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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
DJ FunkyBacon
Eve Radio Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.15 15:47:00 -
[1]
Edited by: DJ FunkyBacon on 15/09/2009 15:47:20
In case any teams making it to the final weekend missed the commentary on this last Saturday's Round Table, I had a discussion with CCP Claw, CCP Soundwave, Crovan and TeaDaze about the HAM Drake.
To my knowledge we have not seen one yet, as most drakes seem to be set up for the "too much tank, not enough gank" passive setup. It is my opinion that no one would see a HAM drake for what it was until it was in someone's face ripping it off, since many drakes are seen as a joke for DPS and left to kill for later in the match.
All 4 parties above have quite adamantly told me that a HAM drake would be massive fail in the tournament, but I think it would be far less fail than a passive drake, and people seem to be willing to put those on their teams.
I really want to rub the win that I think a HAM drake is (over a passive drake) into Dev and expert faces.
This Thursday I will be taking up a collection during my regular show, and if I see a team this weekend field at least one noticeable HAM drake and win with it, I will pay 500 million (plus whatever I'm able to scrounge up which could make this a billion perhaps) to that team.
I will then dance around and sing a song about "I told you the HAM Drake is win" during the round table following that day's matches.
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CCP Soundwave
C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.15 15:49:00 -
[2]
To my knowledge, no one should be bringing Drakes to the tournament, ever.
EVER
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Ran Khanon
Amarr
The Phantom Acolytes
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Posted - 2009.09.15 16:14:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: CCP Soundwave
To my knowledge, no one should be bringing Drakes to the tournament, ever.
EVER
It is true then. Both CCP and all the reporters hate drakes. Do you realize that if drakes would be sentient they would feel terribly rejected right now?
This makes me sad and hungry.
*devours a fried chicken*
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Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.09.15 16:23:00 -
[4]
I'd bring a ham drake over any other bc, except maybe the harbinger.
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Zemi Dahut
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 16:29:00 -
[5]
Friends don't let friends use HAM Drakes.
Just say no.
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ArrogantGod
Renegade Circus Midgets
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Posted - 2009.09.15 16:45:00 -
[6]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
To my knowledge, no one should be bringing Drakes to the tournament, ever.
EVER
Then you need to look at the rules.
Drakes counter heavy ECM warfare.
Drakes are countered by heavy tanking.
Unlimited ECM + limited tanking = Drakes!
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el M
Caldari
Combinatul Chimic
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Posted - 2009.09.15 17:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
To my knowledge, no one should be bringing Drakes to the tournament, ever.
EVER
The solution is simple. Nerf the darned thing back to stone age :) .
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aspiring carebear |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.09.15 18:23:00 -
[8]
dont touch my 700dps caldari BC. mind you!
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Suas
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.09.15 18:29:00 -
[9]
The Drake argument is getting old and stupid. The commentators are pretty clueless about it.
Drakes are great if used correctly, but not if used like this.
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HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE! |
Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2009.09.15 18:33:00 -
[10]
The Drake is never primary, why tank it at all? All out damage and some gizmos in the mids to help the overall plan.
A tanked Drake doesn't do much good no but I doubt anyone is bringing the regular type Drake.
Delenda est achura. |
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Suas
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.09.15 18:34:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Wendat Huron
The Drake is never primary, why tank it at all? All out damage and some gizmos in the mids to help the overall plan.
A tanked Drake doesn't do much good no but I doubt anyone is bringing the regular type Drake.
Except, of course, EVE Uni...
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HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE! |
Xorth Adimus
Caldari
The Perfect Storm
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.09.15 20:18:00 -
[12]
There is no such thing as a fail drake only a fail setup/pilot
GC can show you how to use a drake to melt faces..
If only we had used them in our first round rather then failcons. 
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Dante Edmundo
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Posted - 2009.09.15 20:37:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 15/09/2009 20:48:07
Statistically Drakes are not doing bad at all this tournament. In round 2 they were the 5th most deployed ship, and were on the winning side 63% of the time, which is really good and shows they are not losing alot. They also have an excellent ship-loss ratio of 42%.
I agree with some of the previous posts that it is important to keep in mind the context in which we are watching these PvP fights, and that the ships being deployed in the setups are not necessarily the best ships in other combat environments such as low-sec or null-sec.
We have already seen a significant bias toward Caldari hulls, which however does not mean the Caldari's have the best PvP ships of the 4 factions by any means.
Situational Awareness is SO important in PvP, so we do see the tourney rules indeed having an impact on the setups being deployed.
We can also see how "Situational Awareness" can be used effectively to outwit your opponent, given Pandemic Legion's powerful display of what many of us assumed was a total fail setup: bombers, Kitsune electronic attack ships ... etc. And yet PL demolished their opponent.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.09.16 04:56:00 -
[14]
Shield power relays/purgers on pvp drake is the worst possible ship in the game, its a selfish ship that does **** all for its teammates. I hate them with a passion. My Thrasher does more damage ffs.
HAM drakes are fail in this tournament because a proper heavy missile drake (3x damage mods) - does nearly as much damage at 3x the range and so eliminates hostile support really well.
In tranq the range isn't as useful because you need to tackle things - so if you're fitting a point you may as well go max dps with HAMs. If you're going for range use a cerb. Cerbs suck in the tournament because you have to warp in at 50km and the field is small enough that being able to spam missiles to 250km isn't really all that useful.
Thats why you see a lot of heavy missile drakes instead of HAM drakes, and why passive regen drakes are gay.
Important Internet Spaceship League Wants You |
Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:50:00 -
[15]
The main advantage of Heavy over HAM is the range. While you will do great damage at close range with Rage HAMs if the target is tackled and painted you will also put yourself in the middle of enemy short range dps. It is why the Brutix despite it's cheap cost and brutal short range damage usually dies in a fire long before it achieves much.
If you do high damage up close and are sacrificing tank for dps then you are likely to be a high priority for the opposition.
A good medium range heavy missile drake will probably live a whole lot longer and contribute a whole lot more to the fight.
A HAM Drake would, however, suit a suicidal shock and awe setup where you are rushing in with Brutixes and other explosive short range ships, you actually want them to shoot the drake because one would probably last longer than two Brutix. 
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2009.09.16 09:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Omarvelous
HAM drakes are fail in this tournament because a proper heavy missile drake (3x damage mods) - does nearly as much damage at 3x the range and so eliminates hostile support really well.
Without impants and 3xBCUs you are looking at 545dps for just Terror Rage missiles vs 445dps for Scourge Furies so it is 100dp, 100 dps difference on a heavy missile Drake is a 22% variance. It is a fair bit.
It is more than just a pure number difference, it also comes down to tactics. If you have a HAM setup you will be within range to use various modules that wont be of much use at longer range, if you get jammed at longer range and have a number of volleys in transit you can lose a big chunk of dps even if you only get jammed infrequently.
HAM Drake would suit a charge up close setup moreso than a Heavy setup would. Heavy Drake would suit a setup where you wanted to battle at range or battle spread out where you maximise travel time for the opposition to each of your ships.
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Shade Millith
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:38:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Veldya
Originally by: Omarvelous
HAM drakes are fail in this tournament because a proper heavy missile drake (3x damage mods) - does nearly as much damage at 3x the range and so eliminates hostile support really well.
Without impants and 3xBCUs you are looking at 545dps for just Terror Rage missiles vs 445dps for Scourge Furies so it is 100dp, 100 dps difference on a heavy missile Drake is a 22% variance. It is a fair bit.
It is more than just a pure number difference, it also comes down to tactics. If you have a HAM setup you will be within range to use various modules that wont be of much use at longer range, if you get jammed at longer range and have a number of volleys in transit you can lose a big chunk of dps even if you only get jammed infrequently.
HAM Drake would suit a charge up close setup moreso than a Heavy setup would. Heavy Drake would suit a setup where you wanted to battle at range or battle spread out where you maximise travel time for the opposition to each of your ships.
It also depends on how long the match ends up going for (not that you'd ever know before hand). As a HAMDrake, unlike most other BC's, cannot fit a capbooster.
So the MWD combined with the almost continous running of at least 2 invul fields, will eventually leave it fairly dead in the water. So Heavy missiles would be better.
And comes into how much DPS you'd loose while moving between targets.
In a controlled environment with no warping out, it's a tough call, but heavies will usually win out.
(And I think a Drake touched Soundwave inappropriately when he was young :< )
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:37:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Veldya
Without impants and 3xBCUs you are looking at 545dps for just Terror Rage missiles vs 445dps for Scourge Furies so it is 100dp, 100 dps difference on a heavy missile Drake is a 22% variance. It is a fair bit.
You shouldn't look on only at the dps.
Like others alread mentioned, the ham launcher need more grid. Grid is more of an issue on drakes than cpu.
But the more important reason to use hm over ham is the quality of the dps.
Terror Rage: explosion velocity: 139.5, explosion radius 180 (radius skill doesn't apply to hams).
Scrouge Fury: explosion velocity: 145.5, explosion radius (161.2)
The heavy missile has a 4.3% better explosion velocity AND 23.7 % better explosion radius.
Those two combined can make it do more damage on small or fast ships.
In addition to that you have 75km range on the fury heavy but only 18.1 on the terror rage. You'll have to be at at least ~16km range for the missile to hit (speed x flight time isn't the real missile range).
All that facts combined make the hm clearly better than ham, especially if you have to expect that people bring small/fast stuff or might have a range of more than 16km to you.
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CCP Claw
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Posted - 2009.09.17 01:01:00 -
[19]
mmmm, ham.
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Rip Striker
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Posted - 2009.09.17 06:37:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Rip Striker on 17/09/2009 06:38:35
If you want a shield tanking team
If you have a logisticis (shield) in the team
If you want to dish out roar damage at close range
If you want to tear up the opposing team
Bring 2x HAM Drakes! With almost all skills to level 5, 3x ballistics, and damage boosting implants they will dish out almost 1300 kinetic dps in total. As you all know, kinetic dps works pretty good against T1 hulls. Drones are not included to the dps as they will most likely be shield bots or ecm. If you add dps drones add another 200 to the total dps.
The same goes for the Nighthawk. 2x HAM fitted NHs will dish out 1500 dps without drones. (Yes, one of the NHs will have to drop the mwd in order to fit gang mod)
So, 4 HAM fitted ships at close range that dishes out 2800 kinetic dps is quite a punch. This kind of damage will drop any ship with logistics support in the tournament!
Add to this setup Rooks (HM setup, 300 dps each), Basilisk, Manticore (450 dps) and some other ships you need to make the shield tanking setup work.
Just my 2 cents 
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Kil2
Club Bear
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Posted - 2009.09.17 07:07:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Kil2 on 17/09/2009 07:07:05
i would like to please be put on the other side of this argument. and also say that it is indeed a bit tired.
also! someone has fielded ham drakes in the tournament but i cant remember who. and i think they won.
drakes are pretty good in this tournament. but most of all, they arent that special one way or another. it will be rare that they are make or break i think so they are getting a bit more attention than deserved!
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