X Allianz
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 06:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
404
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 06:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
But but but :endgame: . |
Marcus Ichiro
Kif Korp
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 06:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Training everything isn't the point. The point is that you're supposed to specialise. |
Pak Narhoo
Knights of Kador
535
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 06:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much?
Simple suggestion: snipp.
Simple suggestion: why don't you make like a tree and get out of here?
Who needs television when you have EVE? EVE drama, best drama. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
186
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 06:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
you are not supposed to be able to train everything - even if characters would reach the 18 years mark CCP would just add some new skills for another few years of training.
on the gameplay side the rationale is that EVE is all about meaningful trade-offs and that forced specialization encourages cooperation between players.
on the financial side forced specialization encourages players to get their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, .... accounts - if I could train everything on my main in a realistic timeframe I wouldn't be paying to train 3 alts at the same time. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 06:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything.
Did I suggest anyone train all the skills to level V, nope.
Was I implying such a thing, nope.
All I am after is to reduce the overall time it takes to train individual skills in general, not to train them all to level V.
I am suggesting training in EVE simply takes too long in general and that reducing that time overall without harming the highest SP players as an equitable solution.
|
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
240
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 06:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. This basically.
Choose your path carefully.
Time CAN pass quicker for you though. Train Binge Drinking to at least level 3 and just watch that training queue skip forward! EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 06:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
No More Heroes wrote:But but but :endgame:
Look at the post above your's.
|
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
518
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 06:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
As others have said. You will never reach the "level" cap. There are other games for that. |
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 06:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Marcus Ichiro wrote:Training everything isn't the point.
I wasn't saying it is. Just that it takes too long overall.
Marcus Ichiro wrote:The point is that you're supposed to specialise.
Indeed, and this change would make that just a little quicker now wouldn't it. |
Tallon Sylph
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Scam pubbies. Use your ill gotten isk to buy a variety of characters with all the skills you need. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
1197
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Indeed, and this change would make that just a little quicker now wouldn't it. Other than being a capital pilot (which we do not need more of) what takes so long to specialize for that such a drastic solution is needed?
You have not explained why this change is needed or why the current system is bad, other than "18 years is too long to be able to do absolutely everything with absolutely perfect skills".
You are aware that level IV skills are a thing, and the gap between IV and V is easily covered by actual pilot skill, right? Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
788
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
Skill training time doesn't need to be reduced. EVE is a game about setting LONG TERM goals. Most people I know have the next 2 years of training already planned out.
Those of us who have ADD are at a significant disadvantage in this game, simply because it is not a place for short attention spans. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Gerald Taric
Adamantium Industry
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. exactly THAT !
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote:you are not supposed to be able to train everything
That is not the intention of my post.
Vera Algaert wrote:even if characters would reach the 18 years mark CCP would just add some new skills for another few years of training.
Or, they could compress the overall skill tree and add the new skills while refunding SP.
Vera Algaert wrote:on the gameplay side the rationale is that EVE is all about meaningful trade-offs and that forced specialization encourages cooperation between players.
The only real "specialization" that occurs in fleets nowadays is only if the fleet needs something in particular and that is always changing. This forces people to re-specialize into different ship types. The only other type of "specialization" occurs when you don't have the skills trained to fly what the fleet really needs and have to go with something less useful.
Vera Algaert wrote:on the financial side forced specialization encourages players to get their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, .... accounts - if I could train everything on my main in a realistic timeframe I wouldn't be paying to train 3 alts at the same time.
Indeed, there is the income factor I give you that. However, as the amount simultaneous accounts increases the ability to handle rapidly changing environments decreases. In the most intense and exciting situations (read: fun) it can becomes extremely difficult if near impossible to handle more than one account.
Although I do admit it is fun to watch multiboxers when things get intense. |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum Alliance 99000802
633
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
After awhile training time really doesn't matter, and isn't even that bad. So long as you planned out what you want to do and act accordingly, after you hit that plan you end up just training random **** just to keep your queue full. Specialization is key and it doesn't really matter if it takes 2 years or 30 to train every skill it will still be a waste and more beneficial to spread out training on other alts. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
1198
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:15:00 -
[18] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:The only real "specialization" that occurs in fleets nowadays is only if the fleet needs something in particular and that is always changing. In 0.0 sov blobbing push-F1-to-win warfare, yes.
Everywhere else? Please. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
788
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Or, they could compress the overall skill tree and add the new skills while refunding SP. Your ideas keep getting worse and worse. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Josef Djugashvilis
The Scope Gallente Federation
272
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
Eve's skill training system is fine the way it is, and is probably the best single feature in Eve.
It helps shape the game in so many ways, not least by forcing folk to make choices which have real consequences. You want fries with that? |
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1469
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. Did I suggest anyone train all the skills to level V, nope. Was I implying such a thing, nope. All I am after is to reduce the overall time it takes to train individual skills in general, not to train them all to level V.
How do you reduce the time it takes to train skills in general without reducing the time it takes to get to level 5? Without increasing the multiplier for level 5, reducing training time will impact that 18 years figure. |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
183
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
Maxing your skill points in EVE is easy.
Pick a ship, max them out.
Can you afford to fly every ship in EVE? Even if you could, get ganked and it still dies. There is no I-Win button in EVE. Except blobbing of course. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg-_HeVNYOk
Save Derpy! |
Ivy Romanova
All Your Machariel Belong to Ham Industrial Technonauts
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
no simply no No one should be great at EVERYTHING that provide the intensive for people to specialize and encourage teamplay instead of being an one man army |
Gerald Taric
Adamantium Industry
61
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much? This was the introductionary sentence of your OP, where i underlined the important part. The next part was a solution suggestion. If we understood you wrong, then the OP construction was wrong.
Anyway.... I can just speak for myself: After one year of playing EVE i reached a skill state with my main character, which is rather satisfactionary. And i just took some skilltime to put it into a second charakter on the same account.
Therefore: No, the time is not too long. |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1243
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
You want all them skills,well prepare to wait,son. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
332
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much?
Simple suggestion: Take the character with the most SP and add 1 month's worth of SP on top of that. Now compress the time it takes to complete all skills to level V proportionately so that it equals that character's total training plus 1 month. After doing that give back the total SP lost in compressing all those skill times. Of course, you would do this for everyone.
Doing this will reduce everyone's training time without alienating those of the highest SP level.
I think this is an equitable suggestion and will help bring about a saner EVE.
Maybe it will help EVE out of beta a little bit too...
Yey, I'm halfway there.
Don't a change a thing.
Tal
|
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:50:00 -
[27] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Other than being a capital pilot (which we do not need more of) what takes so long to specialize for that such a drastic solution is needed?
It's not so much about specialization that I am concerned with, it's the re-specialization that can be a problem as is required in EVE. Things change and you have to adapt or you die, simple. I just want to make that a bit quicker so to allow for faster adapting and therefore faster change as well.
Also, think of the new people who join this game and see the huge amount of time it takes to get just about anywhere in EVE that is interesting in terms of skills. Quite a few people get turned off by the huge time investment that EVE can be in terms of training. Some of these people are perfectly willing to adapt to change and can, it's just that the time it takes to do so seems unreasonable to them.
Reducing the training time will have little effect on EVE overall, but it will make EVE a little less of time hog. I really don't see such a change as drastic as it really is not. Sure, there might be some upheaval immediately proceeding the change, but things will calm down fairly quickly as they always do.
Petrus Blackshell wrote:You are aware that level IV skills are a thing, and the gap between IV and V is easily covered by actual pilot skill, right?
Indeed, by why not actually have that skill at level V and maximize a given ships/module's potential. Skill is a major deciding factor in EVE and SP has little to do with that skill. Given such logic I don't see how reducing the training time overall will have much of a lasting negative impact. Such a change would make EVE less of a time grind and not much else. As you and others have put it individual skill is the real deciding factor in EVE not SP so lowering the overall training time isn't going to change things in EVE it just increases the quality of one's EVE gaming experience. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 07:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Yey, I'm halfway there.
Don't a change a thing.
Tal
Who cares, SP has got nothing to do with success in EVE so it wouldn't matter even if you would be finished training forever. True skill and experience are the makings of success in EVE and what makes it fun not SP.
Someone playing as long as you have would know already know this and would therefore know that training all the skills there are to train isn't the true EVE experience.
Reducing the time it takes to train all skills overall can only increase one's experience of EVE at a more rapid rate. It is this experience that is what makes EVE fun and I am all for more fun how about you?
|
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:01:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ivy Romanova wrote:no simply no No one should be great at EVERYTHING that provide the intensive for people to specialize and encourage teamplay instead of being an one man army
Having max SP would make you great at NOTHING. SP has nothing do with how great someone is at doing various things. Having max SP still wouldn't make you a one man army either as you will probably get blobbed
|
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
3642
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:01:00 -
[30] - Quote
18 years you say... that means I'm halfway there nice! Although last time I checked iirc it was 25+ years...
/c
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
1199
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:08:00 -
[31] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:it's the re-specialization that can be a problem as is required in EVE There are two places I see where re-speccing is a problem. The first is in shifting nullsec fleet doctrines, and being an obeying lapdog is what you sign up for when you sign up for someone who does large sov warfare. No sympathy there.
The second is for people who insist on flying flavor of the month garbage. Drake gets changed to be in line with the other BCs? Boo-hoo, I have to respec. Dramiel got brought back in line? Boo-hoo, I have to find a new autowin mobile. Datacores changed? Oh no, I have to respec!
If you're suckling the teat of one very specific aspect of a very dynamic game, you are very misinformed, and you don't need faster training to be able to switch between teats more quickly as they dry out.
Elzon1 wrote:Also, think of the new people who join this game and see the huge amount of time it takes to get just about anywhere in EVE that is interesting in terms of skills. Quite a few people get turned off by the huge time investment that EVE can be in terms of training. Some of these people are perfectly willing to adapt to change and can, it's just that the time it takes to do so seems unreasonable to them. A couple of very young (a couple months, if that) pilots in electronic warfare ships were crucial to my corp getting a 2+ billion ISK Tengu kill today. The problem is not that newbies are useless, but that nobody helps them find their place properly. That is not going to be solved by more SP.
Elzon1 wrote:Reducing the training time will have little effect on EVE overall Nope. Faster training, SP reimbursements, and all that shebang simply encourages "shoot from the hip" training towards whatever is perceived to be the "best ship" at that time, and reduces the rewards of long term commitment to a particular ship or play style. In other words, you know how there is an overabundance of Drakes and Hurricanes? Think of that, but worse.
Elzon1 wrote:Indeed, by why not actually have that skill at level V and maximize a given ships/module's potential. Skill is a major deciding factor in EVE and SP has little to do with that skill. Given such logic I don't see how reducing the training time overall will have much of a lasting negative impact. Such a change would make EVE less of a time grind and not much else. As you and others have put it individual skill is the real deciding factor in EVE not SP so lowering the overall training time isn't going to change things in EVE it just increases the quality of one's EVE gaming experience. Removing level V skills as niche rewards for dedicating oneself to a particular ship or play style for a long time would never fly with those who have already trained level V skills. Level IV in a ship's skills means "I can fly this well", while level V means "I fly this great, and all the time". The former is casual. The latter is specialization. Specialization is rewarded in Eve.
tl;dr: idea is bad because of FOTM, because of penalizing bittervets, because of not rewarding commitment/specialization, and because of Falcon. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1566
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. Did I suggest anyone train all the skills to level V, nope. Was I implying such a thing, nope. All I am after is to reduce the overall time it takes to train individual skills in general, not to train them all to level V. I am suggesting training in EVE simply takes too long in general and that reducing that time overall without harming the highest SP players as an equitable solution.
If all you want is perfect core skills and every subcap / weapon spec to IV, that only takes like 3-4 years. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
332
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Yey, I'm halfway there.
Don't a change a thing.
Tal
Who cares, SP has got nothing to do with success in EVE so it wouldn't matter even if you would be finished training forever. True skill and experience are the makings of success in EVE and what makes it fun not SP. Someone playing as long as you have would know already know this and would therefore know that training all the skills there are to train isn't the true EVE experience. Reducing the time it takes to train all skills overall can only increase one's experience of EVE at a more rapid rate. It is this experience that is what makes EVE fun and I am all for more fun how about you?
No I disagree : )
For one thing I'm not halfway there (except in time) as I have taken breaks and been lax with training sometimes. I like the skill system. You train for what you need and when your done move onto to something else. I like the fact it takes time, I also like the fact I don't have to grind skill points by killing 100 space bunnies.
I have lots of fun. Disagreeing with you doesn't remove the fun from the game. (actually it might add some)
Tal |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
1566
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:19:00 -
[34] - Quote
Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything.
Oh oh.
It's those little green check marks. I can't stand them. Maybe I have ass burgers.....
|
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum Alliance 99000802
635
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:22:00 -
[35] - Quote
Those who rush to train a BS without understanding it nor spending ample time in a cruiser or BC, usually die hard. Training time length is more a helmet check to ensure people don't rush into things they don't understand or afford. Imagine all the nubs who would be trying to gate jump carriers because it only took them 3 weeks to train for one. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
789
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:25:00 -
[36] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:If all you want is perfect core skills and every subcap / weapon spec to IV, that only takes like 3-4 years.
Takes less than that if you use +4s and remaps eh |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:29:00 -
[37] - Quote
Gerald Taric wrote:Elzon1 wrote:The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much? This was the introductionary sentence of your OP, where i underlined the important part. The next part was a solution suggestion. If we understood you wrong, then the OP construction was wrong.
I don't think you are understanding my sentence structure incorrectly. Perhaps it is the assumptions about my frame of mind you made when reading such statements that were incorrect?
By saying saying 18+ yeas of training is a bit much I am logically implying that generally everything in the overall skill tree takes too long.
Gerald Taric wrote:Anyway.... I can just speak for myself: After one year of playing EVE i reached a skill state with my main character, which is rather satisfactionary. And i just took some skilltime to put it into a second charakter on the same account.
And if that "skill state" only took 6 months to attain would you be less satisfied or perhaps filled with rage about how little time it took. I am going to take a guess on that and so no.
Gerald Taric wrote:Therefore: No, the time is not too long.
Ah, then you would prefer it to be longer then? How about 50 years? 100 years?
See what I am getting at there? Making training take less time seems better than making it longer, no? Or did you want a 1,000 year training queue you glutton? |
Conrad Makbure
Phoibe Enterprises
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much?
Simple suggestion: Take the character with the most SP and add 1 month's worth of SP on top of that. Now compress the time it takes to complete all skills to level V proportionately so that it equals that character's total training plus 1 month. After doing that give back the total SP lost in compressing all those skill times. Of course, you would do this for everyone.
Doing this will reduce everyone's training time without alienating those of the highest SP level.
I think this is an equitable suggestion and will help bring about a saner EVE.
Maybe it will help EVE out of beta a little bit too...
Yeah, the training time in this game is absurd. People keep paying to play so it's not going away, that's for sure. We should be able to do more with ranks 1 - 4 on all skills, making exceptions for capital ships and leadership. |
Guttripper
State War Academy Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:30:00 -
[39] - Quote
Anyone else start a skill, note it will take under a week to ten days to complete, and mumble to themselves, "Great, another short skill..." while wondering what to train next after that...? |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
333
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:31:00 -
[40] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Gerald Taric wrote:Elzon1 wrote:The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much? This was the introductionary sentence of your OP, where i underlined the important part. The next part was a solution suggestion. If we understood you wrong, then the OP construction was wrong. I don't think you are understanding my sentence structure incorrectly. Perhaps it is the assumptions about my frame of mind you made when reading such statements that were incorrect? By saying saying 18+ yeas of training is a bit much I am logically implying that generally everything in the overall skill tree takes too long. Gerald Taric wrote:Anyway.... I can just speak for myself: After one year of playing EVE i reached a skill state with my main character, which is rather satisfactionary. And i just took some skilltime to put it into a second charakter on the same account. And if that "skill state" only took 6 months to attain would you be less satisfied or perhaps filled with rage about how little time it took. I am going to take a guess on that and so no. Gerald Taric wrote:Therefore: No, the time is not too long. Ah, then you would prefer it to be longer then? How about 50 years? 100 years? See what I am getting at there? Making training take less time seems better than making it longer, no? Or did you want a 1,000 year training queue you glutton?
1 MILLION YEARS, pinky to the corner of my mouth .
Tal
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Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum Alliance 99000802
635
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:31:00 -
[41] - Quote
Guttripper wrote:Anyone else start a skill, note it will take under a week to ten days to complete, and mumble to themselves, "Great, another short skill..." while wondering what to train next after that...?
Its gotten to the point where I only look for 20+ day skills to train. Granted I don't play much anymore, and hell I even think my skill queue is inactive and has been for acouple days now.
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:33:00 -
[42] - Quote
Chribba wrote:18 years you say... that means I'm halfway there nice! Although last time I checked iirc it was 25+ years...
/c
Cool 25+ years even longer, doesn't change my argument.
And being halfway done doesn't mean anything in EVE so it does nothing for you to mention it.
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
1199
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:34:00 -
[43] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:hell I even think my skill queue is inactive and has been for acouple days now. How... how can you bear the pressure?! Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
87
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:36:00 -
[44] - Quote
Guttripper wrote:Anyone else start a skill, note it will take under a week to ten days to complete, and mumble to themselves, "Great, another short skill..." while wondering what to train next after that...?
Yep. I look at 30 day plus skills and load them without a second thought now.
The OP does not get Eve. If you are too impatient to wait for the good things you do not deserve them. The only positive I can see from implementing the OPs impertinent idea is that there will be a rapid increase in the number of people flying ships they do not have the real life skills to be flying, and thus a rapid influx of easy to beat pilots.
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ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
87
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:37:00 -
[45] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Chribba wrote:18 years you say... that means I'm halfway there nice! Although last time I checked iirc it was 25+ years...
/c Cool 25+ years even longer, doesn't change my argument. And being halfway done doesn't mean anything in EVE so it does nothing for you to mention it.
Do you know who you are so mindlessly flipping off there?
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Tobiaz
Spacerats
576
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:40:00 -
[46] - Quote
I say 18 years is not long enough. Idiot players trying to do everything by themselves are a plague for MMOs Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
441
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:40:00 -
[47] - Quote
Yeah, most of that 18 years is taken up with things like Outpost Construction V and niche skills that nobody really needs to train anyway.
Basically the OP is a big dummy who thinks he needs to grind up to Level 80 before he can raid for purples. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:40:00 -
[48] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:How do you reduce the time it takes to train skills in general without reducing the time it takes to get to level 5?
You do reduce the time it takes to get to level 5 and I see no harm in that overall.
Mara Rinn wrote:Without increasing the multiplier for level 5, reducing training time will impact that 18 years figure.
I'm sure CCP can figure out the technical details, overall its just math. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:50:00 -
[49] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:No I disagree : )
For one thing I'm not halfway there (except in time) as I have taken breaks and been lax with training sometimes. I like the skill system. You train for what you need and when your done move onto to something else. I like the fact it takes time, I also like the fact I don't have to grind skill points by killing 100 space bunnies.
I have lots of fun. Disagreeing with you doesn't remove the fun from the game. (actually it might add some)
Tal
"I like the skill system."
As do I and I didn't say otherwise.
"You train for what you need and when your done move onto to something else."
Yep, nothing wrong with that and it doesn't disagree with my argument.
"I like the fact it takes time, I also like the fact I don't have to grind skill points by killing 100 space bunnies."
Same here.
If you don't think it takes too long overall to train things in EVE then I guess you wouldn't mind it taking significantly longer than it already does.
You really don't seem to disagree with my argument overall. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
3643
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:52:00 -
[50] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Chribba wrote:18 years you say... that means I'm halfway there nice! Although last time I checked iirc it was 25+ years...
/c Cool 25+ years even longer, doesn't change my argument. And being halfway done doesn't mean anything in EVE so it does nothing for you to mention it. Sure it means something, it means I'm halfway there. Although by the next patch CCP added more skills to make me only 1/4 of the way there so...
And tbh, when I got maxed on SiSi before, those 450m SP didn't make me jack better at PVP so I'm sorry to say, maxing out is NOT an end goal.
/c
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Velarra
Ghost Festival Naraka.
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:56:00 -
[51] - Quote
The beauty of long V's = being able to multitask RL with Eve.
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Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
133
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:56:00 -
[52] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Marcus Ichiro wrote:Training everything isn't the point. I wasn't saying it is. Just that it takes too long overall. Marcus Ichiro wrote:The point is that you're supposed to specialise. Indeed, and this change would make that just a little quicker now wouldn't it.
The training time is an unobtainable goal. Like 'having it all". As such, your suggestion is an attempt to make it obtainable and that is not going to happen.
Just like other games, when you reach "max level", you are done - not quite, they add things that extend it. From EQ1 with AA's through Rift with it's Planar Attunement -- as you approach or obtain those "beyond max level" limits, they added more so you still have something to go for.
So all those skills you don't have but want, you keep training for and still see yourself as advancing and improving. It's part of the designed motivation to keep players playing.
Removal, putting them in reach... Not gonna happen. Too many would go "I got there, I'm done" and that isn't part of the plan for such a game world as this. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
333
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 08:57:00 -
[53] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:No I disagree : )
For one thing I'm not halfway there (except in time) as I have taken breaks and been lax with training sometimes. I like the skill system. You train for what you need and when your done move onto to something else. I like the fact it takes time, I also like the fact I don't have to grind skill points by killing 100 space bunnies.
I have lots of fun. Disagreeing with you doesn't remove the fun from the game. (actually it might add some)
Tal "I like the skill system." As do I and I didn't say otherwise. "You train for what you need and when your done move onto to something else." Yep, nothing wrong with that and it doesn't disagree with my argument. "I like the fact it takes time, I also like the fact I don't have to grind skill points by killing 100 space bunnies." Same here. If you don't think it takes too long overall to train things in EVE then I guess you wouldn't mind it taking significantly longer than it already does. You really don't seem to disagree with my argument overall.
I just like it where it is, there is that peculiar sense of accomplishment (I don't know why) when you come to the end of a particularly long training skill.
I think several ppl have said that the returns for lvl 5 are marginal and its more efficient to go to lv l4 (Tippia has a link at the bottom of her sig) then train something else, so if you wanted to, you could take years off doing that.
Tal
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:00:00 -
[54] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote:Elzon1 wrote:Chribba wrote:18 years you say... that means I'm halfway there nice! Although last time I checked iirc it was 25+ years...
/c Cool 25+ years even longer, doesn't change my argument. And being halfway done doesn't mean anything in EVE so it does nothing for you to mention it. Do you know who you are so mindlessly flipping off there?
Indeed, the veld king and fervent supporter of all things EVE.
And I don't think what I said was flipping him off. I was merely voicing the argument overall SP count has little to do with how successful you are in EVE.
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ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
87
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:03:00 -
[55] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:ModeratedToSilence wrote:Elzon1 wrote:Chribba wrote:18 years you say... that means I'm halfway there nice! Although last time I checked iirc it was 25+ years...
/c Cool 25+ years even longer, doesn't change my argument. And being halfway done doesn't mean anything in EVE so it does nothing for you to mention it. Do you know who you are so mindlessly flipping off there? Indeed, the veld king and fervent supporter of all things EVE. And I don't think what I said was flipping him off. I was merely voicing the argument overall SP count has little to do with how successful you are in EVE.
If SP has little relevance to your success in Eve it then makes no difference how long it takes to earn them. |
Cloned S0ul
Blood Fanatics
113
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:13:00 -
[56] - Quote
During next 18 years they can add another new 300-400 skills and like 3 new playable rases, areas ,modules, features, here is no end game all is depent Devs imagination. As somone before said eve last steps, is about specialisations, if fact while you even got 200mil sp you cant use all sp at once, so here no sense to train existed skills to lvl 5 :D
For example one of my alts got +40mil sp, but in fact he sitting in naga pass four months, this mean i use only few skills form gunery and spaceship , all rest of sp are like like uselles in frezz mode, so here no sense at all to possess all skills espetialy to lvl5. |
Whisperen
That's Not A Knife Flatline.
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:14:00 -
[57] - Quote
If the training times where less there would be less demand for alts or even worse other players to play with this is a MMO after all having to depend on fleet/corp/alliance mates to do the things you cant are what make it fun. I mean why even talk to people if you can do it all your self? |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:20:00 -
[58] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Sure it means something, it means I'm halfway there. Although by the next patch CCP added more skills to make me only 1/4 of the way there so...
And what has that got to do with anything in EVE other than the skill tree itself? Nothing much in terms of success in EVE.
Chribba wrote:And tbh, when I got maxed on SiSi before, those 450m SP didn't make me jack better at PVP so I'm sorry to say, maxing out is NOT an end goal.
/c
Even you agree that SP count has little to do with success in EVE as I do.
At no point did I say maxing out is an end goal. It just takes to long overall to train and that includes all skills to level V.
You see in order for me to say training takes too long in EVE I have to say training everything overall takes too long.
I constructed my argument in a logical way and at the same time I drew out the assumption that people thought I wanted to traing everything to level V like a nub. People seem to be fighting an assumption and not the actual argument I am making.
Argument: Training takes too long.
Assumption with argument: "He thinks training makes him better, nub"
I am merely making the argument that training takes too long and I am not insinuating anything about training, just it's overall length.
If someone thinks training doesn't take too long I leave it up to them to come up with a reason outside of their opinion.
Shortening the overall training time can improve user experience and any argument to the contrary seems folly. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:23:00 -
[59] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote:If SP has little relevance to your success in Eve it then makes no difference how long it takes to earn them.
Then why not just shorten it? Why waste time training when you could be having fun being blown up in that new ship now? |
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
87
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:25:00 -
[60] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:ModeratedToSilence wrote:If SP has little relevance to your success in Eve it then makes no difference how long it takes to earn them. Then why not just shorten it? Why waste time training when you could be having fun being blown up in that new ship now?
Because that is one of the things what separates Eve Online from the silly little clone MMOs for kiddies.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
3645
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:27:00 -
[61] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:If someone thinks training doesn't take too long I leave it up to them to come up with a reason outside of their opinion. I don't think it takes too long, it gives you a goal to go towards rather than getting there quickly. As getting to the goal quickly would shorten the lifetime of the game play.
Plus it gives a sense of accomplishment knowing you have put the effort and energy into getting into a Titan, or using Cruise Missiles at its absolute best. But that's just my view of things.
/c
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Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:29:00 -
[62] - Quote
EvE skill system is perfect. Only people that don't like it are the theme parkers. If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
974
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:31:00 -
[63] - Quote
Why not just leave it alone?
Who cares that it takes 18-25+ man-years to get L5 in EVERYTHING that's available? I mean, seriously, I like the fact that after however many years I've been playing now (5? 6?), that I'm still not good at PvP (skills or player) ... though took the time to get spreadsheets 5, and can supply other people to fight on my behalf (they get cheap ships that they can't build, I get not shot at ... works pretty well).
Most of the "highend" stuff is pretty pointless after L3 (T2 manufacturing skills come to mind) anyway. |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum Alliance 99000802
635
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:39:00 -
[64] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:EvE skill system is perfect. Only people that don't like it are the theme parkers.
Its not bad but not really perfect. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 09:47:00 -
[65] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:I just like it where it is, there is that peculiar sense of accomplishment (I don't know why) when you come to the end of a particularly long training skill.
Waiting as an accomplishment... strange opinion there. But hey, you could feel more accomplished if the overall training time in EVE was shortened according to your logic.
Talon SilverHawk wrote:I think several ppl have said that the returns for lvl 5 are marginal and its more efficient to go to lv l4 (Tippia has a link at the bottom of her sig) then train something else, so if you wanted to, you could take years off doing that.
Tal
Indeed and I would agree to that. But at no point did I say training to level 5 was a good idea.
There seems to be an assumption when someone says that training takes too long that they are attributing SP to skill or success in EVE. Let me assure you that I am not insinuating such a thing. I am merely making the argument that training overall in EVE takes too long and that shortening it may improve the user experience in EVE that's it.
Do you guys remember the old expression:
DonGÇÖt assume anything, it makes an GÇ£assGÇ¥ out of GÇ£uGÇ¥ and GÇ£me.GÇ¥ |
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
89
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:06:00 -
[66] - Quote
Chribba wrote:Elzon1 wrote:If someone thinks training doesn't take too long I leave it up to them to come up with a reason outside of their opinion. I don't think it takes too long, it gives you a goal to go towards rather than getting there quickly. As getting to the goal quickly would shorten the lifetime of the game play. Plus it gives a sense of accomplishment knowing you have put the effort and energy into getting into a Titan, or using Cruise Missiles at its absolute best. But that's just my view of things. /c
OP this here sums things up nicely.
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:21:00 -
[67] - Quote
Chribba wrote:I don't think it takes too long, it gives you a goal to go towards rather than getting there quickly. As getting to the goal quickly would shorten the lifetime of the game play.
So, if I were to finish training everything to level V the game would be over for me... I THINK NOT!!!
If I were to stop training this very second would that stop me from playing the game? NO!!! Training has got nothing to do with whether I continue playing the game or how I play it. The only thing it affects is what experiences are not available to someone yet.
The point of shortening the time it takes to train in EVE is to increase the speed with which you gain access to different possible experiences.
Chribba wrote:Plus it gives a sense of accomplishment knowing you have put the effort and energy into getting into a Titan, or using Cruise Missiles at its absolute best. But that's just my view of things.
Waiting as an accomplishment... strange opinion there. But hey, you could feel more accomplished if the overall training time in EVE was shortened according to your logic.
Yes, I will start copying and pasting if I see the same old arguments and opinions pop up. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
789
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:23:00 -
[68] - Quote
TL;DR: OP wants instant gratification, and does not yet understand the gratification of long term goals, where even the patience to wait that long is a challenge. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Sobach
Fourth Circle Total Comfort
37
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:25:00 -
[69] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:ModeratedToSilence wrote:If SP has little relevance to your success in Eve it then makes no difference how long it takes to earn them. Then why not just shorten it? Why waste time training when you could be having fun being blown up in that new ship now?
by your logic, why not just take it to the next step and eliminate SP entirely? Let's just abolish the entire training system and max everyone's character out, and when new skills are introduced to the game, everyone automatically gets them at lv.5 too! This way you won't "waste" ANY time training and could be having fun blowing things up!
Hell, while we're at it, let's make all the ships and modules free too, that way people won't have to make isk to afford ships, and thus they'll be able to spend even more time having fun blowing things up! We can call this the CoD: Elzon1 Pwnz0r expansion!
or you can just htfu or gtfo of eve, either makes no difference to me. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
333
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:29:00 -
[70] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote:I just like it where it is, there is that peculiar sense of accomplishment (I don't know why) when you come to the end of a particularly long training skill. Waiting as an accomplishment... strange opinion there. But hey, you could feel more accomplished if the overall training time in EVE was shortened according to your logic. Talon SilverHawk wrote:I think several ppl have said that the returns for lvl 5 are marginal and its more efficient to go to lv l4 (Tippia has a link at the bottom of her sig) then train something else, so if you wanted to, you could take years off doing that.
Tal
Indeed and I would agree to that. But at no point did I say training to level 5 was a good idea. There seems to be an assumption when someone says that training takes too long that they are attributing SP to skill or success in EVE. Let me assure you that I am not insinuating such a thing. I am merely making the argument that training overall in EVE takes too long and that shortening it may improve the user experience in EVE that's it. Do you guys remember the old expression: DonGÇÖt assume anything, it makes an GÇ£assGÇ¥ out of GÇ£uGÇ¥ and GÇ£me.GÇ¥
No just u, (joke in a non trolling way)
Tal |
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Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:29:00 -
[71] - Quote
ModeratedToSilence wrote:Because that is one of the things what separates Eve Online from the silly little clone MMOs for kiddies.
And shortening the training time from 25+ years to about 10 years is going to turn EVE into a theme park MMO.
I don't think so. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:33:00 -
[72] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:TL;DR: OP wants instant gratification, and does not yet understand the gratification of long term goals, where even the patience to wait that long is a challenge.
If you read the post you would realize I still want everyone to wait about a decade if they want everything to level V.
The reason I did that was that if the time to train was reduced below what people already took the time to train then they would be alienated. I don't want veterans to be alienated in such a way, I just want to help improve EVE for everyone. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
974
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:34:00 -
[73] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:ModeratedToSilence wrote:Because that is one of the things what separates Eve Online from the silly little clone MMOs for kiddies.
And shortening the training time from 25+ years to about 10 years is going to turn EVE into a theme park MMO. I don't think so.
probably not,
but then you're gonna be whining that 10 years is too long ... and then someone will whine that n years is too long... and so on ...
There's honestly no reason to change it -- I mean, seriously, there's always something new for your toon to learn (hell, same thing happens day to day ...) |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:38:00 -
[74] - Quote
Sobach wrote:by your logic, why not just take it to the next step and eliminate SP entirely? Let's just abolish the entire training system and max everyone's character out, and when new skills are introduced to the game, everyone automatically gets them at lv.5 too! This way you won't "waste" ANY time training and could be having fun blowing things up!
Hell, while we're at it, let's make all the ships and modules free too, that way people won't have to make isk to afford ships, and thus they'll be able to spend even more time having fun blowing things up! We can call this the CoD: Elzon1 Pwnz0r expansion!
or you can just htfu or gtfo of eve, either makes no difference to me.
Remember I said the highest SP character plus 1 month?
I didn't say I wanted to do away with the training system altogether in the beginning post now did I?
You mad bro? |
Mallak Azaria
xX-Crusader-Xx
167
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:42:00 -
[75] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much?
Simple suggestion: Take the character with the most SP and add 1 month's worth of SP on top of that. Now compress the time it takes to complete all skills to level V proportionately so that it equals that character's total training plus 1 month. After doing that give back the total SP lost in compressing all those skill times. Of course, you would do this for everyone.
Doing this will reduce everyone's training time without alienating those of the highest SP level.
I think this is an equitable suggestion and will help bring about a saner EVE.
Maybe it will help EVE out of beta a little bit too...
There is no way to respond to this is a reasonable manner, so I'll just go with....
PFFFT HAHAHAHAHAHA
|
Sobach
Fourth Circle Total Comfort
37
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:46:00 -
[76] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Remember I said the highest SP character plus 1 month?
I didn't say I wanted to do away with the training system altogether in the beginning post now did I?
You mad bro?
Just calling out the bullshit as I see them
Like I said, what I said was taking things a step further with your logic. You're basically asking for things easier/faster to get to, without providing any real reason other than "because it's good! and it's good because I said so!" |
Gealbhan
Used Shuttle Sales Representative
168
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:47:00 -
[77] - Quote
Skill system is fine, it's not our fault your ADD wants to jump around training everything. |
Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
662
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 10:57:00 -
[78] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote: All I am after is to reduce the overall time it takes to train individual skills in general.
No. - [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:05:00 -
[79] - Quote
Sobach wrote:Just calling out the bullshit as I see them Like I said, what I said was taking things a step further with your logic. You're basically asking for things easier/faster to get to, without providing any real reason other than "because it's good! and it's good because I said so!"
Remember in the beginning post I made strict limits to the general concept preventing any missteps (ex. a step further).
What reason was there for getting rid of the learning skills? Because it's good? Because CCP said so?
Moves like that can improve things in EVE for everyone.
Oh and remember removing the learning skills actually shortened the overall training time? BLASPHEMY right?
Oh and they reimbursed the SP when they did get rid of them, remember?
They did it once, they can do it once more now can't they? |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
314
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:05:00 -
[80] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Gerald Taric wrote:Therefore: No, the time is not too long. Ah, then you would prefer it to be longer then? How about 50 years? 100 years? See what I am getting at there? Making training take less time seems better than making it longer, no? Or did you want a 1,000 year training queue you glutton?
That is, quite frankly, one of the most idiotic comments I've seen on here. No-one else here is complaining about training taking too long, which is why we do not think it needs reducing in anyway, this does not mean we feel it needs to be increased.
Quit making ridiculous statements and actually listen to what some people with an IQ above 100 have been saying to you. I think it was Brooks that explained it best. Training times are such that it forces people to attain some semblance of capability in one area of the game at a time before allowing them to move on, as per his example, when moving from Cruiser class to Battleship class.
Stupid idea is poorly thought through and stupid. Do not want, would not vote for. 0/10. Don't try again. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
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Luis Graca
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:06:00 -
[81] - Quote
Ciar Meara wrote:Elzon1 wrote: All I am after is to reduce the overall time it takes to train individual skills in general.
No.
And again No This is not a single player game to train individual skills and if you skilled the wrong skills it's very simple **** HAPPENS i for example can fly and have a hulk but don't use it for at least 2 years CCP SUCKS |
Lipbite
Express Hauler
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:08:00 -
[82] - Quote
This is perfect business model where new subscribers have to pay for a year (or two) long subscription to get decent pilot (compared to 9-15 days character leveling time in SWTOR or Rift) +
this model support status quo where old subscribers are superior to new pilots. So every older subscriber will tell you it's perfect having toons with 20+ millions SP in engineering, navigation, electronics, etc. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
790
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:09:00 -
[83] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:TL;DR: OP wants instant gratification, and does not yet understand the gratification of long term goals, where even the patience to wait that long is a challenge. If you read the post you would realize I still want everyone to wait about a decade if they want everything to level V. The reason I did that was that if the time to train was reduced below what people already took the time to train then they would be alienated. I don't want veterans to be alienated in such a way, I just want to help improve EVE for everyone. I read your post, but you are talking about roughly halving training time. Thats huge, and would alienate the vets because you just made it so that a raw noob can have everything in the time it took them to get halfway there. More than that, as pointed out, alot of those skills are completely useless outside of niche situations, which means that with your plan my 36 mil SP would be able to get into a perfectly trained supercap in just a few months, instead of years. I am not supercap ready, not should I be with such a small pool of SP and play time under my belt.
You want to be able to do stuff like that ASAP, and fail to realize that for larger ships its more than SP, or skill, or even knowledge to be able to use them right. You need UNDERSTANDING. And the fact that you want to shorten these times means you lack the understanding to properly utilize the things you want to use fast.
The only 'experiences' that a new player is locked out of due to SP are flying those very large ships, and they should be til they have the experience and knowledge to understand how they work, and how they impact the game.
You can buy such a character, but you still need an understanding of the game(or a bot) to make the kind of isk needed to buy such a character. You can see proof of this frequently, with things like a gyrofit erebus, or a mining carrier going down all the time. Those are people who fail to understand their ships, and came by them way before they were ready. Luckily, they are a very small percentage of such pilots, and it should stay that way.
Edit: typo Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Luis Graca
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:12:00 -
[84] - Quote
Lipbite wrote:This is perfect business model where new subscribers have to pay for a year (or two) long subscription to get decent pilot (compared to 9-15 days character leveling time in SWTOR or Rift) +
this model support status quo where old subscribers are superior to new pilots. So every older subscriber will tell you it's perfect having toons with 20+ millions SP in engineering, navigation, electronics, etc.
This is not true
Just because you don't know how to do it doesn't mean you can't do it CCP SUCKS |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
790
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:15:00 -
[85] - Quote
Lipbite wrote:This is perfect business model where new subscribers have to pay for a year (or two) long subscription to get decent pilot (compared to 9-15 days character leveling time in SWTOR or Rift) +
this model support status quo where old subscribers are superior to new pilots. So every older subscriber will tell you it's perfect having toons with 20+ millions SP in engineering, navigation, electronics, etc. You can have perfect skills in a frigate in a very very short amount of time, quite able to compete with any pilot in the game, and a frigate is more than capable of holding its own against a bigger ship, in the hands of a smart pilot.
My first kill was taking down a myrmidon with an incursus(hint, shoot his drones first) Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Presidente Gallente
Dark-Rising
27
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:15:00 -
[86] - Quote
Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything.
THIS!
When you come to +90m SP specialized on eg. Gallente in my case you don't think about skilling and how much it takes anymore. If you would do you are in the wrong game.
Why is EVE so awesome (and scary)? Because the effort to get (to) something ingame is very close to RL mechanics: learn, work, pay the bills, better skills, better job, more income, more toys, more dreams, more experience... more relaxed. |
Sister Lumi
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:19:00 -
[87] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote: Argument: Training takes too long.
"Too" (long) is not an argument, it is your opinion which you would need to back up with reasons or evidence in order form an argument.
As it is, we all can just declare our opinion "Training doesn't take too long" as you presented nothing to discuss about.
|
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
314
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:22:00 -
[88] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Sobach wrote:Just calling out the bullshit as I see them Like I said, what I said was taking things a step further with your logic. You're basically asking for things easier/faster to get to, without providing any real reason other than "because it's good! and it's good because I said so!" Remember in the beginning post I made strict limits to the general concept preventing any missteps (ex. a step further). What reason was there for getting rid of the learning skills? Because it's good? Because CCP said so? Moves like that can improve things in EVE for everyone. Oh and remember removing the learning skills actually shortened the overall training time? BLASPHEMY right? Oh and they reimbursed the SP when they did get rid of them, remember? They did it once, they can do it once more now can't they?
They removed the Learning Skills for one very good reason. They were pointless, much like your posts. Everyone was better off without them. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
lanyaie
419
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:23:00 -
[89] - Quote
I'm going to make this short and to the point:
NO. I dont post often, but when I do i'm probably trolling you Currently offering 100% legit hulkageddon security sponsored by the mittani, send 50m to me and 50m to him |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:29:00 -
[90] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much? You realise that there are characters in game who are (if I recall the max SP potential correctly) more than halfway through this yes?
You realise that people like Dr Caymus were apparently running out of industrial and science skills at the time neural remaps came in yes?
You realise that, as a miner, you can reach the peak of your training and have to search for something else in around six months; as a broader Industrialist in a couple of years...?
Have you looked at the threads from various characters looking for viable training routes because they feel they've trained everything they want to by 60 or 80 million SPs? |
|
Gerald Taric
Adamantium Industry
63
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:37:00 -
[91] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:[...]Or did you want a 1,000 year training queue you glutton? "you glutton" = overeater, chowhound, greedy pig,
If you want to discuss, do it in constructive way. Try again without insult.
Until then i remain with "NO" like many others here. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:39:00 -
[92] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:ModeratedToSilence wrote:Because that is one of the things what separates Eve Online from the silly little clone MMOs for kiddies.
And shortening the training time from 25+ years to about 10 years is going to turn EVE into a theme park MMO. I don't think so.
CCP should increase EvE training time to 50 years, not the other way around. If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
102
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 11:44:00 -
[93] - Quote
Marcus Ichiro wrote:Training everything isn't the point. The point is that you're supposed to specialise.
That would be true only if you started Minmatar or Amarr, if you started Gallente then you have no other choice at some point because balance is not intended to make stuff equal, balance is made so you have the feeling of being good at eve because you fly minmatar and angel even if it's a lie but your internet e peen doesn't care about anything else.
Sad panda brb |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 12:00:00 -
[94] - Quote
Gerald Taric wrote:Elzon1 wrote:[...]Or did you want a 1,000 year training queue you glutton? "you glutton" = overeater, chowhound, greedy pig, If you want to discuss, do it in constructive way. Try again without insult. Until then i remain with " NO" like many others here.
Whoops sorry about that. I have gotten a little tired and forgot to include the other part of that last word ... for punishment...
In other words I didn't simply mean glutton. I meant to say "glutton for punishment" the idiom and instead I just typed "glutton".
My apologies for not correcting that mistake.
I respect that you are of the opinion that the overall training length should stay the same or increase.
Of course, I just don't see good reason for the training length to exceed a decade.
I will probably talk to the CSM about this and get their take on the matter in terms of the future of EVE. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
220
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 12:07:00 -
[95] - Quote
That's what I love the most about eve: can't get everything in a few months. Think ahead, and maybe add a new account if you can't wait. One of the best things: no grinding for EXP. EGD: If you jettison what's in your brain, at least expect can flipping. |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
318
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 12:10:00 -
[96] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Gerald Taric wrote:Elzon1 wrote:[...]Or did you want a 1,000 year training queue you glutton? "you glutton" = overeater, chowhound, greedy pig, If you want to discuss, do it in constructive way. Try again without insult. Until then i remain with " NO" like many others here. Whoops sorry about that. I have gotten a little tired and forgot to include the other part of that last word ... for punishment... In other words I didn't simply mean glutton. I meant to say "glutton for punishment" the idiom and instead I just typed "glutton". My apologies for not correcting that mistake. I respect that you are of the opinion that the overall training length should stay the same or increase. Of course, I just don't see good reason for the training length to exceed a decade. I will probably talk to the CSM about this and get their take on the matter in terms of the future of EVE.
Lol, still insisting that we want the time increased just because we think your idea is dumb. The idea of accelerating skill training has been discussed and dismissed long before you ever got here, it is a dead subject.
Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7663
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 12:13:00 -
[97] - Quote
No, 18 years is not too long for the simple reason that it doesn't take 18 years.
Tippia is 4-+ years old. She will be GÇ£finishedGÇ¥ training in less than a year (-¦ some stuff just added for fun that I might end up skipping).
Once that is done, I'm thinking about starting a new character doing something else (or, rather, doing the same thing, but with more focus since this character does everything).
It does not take much time to respec into something new because there are only two large trunks to the skill tree: ships and science. Once you start either path, you are done with the foundation in very short order and anything on top of that is just garnish. If you want to change focus within each branch, it's just a matter of adding a different garnish and each of those have their own, thinners set of branches with their own foundations that take very little time to finish. Shifting from one main trunk to the other is a slightly bigger undertaking, but it's all just a matter of building that foundation, and you have to cross-train between the two anyway to make the character useful.
GǪunless you go the alt route and do both at once on different characters, effectively cutting those 18 years down to 9.
In fact, people are already running out of things to train so CCP should probably think of some way to extend those 18 years to at least 25GÇô30 (again, since the reduction 18 was just a en effect of having more efficient skill training tools at our disposal). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Velicitia
Open Designs
977
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 12:15:00 -
[98] - Quote
Lipbite wrote:This is perfect business model where new subscribers have to pay for a year (or two) long subscription to get decent pilot (compared to 9-15 days character leveling time in SWTOR or Rift) +
this model support status quo where old subscribers are superior to new pilots. So every older subscriber will tell you it's perfect having toons with 20+ millions SP in engineering, navigation, electronics, etc.
WTF are you talking about?
You're "very good" (i.e. all the recommended certs) in a Frigate in ~30 days (5 weeks, tops including web/scram/ab/mwd). I don't remember offhand, but I'm pretty sure that this doesn't include the "extra" support skills (gunnery/missiles, or some of the other things for the other support certs) -- so it's just "very good in a Frigate".
Make it 3 months, and you've achieved some/many of the other support certs (high velocity helmsman, etc). You're also in Cruisers/BC in this time. Make it 6 months, and you're "good" (bordering on very good) in a battleship ...
After that, it's getting things to L4/5 as necessary, filling out your T2 arsenal (you're probably just using T2 tank or guns at 6 months), and deciding whether or not to train this class or that class to L5... not to mention expanding your versatility (e.g. a new racial line of ships). |
Gerald Taric
Adamantium Industry
63
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 12:18:00 -
[99] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:My apologies for not correcting that mistake. Acceptet, although i'm not sure, what it would mean now.
Anyway:
Rising the training time would result in a stronger force to choose the wanted skills wisely. But it also would rise frustration, as it will take *too much* time to reach anything.
Lowering it too much would result in new people gaining "everything" too fast. As EVE has no fixed "endgame", we should not gain the feeling of possible reaching "the end". "Now i got all, i could quit, no challenges anymore."
I think, we reached something which could only evaluated in a subjective way.
As a common observable fact we could state, that not everyone can be pleased by a decission done. Especially not, if the amount of people being affected is getting high.
It looks like that many people are okay with the current situation.
How much do you want the training time being decreased? And what if - after that - the next one comes up with .... "it's (still) too much time for me ..." Where do you feel the preassure of needing less tringing time so much?
I personally am fine with the current situation. Yesterday i set some skills for another charakter for me to reach a "good drake fitting". Takes some days. But not that much, which would cause a "this is insane!"-feeling.
|
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp Bloodbound.
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 12:24:00 -
[100] - Quote
Jacob Holland wrote:You realise that there are characters in game who are (if I recall the max SP potential correctly) more than halfway through this yes?
Indeed.
Jacob Holland wrote:You realise that people like Dr Caymus were apparently running out of industrial and science skills at the time neural remaps came in yes?
Yes.
Jacob Holland wrote:You realise that, as a miner, you can reach the peak of your training and have to search for something else in around six months; as a broader Industrialist in a couple of years...?
Yeah.
Jacob Holland wrote:Have you looked at the threads from various characters looking for viable training routes because they feel they've trained everything they want to by 60 or 80 million SPs?
Yes, I have read a few threads like that.
Did you actually read my post? It doesn't seem like you did. None of what you posted causes any problems with what I suggested in my post.
Just in case you didn't read my post I shall copy it here for you:
Elzon1 wrote: The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much?
Simple suggestion: Take the character with the most SP and add 1 month's worth of SP on top of that. Now compress the time it takes to complete all skills to level V proportionately so that it equals that character's total training plus 1 month. After doing that give back the total SP lost in compressing all those skill times. Of course, you would do this for everyone.
Doing this will reduce everyone's training time without alienating those of the highest SP level.
I think this is an equitable suggestion and will help bring about a saner EVE.
Maybe it will help EVE out of beta a little bit too...
All I am proposing is that the max training time be set to what the highest SP character has plus 1 month.
After compressing all the skills down proportionately players are reimbursed SP accordingly.
After the SP reimbursement the highest SP player would have only 1 month left of training to do and then would run out of things to train.
Whenever a new skill is to be added all other skills get compressed proportionately a little bit and the new skill is shimmied in. Of course all players will be reimbursed their SP from the compression. If the player in question was previously maxed out then all he/she has to do is apply the reimbursed to the new skill and once again the player in question will be maxed out.
All I want is for CCP to establish a maximum training time and stick with it. The maximum of course decided by the max SP character so as to not alienate veterans. |
|
Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
344
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 12:28:00 -
[101] - Quote
Marcus Ichiro wrote:Training everything isn't the point. The point is that you're supposed to specialise.
The point is that they want you to buy multiple accounts.
... |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
318
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 12:29:00 -
[102] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:
ONE WORD REPLIES TO OTHER PEOPLES POSTS CONSISTING OF VARIATIONS OF THE WORD YES
LOTS AND LOTS OF RAMPANT STUPIDITY
MORE DRIBBLE
All I am proposing is that the max training time be set to what the highest SP character has plus 1 month.
After compressing all the skills down proportionately players are reimbursed SP accordingly.
After the SP reimbursement the highest SP player would have only 1 month left of training to do and then would run out of things to train.
Whenever a new skill is to be added all other skills get compressed proportionately a little bit and the new skill is shimmied in. Of course all players will be reimbursed their SP from the compression. If the player in question was previously maxed out then all he/she has to do is apply the reimbursed to the new skill and once again the player in question will be maxed out.
All I want is for CCP to establish a maximum training time and stick with it. The maximum of course decided by the max SP character so as to not alienate veterans.
There is no need, at all, whatsoever, for training times to be compressed. All your ideas are worthless, it's just that most people here are too polite to actually come right out and say it. Your idea is dumb, this thread is dumb and you should feel dumb for having done it. The fact that you don't understand WHY we don't need or want skill times reduced means that any further discussion with you on this topic is as pointless as two bald men fighting over a comb. Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7664
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 12:38:00 -
[103] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:All I am proposing is that the max training time be set to what the highest SP character has plus 1 month. After compressing all the skills down proportionately players are reimbursed SP accordingly. After the SP reimbursement the highest SP player would have only 1 month left of training to do and then would run out of things to train. GǪand the question remains: why?
What you're proposing makes no sense. It doesn't solve any problems. Having a GÇ£max training timeGÇ¥ is not GÇ£saneGÇ¥ (quite the opposite). All you're doing is devaluing years worth of SP for no good reason and frustrating those who have spent those years to get there. You're effectively removing the planning, specialisation, and decision-making properties of the skill system, all because you are a bit impatient and/or don't think things through before picking the skills you train. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
792
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 12:46:00 -
[104] - Quote
Ris Dnalor wrote:The point is that they want you to buy multiple accounts.
CCP is a business, not a charity. eh |
Neftaran
Broken Wheel Mercantile and Trading Company Li3 Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 13:54:00 -
[105] - Quote
This way they force a player that enjoys the game to purchase multiple accounts. This 'game' is super niche and does not attract volumes of customers so they must offset it somehow. |
Bloutok
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 14:05:00 -
[106] - Quote
Cry Baby: They nerfed my super specialized toon. I want my SP back
Troll: Eve is hard. Can i have your stuff ?
|
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
197
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 14:10:00 -
[107] - Quote
Quote:on the gameplay side the rationale is that EVE is all about meaningful trade-offs and that forced specialization encourages cooperation between players.
Though the reality is of course people just wind up with 2+ accounts and various specialized non-training alts. Which I'm not necessarily saying is a bad thing, but it has to be acknowledged in any discussion on the subject.
|
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 14:17:00 -
[108] - Quote
Neftaran wrote:This way they force a player that enjoys the game to purchase multiple accounts. This 'game' is super niche and does not attract volumes of customers so they must offset it somehow.
From 10 ive left 2 that will end in a single one once I've reached my goal with second char. It's tedious enough. brb |
Tauren Tom
Order of the Silver Dragons Silver Dragonz
60
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 14:23:00 -
[109] - Quote
I want to go to college and get a degree in EVERYTHING! MAKE COLLEGE SHORTER KKTHXBAI?! Naga stole my bike!
Talos, the official Pizza Wedge of the Gallente Federation. |
Cap'in Haddock
Haddock's Legitimate Trading
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 14:24:00 -
[110] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote: After the SP reimbursement the highest SP player would have only 1 month left of training to do and then would run out of things to train.
Running out of things to train?
DO NOT WANT
(Seriously, Listen to Chribba. Suckle at the teat of his knowledge) |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2009
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 14:29:00 -
[111] - Quote
Ideally you should never run out of things to train for, new skills to try and attain.
This applies both in and out of game. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Widow Cain
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 14:35:00 -
[112] - Quote
I think it [training] is just about perfect time wise. If I had gained faster I would not be able to afford the ships I could fly and would not know the things I need to know so I would just get blown up frustrated and not be here. OMG You are sooo pixel macho... |
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
275
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 14:51:00 -
[113] - Quote
The "don't change Eve it's perfect" crowd always comes out in force when this idea is proposed. The players with a nine-year training advantage aren't about to give that up. Eve is hard and should be harder. That's the only answer you'll ever get from this crowd. |
c4 t
Push Pharmaceuticals Push Interstellar Network
47
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 14:53:00 -
[114] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:The time it takes to train everything in EVE to it's maximum base potential doesn't seem very sane really. Isn't 18+ years of training a bit much?
Simple suggestion: Take the character with the most SP and add 1 month's worth of SP on top of that. Now compress the time it takes to complete all skills to level V proportionately so that it equals that character's total training plus 1 month. After doing that give back the total SP lost in compressing all those skill times. Of course, you would do this for everyone.
Doing this will reduce everyone's training time without alienating those of the highest SP level.
I think this is an equitable suggestion and will help bring about a saner EVE.
Maybe it will help EVE out of beta a little bit too...
**** you go away. This is exactly the kind of mentality we don't need in EVE. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2010
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 14:55:00 -
[115] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:The "don't change Eve it's perfect" crowd always comes out in force when this idea is proposed. The players with a nine-year training advantage aren't about to give that up. Eve is hard and should be harder. That's the only answer you'll ever get from this crowd.
Urban myth's are fun aren't they...
A 9 month old character can do the things he is specialized in just as well as I can, I can merely do a wider variety of things. Since I can't fly more than one ship at the same time, that's not much of an advantage now is it.
If you find yourself losing to an older character, it usually has little to do with his experience point total. I suppose it is nice to have something to blame your failure on that the uneducated will readily believe. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 15:05:00 -
[116] - Quote
Meh... get 18 alts and you could do it all in year :P |
Makkal Hanaya
Drakenburg
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 15:08:00 -
[117] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:How do you reduce the time it takes to train skills in general without reducing the time it takes to get to level 5? Without increasing the multiplier for level 5, reducing training time will impact that 18 years figure. You could implement a system where you gain skills rapidly at first, slow down after a while, and then slow to a crawl after a certain mark. It would be an extension of the current skill training philosophy, but based around total skill points instead of specific skills.
You could give specialization bonuses based around combat, industry, science, etc. If you're interested in training ship skills and that's almost all you do, then you train at an increased speed, but if you've specialized at ship skills and then try industry skills, it takes you longer than someone who's specialized in industry.
Those are just two systems but I could think of a couple more if your goal is to speed up training in individual skills while keeping an 18-year total for maxing all skills. although my eyes were open they might have just as well've been closed
|
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
213
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 15:10:00 -
[118] - Quote
bad post
1. the long training time means you have tough choices on what to train for 2. the long training time means there is no end-game in regards to training On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton where the dripping patchouli was more than scent, It was a sun-á |
Twulf
The Konvergent League Sanctuary Pact
88
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 15:20:00 -
[119] - Quote
Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything.
So confirming EvE is NOT a Sandbox then. End of Debate. Thanks for playing. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
138
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 15:21:00 -
[120] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:The "don't change Eve it's perfect" crowd always comes out in force when this idea is proposed. The players with a nine-year training advantage aren't about to give that up. Eve is hard and should be harder. That's the only answer you'll ever get from this crowd.
"This crowd" is the EvE Online players, you know, the people that CCP makes the game for.
Now, on the other hand, "your crowd" is the theme parkers whiners that have quit EvE months ago but still post every single day. If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
|
Gerald Taric
Adamantium Industry
65
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 15:57:00 -
[121] - Quote
Twulf wrote:Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. So confirming EvE is NOT a Sandbox then. End of Debate. Thanks for playing. *lol* We can't ride ponys in EVE, therefore it's not a sandbox?
Okay ...
[ EVE is neigher allmighty, nor unlimited. But despite that it has a wide range of possible activities (game content) within the given boundaries -> sandbox ]
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7673
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 17:08:00 -
[122] - Quote
Twulf wrote:Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. So confirming EvE is NOT a Sandbox then. End of Debate. Thanks for playing. Non sequitur. It's a sandbox regardless of whether you can or should train everything.
Ban Bindy wrote:The players with a nine-year training advantage aren't about to give that up. Here's the thing: nine years of training doesn't give you much in the way of advantage, compared to, say, one or two years. It's the assumption that it does that spawns these kinds of threads, and it's the inaccuracy of this assumption that makes the threads so bad. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
|
baltec1
1331
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 17:19:00 -
[123] - Quote
Over 6 years into this game and I still have many things to look forwards to when I get done training them. Name another MMO that offers you that. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2013
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 17:21:00 -
[124] - Quote
Twulf wrote:Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. So confirming EvE is NOT a Sandbox then. End of Debate. Thanks for playing.
Of course it is.
Now if you choose to spend your time in the sandbox making a futile attempt to count each grain of sand, that is your problem. There are no promises made that you will be able to succeed. When I check troll in the dictionary, it has a photo shopped picture of you standing somewhere in the vicinity of a point.
Also, I can kill you with my brain. |
Warpshade
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 17:26:00 -
[125] - Quote
confirming all skills should only take 30minutes to train. |
Ris Dnalor
Black Rebel Rifter Club
344
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 17:29:00 -
[126] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Ris Dnalor wrote:The point is that they want you to buy multiple accounts. CCP is a business, not a charity.
I never said it was bad. I just said it was.
... |
Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
72
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 17:33:00 -
[127] - Quote
Twulf wrote:Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. So confirming EvE is NOT a Sandbox then. End of Debate. Thanks for playing. you sound mad, fyi, I have 120m sp, jelly?? |
Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
29
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 18:09:00 -
[128] - Quote
considering i started training stuff i wont ever use.. like carriers on my main... no the skill training doesnt take to long. I say it is pretty spot onwith the removal of the learning skills, those where just a grind you had to endure. Now, i think.. yeah im happy with how it works.
and my main only has 50 mill or so SP. and yet she is done with what i am using her for. |
Gogela
Direct Action LLC.
802
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 18:18:00 -
[129] - Quote
Well... I for one think skills are lame and should be removed outright. This game is billed as a game "about doing stuff"... training skills isn't doing stuff. It's waiting. ...and it's a needless limiting factor imho. There will be a limit. If eve makes it another decade I would bet good money skills will be removed altogether.
'course maybe CCP will get to the point of being sick of the b****ing on the forums and just say "meh EvE as a service ends tomorrow... get ready for EvE 2 next month!" Global reset. Who knows...
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baltec1
1334
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 18:19:00 -
[130] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:Twulf wrote:Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. So confirming EvE is NOT a Sandbox then. End of Debate. Thanks for playing. you sound mad, fyi, I have 120m sp, jelly??
Not when you see the clone cost |
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baltec1
1334
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 18:20:00 -
[131] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Well... I for one think skills are lame and should be removed outright. This game is billed as a game "about doing stuff"... training skills isn't doing stuff. It's waiting. ...and it's a needless limiting factor imho. There will be a limit. If eve makes it another decade I would bet good money skills will be removed altogether.
'course maybe CCP will get to the point of being sick of the b****ing on the forums and just say "meh EvE as a service ends tomorrow... get ready for EvE 2 next month!" Global reset. Who knows...
Then what do we have to look forwards to? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7675
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 18:37:00 -
[132] - Quote
Gogela wrote:This game is billed as a game "about doing stuff"... training skills isn't doing stuff. It's waiting. Fortunately, it's also not GÇ£skill training, the gameGÇ¥, so the actual game is still about doing stuff.
GǪwell, unless you listen to the griefers in newbie corp chats who squawk on about how you must train everything to V before doing anything (which should be a bannable offense, really).
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Rustling
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 18:53:00 -
[133] - Quote
Vera Algaert wrote: on the gameplay side the rationale is that EVE is all about meaningful trade-offs and that forced specialization encourages cooperation between players.
You mean alt accounts right? |
Korsiri
Mousetrap Building Inc.
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 19:44:00 -
[134] - Quote
you obviously haven't had teenagers, nothing (no one's) sane at 18 :P If you didn't want people to suggest that you're saying you want to train all the skills, perhaps you shouldn't have compared the skill training system to training everything, which apparently takes 18 years (although that totally explains why there aren't any grown ups in Eve....) Anyway the point is, the system is one thing, training absolutely everything - quite another. Hence your fallacious argument.
And boo. So it takes RL time to train. I'm having fun my hubby's still having fun (after 7 years). You don't wait til skills are done to have fun.
Besides it's good to have a goal.
NB - trolling is not a goal.
It's just something to do when you could be playing Eve. (Unless you're a miner, then I totally get the troll, but watch that afk bro!)
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Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 19:46:00 -
[135] - Quote
Twulf wrote:Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. So confirming EvE is NOT a Sandbox then. End of Debate. Thanks for playing. If it takes 18+ years to train everything to level [5] then remember that it only takes about three years to train everything to level [4],
Now, granted that's not entirely possible as certain skills has prerequisite skills required at level [5] but they are in the distinct minority. I would imagine that even training all of those pre-reqs (note that's skill pre-reqs, not ship pre-reqs) still wouldn't bring the total above four years.
If you can have every single skill in the game to [4] in four years and could therefore do almost everything in the game just a little less efficiently than the Devs then how does that require a shortening of training time? Especially as those who have chosen to specialise will have already maxed out their chosen specialisation and are diversifying? |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
1208
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 19:49:00 -
[136] - Quote
Gerald Taric wrote:Twulf wrote:Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. So confirming EvE is NOT a Sandbox then. End of Debate. Thanks for playing. *lol* We can't ride ponys in EVE, therefore it's not a sandbox? Okay ... [ EVE is neigher allmighty, nor unlimited. But despite that it has a wide range of possible activities (game content) within the given boundaries -> sandbox ] I see what you did there. Rifterlings - Small gang lowsec combat corp specializing in frigates and cruisers (all races, not just Rifters!). US Timezone veterans and newbies alike are welcome to join. Come chat in the "we fly rifters" in-game channel. Free fitted frigates for members! |
Revajin
15 Minute Outliers Novus Dominatum
41
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 19:54:00 -
[137] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Gogela wrote:This game is billed as a game "about doing stuff"... training skills isn't doing stuff. It's waiting. Fortunately, it's also not Gǣskill training, the gameGǥ, so the actual game is still about doing stuff. GǪwell, unless you listen to the griefers in newbie corp chats who squawk on about how you must train everything to V before doing anything (which should be a bannable offense, really).
All your core skills must be V before you leave your starter station. Also you shouldn't pvp until you have at least 30 million skillpoints, you must only use Hurricanes, with all related defense and gunnery skills at V, you have to use the most expensive modules on the market, and solo pvp will get you killed every time so you have to be in a fleet with lots of other Canes to make sure you'll survive. |
Gerald Taric
Adamantium Industry
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 20:23:00 -
[138] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Gerald Taric wrote:[...] ponys [...] neigher I see what you did there. hm ... i don't understand ... apart from the typing error for "neither" ...
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Svarek
University of Caille Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 20:24:00 -
[139] - Quote
100 or so years is too short to live life. Man, I wish I had a few extra centuries so I could learn to do everything. Grandpa Bill: "I remember my uncle Joe who used to go mining, back then it was easy to get black lung, but we called it coughing lung because we really didnt care what color it was, the coughing seemed like it should be in the title since he did so much of it." |
Simetraz
State War Academy Caldari State
354
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 20:32:00 -
[140] - Quote
Revajin wrote:Tippia wrote:Gogela wrote:This game is billed as a game "about doing stuff"... training skills isn't doing stuff. It's waiting. Fortunately, it's also not Gǣskill training, the gameGǥ, so the actual game is still about doing stuff. GǪwell, unless you listen to the griefers in newbie corp chats who squawk on about how you must train everything to V before doing anything (which should be a bannable offense, really). All your core skills must be V before you leave your starter station. Also you shouldn't pvp until you have at least 30 million skillpoints, you must only use Hurricanes, with all related defense and gunnery skills at V, you have to use the most expensive modules on the market, and solo pvp will get you killed every time so you have to be in a fleet with lots of other Canes to make sure you'll survive.
Umm I think I messed something up. I like to fly a Intercepters. My clone is worth more then the ship and fittings combined EVERYBODY KNOWS |
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Silverdaddy
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 20:43:00 -
[141] - Quote
OK, I can't even begin to fathom how long it would take to learn all of the military equipment, technical and scientific trades, and the various occupations in the real world.
18 years seems like a bargain! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7689
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 20:45:00 -
[142] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Umm I think I messed something up. I like to fly a Intercepters. My clone is worth more then the ship and fittings combined Nah. That's how it should be.
Small ships 4lyfe and all that.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Daemon Ceed
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
156
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 20:48:00 -
[143] - Quote
Elzon1 wrote:Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. Did I suggest anyone train all the skills to level V, nope. Was I implying such a thing, nope. All I am after is to reduce the overall time it takes to train individual skills in general, not to train them all to level V. I am suggesting training in EVE simply takes too long in general and that reducing that time overall without harming the highest SP players as an equitable solution.
Deal with it. There area already too many nubs flying dual armor/shield tanked faction battleships with large, medium and small guns. If anything, they should make crap take longer to train. Post with your main or GTFO! The Sandbox = Play however the hell you want. |
Fredfredbug4
The Scope Gallente Federation
374
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 20:48:00 -
[144] - Quote
If your trying to train everything
Your doin it wrong.
Do be 100% honest, the fact that anyone can crosstrain to fly the battleship of every race in under a year means that training needs some serious balancing.
CCP should work towards finding the sweet spot between discouraging people to generalize and training time. |
Twulf
The Konvergent League Sanctuary Pact
88
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 20:51:00 -
[145] - Quote
Apolyon I wrote:Twulf wrote:Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. So confirming EvE is NOT a Sandbox then. End of Debate. Thanks for playing. you sound mad, fyi, I have 120m sp, jelly??
Not mad at all, just sick of hearing EvE is a Sandbox when it is not. It does have Sandbox elements but it is not a sandbox game, just like Everquest is not a themepark and it is not a Sandbox.
I have 6m SP and can fly all the ships I want to fly and fit them well enough to do PvE and PvP. All in Null. I have lived in Null since I had 3m SP, whats your point? |
Twulf
The Konvergent League Sanctuary Pact
88
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 20:53:00 -
[146] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:If your trying to train everything
Your doin it wrong.
Do be 100% honest, the fact that anyone can crosstrain to fly the battleship of every race in under a year means that training needs some serious balancing.
CCP should work towards finding the sweet spot between discouraging people to generalize and training time.
If EvE was in Fact a Sandbox then you would not need to specialize and generalizing your skills would be a valid tactic but as many people have posted in this thread, generalizing is bad and means you are playing it wrong. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7689
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 20:58:00 -
[147] - Quote
Twulf wrote:If EvE was in Fact a Sandbox then you would not need to specialize and generalizing your skills would be a valid tactic GǪand guess what? It is.
It won't make you as good at the specific things as someone who specialises, but it will make you better at all the things than they are. It's valid choice GÇö it just offers a different return than many (even most) people are interested in.
The fact that you can make that choice GÇö for better or worse GÇö is part of what makes it a sandbox. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Apolyon I
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
72
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 21:13:00 -
[148] - Quote
Twulf wrote:Apolyon I wrote:Twulf wrote:Martin0 wrote:Eve is about specialization. You are NOT supposed to train everything. So confirming EvE is NOT a Sandbox then. End of Debate. Thanks for playing. you sound mad, fyi, I have 120m sp, jelly?? Not mad at all, just sick of hearing EvE is a Sandbox when it is not. It does have Sandbox elements but it is not a sandbox game, just like Everquest is not a themepark and it is not a Sandbox. I have 6m SP and can fly all the ships I want to fly and fit them well enough to do PvE and PvP. All in Null. I have lived in Null since I had 3m SP, whats your point? then please do point out why Eve isn't a Sandbox game.
conclusion without proof is worthless
EDIT: I saw it, so all new players should be able to fly titan on their trial account, sound fun |
Flakey Foont
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 21:26:00 -
[149] - Quote
This is just another waaah I want it now threads.
Same poop different wrapper.
So sorry if I am being negative. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
807
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 21:36:00 -
[150] - Quote
Twulf wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:If your trying to train everything
Your doin it wrong.
Do be 100% honest, the fact that anyone can crosstrain to fly the battleship of every race in under a year means that training needs some serious balancing.
CCP should work towards finding the sweet spot between discouraging people to generalize and training time. If EvE was in Fact a Sandbox then you would not need to specialize and generalizing your skills would be a valid tactic but as many people have posted in this thread, generalizing is bad and means you are playing it wrong. Wrong. Generalization is always bad no mater what style of game because it takes longer for you to be as good as someone else in any given area if they had specialized.
Also, while you shouldn't generalize (cause its a stupid as mining afk) you can, because EVE is a sandboxish*.
*Its as close to sandbox that I have seen while still functioning. Much like a fully Communist nation wouldn't survive, but some come close. |
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Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
89
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 23:02:00 -
[151] - Quote
"But CCP, I WANT IT NOW!"
That is how I interpret your posting.
WOW is thataway----------------->
Oh, before you stomp out in a huff, can I haz ur stuff? "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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