|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 17:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Annie Anomie wrote:Well I'm being slightly tongue in cheek to get some ideas going. I know :) Annie Anomie wrote: How do you get around system occupancy being determined by AFK button spinning alts?
I think any capture mechanic in FW should be a means to the end of PVP.
At present it is not.
How does this get fixed?
I think the current system is close: If they implement a "kill all rats before offensive plex capture" mechanic, that will require that the participant is at least somewhat active/fit in a ship appropriate for the plex.
Fightign for Amarr we basically have to kill all the rats anyway. It doesn't make it seem anymore like pvp. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 18:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why does he say this should only be done for offensive plex timers? Why not all timers? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 18:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Annie Anomie wrote:Well I'm being slightly tongue in cheek to get some ideas going.
How do you get around system occupancy being determined by AFK button spinning alts?
I think any capture mechanic in FW should be a means to the end of PVP.
At present it is not.
How does this get fixed?
Notify the plays where plexes are being attacked. That way they can defend them. Every day lots of plexes are taken when the enemy doesn't even know it. Thats why the alts work so well. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 03:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Commissar Veldt wrote:Cearain wrote:
I think its really simple:
Notify the players where plexes are being attacked. That way they can defend them. Every day lots of plexes are taken when the enemy doesn't even know it. Thats why the alts work so well.
You keep posting this in nearly every thread about faction warfare. Its a ridiculous idea. Absolutely ridiculous. You basically want free, easy intel 24 hours a day with zero effort. Quite frankly, if you cannot be bothered to check the map and use some common sense (for example... Hmm Teimo is contested quite heavily so chances are there will be WT's there) then you do not deserve any kills/plexes. Lets face it, it is not hard to find people taking complexes at the moment. Post-inferno, both Black Rise and Placid have been absolute hot-beds of activity and looking at the success of the Republic I would say that its the same on both fronts. Gather your own intel. You want people to stop plexing when your around? Then get out there and stop them. If they warp out of plex when you enter? Then its still a victory because you can now run the timer. If theyre plexing while your sleeping? Tough sh*t. Stop this nonsense. It will never happen.
Are you running plexing alts or something? Why are you so afraid the other side will know where you are plexing?
There is nothing ridiculous about the militia notifying the rest of the militia when its complexes are being attacked or defended. In fact it is ridiculous they don't notify the rest of the militia.
As for your concern that this is "free" intel. I don't understand. Would it make you happy if we had to pay isk to have our militia notify us? Should only certain ranks in the militia get this intel? Make use of our otherwise useless ranks?
You may like warping around for hours in order to find a fight or 2. Or you may like that your alts can plex in places where no one knows about. But others want more frequent pvp. Eve lacks mechanics for frequent pvp and Faction war is a place that could deliver it.
Maybe you like it that it takes a long time to find good pvp. There are lots of places to go for that. Wormholes for one. You can hunt for very long periods of time. But if you join what is supposed to be a major war and openly attack a military complex you should expect the enemy will be notified. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 12:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
"It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), GǪ.111 faction warfare complexes were captured GǪ I did not kill anyone in the process..Gǥ Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00
Sadly nothing actually changed to prevent this from happening in the new system.
Faction war occupancy is still primarily a pve game.
Until we get notifications of our military complexes being attacked I think this will remain the same. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 13:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lock out wrote:Cearain wrote:"It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), GǪ.111 faction warfare complexes were captured GǪ I did not kill anyone in the process..Gǥ Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00
Sadly nothing actually changed to prevent this from happening in the new system.
Faction war occupancy is still primarily a pve game.
Until we get notifications of our military complexes being attacked I think this will remain the same. Good God, quoting from Ankh to support pvp ideeas ? Know your crowd dude, know your crowd ...
I doubt my meaning is coming accross correctly.
My point is that carebears like ank are what the current mechanics (at least the ones that lead to consequences) still cater too. Nothing changed in inferno to make occupancy plexing more pvp oriented. We just added consequences to the sort of carebearing she did. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 14:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Dynast wrote:Cearain wrote:My point is that carebears like ank are what the current mechanics (at least the ones that lead to consequences) still cater too. Nothing changed in inferno to make occupancy plexing more pvp oriented. We just added consequences to the sort of carebearing she did. And judging by how FW PvP has increased by an order of magnitude, the changes made did in fact make plexes more PvP oriented. They made the outcome of plexing (or lack of plexing) impact game elements which are vital in PvP (ability to dock, access to stations). Plexing has always been structed with PvP in mind, it just never really 'took' outside of a small subset of FW diehards because it was disconnected from the rest of the game and didn't matter for ****. Making it matter, allowed the structure of FW plexes to serve its intended purpose.
I do agree that abiltity to dock is important to your ability to pvp.
I also agree that plexing was likely structured with pvp in mind.
However to say it never really took because it was meaningless and disconnected is only partly true.
It took pretty well for the caldari who took all the gallente systems. It just didn't really take for the gallente.
You are right that part of the reason it didn't take for the gallente was because it had no significance. But there is another important reason why it didn't/doesn't take for many pvpers.
That reason is because it is best done pve style like ank did it. Its not that people in general didn't want to pvp back in 2008. I wouldn't be surprised is there was just as much pvp per player back then as there is now. The problem was, and remains, that occupancy plexing is still best done in a pve ship and avoiding pvp.
Get your alts out and orbit as many buttons as you can. If you don't do that you are not fighting for your faction as effeciently as you could. The fights at gates or even in plexes when you then just warp out after killing them doesn't do much, if anything, for occupancy. The disconnect is between the pvp and the occupancy/consequences. Get angry at people when they warp off when you come all you want. But they are actually doing the plexing smart - in terms of the consequences ccp gave.
This is is just a fact of the current mechanics. A few people understand this. Others don't really get it, so they still value who is winning the war as if it is something to be proud of. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 15:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: My point is that carebears like ank are what the current mechanics (at least the ones that lead to consequences) still cater too. Nothing changed in inferno to make occupancy plexing more pvp oriented. We just added consequences to the sort of carebearing she did.
To be completely fair to CCP, they stated that was exactly what they were going to do. This iteration was consequences/rewards. The next iteration is on plexing mechanics. Therefore, the "consequences/rewards" portion of FW that CCP has implemented has increased pvp by quite a bit. Right now plexing DOES matter and DOES lead to fights - in and near systems where station lockout matters to the residents. So that part is working. Increased pvp. Farmers and those purely interested in occupancy for epeen reasons are gonna "efficiently plex" systems where station lockout doesn't matter. I'm amazed at how much "efficient plexing" is occuring by Caldari, but there are also several Caldari pvp groups out there who have entered FW as well. The combination of the two is really kicking our butts atm. Lots of fun though against the more pvp oriented types. And like chatgris said, if the increased pvp comes at the cost of losing systems then it was well worth it.
Ok I do agree that plexing does lead to fights. It lead to fights before inferno and it still leads to fights.
Lets leave station lock outs aside for a second.
You are right ccp decided to add consequences before they addressed the problems with plexing being an unbalanced, pve activity. (You would think they would make the game fair and bug free *before* they start heaping on consequences but whatever)
Now I see that they are going to address the imbalances of the npcs but they are not going to do anything to make it less of a pve activity.
Damarr may have chased Ank out of faction war, I don't know. But really that was due to personal animosity more than any sort of efficient tactic. Who really wants to spend their time online chasing after pve ships that just run away?
You say:
"Farmers and those purely interested in occupancy for epeen reasons are gonna "efficiently plex" systems where station lockout doesn't matter."
But its not for "epeen reasons."
First, station lock outs matter where ever you are unless you base all your ships outside the warzone and never want to dock anywhere else.
Second, all of the consequences ccp introduced are based on occupancy plexing. (with the possible exception of pvp for kills but even that lp is going to be valued based on the occupancy war.) So to say plexing as efficiently as possible is just for their "epeen" is a bit odd. Its doing the activities that the mechanics are set up to reward.
Those doing plexing as efficiently as they can are doing the central activity that all the consequences for faction war are based on. IMO, the fact that it is done most efficiently as a pve activity is a problem. The strategies should be based on how we can gain systems. Unfortunately the best strategies to do that would mainly involve pve. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
457
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 16:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
I agree for the most part.
But would point out a few things:
1) Pvpers only base out of a de minimis number of systems. For example, Minmatar can easilly get all the highest economic rewards and completely ignore Kamela and Sahtogas.
2) To the extent you say epeen is the driver to do plexes then you are to that extent saying consequences added by ccp are not the driver. I don't really care whether its epeen or isk that drives people. I just want some sort of sensible backdrop to this war. I want a larger context that my pvp efforts fit into. Currently pvp efforts are too far removed from the new consequences. Alt plexing is the most efficient way to actually garner the rewarding consequences ccp added.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
458
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jones Bones wrote:Cearain wrote:
1) Pvpers only base out of a de minimis number of systems. For example, Minmatar can easilly get all the highest economic rewards and completely ignore Kamela and Sahtogas.
Minmatar have lost 3 systems in just a few days. They have too many systems too defend and Amarr can easily defend what they have (see: Said). I would say, working as intended.
I do agree its working as intended and kudos to ccp in this aspect of balance. But I don't think its because there are "too many systems to defend." The amount of territory you can defend is a matter of how many players you have and the amarr don't have allot more players. And indeed since they can dock throughout minmatar have some advantage. One reason I think we took a few systems has more to do with the whole no lp for defensive plexing bit. CCP using the selfishness of its playerbase as a balance mechanic is pretty cool. Regardless of whether it works int he end.
There are other reasons why we took systems as well.
Jones Bones wrote:Quote: 2) To the extent you say epeen is the driver to do plexes then you are to that extent saying consequences added by ccp are not the driver. I don't really care whether its epeen or isk that drives people. I just want some sort of sensible backdrop to this war. I want a larger context that my pvp efforts fit into. Currently pvp efforts are too far removed from the new consequences. Alt plexing is the most efficient way to actually garner the rewarding consequences ccp added.
LP means nothing to me really, but I really want the Dal/Auga/Sis/Vard pocket. So that is where I spend my time plexing. Call it ePeen or whatever, I have a "purpose". PVE might matter the most from 0-50% contested. But once you are in the most contested systems you will face PVP as your goals contradict those of the other faction. We're getting constant fights in systems that are being actively plexed, both offensive and defensive.
I would much prefer more isk to less isk myself. So I admit being a greedy bastard motiviated by isk.
To get a system to 50% contested is allot of pve.
My limitted plexing has been going on in the same systems you called out. Auga and dal were completely decontested Siseide at like 10%.
Jones Bones wrote: BTW, the "button orbiting" alts have little affect on FW. The only way to take a system is for there to be a concentrated effort to do so. 39 hours of plexing (that's 116 total offensive plexs ran) is not going to be affected by alts in stabbed frigates.
Why do you think the systems you have been plexing are completely decontested? Jones welcome to the world of faction war plexing.
But to be fair, I will admit the last 2 times I logged on plenty of minmatar were willing to fight. The mechanic may be flawed but as long as the minmatar don't take too much advantage of the flaw, I guess it shouldn't bother me.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
458
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Annie Anomie wrote:Should a system flip without PVP happening?
Minmatar don't need another excuse to avoid pvp.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
458
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 20:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:Cearain wrote:Annie Anomie wrote:Should a system flip without PVP happening?
Minmatar don't need another excuse to avoid pvp. Neither do Gallente.. They complain on the forums about losing systems & being out plexed, but truth is they never show up to the bunkers and they rarely bother to do any defensive plexing. They run off and farm LP's for offensive plexes but never defend, then sit here on the forums and complain that Caldari are taking their systems. Meanwhile Caldari has decent amount of defenders because we aren't lazy, and we go more than 3 jumps from our home systems to defend. There have been a few systems of Caldari's that have hit 80-90% contested and Caldari has defended each. Meanwhile Gal systems keep going vulnerable. Much less the bulk of the systems Caldari have captured have been with-in a few jumps of Gallente home systems. Meaning it's not like we are capturing systems all over the map, aside from Ladister (which is 2 jumps from Heydieles anyway).
Thats great, son. I am very proud of you. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
|
|
|