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Annie Anomie
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
29
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Posted - 2012.06.05 15:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
Only PVP kills should yield capture points.
Discuss. |
Sokor Loro
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
43
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Posted - 2012.06.05 15:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Amount of kills or something similar to the LP system?
If it's the amount of kills, we are royally screwed.
If it's the LP system, the Minmatar are royally screwed. |
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
61
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Posted - 2012.06.05 15:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
I dig it, +1 Is sexy time? |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
255
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Posted - 2012.06.05 15:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
+1 Defense of system will involve bailing at every pvp encounter - which is pretty much what happens now in any Caldari held system. (not really, just a joke) |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
100
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Posted - 2012.06.05 16:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Annie Anomie wrote:Only PVP kills should yield capture points.
Discuss.
I understand the rationale behind it :) But, if that happens
a) System occupancy now becomes a contest of who can sit in a system and kill their alts faster b) Drama-llama (OMG YOU NOOB GAL MIL GUY STOP LOSING SHIPS YOU'RE MAKING IT SO I CAN'T DOCK IN MY SYSTEM).
OTOH, if somehow alts were removed I could "win" at system defence by playing more LoL... mmmm LoL :) |
Annie Anomie
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
30
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Posted - 2012.06.05 16:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Well I'm being slightly tongue in cheek to get some ideas going.
How do you get around system occupancy being determined by AFK button spinning alts?
I think any capture mechanic in FW should be a means to the end of PVP.
At present it is not.
How does this get fixed? |
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
9
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Posted - 2012.06.05 17:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Annie Anomie wrote:How do you get around system occupancy being determined by AFK button spinning alts?
I think any capture mechanic in FW should be a means to the end of PVP.
At present it is not.
How does this get fixed?
Just move to 0.0 already since that's what you would want FW to be anyway. |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
100
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Posted - 2012.06.05 17:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Annie Anomie wrote:Well I'm being slightly tongue in cheek to get some ideas going.
I know :)
Annie Anomie wrote: How do you get around system occupancy being determined by AFK button spinning alts?
I think any capture mechanic in FW should be a means to the end of PVP.
At present it is not.
How does this get fixed?
I think the current system is close: If they implement a "kill all rats before offensive plex capture" mechanic, that will require that the participant is at least somewhat active/fit in a ship appropriate for the plex. |
Ex0101
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2012.06.05 17:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
chatgris wrote: If they implement a "kill all rats before offensive plex capture" mechanic, that will require that the participant is at least somewhat active/fit in a ship appropriate for the plex.
This really is all that's needed for FW to become amazing.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
102
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Posted - 2012.06.05 17:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Also, this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1427713#post1427713 |
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
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Posted - 2012.06.05 17:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Annie Anomie wrote:Well I'm being slightly tongue in cheek to get some ideas going. I know :) Annie Anomie wrote: How do you get around system occupancy being determined by AFK button spinning alts?
I think any capture mechanic in FW should be a means to the end of PVP.
At present it is not.
How does this get fixed?
I think the current system is close: If they implement a "kill all rats before offensive plex capture" mechanic, that will require that the participant is at least somewhat active/fit in a ship appropriate for the plex.
Fightign for Amarr we basically have to kill all the rats anyway. It doesn't make it seem anymore like pvp. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
311
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Posted - 2012.06.05 17:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
Annie Anomie wrote:Only PVP kills should yield capture points.
Discuss.
how the hell is that going to work out?
"enemy please come to system X so i can kill you so i can take this system off you" - good luck with that. http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
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Posted - 2012.06.05 18:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Why does he say this should only be done for offensive plex timers? Why not all timers? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
102
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Posted - 2012.06.05 18:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Why does he say this should only be done for offensive plex timers? Why not all timers?
Makes sense to do it for all timers. Gives people an incentive to stay in the plex. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
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Posted - 2012.06.05 18:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Annie Anomie wrote:Well I'm being slightly tongue in cheek to get some ideas going.
How do you get around system occupancy being determined by AFK button spinning alts?
I think any capture mechanic in FW should be a means to the end of PVP.
At present it is not.
How does this get fixed?
Notify the plays where plexes are being attacked. That way they can defend them. Every day lots of plexes are taken when the enemy doesn't even know it. Thats why the alts work so well. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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marketjacker
Percussive Diplomacy PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
32
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Posted - 2012.06.06 00:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
A simple fix is if you open a plex then leave it the timer goes back to the star.t. No more ark rewarding fleeing pussies |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
226
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Posted - 2012.06.06 00:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
Annie Anomie wrote:Well I'm being slightly tongue in cheek to get some ideas going.
How do you get around system occupancy being determined by AFK button spinning alts?
I think any capture mechanic in FW should be a means to the end of PVP.
At present it is not.
How does this get fixed?
You fix it by not being lazy.. |
Commissar Veldt
Progressive State State Section 9
17
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Posted - 2012.06.06 01:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
I think its really simple:
Notify the players where plexes are being attacked. That way they can defend them. Every day lots of plexes are taken when the enemy doesn't even know it. Thats why the alts work so well.
You keep posting this in nearly every thread about faction warfare. Its a ridiculous idea. Absolutely ridiculous. You basically want free, easy intel 24 hours a day with zero effort.
Quite frankly, if you cannot be bothered to check the map and use some common sense (for example... Hmm Teimo is contested quite heavily so chances are there will be WT's there) then you do not deserve any kills/plexes. Lets face it, it is not hard to find people taking complexes at the moment. Post-inferno, both Black Rise and Placid have been absolute hot-beds of activity and looking at the success of the Republic I would say that its the same on both fronts. Gather your own intel.
You want people to stop plexing when your around? Then get out there and stop them. If they warp out of plex when you enter? Then its still a victory because you can now run the timer. If theyre plexing while your sleeping? Tough sh*t.
Stop this nonsense. It will never happen. |
Dynast
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
43
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Posted - 2012.06.06 02:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Annie Anomie wrote:Only PVP kills should yield capture points.
Discuss. I mean this in the nicest way, but have you actually thought about what the outcome of that ruleset would be?
Massive enemy-faction alt abuse. Best way to defend system: keep all pilots out of it. Logiblob instant tackle lamefests become the status quo (most return, least risk). |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
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Posted - 2012.06.06 03:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
Commissar Veldt wrote:Cearain wrote:
I think its really simple:
Notify the players where plexes are being attacked. That way they can defend them. Every day lots of plexes are taken when the enemy doesn't even know it. Thats why the alts work so well.
You keep posting this in nearly every thread about faction warfare. Its a ridiculous idea. Absolutely ridiculous. You basically want free, easy intel 24 hours a day with zero effort. Quite frankly, if you cannot be bothered to check the map and use some common sense (for example... Hmm Teimo is contested quite heavily so chances are there will be WT's there) then you do not deserve any kills/plexes. Lets face it, it is not hard to find people taking complexes at the moment. Post-inferno, both Black Rise and Placid have been absolute hot-beds of activity and looking at the success of the Republic I would say that its the same on both fronts. Gather your own intel. You want people to stop plexing when your around? Then get out there and stop them. If they warp out of plex when you enter? Then its still a victory because you can now run the timer. If theyre plexing while your sleeping? Tough sh*t. Stop this nonsense. It will never happen.
Are you running plexing alts or something? Why are you so afraid the other side will know where you are plexing?
There is nothing ridiculous about the militia notifying the rest of the militia when its complexes are being attacked or defended. In fact it is ridiculous they don't notify the rest of the militia.
As for your concern that this is "free" intel. I don't understand. Would it make you happy if we had to pay isk to have our militia notify us? Should only certain ranks in the militia get this intel? Make use of our otherwise useless ranks?
You may like warping around for hours in order to find a fight or 2. Or you may like that your alts can plex in places where no one knows about. But others want more frequent pvp. Eve lacks mechanics for frequent pvp and Faction war is a place that could deliver it.
Maybe you like it that it takes a long time to find good pvp. There are lots of places to go for that. Wormholes for one. You can hunt for very long periods of time. But if you join what is supposed to be a major war and openly attack a military complex you should expect the enemy will be notified. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution Amarr 7th Fleet
188
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Posted - 2012.06.06 03:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Terrible idea from OP. Far to easy to manipulate and as Maud said, you have to get them to come to a system to kill them to flip it. They will defend the remote systems by never going there!!!
chatgris wrote:Annie Anomie wrote:Well I'm being slightly tongue in cheek to get some ideas going. I know :) Annie Anomie wrote: How do you get around system occupancy being determined by AFK button spinning alts?
I think any capture mechanic in FW should be a means to the end of PVP.
At present it is not.
How does this get fixed?
I think the current system is close: If they implement a "kill all rats before offensive plex capture" mechanic, that will require that the participant is at least somewhat active/fit in a ship appropriate for the plex. I raised this with CCP at fanfest - requring the rats to be killed to cap the plex. NO MORE 6 DAY OLD MINNIES CAPTURING MAJOR'S WITH A RIFTER SOLO!!! One thing CCP is looking at is making it so the rats only spwan if no one is around to PvP you and reducing the number of rats but making them harder so they are more like "crap" pvpers instead of then pve content. Not sure how they will go, but an interesting idea.
Will the new FW be any good??? |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
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Posted - 2012.06.06 12:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
"It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), GǪ.111 faction warfare complexes were captured GǪ I did not kill anyone in the process..Gǥ Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00
Sadly nothing actually changed to prevent this from happening in the new system.
Faction war occupancy is still primarily a pve game.
Until we get notifications of our military complexes being attacked I think this will remain the same. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
212
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Posted - 2012.06.06 13:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cearain wrote:"It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), GǪ.111 faction warfare complexes were captured GǪ I did not kill anyone in the process..Gǥ Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00
Sadly nothing actually changed to prevent this from happening in the new system.
Faction war occupancy is still primarily a pve game.
Until we get notifications of our military complexes being attacked I think this will remain the same.
Good God, quoting from Ankh to support pvp ideeas ? Know your crowd dude, know your crowd ... |
Peteris G
Ophidia in herba
0
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Posted - 2012.06.06 13:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Annie Anomie wrote:Only PVP kills should yield capture points.
Discuss.
According to texts I seen so far in forums one of things that Gallente militia does complain about is caldari higher alt capabilities (that does button spinning). But another use of alts would be... shoot them
1. Caldari creates lot of alts in gallente militia 2. Warp to safe spot in system that will be target for capture. 3. His alts warps to him 4. Shot all alts repeatedly. 5. Profit! I would estimate that Gallente will loose all systems in about week.
As member of caldari militia I strongly support this!
P.S. Another side effect will be - in system close to capture nobody will show up except Your own alts that You will shoot (does not sound very pvperryyy ) |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
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Posted - 2012.06.06 13:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
Lock out wrote:Cearain wrote:"It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), GǪ.111 faction warfare complexes were captured GǪ I did not kill anyone in the process..Gǥ Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00
Sadly nothing actually changed to prevent this from happening in the new system.
Faction war occupancy is still primarily a pve game.
Until we get notifications of our military complexes being attacked I think this will remain the same. Good God, quoting from Ankh to support pvp ideeas ? Know your crowd dude, know your crowd ...
I doubt my meaning is coming accross correctly.
My point is that carebears like ank are what the current mechanics (at least the ones that lead to consequences) still cater too. Nothing changed in inferno to make occupancy plexing more pvp oriented. We just added consequences to the sort of carebearing she did. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Dynast
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
43
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Posted - 2012.06.06 13:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cearain wrote:My point is that carebears like ank are what the current mechanics (at least the ones that lead to consequences) still cater too. Nothing changed in inferno to make occupancy plexing more pvp oriented. We just added consequences to the sort of carebearing she did. And judging by how FW PvP has increased by an order of magnitude, the changes made did in fact make plexes more PvP oriented. They made the outcome of plexing (or lack of plexing) impact game elements which are vital in PvP (ability to dock, access to stations). Plexing has always been structed with PvP in mind, it just never really 'took' outside of a small subset of FW diehards because it was disconnected from the rest of the game and didn't matter for ****. Making it matter, allowed the structure of FW plexes to serve its intended purpose. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
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Posted - 2012.06.06 14:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
Dynast wrote:Cearain wrote:My point is that carebears like ank are what the current mechanics (at least the ones that lead to consequences) still cater too. Nothing changed in inferno to make occupancy plexing more pvp oriented. We just added consequences to the sort of carebearing she did. And judging by how FW PvP has increased by an order of magnitude, the changes made did in fact make plexes more PvP oriented. They made the outcome of plexing (or lack of plexing) impact game elements which are vital in PvP (ability to dock, access to stations). Plexing has always been structed with PvP in mind, it just never really 'took' outside of a small subset of FW diehards because it was disconnected from the rest of the game and didn't matter for ****. Making it matter, allowed the structure of FW plexes to serve its intended purpose.
I do agree that abiltity to dock is important to your ability to pvp.
I also agree that plexing was likely structured with pvp in mind.
However to say it never really took because it was meaningless and disconnected is only partly true.
It took pretty well for the caldari who took all the gallente systems. It just didn't really take for the gallente.
You are right that part of the reason it didn't take for the gallente was because it had no significance. But there is another important reason why it didn't/doesn't take for many pvpers.
That reason is because it is best done pve style like ank did it. Its not that people in general didn't want to pvp back in 2008. I wouldn't be surprised is there was just as much pvp per player back then as there is now. The problem was, and remains, that occupancy plexing is still best done in a pve ship and avoiding pvp.
Get your alts out and orbit as many buttons as you can. If you don't do that you are not fighting for your faction as effeciently as you could. The fights at gates or even in plexes when you then just warp out after killing them doesn't do much, if anything, for occupancy. The disconnect is between the pvp and the occupancy/consequences. Get angry at people when they warp off when you come all you want. But they are actually doing the plexing smart - in terms of the consequences ccp gave.
This is is just a fact of the current mechanics. A few people understand this. Others don't really get it, so they still value who is winning the war as if it is something to be proud of. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
256
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Posted - 2012.06.06 14:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
Cearain wrote: My point is that carebears like ank are what the current mechanics (at least the ones that lead to consequences) still cater too. Nothing changed in inferno to make occupancy plexing more pvp oriented. We just added consequences to the sort of carebearing she did.
To be completely fair to CCP, they stated that was exactly what they were going to do. This iteration was consequences/rewards. The next iteration is on plexing mechanics. Therefore, the "consequences/rewards" portion of FW that CCP has implemented has increased pvp by quite a bit.
Right now plexing DOES matter and DOES lead to fights - in and near systems where station lockout matters to the residents. So that part is working. Increased pvp.
Farmers and those purely interested in occupancy for epeen reasons are gonna "efficiently plex" systems where station lockout doesn't matter. I'm amazed at how much "efficient plexing" is occuring by Caldari, but there are also several Caldari pvp groups out there who have entered FW as well. The combination of the two is really kicking our butts atm. Lots of fun though against the more pvp oriented types. And like chatgris said, if the increased pvp comes at the cost of losing systems then it was well worth it. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
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Posted - 2012.06.06 15:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: My point is that carebears like ank are what the current mechanics (at least the ones that lead to consequences) still cater too. Nothing changed in inferno to make occupancy plexing more pvp oriented. We just added consequences to the sort of carebearing she did.
To be completely fair to CCP, they stated that was exactly what they were going to do. This iteration was consequences/rewards. The next iteration is on plexing mechanics. Therefore, the "consequences/rewards" portion of FW that CCP has implemented has increased pvp by quite a bit. Right now plexing DOES matter and DOES lead to fights - in and near systems where station lockout matters to the residents. So that part is working. Increased pvp. Farmers and those purely interested in occupancy for epeen reasons are gonna "efficiently plex" systems where station lockout doesn't matter. I'm amazed at how much "efficient plexing" is occuring by Caldari, but there are also several Caldari pvp groups out there who have entered FW as well. The combination of the two is really kicking our butts atm. Lots of fun though against the more pvp oriented types. And like chatgris said, if the increased pvp comes at the cost of losing systems then it was well worth it.
Ok I do agree that plexing does lead to fights. It lead to fights before inferno and it still leads to fights.
Lets leave station lock outs aside for a second.
You are right ccp decided to add consequences before they addressed the problems with plexing being an unbalanced, pve activity. (You would think they would make the game fair and bug free *before* they start heaping on consequences but whatever)
Now I see that they are going to address the imbalances of the npcs but they are not going to do anything to make it less of a pve activity.
Damarr may have chased Ank out of faction war, I don't know. But really that was due to personal animosity more than any sort of efficient tactic. Who really wants to spend their time online chasing after pve ships that just run away?
You say:
"Farmers and those purely interested in occupancy for epeen reasons are gonna "efficiently plex" systems where station lockout doesn't matter."
But its not for "epeen reasons."
First, station lock outs matter where ever you are unless you base all your ships outside the warzone and never want to dock anywhere else.
Second, all of the consequences ccp introduced are based on occupancy plexing. (with the possible exception of pvp for kills but even that lp is going to be valued based on the occupancy war.) So to say plexing as efficiently as possible is just for their "epeen" is a bit odd. Its doing the activities that the mechanics are set up to reward.
Those doing plexing as efficiently as they can are doing the central activity that all the consequences for faction war are based on. IMO, the fact that it is done most efficiently as a pve activity is a problem. The strategies should be based on how we can gain systems. Unfortunately the best strategies to do that would mainly involve pve. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
257
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Posted - 2012.06.06 16:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
Ok I do agree that plexing does lead to fights. It lead to fights before inferno and it still leads to fights.
Lets leave station lock outs aside for a second.
You are right ccp decided to add consequences before they addressed the problems with plexing being an unbalanced, pve activity. (You would think they would make the game fair and bug free *before* they start heaping on consequences but whatever)
Time to move on from this. They made their decision and it's lead to massive increase in pvp.
Quote: Now I see that they are going to address the imbalances of the npcs but they are not going to do anything to make it less of a pve activity.
We'll see. Longer term they have stated they are looking at more than just NPC balance.
Quote:You say:
"Farmers and those purely interested in occupancy for epeen reasons are gonna "efficiently plex" systems where station lockout doesn't matter."
But its not for "epeen reasons."
Fair enough. For LP store rewards *AND* e-peen reason. E-peen is still a main driver for some players.
Quote: First, station lock outs matter where ever you are unless you base all your ships outside the warzone and never want to dock anywhere else.
Station lockout of specific systems where my friends and i base matter much more than lockouts of systems far from where we base.We defend our home systems more rigorously than other places.
Quote:Those doing plexing as efficiently as they can are doing the central activity that all the consequences for faction war are based on. IMO, the fact that it is done most efficiently as a pve activity is a problem. The strategies should be based on how we can gain systems. Unfortunately the best strategies to do that would mainly involve pve. Agreed that they are doing the majority of the work for the LP store rewards. The station lockout consequence, however, is solar system dependent and is only controlled by "efficient plexers" where pvp groups do not base (or are not interested in). |
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