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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
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CCP Zymurgist
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:38:00 -
[1]
Know what is better than a capital ship? How about special modified weapons used to blow up other capital ships? I don't know about you but I am already excited over this idea. Thanks to CCP Abathur we have a new dev blog about some of the changes to capital ships coming in Dominion.
Zymurgist Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
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Doomed Predator
The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:42:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Doomed Predator on 15/09/2009 21:49:35 Keep the dominion dev blogs coming.
The name supercarriers is lame and needs to be changed asap. The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Dave Meltdown
Capital Construction Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:52:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Dave Meltdown on 15/09/2009 21:52:57
/me quotes "porco dio"
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:54:00 -
[4]
/me demands more pic
Awesome.
Originally by: Sandslinger of CA
So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
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keymaker
DEATHFUNK Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.15 21:56:00 -
[5]
good blog :)
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Ex Mudder
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:00:00 -
[6]
So Super Carriers get their very own Torpedo Bomber squadrons? Neat.
Still see nothing to keep them from hugging the POS shield / station, though. Perhaps their torpedo bombers are like drones and you have to be on grid to use them?
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Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:00:00 -
[7]
sounds fun
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Ivanna Nuke
Daralux
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:01:00 -
[8]
First page of something epic
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:03:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 15/09/2009 22:03:52 Time to crosstrain a dreadnought that won't have issues getting lolbumped off its sentries if you haven't already, then, given that sentries are useful while in siege for a much smaller set of circumstances than having the higher damage and better ranged main weapons of the other three races. ----
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Cynthia Ysolde
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:03:00 -
[10]
don't change 'mothership' to 'supercarrier' , that's just stupid and really doesn't make anything clearer.
You're making them have a defined role of their own anyway so why would you change the name to make them seem even more similar.
But seriously supercarrier just sounds dumb
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Crunchip
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:03:00 -
[11]
Sounds good so far
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Alley Novell
That's Not Right
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:04:00 -
[12]
Was Dominion planned to be such a wide range of changes to begin with?
You guys are pumping out major patches like Mac OS X... or quicker! :o
Not that any of that is complaints... ;D - compliments on productivity. =D
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The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:04:00 -
[13]
excellent blog, excellent news. i approve wholeheartedly.
Sins of a Solar Spymaster: my ~fair and balanced~ column TheMittani @ Twitter
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Emeline Cabernet
Amarr The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:06:00 -
[14]
Wow gigantic news!
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Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:07:00 -
[15]
While I approve most of this, how about boosting the other Dreads rather than nerfing the Moros? :( |
Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:08:00 -
[16]
Sweet, and the model makers are getting better and better. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:08:00 -
[17]
/me sets picture of fighter bomber as desktop background. |
Varrakk
Phantom Squad Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:09:00 -
[18]
I had some faint hopes with Seleene looking at the cap overhaul they might actually get something usefull.
Fighter Bombers might sound cool, but the actuall use will be very limited. If their damage will be of any significance, carriers will simply screen the dreads and smartbomb away all their damage.
The "Superlaser" for Titan is very unoriginal (countless threads since the addition of scripts). Unless the Titans gets some insane HP bonuses, you still wont put it infront of a dread fleet.
Titan was always intended to be a deterrent, a weapon of terror. But again, CCP goes off to reinvent the wheel when trying to nerf something. The AOE blast is perfect the way it is, just need to un-nano the Titans. Perhaps even stopping it from working under a Cyno Jammer. |
Sybilla Prior
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:09:00 -
[19]
Won't fighter-bombers make stealth bombers kind of useless? |
Leana Darksith
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:09:00 -
[20]
Sounds f'ing sweet. |
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ElvenLord
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:11:00 -
[21]
Can we get a bit more specific explanation on new DD pls. Does it affect just the target you locked or even ships around it? Will be able to kill a single capital? Whats the rof on it (still 1 per hour)?
Cause tbh, I donĘt think that you can make those bonuses that high to make it worth to warp a 60bil ship into 150 dreads just to kill one, let alone into a support fleet and get tackled in less then 15 sec.
also \o/ for MSs erm supercarriers :D (thou that HP boost better be worth not calling them primary as soon as they appear on the field)
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Succubine
Caldari Succubine Dynasty Technologies
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:12:00 -
[22]
Titans and Moros finally put in their place. Let the glorious whines and tears commence. |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:14:00 -
[23]
I'm glad I'll be seeing less of the 'docking port dreads' as I've encoutered most Moroses in low-sec. |
Fuujin
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:15:00 -
[24]
so...pretty...
Are there going to be any skill requirement changes with capitals? |
The Mittani
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:15:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sybilla Prior Won't fighter-bombers make stealth bombers kind of useless?
no one serious uses stealth bombers against capital ships |
Xennith
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:16:00 -
[26]
im just glad that i havent bought a moros yet. |
Alley Novell
That's Not Right
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:16:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sybilla Prior Won't fighter-bombers make stealth bombers kind of useless?
I believe not. They're described as Capital ship destroyers. Think of them as an XL module, only cooler. :)
If they do eclipse the Stealth Bomber by being able to hit smaller ships, that'll be a shame. :< |
SentryRaven
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:17:00 -
[28]
Looks very promising and interesting. Thanks Abathur!! --------
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wert668
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:17:00 -
[29]
cool
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Sertan Deras
Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:18:00 -
[30]
I read the Moros nerf as "We are just making sure the Revelation is the only turret dread worth flying. It was sort of ambiguous before, but now there is no doubt: Cross train for a Revelation now."
Hey, I already have Amarr Dread 5, so I'm not complaining...but I feel bad for Moros pilots.
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Quesa
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:19:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Quesa on 15/09/2009 22:21:44 I sincerely hope that CCP looks into vastly increasing the Ship Maint bay of Titans and reworks the Clone Vat functionality to allow them to finally be able to be the "Fleet Reinforcement" module that I always thought they were for.
What will the range of these torps for the bombers be?
Are the specialized to the point to where they won't be able to hit BS's and large POS mods effectively?
Will these fighters be stuck with the standard racial damage types?
Will SuperCarriers have modified jump ranges to be able to jump with carrier fleets?
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Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:20:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Cynthia Ysolde Edited by: Cynthia Ysolde on 15/09/2009 22:07:54 Edited by: Cynthia Ysolde on 15/09/2009 22:06:44 don't change 'mothership' to 'supercarrier' , that's just stupid and really doesn't make anything clearer.
You're making them have a defined role of their own anyway so why would you change the name to make them seem even more similar.
But seriously supercarrier just sounds dumb
oh, and now moroses need a boost for being pretty much the worst dread, which is pretty funny.
otherwise, pretty cool stuff.
a mothership is (well should be) a massive ship capable of moving fleets vast distances but currently they are really just big (aka super) carriers. don't really like the loss of the clone vat bay, but not the end of the world.
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Jonathan Mcarthur
Caldari GK inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:22:00 -
[33]
Assualt Carriers is an overall better name for "Super Carrier", it pretty much gives a proper name for it.
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Sertan Deras
Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:24:00 -
[34]
They probably chose super carriers, because that's what the only nation on the planet that has something remotely real life equivalent calls them (aka us, the United States). We have regular carriers, and we have super carriers.
Not saying that makes it any less lame (might make it more lame?) but I think that's the reasoning.
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Zastrow J
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:27:00 -
[35]
I said this at the CSM summit and I'm repeating it here: while I understand the desire to keep a Moros from raping any subcap to get closer than 60km with drones, making it rely on sentries in siege to even come near the dps of the other dreads makes it by far the least desirable dread. Its only saving grace was it's ability to fight off subcaps out of siege but with that gone it's just going to be one more class of ship where Gallente is the worst.
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Sybilla Prior
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:28:00 -
[36]
What they don't seem to be doing is making sub-capital ships more usefull in big fleet-fights. Why is that?
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:28:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 15/09/2009 22:32:57
Originally by: Sertan Deras I read the Moros nerf as "We are just making sure the Revelation is the only turret dread worth flying. It was sort of ambiguous before, but now there is no doubt: Cross train for a Revelation now."
Hey, I already have Amarr Dread 5, so I'm not complaining...but I feel bad for Moros pilots.
What they COULD do is give heavy drones a big enough optimal range bonus (or a scoop bonus) that you don't have to be worried about being knocked off your sentries should you dare deploy them, since you sure as hell aren't going to be carrying much else right now.
Doubt that'd happen though. Ah well, I was going to get Amarr anyways - not that hard to shift things around in EveMon.
Why don't you just strip the drone bonus altogether and bring the Moros' guns on par with the other dreads, if drones are only meant to be used as a siege weapon? You're not gonna be able to do much against support with the siege mode locking restrictions. ----
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Solanio
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:29:00 -
[38]
a) supercarrier is s stupid name, what's next? superdominix? just keep mothership please
b) I am a Moros pilot and I agree with the changes. It never made sense for the drones to get the bonus if not in siege. But please look into changing sentry drones in a way that some bumping does not mean it takes minutes for the Moros to get back his drones. Scoop range bonus or let sentries, if used by a Moros, move at e.g. 50m/s when recalled. |
iP0D
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:29:00 -
[39]
Interesting Titan changes, but no hitpoint change or added heat bonus will change that they are glass cannons in the face of 200 dreadnoughts ... they are going to need more then just this new targeted weapon to really be part of a fleet. Imo it is time to swap out the launcher slots on the ragnarok and leviathan for turrets so they can be somewhat operational in tight spots like the avatar and erebus.
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Corinae
Gallente Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:30:00 -
[40]
ROF of new DDD? i need answer or i can't sleep, thanks, my erebus is crying so hard :(
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Soleil Fournier
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:31:00 -
[41]
Thank you, thank you, thank you for the dev blog on capitals.
However, I do have some important questions. I'm a Nyx pilot. The past year and a half of my Nyx ownership has been me sitting inside the pos shield for 99.9999% of the time. Part of that is lack of a defined role, and the other part, more importantly, was how easy they were to pop. So, the questions:
1) The blog states that supercarriers are getting a hit point increase. I welcome this, but an increase in hit points alone won't do the job. Even with 2 capital armor reppers, Dreadnaughts (and I'm assuming fighter bombers) will tear through supercaps like paper unless we can do sustained repping, which we can't do currently. Any plans for a T2 capital armor repper for supercaps, or additional bonuses to help supercap defenses?
2) As I understand it, the supercarrier's primary role will be anti-capital ship now. I'm loving that, and think it's the perfect role. Since we're losing command modules, clone vat bay, and triage, will there be additional bonuses added to supercarriers to help it in its new role?
3) Projected ECCM is ok but not really "great" for fleet fights. Any plans to beef it up or change it? Is CCP still looking to supercarriers to help fullfil the anti-blob role?
4) I'm still concerned that post patch I'll be spending 95% of my time stuck in a pos since I can't dock. I think that the focus CCP is giving to small ship combat heightens the concern for this. Any plans to allow supercaps to dock?
Thanks!
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HunterHH
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:32:00 -
[42]
.. i think the name strike carrier will fit more then super carrier. or assault carrier.
but i don't like the idea to loose a carrier in 1 shot... for some people they still are expensive stuff - to loose approx 1.5+ with one shot can make people quit imo.
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Sertan Deras
Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:33:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Corinae
ROF of new DDD? i need answer or i can't sleep, thanks, my erebus is crying so hard :(
If it insta-pops capital ships, which is implied, then the ROF is going to be long enough to not completely unbalance a capital fight by bringing in six Titans who just insta-kill the entire enemy fleet.
Or maybe not, I mean, they did think DD's were a good idea in the first place.
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Quesa
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:34:00 -
[44]
Originally by: iP0D Interesting Titan changes, but no hitpoint change or added heat bonus will change that they are glass cannons in the face of 200 dreadnoughts ... they are going to need more then just this new targeted weapon to really be part of a fleet. Imo it is time to swap out the launcher slots on the ragnarok and leviathan for turrets so they can be somewhat operational in tight spots like the avatar and erebus.
to ensure that you don't instantly melt and can survive more than a minute on the modern EVE capital battlefield, we will be giving Titans a respectable hit point increase.
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Hull Blaster
Gallente Missions Mining and Mayhem Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:34:00 -
[45]
Hmm... pretty pi**ed about the bombers only being on moms. I mean really???? How are these supposed to break up dread blobs when they're only going to be used by moms? I mean perhaps make the carrier pilot choose between having fighters or bombers but not both, but to restrict them to only mom pilots just feels like a kick in the teeth. If dreads had a persistent threat of being bombed to bits by bombers it would bring smaller ships back into blobs which could track and kill the bombers. Just like in RL you have say a carrier in the middle being protected by picket ships keeping watch on the outside. Would mean people had to think about ship deployment instead of just dropping 50 dreads and not having to worry about anything. I got really excited when I heard there were new fighter type ships/drones being introduced to the game... but it just sucks now. How many people get to fly a mom ffs
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Zastrow J
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:34:00 -
[46]
supercaps arent intended to be solo pwnboats, but with triage carriers around you can ensure that your supercaps would make an awful primary target
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ElvenLord
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:36:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Zastrow J I said this at the CSM summit and I'm repeating it here: while I understand the desire to keep a Moros from raping any subcap to get closer than 60km with drones, making it rely on sentries in siege to even come near the dps of the other dreads makes it by far the least desirable dread. Its only saving grace was it's ability to fight off subcaps out of siege but with that gone it's just going to be one more class of ship where Gallente is the worst.
I agree 100% with the goon. Removing something that made moros what it was just makes it worthless.
"Of all the dreadnoughts currently in existence, the versatile Moros possesses perhaps the greatest capacity to fend off smaller hostiles by itself while concentrating on its primary capital target. By virtue of its protean array of point defense capabilities - including a drone bay capable of fielding vast amounts of drones to safeguard the behemoth - the Moros is single-handedly capable of turning the tide in a fleet battle." - this is/was the moros description
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Shade Millith
Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:36:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Zastrow J I said this at the CSM summit and I'm repeating it here: while I understand the desire to keep a Moros from raping any subcap to get closer than 60km with drones, making it rely on sentries in siege to even come near the dps of the other dreads makes it by far the least desirable dread. Its only saving grace was it's ability to fight off subcaps out of siege but with that gone it's just going to be one more class of ship where Gallente is the worst.
They haven't changed ANYTHING to do with a moro's while it's in siege.
There was no point in putting a moros on a hostile pos if you didn't siege it. There was no point in putting a moros on hostile caps unless you sieged it.
Now : You have Drone bonus, you drop it on POS, siege it, you get weapon bonus Future : You drop it on POS, siege it, you get weapon and drone bonus
You do the same damage, have the same things happen, in both situations.
Stop acting like they've removed the bonus. --------------------------------------------
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Bow'ma
Infinity Enterprises Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:37:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Bow''ma on 15/09/2009 22:38:36 Just a mather of time before everyone is flying XMOMs maybe? Sure there expensive, but having the capability to kick the hell out of carriers and dreads, the capability to also not get single-shotted by a titan makes them choice #1.
Hmmmm, interesting though.
Edit: Spelling fix.
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Van Krakien
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:38:00 -
[50]
this new titan super weapon is just as bad as the doomsday.....Instead of being able to kill a battleship that cost 100m now you lose your carrier or dreadnaught which will run up a few billion.....good thinking ccp...... --------------------------------------------------
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Gael Itrus
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:38:00 -
[51]
Originally by: HunterHH .. i think the name strike carrier will fit more then super carrier. or assault carrier.
strike carrier is a much better name
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Tigerclaw Bunny
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:41:00 -
[52]
mhh titans get nerved... so thats why ex-Kenzoku is selling there titans since 2-3 weeks before the first dev blog?....
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Quesa
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:42:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Quesa on 15/09/2009 22:42:31
Originally by: Van Krakien this new titan super weapon is just as bad as the doomsday.....Instead of being able to kill a battleship that cost 100m now you lose your carrier or dreadnaught which will run up a few billion.....good thinking ccp......
The way it looks, you won't be seeing Titans on the field when Dreads are there, sure the Titan will nuke a single capitol but I can't seem them giving it a ROF to nuke an entire cap fleet before it's downed.
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Fuujin
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:42:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Fuujin on 15/09/2009 22:43:20 Edited by: Fuujin on 15/09/2009 22:42:34
Originally by: Van Krakien this new titan super weapon is just as bad as the doomsday.....Instead of being able to kill a battleship that cost 100m now you lose your carrier or dreadnaught which will run up a few billion.....good thinking ccp......
A single carrier/mom/battleship, not potentially every ship within 250KM of your own. BIG difference.
40 battleship fleet=well over 4 billion isk. 1 dread=2 billion, unless you're doing some silly deadspace fitting.
Edit: Beaten....
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Emeline Cabernet
Amarr The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:42:00 -
[55]
Can you assign fighter bombers to other ships like regular fighters?
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Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:43:00 -
[56]
I would like further explanation on why the capital clone bays are being removed from the build cost? While I can understand and agree with wanting to reduce the build cost, doing so by making a blueprint that producers have spent a lot of money acquiring is bad gameplay. A better solution would be to reduce component usage across the board by 10%.
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Alley Novell
That's Not Right
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:43:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Alley Novell on 15/09/2009 22:45:11
Originally by: Sertan Deras
Originally by: Corinae
ROF of new DDD? i need answer or i can't sleep, thanks, my erebus is crying so hard :(
If it insta-pops capital ships, which is implied, then the ROF is going to be long enough to not completely unbalance a capital fight by bringing in six Titans who just insta-kill the entire enemy fleet.
Or maybe not, I mean, they did think DD's were a good idea in the first place.
Well, originally, I believe Titans were to be the OMG ship. Incredibly hard to build, shows up, ruins the battlefield.
As more and more other Capitals are/were produced, Supercapitals became devalued (on the battlefield) due to their usage against heavy numbers of Capitals; i.e. the production of Capitals is easier (loose term) and therefore Supercapitals don't get much daylight.
As mentioned in the blog, Capital warfare has become 'common' enough to the point the specific roles cannot be fulfilled due to production of the bigger ships being so hard. I see this as they had two choices - Make Titans easier to produce, and more common in Capital warfare; alternatively, make Supercapitals hardier as so they aren't hopelessly outnumbered by easier to produce Capitals.
They're making a change to start this 'balancing' process... as it seems.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:45:00 -
[58]
The most useful change that supercaps could see is an increase in their jump range so you're more able to move them around with the carriers and dreads rather than needing a seperate dedicated cyno chain for the route.
Any chance of this?
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Zastrow J
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:45:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Shade Millith
Originally by: Zastrow J I said this at the CSM summit and I'm repeating it here: while I understand the desire to keep a Moros from raping any subcap to get closer than 60km with drones, making it rely on sentries in siege to even come near the dps of the other dreads makes it by far the least desirable dread. Its only saving grace was it's ability to fight off subcaps out of siege but with that gone it's just going to be one more class of ship where Gallente is the worst.
They haven't changed ANYTHING to do with a moro's while it's in siege.
There was no point in putting a moros on a hostile pos if you didn't siege it. There was no point in putting a moros on hostile caps unless you sieged it.
Now : You have Drone bonus, you drop it on POS, siege it, you get weapon bonus Future : You drop it on POS, siege it, you get weapon and drone bonus
You do the same damage, have the same things happen, in both situations.
Stop acting like they've removed the bonus.
here's why the Moros sucks: the 1000mm railguns do less damage than other dread turrets. This lower dps is supposed to be offset by the drone damage bonus, but drones can be popped and have short range. HOWEVER, the drone damage bonus was pretty cool out of siege because you could own dictors or any subcap with drones. Without the option to bone subcaps out of siege the moros loses its versatility and becomes functionally the same as the other dreads except doing less dps and being handicapped by drones
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Sertan Deras
Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:45:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Quesa Edited by: Quesa on 15/09/2009 22:42:31
Originally by: Van Krakien this new titan super weapon is just as bad as the doomsday.....Instead of being able to kill a battleship that cost 100m now you lose your carrier or dreadnaught which will run up a few billion.....good thinking ccp......
The way it looks, you won't be seeing Titans on the field when Dreads are there, sure the Titan will nuke a single capitol but I can't seem them giving it a ROF to nuke an entire cap fleet before it's downed.
You're talking about CCP, you thought remote DD's were a good idea at one time, or for that matter, though the DD was ever a good idea remote or otherwise. It wouldn't shock me at all if it had a fast enough ROF to wipe out 10's of billions of ISK in caps before it went down.
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Kazaux Aux
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:45:00 -
[61]
Why not just make the moros' drone bonus 25% out of siege and 50% in siege? makes sense to me tbh
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Soleil Fournier
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:45:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 15/09/2009 22:48:19
Originally by: Zastrow J supercaps arent intended to be solo pwnboats, but with triage carriers around you can ensure that your supercaps would make an awful primary target
Carriers never enter seige in fleet fights. Makes it to where they can't spider tank, and puts an instant primary "sitting duck" target on them. Why would they suddenly start using triage post patch? We definatley need more self repping ability to stand up on our own in fleets, but without being invincible. I think there's a balance that can be obtained.
You are right. Supercaps shouldn't be solopwnmobiles. I'd love it if I just had fighters and fighter bombers. Get rid of our ability to carry normal drones altogether. That should take care of some of the balance issues vs small ships right there and force us to be deployed with a subcap fleet.
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iP0D
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:46:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Tigerclaw Bunny mhh titans get nerved... so thats why ex-Kenzoku is selling there titans since 2-3 weeks before the first dev blog?....
Kenny is broke, pilots are throwing in the towel, that's the reason :P Check on who is buying, and building, even with a weapon type change the hitpoint changes are not enough to stop them from being glass cannons, hence why people are investing in more Titans. Even now already. Nuts.
Btw, Titan nerf was known for some weeks now, also you would have to be really blind, deaf and dumb to not see hard changes coming for a year now :P
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Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:49:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Doomed Predator The name supercarriers is lame and needs to be changed asap.
Agree. I bought a Mothership to fly a Mothership, not a bloody Supercarrier.
Removing the Clone Vat, Triage and extra Warfare is fine, noone really fits the first two and the third is situational. A slight bit of HP needs to be alot more of hp tbfh (same with Titan). After all these ships cost a crapload, and with the changes CCP introduce they want us to frontline field them (no reason else for Fighterbombers). Considering how fast the supercaps die today to sub-cap fleets even, I'd say a reasonable hp boost would lie around ten times the base HP we have today, for Moms and Titans alike.
My Aeon might be the ugliest ship in the game, and I like that CCP is trying to adapt these ship classes to the future (with all caps around). But current Fighters are good, I don't want to give up survivability for some crappy cap killing Fighters 2.0. Screw that ****, give me hp. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:50:00 -
[65]
Intelligence suggests that a team of Dust marines will be able to sabotage Titan shield generators located on the moon they were built at in order to drop their shields and allow a conventional fleet to assault them. We are told that the primary weapon system is not yet online.
Many Bothan spies died to bring us this information. --
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donęt forget the reach-around.
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Bobby Atlas
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:51:00 -
[66]
Titans have just become the new mom and will sit in pos's for the next year or two till CCP realizes there not being used, at all, then changes things, again. A sad state of the game yet again that we find ourselves in, poorly conceived changes with poor understanding of actual problems with titans (not the dd but the lack of drawbacks and ability to warp out faster than a BS).
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Zastrow J
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:51:00 -
[67]
Furthermore, yes I used to fly a moros before I put that pilot in an erebus and yes I remember pos gunners popping my t2 sentries, which not only cost me bux with every siege, but also handicapped my dps. I also rememeber capital fights at about 70km range where my drones couldn't do anything. I remember drones bumping caps around when they were deployed, I remember my sentries appearing so far away I had to abandon them because it would take 10 minutes to scoop. But I also remember killing a t3 cruiser with ogre II's (that was pretty sweet), and dictors with flights of small drones
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:51:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Shade Millith Now : You have Drone bonus, you drop it on POS, siege it, you get weapon bonus Future : You drop it on POS, siege it, you get weapon and drone bonus
Now: You can shoot subcaps/pos mods while not yet in siege. In many fights you're outside of range to use drones. Often the drones are lost because you've been bumped too far to retrieve them. You put up with potentially losing a fair chunk of dps because of that subcap niche.
Future: You cross train for a Revelations because there isn't much point in flying anything else.
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BlackHorizon
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:51:00 -
[69]
Edited by: BlackHorizon on 15/09/2009 22:53:25 Excellent changes and exposition for the most part.
However, I was left slightly disappointed by the assertion that dreadnoughts (mispelled in the blog, BTW) will remain unchanged. If anything, the boring "seige green", lock and shoot dreadnought mentality needs to go to something a little more... skillful. When you can easily triple or quad box dreads, something needs to change.
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Fuujin
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:52:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Bobby Atlas Titans have just become the new mom and will sit in pos's for the next year or two till CCP realizes there not being used, at all, then changes things, again. A sad state of the game yet again that we find ourselves in, poorly conceived changes with poor understanding of actual problems with titans (not the dd but the lack of drawbacks and ability to warp out faster than a BS).
So sorry you didn't get to enjoy your new toy. Tissue?
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Aylara
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:53:00 -
[71]
Is the Moros going to receive a drone control range boost while in sige? Since we cannot camp stations anymore and never going to see a blaster Moros on Tranquility, we need something to keep our beloved ships in line with other dreads. 10x!
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twobit jenkins
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:53:00 -
[72]
Quote: Gone will be:
+ The ability for Supercarriers to fit Triage modules.
This is the stupidest idea for a "supercarrier". Can't regular carriers fit triage modules? It stands to reason anything named "supercarrier" could do the same things as a regular carrier, but more (or the same things better). Seriously, now motherships will be the only ship in game that is only useful for PvP. Titans at least get jump portals for logistics work.
Bad move CCP. Please refund all mothership pilots the month spent training for triage or leave triage capability on motherships.
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Tarnia Xavian
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:54:00 -
[73]
You don't need new weapons to sell more motherships. Let them dock and I'll buy one tomorrow.
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Prof Fail
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:56:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Prof Fail on 15/09/2009 23:00:08 Edited by: Prof Fail on 15/09/2009 22:57:51 Edited by: Prof Fail on 15/09/2009 22:56:59
Quote: Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode.
This nerf I dont understand. DPS-wise the Moros is the worst turret dread. As a tradeoff the Moros was able to hit support-ships. It makes no sense to nerf this ability. All whats left then is a Dread with bad turred damage, which has to rely on drones to come close to other Dread's dps. Drones only can act in pathetic 60km range and are heavily vulnerable to posguns. Also you have to use sentries to to DMG, since heavy drones are to slow and cant hit POS'. Its also common a Dread is bumped away from sentries.....
Dont nerf the Moros...it was in line with the other turret Dreads. If you insist to deny Dreads to harm support ships, just remove the Moros' drone bonus and swap it for a Hybrid-weapon bonus to enhance Moros' turret dps.
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Henri LeChasseur
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:56:00 -
[75]
SQUEEEEEEEEEEEE
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:57:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 15/09/2009 22:58:06 Any new subcapital vs capital blob counters? Or still "bring as many BS and ECM as you can possibly fit on grid"? (actually improved now, no DD to fear)
Any changes in "who brings more dreads to the fight (carriers count as 1/2 dread) wins"?
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De Guantanamo
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:58:00 -
[77]
This dev blog failed to deliver proper foreplay as is prescribed for all good dev blogs.
What a dumb read.
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.09.15 22:59:00 -
[78]
Wow am I ever seeing capital nerf with a capital N.
Quote: The first Motherships were near-mythical beasts, used by ruthless pirate corporations and powerful PvP alliances, able to stand against and destroy entire fleets nearly single handedly.
Hey we can all go watch loxyrider do this. Except those 4 motherships taking on about 50bs. Actually lost TONS of fighters in doing that. The moms eventually needing their fleet to protect them. Also... epic epic fighter nerf remember. So we cant exactly be elite anymore. NErfed to where we lose all our fighters before we kill anything. Unless there's 50 other carriers there also.
Quote: There is nothing fancy about this. You will have to warp your titan on grid and actually target an enemy ship to ruin his day. You won't be killing other supercapitals in one shot, but very little else is going to survive.
Ok yes. Titans need a nerf. But you just say... you wont kill other supercaps in one shot. Oh right. We already have Double and triple doomsdaying. So 3 titans drop on the field to blast ur titan. While 3 others come to blast your 3.
Oh right. Nobody in their right mind will put their ships on the field...
And what? Titans are the new anti-station camping? I'm camping in my thanny on station. I better dock or im losing my ship.
Is this new deathray allowed in low sec? Dont undock your caps anymore because the titan is about to bbq u and you cant do much about it apparently.
Titans lock carriers in like 10 seconds. Carriers align in like 30 seconds.
Quote: Motherships are being reclassified as Supercarriers. The name of ęMothership' has long caused confusion as to what the intended role
So they can now dock? They can be built in stations? They arent going to be these giant targets sitting at pos waiting to be destroyed? Is motherships the new capitals that sort of can protect themselves from titans?
How about pos? Can titans blow them away? If a titan can blast a carrier. That's AT LEAST 2.5mil dmg. Typical large pos isnt that much more. So bring 10 titans and you can RF towers in all the time it takes to get a lock?
Quote: + The ability for Supercarriers to fit Triage modules. + The ability for Supercarriers to fit Clone Vat Bays. + The ability for Supercarriers to fit one additional Warfare Link per level.
Ok they didnt exactly use these... but it's still a nerf of options.
Quote: Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode.
Yaaay moros nerf. Oh wait... it wasnt even the best dread... and that's not even taking nagl or pheonix into account. I know they got buffed. Never checked how much. So what? Moros pretty much got massively shafted here.
Moros wasnt even op. The very limited use of station camping has led to a number of moros deaths. I dont see why this happened. Is the moros guns getting epically buffed now to make up for the nerf?
I was 2 days away from training capital hybrids for moros. I can fly moros, I can siege moros, but i didnt have capital hybrids. Now I wont even bother.
Moros insurance value is 1.1bil by the way. I'll try to buy myself a moros at 1bil when they are selling like hotcakes. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Sertan Deras
Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:01:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 15/09/2009 22:58:06 Any new subcapital vs capital blob counters? Or still "bring as many BS and ECM as you can possibly fit on grid"? (actually improved now, no DD to fear)
Any changes in "who brings more dreads to the fight (carriers count as 1/2 dread) wins"?
This will never, ever change. Get used to it. He who brings the most people, in properly fit ships, that can all listen to directions, is going to win a huge percentage of the time. To even attempt to "fix" this with game mechanics would fail terribly and make the game far worse than it is now.
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Altair Mogwa
Amok.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:03:00 -
[80]
"supercarriers' should be able to field different sized fighters that are faster and hit smaller targets better as you step down their size (less dmg ofc) , or at least extend control range on drones.
I really hope there are some other changes. I can't foresee the addition of fighter bombers and a small HP buff offsetting the drawback of their cost, inability to dock, and now lack of triage ability. ship bay / corp hangers are on low utlity list, so that leaves you only with RR and fightbombers. Why risk a supercarrier for the RR? Leaves you with the fighter bombers, buy 5 dreads with the same isk...
The 'other ideas' you speak of i hope really come through. Maybe improve on the ecm functions as well.
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CCP Abathur
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:03:00 -
[81]
Originally by: ElvenLord Can we get a bit more specific explanation on new DD pls. Does it affect just the target you locked or even ships around it?
The Dominion super weapons will only affect the ship they target. Subsequent iterations on the super weapon concept may involve multiple targets and different effects as well.
Originally by: ElvenLord Will be able to kill a single capital?
Yes.
Quote: Whats the rof on it (still 1 per hour)?
The current RoF on the super weapons is five minutes. This is because we plan to let everyone do a lot of testing on SiSi over the next several weeks. We will continue to balance based upon the results of public testing and feedback. Firing the weapon has the current effects:
- Immobility for 30 seconds.
- Jump drive non-operational for five minutes.
Originally by: ElvenLord Cause tbh, I donĘt think that you can make those bonuses that high to make it worth to warp a 60bil ship into 150 dreads just to kill one, let alone into a support fleet and get tackled in less then 15 sec.
Anyone that cowboys a titan into 150 dreads probably shouldn't be in a Titan anyway. These ships, along with the Supercarriers, are not intended to be solo pwnmobiles. With proper support, however, they will force your opponents to make some hard choices about who or what they are calling primary.
Originally by: Many People My poor Moros!!
Yeah... well... *nerf bat*
That being said, I'll take another look at their comparative damage output in the next few weeks.
Originally by: Sybilla Prior What they don't seem to be doing is making sub-capital ships more usefull in big fleet-fights. Why is that?
I would think removing the big button on Titans that makes sub-capitals go boom might help here.
Originally by: Van Krakien this new titan super weapon is just as bad as the doomsday.....Instead of being able to kill a battleship that cost 100m now you lose your carrier or dreadnaught which will run up a few billion.....good thinking ccp......
The difference is that instead of ruining the day of a couple hundred people (potentially worth X billions of Battleships and HACs) with the push of a single button, you are ruining the day of one person.
Originally by: Emeline Cabernet Can you assign fighter bombers to other ships like regular fighters?
Good question! No.
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:05:00 -
[82]
Supercarriers sounds kinda lame.
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Verys
Burning Technologies Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:06:00 -
[83]
A quite detailing blog at last and one I was looking forward to.
The renaming of motherships to supercarriers is just wrong it sounds like something a 9 year old would say there are lots of alternatives out there and I have seen a few nice ones in this thread already.
The titan and the mothership now really closely border each other being both an anti-capital role I hope in practice they won't share too much similarity making the motership once again useless unless you don't have the money to buy a titan.
Motherships should become dockable especially with the current role changes even if they become super capital fleet killers the trouble of having an alt or a pos setup just to get those things safe is not worth the trouble right now and wont be worth it after the patch. This especially if you have a titan who can almost one-shot any capital in the field and will be much more useful because it's weapon can't be destroyed.
It's too bad carriers will remain unchanged and I would like to see a small boost to carriers, make their drones repair themselves within their bays. It's odd that a massive ship with launching bays doesn't have a repair bay for the ships they are carrying unless they go outside. -------------------- Need a signature or graphic for EVE? Go to EVE-GFX -------------------- |
Fitz VonHeise
Eye Bee Em
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:08:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Misanth Removing the Clone Vat, ...
MS's would have been far more usefull if CCP had made the clone vat bays act like a station clone bay. In which people could put a clone in it and after the MS jumps to the battlefield area the guys who are back at Home HQ area could jump to it and get their ships out... when op is over would put ship back in MS and clone jump back to the Home system.
This would require a large ship hanger (3-4x) as well as allowing multiple clone jumps rather the the one off ones now.
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Ulair Memmet
ORIGIN SYSTEMS Shadows of Light
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:11:00 -
[85]
Quote: We are also working hard to bring the next iteration of our ębay' concept into Dominion in the form of Fighter / Fighter Bomber bays for Carriers and Supercarriers. This will allow you to better organize and separate your primary strike craft from your regular drones
So how big will the drone bay be for Carriers? Will we still be able to have all kinds of drones (ECM/Neut/Web-yeah i know...-/Repair/Sentries/...) with us? I always liked to have drones for all occasions.
I never used Ctrl + Q and im PROUD OF IT |
Dolgu
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:11:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Dolgu on 15/09/2009 23:14:30 Will Motherships grow a bit, so they are bigger than normal dreads?
No Supercarriers
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Sertan Deras
Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:13:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Ulair Memmet
Quote: We are also working hard to bring the next iteration of our ębay' concept into Dominion in the form of Fighter / Fighter Bomber bays for Carriers and Supercarriers. This will allow you to better organize and separate your primary strike craft from your regular drones
So how big will the drone bay be for Carriers? Will we still be able to have all kinds of drones (ECM/Neut/Web-yeah i know...-/Repair/Sentries/...) with us? I always liked to have drones for all occasions.
That was supposed to be the point of a carrier, versatile capital support. If they nerf the drone bay so much we can't do this, it's just another short sighed, not well thought out change by CCP.
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Van Krakien
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:14:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Fuujin Edited by: Fuujin on 15/09/2009 22:43:20 Edited by: Fuujin on 15/09/2009 22:42:34
Originally by: Van Krakien this new titan super weapon is just as bad as the doomsday.....Instead of being able to kill a battleship that cost 100m now you lose your carrier or dreadnaught which will run up a few billion.....good thinking ccp......
A single carrier/mom/battleship, not potentially every ship within 250KM of your own. BIG difference.
40 battleship fleet=well over 4 billion isk. 1 dread=2 billion, unless you're doing some silly deadspace fitting.
Edit: Beaten....
yeah but i am talking on an individual basis. Single people can replace 100m not everyone can replace a carrier or dreadnaught so easily.
beaten...... --------------------------------------------------
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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr Smegnet Incorporated Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:14:00 -
[89]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: ElvenLord Can we get a bit more specific explanation on new DD pls. Does it affect just the target you locked or even ships around it?
The Dominion super weapons will only affect the ship they target. Subsequent iterations on the super weapon concept may involve multiple targets and different effects as well.
Originally by: ElvenLord Will be able to kill a single capital?
Yes.
Quote: Whats the rof on it (still 1 per hour)?
The current RoF on the super weapons is five minutes. This is because we plan to let everyone do a lot of testing on SiSi over the next several weeks. We will continue to balance based upon the results of public testing and feedback. Firing the weapon has the current effects:
- Immobility for 30 seconds.
- Jump drive non-operational for five minutes.
Originally by: ElvenLord Cause tbh, I donĘt think that you can make those bonuses that high to make it worth to warp a 60bil ship into 150 dreads just to kill one, let alone into a support fleet and get tackled in less then 15 sec.
Anyone that cowboys a titan into 150 dreads probably shouldn't be in a Titan anyway. These ships, along with the Supercarriers, are not intended to be solo pwnmobiles. With proper support, however, they will force your opponents to make some hard choices about who or what they are calling primary.
Originally by: Many People My poor Moros!!
Yeah... well... *nerf bat*
That being said, I'll take another look at their comparative damage output in the next few weeks.
Originally by: Sybilla Prior What they don't seem to be doing is making sub-capital ships more usefull in big fleet-fights. Why is that?
I would think removing the big button on Titans that makes sub-capitals go boom might help here.
Originally by: Van Krakien this new titan super weapon is just as bad as the doomsday.....Instead of being able to kill a battleship that cost 100m now you lose your carrier or dreadnaught which will run up a few billion.....good thinking ccp......
The difference is that instead of ruining the day of a couple hundred people (potentially worth X billions of Battleships and HACs) with the push of a single button, you are ruining the day of one person.
Originally by: Emeline Cabernet Can you assign fighter bombers to other ships like regular fighters?
Good question! No.
Thanks!!!! You are quickly becoming my favorite Dev! You have allievated all my fears about this change.
@All Whiners: LEARN, ADAPT OR DIE!!!!
MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
--Isaac
P.S. Yeah, I'm an evil bastard. Isaac's Haul*Mart - Closed
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Hull Blaster
Gallente Missions Mining and Mayhem Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:14:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Verys It's too bad carriers will remain unchanged and I would like to see a small boost to carriers, make their drones repair themselves within their bays. It's odd that a massive ship with launching bays doesn't have a repair bay for the ships they are carrying unless they go outside.
+1 for that. As its a carrier, will have a flight deck with crew. Makes sense for fighters and other ships in the carrier's bays to repair at a certain hp rate per second/minute etc.
Would be nice for the Supercarriers to be able to dock... but they're so effin' big how would they fit in the station environment???
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Fuujin
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:16:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Van Krakien
yeah but i am talking on an individual basis. Single people can replace 100m not everyone can replace a carrier or dreadnaught so easily.
Insure, and you can. Or have your corp/alliance reimburse you. Or, don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Basic rules of eve here.
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LiMu Bai
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:17:00 -
[92]
Originally by: CCP Abathur [ Originally by: Many People My poor Moros!!
Yeah... well... *nerf bat*
That being said, I'll take another look at their comparative damage output in the next few weeks.
Can you plz explain why youre are doing this to a already weak dread? Other Dreads than Moros do more DMG and can tank more dps. The Moros already was inferior. Why this nerf? I just dont get it. Was there ever a complaint about the evil Moros Powerhouse? Poor Gallente, another nerf :(
/me trains Revelation now
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Sertan Deras
Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:19:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Van Krakien
Originally by: Fuujin Edited by: Fuujin on 15/09/2009 22:43:20 Edited by: Fuujin on 15/09/2009 22:42:34
Originally by: Van Krakien this new titan super weapon is just as bad as the doomsday.....Instead of being able to kill a battleship that cost 100m now you lose your carrier or dreadnaught which will run up a few billion.....good thinking ccp......
A single carrier/mom/battleship, not potentially every ship within 250KM of your own. BIG difference.
40 battleship fleet=well over 4 billion isk. 1 dread=2 billion, unless you're doing some silly deadspace fitting.
Edit: Beaten....
yeah but i am talking on an individual basis. Single people can replace 100m not everyone can replace a carrier or dreadnaught so easily.
beaten......
Uhh, this is pretty simple: Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. This has been a cardinal rule of EVE FOREVER, and if you don't live by it, that's your fault.
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Lucas Tigh
United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:19:00 -
[94]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: Many People My poor Moros!!
Yeah... well... *nerf bat*
That being said, I'll take another look at their comparative damage output in the next few weeks.
See above about the Moros being balanced and in line with all the other dreads, with the possible exception of the Phoenix. I'm not going to go on about this as others already have.
But really. Isn't it about time that you instead looked at nerfing Amarr? There's a reason that they are the preference, if not standard, of large fleet fights. All the "Oh well, time to train for a Revelation now" comments in this thread should be a wakeup call. When a player doesn't need to make any sort of analysis about what ship would be best suited for their needs (ie, "just fly Amarr"), there's a balance problem. We poor, downtrodden (:P) Gallente pilots were hoping that one of the key selling points of this patch would be CPP not swinging the nerf bat in our direction. So much for that.
Amarr have been FotM FotY FotLFP (flavor of the last four patches). Maybe it's time to bring the balance back to an actual state of balance, like, oh, I don't know, how things are on TQ right now (save a possible buff to the Phoenix).
As was said above: great, another ship class that Gallente are the indisputable worst in. -------------------------------------
CCP, make me a winner.
I win. |
Viper ShizzIe
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:20:00 -
[95]
How massive will the HP boost be for titans?
Is there anything else being added to make "supercarriers" more attractive? Jump range could really be looked at, will they retain the ECM burst module? Will fighter bombers be for MS only? Will they receive the same HP boost as titans? Will they get any added supercarrier only modules? Capital warp disruptors that work the same as a HIC focused point would be a great addition. Will they be worthwhile to trap an alt/main in now?
Do you think people will use titans in combat moreso now that they're able to only destroy one ship every five minutes, and in doing so be vulnerable for long enough that just about any competent (and even some that blatantly aren't) HIC/DIC pilot can get ontop of them without the titans having a way to defend themselves against smaller ships? Saying "bring a bigger fleet" really isn't an answer to this. Titans should have support, but I really don't expect many people to use them unless the ROF is substantially increased or you can fit multiple DD modules. The reward for the risk isn't there, especially with the immobility for 30 seconds being a death sentence.
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Kalissa
Amok. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:22:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Kalissa on 15/09/2009 23:22:44 Generally a good blog there a couple of questions though.
I would say the hit point increase which CCP is saying is "respectable" needs to be more like "generous", CCP should really be working along the line of making a Titan be able to tank lets say 40 dreads in siege for quite some time, as with the proliferation of Dreads in the game now being hotdropped by that kinda force coming down on it is quite feasible. Maybe add some kinda repair bonus for the titan? Or a resistance to capital sized weapons? As I said if you're not gonna do that then make the HP to be along the lines of a large pos cos anything less and you're gonna increase the titans survival time by minutes not the kinda time necessary for help to get to it.
I would also give a repair bonus to Motherships too along with their hitpoint increase, they need something extra on the defence front for certain.
Good move on the Moros, leaving Dreads and Carriers as they are is a good move too
But I gotta say CCP you guys are gonna ruin your reputation if you carry on like this, you actually do generally seem to see the problem as the majority of us see it this time!
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ElvenLord
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:23:00 -
[97]
Well it would be nice and interesting to maybe add a bit of a splash damage (15-25 km radius) to the new DD.
Originally by: CCP Abathur Anyone that cowboys a titan into 150 dreads probably shouldn't be in a Titan anyway. These ships, along with the Supercarriers, are not intended to be solo pwnmobiles. With proper support, however, they will force your opponents to make some hard choices about who or what they are calling primary.
I do remember a certain someone cowboy a supercap more them few times (h-w for example), but I guess ppl change over time :P
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Soleil Fournier
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:25:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 15/09/2009 23:31:17
I agree with a previous poster:
Putting 2+ titans in a system will be a big problem with this design. Your 1 titan won't be able to DD a supercap to death, but that titan buddy right behind him lands the finishing blow 2.45 seconds later. People won't be willing to risk putting their super caps on the field with that type of scenerio.
It just gets worse when there's 4,5,6 titans in the same system, but this design would encourage that type of titan blobbing. It's like Neuclear weapons....mutually assured destruction keeps fighting from happening...but we want to encourage fighting, not have a cold war situation, right?
There needs to be some type of limiter on super cap blobbing.
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LiMu Bai
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:27:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Kalissa
CCP should really be working along the line of making a Titan be able to tank lets say 40 dreads in siege for quite some time,
[/quote
Well, i think If titans are that hard to take out, a /logoffski might save them in all random cases, since you wont be able to kill a tackled titan within 15 mins.
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Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:27:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Fitz VonHeise
Originally by: Misanth Removing the Clone Vat, ...
MS's would have been far more usefull if CCP had made the clone vat bays act like a station clone bay. In which people could put a clone in it and after the MS jumps to the battlefield area the guys who are back at Home HQ area could jump to it and get their ships out... when op is over would put ship back in MS and clone jump back to the Home system.
This would require a large ship hanger (3-4x) as well as allowing multiple clone jumps rather the the one off ones now.
I'm guessing that's the future plan for the "new" mothership that CCP wants to introduce some day. That's why they stole the name from the ship today and introduce the "superlame" (that might've been funny if it wasn't so damn gay) "supercarrier".
"Oh hi honey, I'm gonna go to the store and buy the super ultra washing powder, because it's super ultra good!" "Super" is one of those superlatives that is added just to make things sound super good, when in fact it's just the same **** with a lame label. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
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Vile rat
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:29:00 -
[101]
Quote: Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode.
I can say with confidence nobody on your balancing team flies Gallente dreads. Hell you can't even scoop your drones still even though you extended the range modestly. I think the image in your head of what Moroses can do don't quite match reality just FYI.
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Zastrow J
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:30:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Kalissa Edited by: Kalissa on 15/09/2009 23:22:44 Generally a good blog there a couple of questions though.
I would say the hit point increase which CCP is saying is "respectable" needs to be more like "generous", CCP should really be working along the line of making a Titan be able to tank lets say 40 dreads in siege for quite some time, as with the proliferation of Dreads in the game now being hotdropped by that kinda force coming down on it is quite feasible. Maybe add some kinda repair bonus for the titan? Or a resistance to capital sized weapons? As I said if you're not gonna do that then make the HP to be along the lines of a large pos cos anything less and you're gonna increase the titans survival time by minutes not the kinda time necessary for help to get to it.
I would also give a repair bonus to Motherships too along with their hitpoint increase, they need something extra on the defence front for certain.
Good move on the Moros, leaving Dreads and Carriers as they are is a good move too
But I gotta say CCP you guys are gonna ruin your reputation if you carry on like this, you actually do generally seem to see the problem as the majority of us see it this time!
a titan, by itself, against 40 dreads? yea there's no situation where that titan shouldn't be completely boned. A titan tanking 40 dreads but with a half-dozen triage carriers repping? That's more reasonable.
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Pnuka
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:30:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Soleil Fournier Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 15/09/2009 23:26:19 I agree with a previous poster:
Putting 2+ titans in a system will be a big problem with this design. Your 1 titan won't be able to DD a supercap to death, but that titan buddy right behind him lands the finishing blow 2.45 seconds later. People won't be willing to risk putting their super caps on the field with that type of scenerio.
It just gets worse when there's 4,5,6 titans in the same system. There needs to be some type of limiter. The diminishing return setup where 4 titans shooting at 1 target....but really only the 1st DD counts that CCP has talked about before, or some other type of limiter should be implemented to combat this.
Wondering this as well, if a super cap can only withstand 2-3 shots, they won't be fielded.
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Jen Khai
Black Hawk Down Syndrome
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:35:00 -
[104]
Instapopping cap ships is really a bad idea. How is that fun for anyone? Why doesnt ccp understand that instapopping things without any defense is just a horrible unfun design decission. 3 titans jump in and instapop your mothership. yey, you didnt even have a chance to do anything. 30bil down the drain.
Also did you think about the scaling of this? If supercaps will continue to be build at this rate you will get a single alliance drop 10 titans into a dreadfleet fight, killing 10 caps every 5-10 mins. Nice
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ElvenLord
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:37:00 -
[105]
ah few more questions That HP boost, can we get it in numbers (would like do do some math)?
Also there is now a greater risk in producing supercaps, aka in titan case 50bil of assets locked and vulnerable for 45 days, or in "supercarrier" case 13-15bil for 21 days. Is there any plans on reducing building time on those (trough upgrades or just as such) or ways of at least partially securing their production (station building)?
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Sybilla Prior
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:40:00 -
[106]
About the Titan's single-target DD... The effect is basically the same as a blob assigning a primary target: loads of damage onto a single target. But then, losing a couple of ships in your blob isn't going to decrease it's damage output by a huge amount, yet killing the titan will decrease the damage output to zero. So why should a fleet choose a titan over a conventional blob when both do the same thing but a blob is more resiliant?
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Pilk
Blade.
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:43:00 -
[107]
Will the Doomsday Operation skill be transformed into a skill affecting the new targeted weapon, or at least something useful? As someone with DDO V, this is quite important to me.
Carriers, and motherships even more so (thanks to their EW immunity), excel at asymmetric warfare. That was what always made me want to undock/warp in my carrier--I could legitimately fight off two dozen enemies with a single ship. Of course, risk/reward came into it still; I couldn't realistically loot any wrecks I managed to generate, and if someone did manage to get a good bump on me or a proper tackle and a backup gang, I was toast in a ship worth more than most roaming fleets (and I'd drop excellent loot, too!).
What I don't see here is anything to enhance that role; instead, motherships become kinda like dreadnoughts only not nearly as good. Motherships are now not all that great, anyway, since you'd be better off with a single Titan omgwtfpwning an enemy cap every five/(X) minutes than three or four motherships whose damage can be countered by spidertanks. There seems little point in removing the gang link bonuses other than spite; you yourself said the ship was rarely used and underpowered, and now you've eliminated both one of the few reasons to field a mothership, and one of the few training paths open to those who've maxed their mothership-flying skills.
Why not flesh out the clone vat bay idea? Make a mothership a true fleet-spawning powerhouse: all of a sudden, a cyno opens, two motherships appear, and ten battleships, ten HACs, two HICs, and four carriers'-worth of fighters are in your system. It's like a hotdrop, but all of a sudden subcap pilots can come play, which means that instead of two people having fun, it's more like two dozen. I very much doubt this is the best implementation of the mothership concept you can come up with, but surely there's more opportunity of "emergence" coming out of giving players choices than comes out of removing those choices.
--P
Kosh: The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. Tyrrax's bet status: PAID! |
CONVlCTED
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:49:00 -
[108]
indeed, what exactly is the point of having supacarriers be basically a dreadnaught but worse and more expensive? It's like you gave all cap ships (except the un-super carrier) the same role now. They are all supposed to kill cap ships. Wouldn't diversifying their use make more sense?
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Audrea
FinFleet
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:51:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Audrea on 15/09/2009 23:54:46 Sad news about the Moros nerf, but the rest - About DAMN TIME!!!
I would like to propose a new type of drone - just the general idea, up to you (if you like the idea), to decide which ships can use them: Basically, a new kind of drone, something like the ones Atlantis had in the Stargate tv series - you launch them at a specific target, and it cannot escape them, unless going into warp.
However, these would be ONE time use - once they impact the intended ship - they explode, doing massive damage to the enemy ship.
Perhaps even have 2 variants: Gallente one would be shield piercing technology; which bypasses shields and strikes armor/hull directly, while Caldari would be the opposite - pirece the armor, but do shield/hull damage instead...
Of course, I'd want to see them bright yellow, something like the originals
The idea can of course be tweaked, to either be massive and large volume that takes a lot of space, or smaller, small in space as well - each powerful but not too powerful alone - in this role, a carrier could could be launching dozens of those at one target at a time (like frigates, and other small tackling ships at the battlefield) - they'd take time to reach the target, and they'd keep coming non stop, until the target either dies, lock is lost (already released ones still track it, or hit random hostiles).
Well I think this would be an interesting incentive to bring carriers more, to the front lines...
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:52:00 -
[110]
Quote: The current RoF on the super weapons is five minutes. This is because we plan to let everyone do a lot of testing on SiSi over the next several weeks. We will continue to balance based upon the results of public testing and feedback. Firing the weapon has the current effects:
* Immobility for 30 seconds.
* Jump drive non-operational for five minutes.
5 mins ok.
Quote: The difference is that instead of ruining the day of a couple hundred people (potentially worth X billions of Battleships and HACs) with the push of a single button, you are ruining the day of one person.
Random double dd
Damage done (ISK):7.91B - 7912.18M
For the hell of it. Lets call it 10 billion.
Random cap battle.
Damage done (ISK):75.73B - 75730.14M
This cap battle went on from 13:50 - 14:43 1 hour or so.
So 1 titan theoretically could destroy 20 capships in that period. Lets just go with 10 caps.
Average capship costs say 2billion. So he does 20 billion in damages.
So the titan is doing twice the damage to people. Focused all in on fewer people. Those fewer people being personally hurt far worse then those losing cheapfit bs. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
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Zhentor
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:52:00 -
[111]
WTB numbers on HP boost for both Titans and xmom's.
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Avernus
Gallente Imperium Technologies
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:53:00 -
[112]
Ah, that is some truely juice concept art. The Gallente fighter bombers do look great, sort of understandable that they'll be supercarrier exclusive in order to help give them a role. Begs the question once the testing start, is how fast can a flight of these from one 'SC?' take down your average dread or carrier.
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Vile rat
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:58:00 -
[113]
No lets talk about the moros nerf some more.
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Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:00:00 -
[114]
Originally by: CCP Abathur ęBays' Again
We are also working hard to bring the next iteration of our ębay' concept into Dominion in the form of Fighter / Fighter Bomber bays for Carriers and Supercarriers. This will allow you to better organize and separate your primary strike craft from your regular drones. In addition to allowing us to better balance the numbers of drones that these classes of ships carry around with them, we are also doing this for performance reasons. The server does not like it when Supercarriers have 1500 spare Hobgoblin II's in their drone bays and making the server happy is always a good thing.
This needs to be elaborated on.
I assume that you want to separate a Fighter/Fighter Bomber bay from the regular drone bay? So that means we'll still have a dronebay? It's quite a crucial question.
Fighters; Have alot of flaws. First off they don't hit POS (which btw is the major source to instigate a cap fight..), in those situation you field sentry drones. In the lag-fights they won't come respond. I've lost more money to Fighters than have 10min+ lags then I've lost isk to any single shiptype in this game. It's in some cases a pretty useless weaponsystem.
Sentries; Is awsome for POS bash, and in laggy fights when you want a weapon system in space you can "throw-away" while you can't control your drones. I've used Sentries alot more frequent while I flew carrier, than I used Fighters. This weaponsystem is more reliable, and cheaper in lag situation.
EWAR drones; Is a necessity. EC-xxx flights, multiple, is your self-defence vs tacklers. That and neuts is the only thing that keeps your mothership free from a HIC, for example.
Heavy/Medium/Light; Heavy/Meds are really not necessary, that's covered by Fighters and Sentries. However, the Lights is the only tool vs smaller ships and another self-defence that is pretty crucial.
Maintenance bots; My Aeon don't rep shield. But I carry several t1 flights of Shield Maintenance Bots for post-battle/POS rep. This is something incredibly useful, and in my eyes necessary.
The Fighter-system is expensive and unreliable as it is, the dronebays we have today is a necessity. As for the rest of the changes, it's pretty obvious you/CCP want our supercaps back on the battlefield (single target/turret use for Titans, Fighter Bombers for moms). At the same time we still have the 65/15bil hulls that dies to a couple of dreads.
Will I put my Aeon on field vs enemies that I know have Dreads today? No way. Will I do it if I get 100% more hp and Fighter Bombers? No way. Will I do that if I get x10 more hp and no FB's? Somewhere around here I'll start consider it. It'll take a significant survivability possibility before I use my logistic ship (that's what I bought it for) to be fielded in combat.
I'd rather see logistic (LY range, bigger maintenance bay)/survability boosts, then combat boosts, but if you have to boost combat - stop looking at the (somewhat/sometimes useless) fighters and consider what the insane amounts of capitals do to our expensive hulls instead.
And for the sake of anything, drop the incredibly lame Supercarrier-name. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Battle Tested
Shiva
|
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:03:00 -
[115]
As it stands right now capital armor reps and capital shield boosters hardly have any affect on a supercap....Shouldnt "supercarriers" and titans at least get 100% repair bonus to these modules? fitting cap rep mods on supercaps is like fitting small reppers on a battleship (basically useless) |
Talosen
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:05:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Audrea Edited by: Audrea on 15/09/2009 23:54:46 Sad news about the Moros nerf, but the rest - About DAMN TIME!!!
I would like to propose a new type of drone - just the general idea, up to you (if you like the idea), to decide which ships can use them: Basically, a new kind of drone, something like the ones Atlantis had in the Stargate tv series - you launch them at a specific target, and it cannot escape them, unless going into warp.
However, these would be ONE time use - once they impact the intended ship - they explode, doing massive damage to the enemy ship.
Perhaps even have 2 variants: Gallente one would be shield piercing technology; which bypasses shields and strikes armor/hull directly, while Caldari would be the opposite - pirece the armor, but do shield/hull damage instead...
Of course, I'd want to see them bright yellow, something like the originals
The idea can of course be tweaked, to either be massive and large volume that takes a lot of space, or smaller, small in space as well - each powerful but not too powerful alone - in this role, a carrier could could be launching dozens of those at one target at a time (like frigates, and other small tackling ships at the battlefield) - they'd take time to reach the target, and they'd keep coming non stop, until the target either dies, lock is lost (already released ones still track it, or hit random hostiles).
Well I think this would be an interesting incentive to bring carriers more, to the front lines...
We have that already. they're called "Missiles"
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Avernus
Gallente Imperium Technologies
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:06:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Avernus on 16/09/2009 00:07:17
Originally by: Vile rat No lets talk about the moros nerf some more.
Hey, I was getting there... give it a bit...
Originally by: Zastrow J I said this at the CSM summit and I'm repeating it here: while I understand the desire to keep a Moros from raping any subcap to get closer than 60km with drones, making it rely on sentries in siege to even come near the dps of the other dreads makes it by far the least desirable dread. Its only saving grace was it's ability to fight off subcaps out of siege but with that gone it's just going to be one more class of ship where Gallente is the worst.
Have to agree with the above. The primary (only) advantage of the Moros was that of a fleet defender... add in the fact that you can only target TWO things at a time while in siege along with the molasses lock time, and the Moros is flat out nerfed.
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Safina Kalare
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:07:00 -
[118]
if you nerf the moros its the last day i will play eve i spent months to learn all the skills and max them out and naw you want to punish me for my hard work and my style of play
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Pilk
Blade.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:08:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Misanth Lots of stuff about the roles of various drones.
It's very, very rare that I have the pleasure of reading the comments of someone who sees eye-to-eye with me when it comes to drones in a carrier. You may stay.
--P
Kosh: The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. Tyrrax's bet status: PAID! |
DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
|
Posted - 2009.09.16 00:10:00 -
[120]
Titans as super dreads and Motherships as super carriers is utterly, mind-numbingly boring. It takes what we can already do, and puts another spin on it - where the main difference is a "bigger hull" construction tax. What is the point of Dominion if you curb past ambitions and settle for less, without actually addressing where you went wrong?
Supercapitals didn't come out right for three reasons:
- kept relying on isk/skillpoints as a deterrent to ownership, which obviously does not work in the long run
- didn't devote enough coding resources to use unique mechanics, and instead recycled crap from the usual ship lineup
- underestimated how easily players can vaporize any amount of HP
Supercapitals should:
- NOT BE SHIPS, OR USE ANY OF THEIR MECHANICS GODDAMNIT
- be fully persistent and not go "poof" when someone decides they don't feel like defending it that day
- use reinforced/anchoring modes over passive/active tanking for defense
- require upkeep for operations just like starbases, deterring ownership for the sake of ownership through cost AND logistics
- require actual teamwork and logistics in their construction, key word: work
- require actual resources to repair and corporate roles in control
- require more than the push of a button to cyno out
- provide limited services/interactivity to allies with or without an active pilot at the helm
- not have 'normal ship' modules or slots; retrofits involving POS + time + money that leave them vulnerable
Titans should:
- automatically be reconsidered for balancing if more than a handful exist in the entire game
- have an even more powerful Doomsday, but one that does damage over time, costs major resources and leaves tactical after-effects on grid/system to screw with both sides
- not portal fleets, but carry them instead
- provide limited manufacturing capability
- scare the crap out of BOTH SIDES' FCs by preventing anything from escaping
- eat dreadnaughts for breakfast
Motherships should:
- be a viable offensive mobile base for medium-large sized corporations
- rely on signature masking, scanner spoofing and environments to "hide" from hostiles
- provide full clone services, to give fallen allies a chance to rejoin the fleet battle before its over
- provide ammo, charge, drone construction capability
All capitals should:
- NOT HAVE ANY INSURANCE, BASIC OR OTHERWISE FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFGLGHRLGHLNRNGHGHGHHGLRRR - require jumpdrive spooling that isn't so immediate/instant - have racial differences in capital stats (fuel cost, jump range, fighter bay, etc) and not just Tech 1
Alright I'm losing steam and I can't even remember half the stuff I wrote here ages ago (includes Dreadnaughts/Carriers). But the point is..
The quality of capital warfare is directly proportional to the amount of new mechanics and coding resources you throw at them, even if the whole thing is unbalanced and buggy as hell to start with.
Its disappointing that after so much talk and wait, your way of addressing supercapitals is to remove them in all but name. What is this cautious nonsense and how did it get in my CCP? >:E
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Vyktor Abyss
Gallente The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:10:00 -
[121]
Moros change just proves you really do hate us Gallente drone users right? Unnecessary.
Titan changes look ok, BUT I have to agree with other posters...you're now just going to get titan blobs ruining most cap fights especially if every 5 minutes a group of dreads is gone.
Why would any Titan or Supercarrier pilot risk joining a cap fight knowing if 2 enemy Titans show up after he's arrived he's insta-popped?
Sensible titan pilot will wait until he has a few titan friends to go super-pew anyone daft enough to field lone Supercaps.
Oh, and isn't it about time you let people somehow exit their Supercap without needing an alt?
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Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:12:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Battle Tested As it stands right now capital armor reps and capital shield boosters hardly have any affect on a supercap....Shouldnt "supercarriers" and titans at least get 100% repair bonus to these modules? fitting cap rep mods on supercaps is like fitting small reppers on a battleship (basically useless)
This gets even more important if Titans/Moms get a HP boost. Repping 9600 armor every 22 secs or something like that today is pretty damn ****ty. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:14:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Kalissa (..) cos anything less and you're gonna increase the titans survival time by minutes not the kinda time necessary for help to get to it.
If it takes more than minutes for help to get there.. the titan was.. alone?
Anyway, regarding the naming, I like 'supercarrier'. Guess I'm the only one Nobody complained about 'super capital'. Why the hate for supercarrier? When I hear supercarrier, I think for example about the Midway, and that was one hell of a cool ship. And it's similar to super star destroyer, another awesome ship class (later dubbed 'Star Dreadnoughts' - meh..). For me, there has never been anything about them that really justified the term mothership.
Supercap hitpoint-tweaking will be a tough nut. But it's a good call imho. Not more tank, just more buffer. Perhaps some rig changes (making capital effective hp a bit more predictable) would help with the balancing.
Regarding fighter-bombers, they hopefully won't be able to pop (webbed/painted) battleships all too easily.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Random Womble
Minmatar Emo Rangers Electric Monkey Overlords
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:15:00 -
[124]
While i agree with changes to the moros in general i do think that sentry drones should also be looked at they really need to be given a diffrent control range to their Heavy/med/light drone counterparts something in the region of 2-2.5x normal drone control range and as such a very slightly boosted optimal (especially on gardes) if this necessitates a slight damage reduction and/or tracking nerf so be it.
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Kersh Marelor
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:16:00 -
[125]
So... motherships (I refuse to accept the lame name you came up with!) will be a bit cheaper, say it will cost 12bil instead of 15 to get one. As that ship can be killed in two volleys now (two titans on the field is not a problem) it will die fast. How is fielding that kind of ship, worth around 20bil (crappy modules by supercap standards) better idea than bringing 10 dreads? Ok, a signle pilot issue - still how will you justify taking the risk? In my opinion either make the bomber insanely effective or give MSs insane HP/Rep boost? Or maybe make them resistant to DD in some way (not entirely resistant but in the way that could not be easily overcome by 'just' bringing in 5 titans)? Those ships are expensive enough to get some love and epicness.
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Battle Tested
Shiva
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:17:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Moros change just proves you really do hate us Gallente drone users right? Unnecessary.
Titan changes look ok, BUT I have to agree with other posters...you're now just going to get titan blobs ruining most cap fights especially if every 5 minutes a group of dreads is gone.
Why would any Titan or Supercarrier pilot risk joining a cap fight knowing if 2 enemy Titans show up after he's arrived he's insta-popped?
Sensible titan pilot will wait until he has a few titan friends to go super-pew anyone daft enough to field lone Supercaps.
Oh, and isn't it about time you let people somehow exit their Supercap without needing an alt?
well consider the cost, if titans pop 5 dreads in 5 minutes, but that dread fleet pops 1 titan every 10 minutes....who wins? |
Syberbolt8
Gallente Knights of Kador Freedom of Elbas
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:19:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote: The current RoF on the super weapons is five minutes. This is because we plan to let everyone do a lot of testing on SiSi over the next several weeks. We will continue to balance based upon the results of public testing and feedback. Firing the weapon has the current effects:
* Immobility for 30 seconds.
* Jump drive non-operational for five minutes.
5 mins ok.
Quote: The difference is that instead of ruining the day of a couple hundred people (potentially worth X billions of Battleships and HACs) with the push of a single button, you are ruining the day of one person.
Random double dd
Damage done (ISK):7.91B - 7912.18M
For the hell of it. Lets call it 10 billion.
Random cap battle.
Damage done (ISK):75.73B - 75730.14M
This cap battle went on from 13:50 - 14:43 1 hour or so.
So 1 titan theoretically could destroy 20 capships in that period. Lets just go with 10 caps.
Average capship costs say 2billion. So he does 20 billion in damages.
So the titan is doing twice the damage to people. Focused all in on fewer people. Those fewer people being personally hurt far worse then those losing cheapfit bs.
Keep in mind there is the chance that in that hour, they may lose that titian. so for the loss of 20 bil isk, you kill 60 bil.
But your right, that is worse then the current DD, the simple fact that 3 to 5 titans (which is becoming common) will clear the field of capitals, so the only way to fight this cost effectively is to jump all capitals out when a few titans show up and engage them with much cheaper BS's, and because of the much higher hit points you will need huge blobs of BS's to be effective.
CCP IMO your just asking for more BS blobs with this. Unless you set a limit to the times this thing can be fired on grid in an hour, this will be over powered for any alliance that has 5+ titans. Support the DEAD HORSE POS's |
Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente Sane Industries Inc. Novus Auctorita
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:19:00 -
[128]
Quote: "If I have an unstoppable super weapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve." - Evil Overlord Rule #40
Maybe I missed it, but here's a link to the original Evil Overlord List.
I particularly commend the attention of the devs to #12 World Domination - It's fun for the entire family! EViE - The iPhone / iPod Touch Skill Training Monitor
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:19:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Hull Blaster
Would be nice for the Supercarriers to be able to dock... but they're so effin' big how would they fit in the station environment???
Um. Titans docked dont clip the walls to much. Same with motherships. Docked Nyx Docked Erebus
Also... Supercarrier. Nobody will move to the new name. We will continue to call it Mothership. So it will only become ever so more confusing. CNR - Caldari Navy Raven? Or right it was renamed Raven Name Issue. WTS RNI. Oh right... what the hell is a RNI. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:23:00 -
[130]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist *snip*
What is this cautious nonsense and how did it get in my CCP? >:E
While I disagree with most that stuff you posted, the end is spot on. I'm not sure where the innovative CCP has gone tbh.
I understand the need for capital combat tweaking, the amount of supercaps/caps has gotten ridicilous - and over time it's more likely to increase rather than the opposite. Isk will not alone hold this back. Same time, for every day the regular cap fleet grows in number, the survivability for supercaps decreases.
Am not particulary happy to see CCP try to make "superdreads" and "supercarriers". - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
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NoNah
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:24:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Also... Supercarrier. Nobody will move to the new name. We will continue to call it Mothership. So it will only become ever so more confusing. CNR - Caldari Navy Raven? Or right it was renamed Raven Name Issue. WTS RNI. Oh right... what the hell is a RNI.
Solution to that would be to introduce a new ship, called a mothership, with an actual role.
Oh, and +1 Moros needs atleast one strength. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 606389
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speedcat
Gallente Human Liberty Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:25:00 -
[132]
WHEN DO YOU STOP HATING AND NERFING GALLENTE? CCP!!! asdjjkasdjlasd!!!
Really it's enough now. This was absolutely not necessary. And please fix the Blasters range finally (all classes) and fix drones (more hitpoints, no bumpage, and reconnect).
Grrrr....
speedcat
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Sabien Hawat
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:28:00 -
[133]
Alright there are two points reviewed here that have me horrified regarding the new patch.
1. Nerfing the Gallente dread when for patches now it has been CLEAR that amarr ships are the favored Dread, Hac, and arguably BS is disgusting. Are you guys that disconnected from this game we play?
2. The supercapital changes are embarassingly short sighted and will do NOTHING to correct the real issues with these ships. While I'm not certain the DD should stay in its current form these changes are foolish. Do you really think someone is going to take their 60 billion ISK hull and put it on a serving dish for half a min. to kill a single carrier or dread?
When a Titan or Mom are tackled pilots pour from all over to ensure its demise, rarely does a supercap get away once a fight has escalated to this point unless multiple additional titans are called in to DD the field of pilots trying to bring the target down. With the new changes not even this will save a tackled titan or mothership. You are ensuring that the ONLY players that will be able to use titans now are the ones that can field a dozen or more of them to obliterate anything in sight that offers a threat.
I can only hope that there will be a massive outcry from the community to change these proposed modifications or this is all about to get so much worse.
-A horrified gamer
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Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:31:00 -
[134]
I'm looking forward to seeing Motherships in action post patch. We might start seeing some of the in fleet fights again.
The Moros nerf is just silly. Will a Dev please explain why a ship most people think is already balanced is being nerfed in a bit more detail than; "We just feel like nerfbatting Gallente again."
Colonies and Capitals |
Vyktor Abyss
Gallente The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:34:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Battle Tested
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Moros change just proves you really do hate us Gallente drone users right? Unnecessary.
Titan changes look ok, BUT I have to agree with other posters...you're now just going to get titan blobs ruining most cap fights especially if every 5 minutes a group of dreads is gone.
Why would any Titan or Supercarrier pilot risk joining a cap fight knowing if 2 enemy Titans show up after he's arrived he's insta-popped?
Sensible titan pilot will wait until he has a few titan friends to go super-pew anyone daft enough to field lone Supercaps.
Oh, and isn't it about time you let people somehow exit their Supercap without needing an alt?
well consider the cost, if titans pop 5 dreads in 5 minutes, but that dread fleet pops 1 titan every 10 minutes....who wins?
Except I predict a significant HP increase to Titans, and they will just have a few Triage carriers backing them up....
Maybe it'll balance itself out as more supercaps pop other supercaps reducing overall numbers, but I dunno.... I got a very bad feeling about this...
Thats no moon...
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:39:00 -
[136]
Tbh, the Moros nerf is reasonable even if you don't like it. But even if it wasn't reasonable and solely intended to troll the living crap out every Gallente pilot, the whole of capital warfare is at stake.
If you're going to rage against the developer machine, focus (like some kind of super focused laser, if you will) at the official inaguration of supercapitals into the common internet space boat category where they fail at delivering on their original concept so manificently as to wipe all memory of it.
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Weaselior
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:41:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Weaselior on 16/09/2009 00:45:01
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Yeah... well... *nerf bat*
That being said, I'll take another look at their comparative damage output in the next few weeks.
That would be nice considering you just took away the one thing that made them Not A Terrible Dread.
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Tbh, the Moros nerf is reasonable even if you don't like it. But even if it wasn't reasonable and solely intended to troll the living crap out every Gallente pilot, the whole of capital warfare is at stake.
If you're going to rage against the developer machine, focus (like some kind of super focused laser, if you will) at the official inaguration of supercapitals into the common internet space boat category where they fail at delivering on their original concept so manificently as to wipe all memory of it.
The removal of the Moros offensive capability is reasonable, however it was the only thing keeping the Moros competitive since it had some other additional use. With it gone, it needs to be buffed so it's not the new Nafalgar. Sig removed, inappropriate content - Mitnal |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Novus Auctorita
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:41:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Sybilla Prior About the Titan's single-target DD... The effect is basically the same as a blob assigning a primary target: loads of damage onto a single target. But then, losing a couple of ships in your blob isn't going to decrease it's damage output by a huge amount, yet killing the titan will decrease the damage output to zero. So why should a fleet choose a titan over a conventional blob when both do the same thing but a blob is more resiliant?
The blob is of course going to stay home twiddling thumbs...
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Soleil Fournier
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:43:00 -
[139]
I'm sorry, no carrier pilot is going to enter "suicide" mode AKA triage during a fleet fight. They don't now, they won't post patch. Triage is suicide for carrier pilots because they cannot be repped by others and they'll melt in 30 seconds flat to even a small number of dreads.
That means that forcing super cap pilots to rely on carrier pilots willing to throw away their ships by entering triage is not going to work, and even if the pilot found people willing to do this, you'll buy maybe 5 minutes. That's not enough for a 20 billion ship.
A significant self repping bonus is needed. T2 capital reppers!
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Xorth Adimus
Caldari The Perfect Storm Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:47:00 -
[140]
'Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode.'
Nice.. I note I am not the first to be annoyed by this.
So out of seige: The Moros will receive no drone damage bonus with underpowered rails or unusable range blasters.
In that case out of seige: The Amarr dread should have its damage range and tracking reduced? The Caldari dread should have its range reduced? The Naglifar will be untouched because it is still screwed and is the nerf standard all dreads will be reduced too?
Flying a gimped jumpable weapon platform is too much fun as they can be used out of seige for killing stuff that isn't a pos.
OMG!
Lets make them use that oh I wanna die and lock nothing for 2 years/track nothing/ pos mode as the only possible way to use the ship. Yay more sitting about in an inflexable pos bashing mobile prison hoping you don't get dropped! Go game content go just what I wanted!
hahahaha
Add/fix features don't nerf them ffs
I actually have no problem with all dreads getting unsieged drone bonuses or something else useful in a fleet situation, especially the poor Naglifar.
Remember a Dread isn't just for POSs.. it's for WTF BBQs with big guns
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LiMu Bai
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:47:00 -
[141]
Hmm this dronedmg of the Moros is a common ship/skill bonus. Just a point. Since when siege mode is required for applying a shipbonus? For all other vessels boni are permanent, why an exception for a Moros...its just not fair OO. I vote for all other Dreads boni also require an active siege module
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Lucas Tigh
United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:51:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Trent Nichols The Moros nerf is just silly. Will a Dev please explain why a ship most people think is already balanced is being nerfed in a bit more detail than; "We just feel like nerfbatting Gallente again."
CCP: "We just feel like nerfbatting Gallente again." -------------------------------------
CCP, make me a winner.
I win. |
DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:52:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Weaselior The removal of the Moros offensive capability is reasonable, however it was the only thing keeping the Moros competitive since it had some other additional use. With it gone, it needs to be buffed so it's not the new Nafalgar.
The Moros is plenty competitive as a Dreadnaught without having the ability to facereap small stuff out of siege mode. If the Moros sucks after Dominion, it'll be overall game changes in combination with existing suckitude and not because the idiots in Oueletta can't get any kills.
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Adam C
Caldari Rionnag Alba
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:53:00 -
[144]
A very disappointing read. No creativity, just timidness and uncertainty. Where is the quality control coming in how did this get to a blog?
1,a) I like doomsdays b) I dont like the number of titans being able to doomsday. = increase the expense (isk, time, logistics) of dd's
2) destroying a cap ship with one shot maybe going from griefing 200 to 1, but its still silly. should be 70% dmg or something destorying cap ship with one shot is a solo pwn mobile. Alas the immobility with the proliferation of dreads and titans immobility of 5 minutes will deter alot of people. You can't use that as a pre-nerf to distinguish correct usage of new dd's.
Titans are giant stations. Let them anchor into a deathstar type pos. Maybe deploy remote vulnerable shielding to your fleet.
I aint doing your job for you, do better this is strange.
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Weaselior
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:55:00 -
[145]
man I was too polite seleene you ****ing idiot
lets take the worst dread, for the most-nerfed race, and nerf it
rather than looking at the huge problems with it and drone/blaster ships in general lets just be the biggest idiots ever
at least it's only 70 days to respec to a revelation Sig removed, inappropriate content - Mitnal |
Alekanderu
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.16 00:58:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Alekanderu on 16/09/2009 00:58:53
Originally by: CCP Abathur Yeah... well... *nerf bat*
That being said, I'll take another look at their comparative damage output in the next few weeks.
it's ok i did it for you!
comparing revelation to moros, using all level 5 char: 3x long range capital turrets + siege module 3x heat sink II/MFS II t1 close range (AM/multifreq) and long range (lead/infrared) ammo
Revelation in siege, no drones: 4083 dps with Multifreq, 2382 with Infrared Moros in siege, no drones: 3302 dps with AM, 2202 with Lead
Revelation in siege, sentry drones (Bouncer II): 4346 dps with Multifreq, 2382 with Infrared (since sentries can't hit at that range) Moros in siege, sentry drones (Bouncer II): 4221 dps with AM, 2202 with Lead (see above)
As we see, a Moros without its drones is massively outdamaged at close range, and is still outdamaged at long range despite being able to use a higher damage ammo thanks to the range advantage of railguns vs dual giga beams. Using sentry drones in siege (which is by far the most common scenario; using non-sentry drones while sieged is extremely rare) the Moros is still outdamaged by the Revelation at close range, although not by as much. Its damage at long range is unchanged, since its drones cannot attack that far anyway. Thus, in siege, the Revelation will always outdamage the Moros, even when the Moros has to rely on a far inferior method of delivering a large part of its damage, ie drones. Add to this the fact that a Revelation has a better tank and does not use ammo or need to reload, and anyone will see that the ONLY situation in which a Moros is currently more useful than a Revelation is when it is out of siege. Removing that advantage will make the Moros vastly inferior to the Revelation in every single way.
In fact, the Moros as it stands right now is the worst dread for most scenarios apart from fighting subcaps OOS - it could actually use a buff. Preferably this would be a huge increase in its drone control range and a bonus to sentry drone optimal range so that it can actually use sentry drones beyond 50ish km - perhaps this bonus could be tied to sieging. It certainly does not in any way need a nerf. If, however, you are adamant on removing its unsieged drone bonus, then buff its gun damage instead.
As an aside, note that I am not comparing close range guns, since they have an incredibly niche role (mostly limited to suicide ganking jump freighters and the like on a pos) and are fundamentally inferior when it comes to utility compared to long range guns; using the performance of siege blasters/pulses would be like comparing battleships based on how well they perform as suicide smartbombers.
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:02:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Weaselior no, it's the worst dread by far, which was only made up for by having another use; if you take that use away that is papering over the bad decisions you made before then you need to correct those bad decisions
Well, I don't agree on the principle that it does direct damage at long range. Dread fights have only gotten bigger, and will only continue to get bigger. Moros is competitive for the same reason that a Megathron is competitive in fleet battles and a Raven or Typhoon are not.
They pimped the Naglrofl quite well recently, but its still Revelation > Moros >>>> everything else if you get into a big brawl. Maybe at pure POS siege where you don't get jumped does overall DPS mean anything.
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Lucas Tigh
United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:06:00 -
[148]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Weaselior no, it's the worst dread by far, which was only made up for by having another use; if you take that use away that is papering over the bad decisions you made before then you need to correct those bad decisions
Well, I don't agree on the principle that it does direct damage at long range. Dread fights have only gotten bigger, and will only continue to get bigger. Moros is competitive for the same reason that a Megathron is competitive in fleet battles and a Raven or Typhoon are not.
They pimped the Naglrofl quite well recently, but its still Revelation > Moros >>>> everything else if you get into a big brawl. Maybe at pure POS siege where you don't get jumped does overall DPS mean anything.
Hello,
Please come back to this thread when you know what you're talking about.
Love, Everyone -------------------------------------
CCP, make me a winner.
I win. |
Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:09:00 -
[149]
Make moros drone bonus apply only in siege, but make siege double drone control range and sentry optimal range.
Bouncers to 120km? Yes please.
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Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:14:00 -
[150]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Weaselior no, it's the worst dread by far, which was only made up for by having another use; if you take that use away that is papering over the bad decisions you made before then you need to correct those bad decisions
Well, I don't agree on the principle that it does direct damage at long range. Dread fights have only gotten bigger, and will only continue to get bigger. Moros is competitive for the same reason that a Megathron is competitive in fleet battles and a Raven or Typhoon are not.
They pimped the Naglrofl quite well recently, but its still Revelation > Moros >>>> everything else if you get into a big brawl. Maybe at pure POS siege where you don't get jumped does overall DPS mean anything.
You realise the naglrofl with its 2 guns does the same dps as a moros at 200km with 3, right?
And at under 60km it does exactly the same damage as a rev but double the alpha, right, while not using any cap and having a 13kdps tank?
Yeah naglfar is what we should be BOOSTING the moros to, not the other way round.
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Weaselior
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:14:00 -
[151]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Weaselior no, it's the worst dread by far, which was only made up for by having another use; if you take that use away that is papering over the bad decisions you made before then you need to correct those bad decisions
Well, I don't agree on the principle that it does direct damage at long range. Dread fights have only gotten bigger, and will only continue to get bigger. Moros is competitive for the same reason that a Megathron is competitive in fleet battles and a Raven or Typhoon are not.
They pimped the Naglrofl quite well recently, but its still Revelation > Moros >>>> everything else if you get into a big brawl. Maybe at pure POS siege where you don't get jumped does overall DPS mean anything.
the nag does the same damage, then the citadel torpedos hit (the sentry drones never hit) Sig removed, inappropriate content - Mitnal |
DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:17:00 -
[152]
But does your Naglrofl have the smile of a gentle grouper fish?
Yes, it seems I'm terrible at steering this thread away from further discussion of the Moros nerf.
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ElanMorin6
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:17:00 -
[153]
Someone go pinch Seleene so he wakes up and realizes that it's no longer 2005.
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Karlemgne
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:21:00 -
[154]
Awesome blog. One complaint from someone with Gallente Dreadnought 5--you have just transformed the Moros, quite easily to the worst dread. Its main role as anti-support--at least in the fights I get in--is at an end.
Its now mostly useless to me as I am sure it will be to many others.
-Karlemgne My sig don't fracking work. |
TYCONDEROGA
Amarr The Inf1dels IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:21:00 -
[155]
Been here since early 04'
Piloted capitals from every race, and all I can say is:
Awesome
Keep up the good work
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Trenjeska
Chumly Incorporated Space Exploration and Logistic Services
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:28:00 -
[156]
Ah well and I was so looking forward to a moros BECAUSE of it's OOS drone bonus. I like the versatality. This blog saves me the training of Gallente BS V. It seems a Rorqual is getting better and better (as it will be the only ship fitting the Clone vat now) and hey! it can DOCK :D
And yes up to train Amarr BS now ^^
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Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:32:00 -
[157]
Actually I'm quite happy about the rest of the changes although I do see some of them problematic with implementation, but thats something CCP has to work on not myself. The moros nerf just seems a little out of the blue when I've not really seen anyone complain about it at all since I started playing. I mean, it makes sense in the context of the ship, kinda, but I can bet a deciding factor of which race dread to train for was decided for a lot of people by that base drone bonus. It allows a capital fleet to work with some degree of subcap protection of its own (e.g. You get jumped by subcaps, entire fleet drops out of siege, aligns out and moroses attempt to **** tacklers with drones). I can see why CCP might not want that because "capitals should always be deployed with support" but its pretty gay to just completely remove one aspect of its' use without making up for it in any other way, especially on one of the weaker dreads.
I can tell you for a fact no-one trained for a moros because of siege rails or blasters (thats another thing that needs work, heh)
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Yaay
Game-Over
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:33:00 -
[158]
I'm currious how does allowing any sort of defined super weapon with direct damage not create a problem in this game. Obviously this refers to the titan.
Any sort of 1 shot kill weapon, whether it's AOE against BS, or single shot kill against virtually any ship is going to be exploited immensely with numbers. If the weapon is at all good enough to want to field a titan, entities are going to want to field 20, 30, or however many might be enough. It's simply the worst form of class warfare in this game, and it's going to benefit older players who have already exploited horrible old systems in this game rather than deal with the new/changing mechanics of 0.0.
The reason I proposed, and Vuk supported an indirect effect weapon is that it combats every issue of stacking large sums of titans on field. It makes them vulnerable but effective without being frustrating 1 shot killers.
So I think the appropriate question is, how can you give titans any sort of direct damage super weapon that won't be exploited and overpowered?
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Yunii
Gallente Black Serpent Technologies Atropos.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:33:00 -
[159]
maybe drop the moros drone bonus to 30% or even 20% not take away the whole 50%. Or up the turret damage to be more inline with the Rev..
Otherwise, thanks for wasting 2 months of my and quite a few other peoples time..
------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Arkanon I think this thread also illustrates perfectly that we neither censor nor do we try to silence our customers. |
Infinion
Caldari Endless Destruction
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:33:00 -
[160]
I think that the warfare link bonus on titans should be removed for something in its place. If what you say is true that guns will be given bonuses that would make not fitting capital guns silly, then that leaves 2 high slots left (in the avatar and Erebus' case) with the other 2 high slots naturally going to their focused doomsday and jump portal generator. It would seem silly even now to fit a warfare link on a titan since they don't have an effectiveness bonus to boost them (and if you're going to use a titan, you sure as hell should have a support fleet with at least 1 command ship utilizing its warfare link bonuses.)
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rgreat
Gallente OEG GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:49:00 -
[161]
Edited by: rgreat on 16/09/2009 01:54:33
Railgun Moros already have lowest damage dealing rating compared to any other dread in space... Now CCP will nerf its damage output even more. WTF are you thinking about CCP?
Do not even start about fitting Moros with blasters.... outside of test server these setups fail completely. 15 km range in fleet fight while you are close to stationary is uselless and actually never used in fleet combat.
. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
Casiella Truza
Back Alley Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:55:00 -
[162]
Nice concept art on the Titan weapon, think I'll take it.
/me sets new background. -- EVE Blog EVE Twitter |
Rake Mizar
Hate Incorporated Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:55:00 -
[163]
Maybe you should rename it the Lessos... |
Gespenst Jager
Pumpkin Scissors DarkSide.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 01:56:00 -
[164]
Moros never was a problem. Ship bonus only in siege mode - lol.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 02:03:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Gespenst Jager Moros never was a problem. Ship bonus only in siege mode - lol.
I think they got the idea it was a problem because in some circles Moros is so popular. Someone forgot that nag was a joke, amarr was gimped for years, and so it left many with getting gallente bs5 first for mega/domi rr gangs.
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.09.16 02:07:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Casiella Truza Nice concept art on the Titan weapon, think I'll take it.
/me sets new background.
It's like seeing photoshopped gore. My thanatos just booked the next month off for vacation; not sure it's coming back. It has been scarred for the rest of it's life.
Why couldnt they have rendered a Hel or something... Nobody flies Hels. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Hyneid Fehlhaishyo
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Posted - 2009.09.16 02:24:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Rake Mizar Maybe you should rename it the Lessos...
Touche'
All the changes are very interesting and definitely a huge step in the right direction (except of course, the poor Moros, which now needs a little love).
Good Job CCP and CSMs.
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Darth Sith
Genbuku. Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.09.16 02:26:00 -
[168]
My only fear is that the super weapon, as with anything in the game, gets bent into unintented uses.
My case in point, the PL / Goon titan conga line. For giggles they line up over 20 titans and DD a carrier to death simply because they can. Now we are introducing a superweapon that can inflict capital killing damage on a target. What is to stop the same thing where someone comes in with 10+ titans, lock a tower , all fire their siege weapons and reinforce it in 1 shot. The tower would be reinforced and the titans gone before someone sees the first mail from the tower.
Is this (highly probable I might add) scenerio being addressed in the balace testing ?
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Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
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Posted - 2009.09.16 02:32:00 -
[169]
I had a long post written out but my browser ate it, tl;dr version;
- changes are crappy
- titans will be too weak even with a massive hp boost.
- Fighter bombers are the only good change. Leave motherships otherwise the way they are
- too much like conventional ships, more "cool" factor required (can't titans have some sort of sustained fortified mode that has a limited duration based on the fleets ability to provide it with ice materials, this would allow it to be effectively invulnerable as long as it has a support fleet with it, or some other feature that would have a similar level of impact without doing direct AE damage??).
- moros changes are like kicking a dead horse, buff all dreads so that they are more effective against conventional fleets, and reasonably equal in terms of sniping dps. also, rethink all capital weapon systems balance based on the fact that their primary role will not be to shoot starbases.....
--
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donęt forget the reach-around.
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Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.16 02:40:00 -
[170]
Edited by: Korinn on 16/09/2009 02:40:52 Also add a subcapital ship which can field fighter bombers, but has horrible EHP and is only useful for dealing sick dps to capitals
(but getting ****d at the same time, glass cannon style)
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Justin Cody
Caldari Apocalypse Enterprises Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.16 02:42:00 -
[171]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 16/09/2009 00:46:31 Titans as super dreads and Motherships as super carriers is utterly, mind-numbingly boring. It takes what we can already do, and puts another spin on it - where the main difference is a "bigger hull" construction tax. What is the point of Dominion if you curb past ambitions and settle for less, without actually addressing where you went wrong?
Supercapitals didn't come out right for three reasons:
- kept relying on isk/skillpoints as a deterrent to ownership, which obviously does not work in the long run
- didn't devote enough coding resources to use unique mechanics, and instead recycled crap from the usual ship lineup
- underestimated how easily players can vaporize any amount of HP
Supercapitals should:
- NOT BE SHIPS, OR USE ANY OF THEIR MECHANICS GODDAMNIT
- be fully persistent and not go "poof" when someone decides they don't feel like defending it that day
- use reinforced/anchoring modes over passive/active tanking for defense
- require upkeep for operations just like starbases, deterring ownership for the sake of ownership through cost AND logistics
- require actual teamwork and logistics in their construction, key word: work
- require actual resources to repair and corporate roles in control
- require more than the push of a button to cyno out
- provide limited services/interactivity to allies with or without an active pilot at the helm
- not have 'normal ship' modules or slots; retrofits involving POS + time + money that leave them vulnerable
Titans should:
- automatically be reconsidered for balancing if more than a handful exist in the entire game
- have an even more powerful Doomsday, but one that does damage over time, costs major resources and leaves tactical after-effects on grid/system to screw with both sides
- not portal fleets, but carry them instead
- provide limited manufacturing capability
- scare the crap out of BOTH SIDES' FCs by preventing anything from escaping
- eat dreadnaughts for breakfast
Motherships should:
- be a viable offensive mobile base for medium-large sized corporations
- rely on signature masking, scanner spoofing and environments to "hide" from hostiles
- provide full clone services, to give fallen allies a chance to rejoin the fleet battle before its over
- provide ammo, charge, drone construction capability
All capitals should:
- NOT HAVE ANY INSURANCE, BASIC OR OTHERWISE FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFGLGHRLGHLNRNGHGHGHHGLRRR
- require jumpdrive spooling that isn't so immediate/instant
- have racial differences in capital stats (fuel cost, jump range, fighter bay, etc) and not just Tech 1
Alright I'm losing steam and I can't even remember half the stuff I wrote here ages ago (includes Dreadnaughts/Carriers). But the point is..
The quality of capital warfare is directly proportional to the amount of new mechanics and coding resources you throw at them, even if the whole thing is unbalanced and buggy as hell to start with.
It's disappointing that after so much talk and wait, your way of addressing supercapitals is to remove them in all but name. What is this cautious nonsense and how did it get in my CCP? >:E
BE A MAN.
I am in love with you for saying all of these things...it won't happen Remind people that profit is the difference between revenue and expense. This makes you look smart. Scott Adams
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2009.09.16 02:59:00 -
[172]
You all need to get back in T1 cruiser hulls and actually have fun.
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something somethingdark
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:03:00 -
[173]
Titans : Still has the potential of being horribly gamebreaking like people sayd : Reinforcing poses with a titan driveby... The other issue would be the lack of survieability once a titan is tackled ... a raise in buffer probably wont help offset that
and i hope the titans "other" weapons will now be actualy usefull
Supercarriers : Ummmm.... why take away clone vat and triage ?
Are the Fighterbombers going to be significantly more "tanked" than regular Fighters or less ?
Dreads : What i find currious is that there is so much goon whineage about the moros nerf Are there so many goons using the Moros to stationcamp ?
Are people(not just goons) complaining that the dps is so low without drones because they only field sniping dreads ?
Personaly i welcome the change (and no i havent been violenced by a stationcamping moros and nor has my sister ) maybe a token boost to something useless like cap or so would help in making people accept the change more easily
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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:04:00 -
[174]
Edited by: Terranid Meester on 16/09/2009 03:05:14 I don't mind supercarriers as a new name. Names don't really matter anyway.
However their role as an anti-capital capital is flawed if someone brings in two or three titans to target one and then blows it to bits. The fighter bombers should be capable of being like fighters and therefore should be able to be assigned in case some titans pop up.
Personally I think all capital ships (including freighters and jump freighters) should require constant maintenance (you would have to pay isk to maintain them every week or so)when not in use thereby acting as an isk sink and reducing the number of capitals (theoretically) being used. The Moros was fine just the way it was, as it did something different to other dreadnaughts and removing variety like that when it wasn't actually overpowered is a poor decision.
Personally I am also waiting for the time, when a bunch of frigates can target a titan doomsday sub-system and take it out.
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Jordan Musgrat
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:10:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Jordan Musgrat on 16/09/2009 03:14:06 DC has some good points for once, but regardless, the problem here is that you just turned titans into the new black ops. I doubt you know how effective black ops are, but titans are to carriers what black ops are to ratters. You gather up 5 titans, start spreading cyno recons out, wait till you can get a few carriers to undock and aggro your recon to defend their system, and bam, instant cyno in, 5 carriers instapopped.
You definitely just changed the titan into a big gank dreadnought. That's not the direction you were looking for.
Do not **** up titans and tell us "ya but we'll fix them later," that's like messing with ECM and making us wait a year for it to be fixed, or messing with the Arazu/Pilgrim and then never really giving them their role back. Titans need some sort of area effect, otherwise instead of nerfing their role, you change it.
You should know by now, that completely revamping a shipclass is not usually the best way to nerf it. If you need ideas, ask, please. Also Motherships need something more than what they have, or what you're giving them. I'm not sure what that should be, maybe invulnerability to focused hicktor points? I can see someone bubbling a mothership from 15km away, but not someone sitting with a small cap injector, an afterburner, and a little local tank, and keeping the second most powerful ship in the entire game sitting like a duck as long as it likes from 30km away. Telling Mothership pilots that they should be fitting neuts is not the answer, that's like telling Titans they should be filling their highs with smartbombs, which is not what you want.
edit: Also if the fighter bombers are to have any chance, try giving them a 15km orbit range, and a 1500 m/s speed, launching their torps from there. That's about the only way you'll keep them from being ineffective and eventually obsolete, as people will simply bunch up carriers with smarties and sit there protecting their dreads. Even more range might be good tbh. -----------
Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0... |
Mahke
Aeon Of Strife Dominatus Atrum Mortis
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:20:00 -
[176]
I really like that the doomsday is gone.
The moros change though: I was torn between training my alt for a carrier and a moros. I will DEFINITELY be going carrier now. I can see why the status-quo on those was perhaps a little to strong, but, siege-only drone-bonused moros's will be perhaps too weak.
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Dskreet
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:27:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Terranid Meester Edited by: Terranid Meester on 16/09/2009 03:07:56 Edited by: Terranid Meester on 16/09/2009 03:05:14 I don't mind supercarriers as a new name. Names don't really matter anyway.
Details matter, everything matters, you should always shoot for perfection.
In any case, I agree that the name is lame because it's not descriptive of it's new role, it makes it sound like it's just a bigger carrier.
As an example, I would prefer something like 'Tactical Heavy Carriers', descriptive, plus it opens up all kinds of possibilities for pot jokes as you talk about THC deployments!
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Jordan Musgrat
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:28:00 -
[178]
Actually now that I think of it, you're very unlikely to change any of this, aren't you CCP? These apparently are your finalized products, and once again, you've waited until you already put all these plans in motion to get our feedback.
The other reaon you won't change your mind is because Seleene is a new dev, and half of the other CCP people will feel sorry for him when people who know their **** tell him the titan change is ******ed, and the other half won't want to invalidate everything he's done since becoming a dev, because I'm guessing this is the bulk of his work. I'm sorry, but Seleene hasn't been able to wrap his mind around this game for a while. He never got over the MC sadly, or not really the alliance, rather the vision for that kind of gameplay, and the mechanics that would be needed to support it.
Once again, do NOT screw up titans now just so you can fix them later. They are too big of a resource for you to make them useless for 6 months or however long it takes to get some decent ideas. It's hilarious that we get CCP devs asking for our input on foucking ECM drones, and all you say about the most important ship in the game is "titan nerf incoming" until you actually tell us what the nerf is, which happens to be an actual removal of the titan role from the game, until you can figure out what to do with it. -----------
Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0... |
Serj Darek
Minmatar Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:33:00 -
[179]
I am dumbfounded by the proposed changes to super-caps. Taking away the primary functions of them all seems a bit hasty, but I suppose they are making the changes for the "future players" of the game, think Dust. Most of the changes are simple byproducts of whining, which is somewhat depressing to say the least.
The simple fact that Titans are popping almost weekly should suggest that modifications are not needed, but changing things a couple of years after it should have been done seems moronic. Who in their right mind will ever want a ship that is locked into place for ninety seconds after firing a directional attack, while waiting five minutes between cycles? Now instead of having to be able to tank a couple of DD's you are rolling the dice when showing up for a fleet when titans may get involved. Instead of tanking DD's you are making it so there is no defense against the directional firing of a DD, good job on balancing.
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jeffb
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:33:00 -
[180]
Hard to see how a dread fleet will perform against a titan + carrier fleet with these changes. Will siege mode also have its duration/fuel use halved (or more)?
Will I be able to dock a supercap come Dominion?
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Serj Darek
Minmatar Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:43:00 -
[181]
Originally by: jeffb Hard to see how a dread fleet will perform against a titan + carrier fleet with these changes. Will siege mode also have its duration/fuel use halved (or more)?
Will I be able to dock a supercap come Dominion?
The sad part is I doubt anything is set in concrete at this point, until after the ever important SISI testing. In my opinion most of the comments made by CCP at this point I'm taking with a grain of salt until Dominion goes live.
I surely can't be the only person ****ed off by a good portion of these changes.
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Yaay
Game-Over
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:44:00 -
[182]
Edited by: Yaay on 16/09/2009 03:44:46
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Digi and I agree totally on the concept of these ships. I will point out that I aimed to fix the problems with titans via my DD proposal here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1014819
and further emphasized here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1052103
These changes do nothing to make titans more than giant dreads. We saw how dreads proliferated after time, I expect the same of titans in the future.
I tend to like some of the change to motherships, but I agree totally that it seems uninspired. Motherships should be able to repair ships. Not heal their hulls, or do other stupid stuff, but repair damaged ships modules for resource cost.
It would add another dimension to heat, and the proposed DD changes and give both ships more unique roles on combat and use. I like Digi's idea of a DOT weapon as well, which could be another part of the arsinal of titans if done correctly.
Neither of these ships should be direct projections of power the way devs have tried, and are trying to do in an optimal environment. They should be 2ndary projectors that have huge implications in fights without actually deciding the fights simply by show of force.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Disv
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:45:00 -
[183]
All i can say is that the changed do not seem to be thought through. You appear to have had a brainstorming session thought "Ooo that sounds alright, lets do it and to hell with the implications" and are screwing things up. Your killing a game your supposed to be doctoring and while you sit at your bloody desks getting paid to make stupid decisions, were all reading your crap and getting very annoyed at you.
Your Killing the Gallente Dreadnaught, Damage is quite obviously not even on capital weapon level. Hybrids are weak compared to the rest and you want to "Spend the next couple of weeks checking the damages on all Dreads"?? Im not being funny here, but you have to be pretty bloody stupid if your gonna nerf something you havnt already tested and confirmed. You should have the numbers, you should know what ships are capable of what, HELL a lot of people outside of CCP run the numbers for you! Buff the Guns, Ditch the Drone Bonus, Everyone is Happy! Dont for the love of god mess up again.
Titans.... touchy subject, i actually like Doomsday, and i think you only want to change it because it lags your server. The doomsday is fine as it is except for one thing 3-4 x DD in short periods, Prevent this by BS'ing, a residual effect of the First DD or some crap.
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Serj Darek
Minmatar Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2009.09.16 03:53:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Disv All i can say is that the changed do not seem to be thought through. You appear to have had a brainstorming session thought "Ooo that sounds alright, lets do it and to hell with the implications" and are screwing things up. Your killing a game your supposed to be doctoring and while you sit at your bloody desks getting paid to make stupid decisions, were all reading your crap and getting very annoyed at you.
Your Killing the Gallente Dreadnaught, Damage is quite obviously not even on capital weapon level. Hybrids are weak compared to the rest and you want to "Spend the next couple of weeks checking the damages on all Dreads"?? Im not being funny here, but you have to be pretty bloody stupid if your gonna nerf something you havnt already tested and confirmed. You should have the numbers, you should know what ships are capable of what, HELL a lot of people outside of CCP run the numbers for you! Buff the Guns, Ditch the Drone Bonus, Everyone is Happy! Dont for the love of god mess up again.
Titans.... touchy subject, i actually like Doomsday, and i think you only want to change it because it lags your server. The doomsday is fine as it is except for one thing 3-4 x DD in short periods, Prevent this by BS'ing, a residual effect of the First DD or some crap.
The Gallente dread is fine the way it is now, the only dread that can kill sub-caps.
The Titan fix has been spewed on forums the last couple of years, a single dd per grid per hour. I would add a damage over time to the grid for ships only.
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Letifer Deus
Bannable Offense. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 04:03:00 -
[185]
Quote: The simple fact is that this class of ship now stays mostly parked on trained alts and is rarely used as they are nothing more than expensive targets for hungry legions of Dread pilots.
I hope this major problem is addressed. It will also need to be addressed with titans given their role being changed from "drive by DD" to something staying on the field. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Novus Auctorita
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Posted - 2009.09.16 04:28:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab on 16/09/2009 04:30:25
Originally by: Darth Sith My case in point, the PL / Goon titan conga line. For giggles they line up over 20 titans and DD a carrier to death simply because they can. Now we are introducing a superweapon that can inflict capital killing damage on a target. What is to stop the same thing where someone comes in with 10+ titans, lock a tower , all fire their siege weapons and reinforce it in 1 shot. The tower would be reinforced and the titans gone before someone sees the first mail from the tower.
So a 5 min window to get a hictor or 5 ready? Sounds good.
Originally by: Serj Darek The Gallente dread is fine the way it is now, the only dread that can kill sub-caps.
Yes, that's sounds _SO_ fine and not in any way counter to the supposed roles dreads have.
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FelixDerGrieche
Gallente United Pilots of Germany
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Posted - 2009.09.16 04:37:00 -
[187]
Sry for Capslock but....
JUMP PORTAL GENERATOR FOR MOTHERSHIPS/SUPERCARRIERS LOL
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 04:43:00 -
[188]
I don't understand this obsession of pretending we are getting closer to the mark based on how long a Titan has to stay on the field.
The value of the Titan concept in EVE is based on how utterly, ridiculously overpowered they can be without ruining the game completely.
You can balance them such that ~300 in existence doesn't kill the game, but why would you ever want that? If a real implementation were ever developed, the current ones should be stripped and reduced to capital components.
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Fearless M0F0
Coalition Of Nations.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 04:47:00 -
[189]
So another expansion, yet another nerf to gallente
Why don't you wipe out the whole damn race, make us all Amarr and be done with it
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Zex Maxwell
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.16 04:58:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Zex Maxwell on 16/09/2009 05:03:05 Here is a Q for you CCP:
Will you make the mother... I mean Suppercarriers transform? or other capital ships?
Or will the Rorqual be the only cap ship that can transform.
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FelixDerGrieche
Gallente United Pilots of Germany
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Posted - 2009.09.16 05:01:00 -
[191]
Originally by: something somethingdark Titans :
Dreads : What i find currious is that there is so much goon whineage about the moros nerf Are there so many goons using the Moros to stationcamp ?
Are people(not just goons) complaining that the dps is so low without drones because they only field sniping dreads ?
Personaly i welcome the change (and no i havent been violenced by a stationcamping moros and nor has my sister )
No but i think Gallente got the bad stats in eve.... Railguns and Blaster doesnt work very well.... The Moros is a dread, anti support drohnes are a mistake from the beginning so they fix it. But what ppl whine about is that gallente weapon systems arent working as good as they should! Rails dont hit anything and Blasters are too much close range lol. I think they should Boost hybrid weapons first before remove the extra dps on the Moros witch makes it Balanced to the Revelation Or Naglfar...
But im not exactly sure about it, i dont fly gallente dread.... To fly any Gallente ship with Hybrid weapon Bonusses is enough.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.09.16 05:09:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Jordan Musgrat Actually now that I think of it, you're very unlikely to change any of this, aren't you CCP? These apparently are your finalized products, and once again, you've waited until you already put all these plans in motion to get our feedback.
The other reaon you won't change your mind is because Seleene is a new dev, and half of the other CCP people will feel sorry for him when people who know their **** tell him the titan change is ******ed, and the other half won't want to invalidate everything he's done since becoming a dev, because I'm guessing this is the bulk of his work. I'm sorry, but Seleene hasn't been able to wrap his mind around this game for a while. He never got over the MC sadly, or not really the alliance, rather the vision for that kind of gameplay, and the mechanics that would be needed to support it.
Once again, do NOT screw up titans now just so you can fix them later. They are too big of a resource for you to make them useless for 6 months or however long it takes to get some decent ideas. It's hilarious that we get CCP devs asking for our input on foucking ECM drones, and all you say about the most important ship in the game is "titan nerf incoming" until you actually tell us what the nerf is, which happens to be an actual removal of the titan role from the game, until you can figure out what to do with it.
Your previous post was good and had some relevance, you should have left it at that and passed on posting this drivel. Apparently you have bone to pick with Seleene, but the only thing you did with this pointless personal attack was abandon your fairly reasonable points for mud slinging. Kindly restrict that crap to CAOD.
My opinion on these changes is mixed, I think I'll wait until I have some numbers to crunch before I get too carried away either pro or con. The new "Super Weapon" makes me nervous, but then again so did the traditional doomsday. The full potential of this new path will very probably depend on what the "other" options Titans will eventually be able to implement turn out to be.
One thing I am leaning favorably toward is the fighter/bomber concept for Super Carriers. This has great potential depending on the actual effectiveness and survivability the fighter/bomber ends up with (and yes, that may depend heavily on what range they can engage from).
However, I think it is important that the concept of a "Mother Ship" not be lost completely. A mobile base of operations is an excellent concept that should be realized sooner rather than later in a new (and hopefully last) Super Capital ship, one designed from the ground up specifically for that purpose. Preferably one that transforms in "Siege Mode" and has lots of spiny, wingy bits (I like spiny wingy bits).
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Alekanderu
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.16 05:27:00 -
[193]
Originally by: something somethingdark
Dreads : What i find currious is that there is so much goon whineage about the moros nerf Are there so many goons using the Moros to stationcamp ?
Are people(not just goons) complaining that the dps is so low without drones because they only field sniping dreads ?
Personaly i welcome the change (and no i havent been violenced by a stationcamping moros and nor has my sister ) maybe a token boost to something useless like cap or so would help in making people accept the change more easily
have you ever even flown a dreadnaught in 0.0? because it sure seems like you have no idea what you're talking about at all
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Jordan Musgrat
H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.09.16 05:39:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Your previous post was good and had some relevance, you should have left it at that and passed on posting this drivel. Apparently you have bone to pick with Seleene, but the only thing you did with this pointless personal attack was abandon your fairly reasonable points for mud slinging. Kindly restrict that crap to CAOD.
My opinion on these changes is mixed, I think I'll wait until I have some numbers to crunch before I get too carried away either pro or con. The new "Super Weapon" makes me nervous, but then again so did the traditional doomsday. The full potential of this new path will very probably depend on what the "other" options Titans will eventually be able to implement turn out to be.
One thing I am leaning favorably toward is the fighter/bomber concept for Super Carriers. This has great potential depending on the actual effectiveness and survivability the fighter/bomber ends up with (and yes, that may depend heavily on what range they can engage from).
However, I think it is important that the concept of a "Mother Ship" not be lost completely. A mobile base of operations is an excellent concept that should be realized sooner rather than later in a new (and hopefully last) Super Capital ship, one designed from the ground up specifically for that purpose. Preferably one that transforms in "Siege Mode" and has lots of spiny, wingy bits (I like spiny wingy bits).
You're prolly right tbh, it was just me being bitter about seeing ccp have a good idea then implement it poorly, before we have a chance to give them any input. But coming from seleene, this kind of a change does make sense. It just isn't the direction that eve needs to go in, and rather than reduce titan blobbing, this will make it necessary, along with blobbing carriers along with them since you'll have a huge window of time to tackle them.
Also, someone somewhere else said something about a new class of true motherships, I think that would be great. If they give supercarriers this role, then give us motherships with working clone vats and huge smas with less offensive capabilities, it would be awesome. -----------
Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0... |
Lena Planeswalker
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.09.16 05:45:00 -
[195]
Originally by: FelixDerGrieche
the moros needs the drone bonuses to balance to the other races otherwise its no dmg dealer^^
I fully agree, but you should only get access to that damage when your in siege like all the other dreads, and that is exactly what they have done. Good job CCP.
It will still effectively be the only dread that has a chance at killing subcaps, you just need to be in siege now, oh noes...
didn't like that sig anyways... |
AbudSeab
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Posted - 2009.09.16 05:50:00 -
[196]
didn't read all thread but didn't see anyone asking, so:
What will be done to prevent a Titan blob ?
People will reach skill to fly one with time, and material/money do not appears to be a problem for large alliances. So a Blob of Titans and interdictors sounds nice
stop/paint target, turns it in smoke, stop/paint target, turns it in smoke, stop/paint target, turns it in smoke, ...
And by what I see any kind of remote assistance (RR) will be useless if target dies in one single shot ! ! ! There's nothing to repair
In other worlds: Will a titan new weapon be able to smoke a cruiser or a BS heavy painted/webfied ?
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.09.16 05:50:00 -
[197]
Supercarriers?? Arrrrrrg. HORRIBLE NAME!!!
Also I dont understand why the clone bay is removed.
What exactly is the role of those new supercarriers? Just a bit bigger carrier which can deal more dps and tank a bit better?
What was wrong with the clone bay? Why wasn't it used? Why isn't CCP analysing that? Why are they throwing away some good potential without need?
Why not make the clone bay BETTER instead of just taking it away?
Here my suggestions:
- Keep the name 'mothership'
- Improve the clone bay
- Make motherships be able to jump to covert ops cynos
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.16 05:55:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Lena Planeswalker
It will still effectively be the only dread that has a chance at killing subcaps, you just need to be in siege now, oh noes...
That would almost make sense if subcapital target management was feasible while in siege mode.
Forgive people for getting ****ed that the one advantage of having 1/4 to 1/3 of your damage tied up in destroyable, bump-off-able, (relatively) short-range weapons systems is being torn from them. ----
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evs
Genco Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:00:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Lena Planeswalker
I fully agree, but you should only get access to that damage when your in siege like all the other dreads, and that is exactly what they have done. Good job CCP.
It will still effectively be the only dread that has a chance at killing subcaps, you just need to be in siege now, oh noes...
if you shoot poses you need to use sentries, and good luck getting them back into your drone bay after they get spit out anywhere from 2km-11km away (especially in laggy situations), or you get bumped... and its no use trying to kill subcaps with drones while sieged, 2 locked targets and abysmal locking time... o and dont forget the maximum 60km range
if they are serious about this, it needs some other bonuses, specifically and especially to drone control range, and sentry optimal range, as well as sentry speed (100m/s maybe?) when you recall them, all only in siege of course
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AbudSeab
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:00:00 -
[200]
By the way, supercarries aren't a nice name
BS could be supercruisers, or cruisers could be superfrigs.
Hope you guys will find a better name, or at least just call then tier 2 carries. We have three tier for BS, and four tiers of cruisers. What's wrong with two tiers of carries ?
Or turn them faction carries ... Ok, not a amazing idea, but yet better than supercarries ! ! !
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jeffb
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:03:00 -
[201]
You might also want to look at some form of diminishing returns on these new titan weapons now too, if your ship is hit and survives the next dd will do less damage. I'm sure you can come up with some roleplaying bull****.
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Dri Kulsane
Amarr Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:04:00 -
[202]
Good blog, just don't feel warm to the idea of Mom's being re-defined as another type now.
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PMolkenthin
League Of Shadows.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:06:00 -
[203]
Fokkin' awesome!!! There might be some Titan pilot tears, but good news for everyone else. Also the Mothership changes are spot on. Lets hope they drop to like 4bil, then I might buy one. Could still do with being able to dock though :) Good job Abathur
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Sunsets
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:13:00 -
[204]
Hey CCP Abathur can you elaborate on your thinking behind the Moros change, especially compared to the other race dreadnoughts?
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Lena Planeswalker
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:18:00 -
[205]
Originally by: evs
Originally by: Lena Planeswalker
if you shoot poses you need to use sentries, and good luck getting them back into your drone bay after they get spit out anywhere from 2km-11km away (especially in laggy situations), or you get bumped...
and how is this different from now?, or are you saying you don't siege your dread when you bashing a pos?
Originally by: evs
and its no use trying to kill subcaps with drones while sieged, 2 locked targets and abysmal locking time... o and dont forget the maximum 60km range
Well i was only implying you actually still have a chance, my chance was taken away in QR and the missile nerf
Originally by: evs
if they are serious about this, it needs some other bonuses, specifically and especially to drone control range, and sentry optimal range, as well as sentry speed (100m/s maybe?) when you recall them, all only in siege of course
only if i can recall my sentries in the phoenix in the same way...
didn't like that sig anyways... |
Trevarre Schuldig
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:21:00 -
[206]
motherships as they are now does around 1/2 sieged dread damage 2000-2500 dps, with fighter bombers your looking at sieged dread damage or 4000-5000 dps any less and it's not better than normal fighters. bring 8-10 of these your gonna have something like a 40k-50k tank and doing 40-50k dps out of triage mode, huge plus btw meaning they can warpout as long as they're not constantly bubbled.
i'm thinking a cap gang of 10 super carriers 3-4 titans 20 carriers and the rest in dreads totally owning any traditional cap fleet 80% dreads 20% carriers of equal numbers. i'm also seeing without DD, support will play a bigger role in cap slug fests.
also titans need enough tank to survive at least 30 seiged dreads pounding on it for 5 minutes. so around 36 million ehp roughly 5-6x of the current amount. any less and you'll have 1 dead titan every time it shoots it's new death ray. or maybe 2.5-3x the current ehp, so with the support of 10 carriers 1 titan can last 5 minutes of 30 seiged dreads shooting at it.
so now the moros is on par with all other dreads out of siege. in siege nothing has changed. it's not like moros is the worst dread in siege. that's reserved for phoenix.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:22:00 -
[207]
DC, you're insane if you think that any worthwhile object in the game will ever be limited to a handful. Any game that's afflicted by Serious Business Syndrome has to be designed with one central rule in mind - hardcore players will do anything it takes to win. Spend 23 hours a day onlining POSes? Sure, I can sleep over downtime. Spend 4000 man-hours mining minerals for a Titan? Why not? If it helps someone win at Eve, they'll do it, and be damned to their social life, sleep habits, or overall sanity. Not everyone will, but you have to balance the game for those who do. Any proposal that makes Titans worthwhile is going to guarantee that they're common after enough time, no matter what they cost, what skills they require, how much effort they take, or what sort of obscene restrictions you place on them. For that matter, even if they aren't worthwhile, they'll still be common - look at Moms. Expecting rarity is fundamentally stupid design.
</rantmode>
Overall, supercapital design has to hit two goals. A supercap has to have a reason to be on the battlefield, and it has to be able to survive there well enough to be usable. The doom cannon does the first well enough, though I'll have to see stats on bomber drones, but the second you're still not selling me on. These are fleet ships, and they have to be designed for use in fleet. If I can't put a Titan into the middle of my 200-man blob and crash it into the other guy's 200-man blob with the expectation that it being there will gain me more than it loses me, the titan is a failure as a fleet ship. Making it survivable by active tank is bad, because then it just becomes invincible solo against smaller groups, while giving it pure HP just means placing an upper limit on how big of a fight it can go into(and that upper limit I can guarantee will be too low - a 100-man dread fleet can easily pump out a quarter million DPS, meaning that if you want it to last 5 minutes on an average battlefield, you'll need to give it 75 million EHP).
I think the solution to survivability is either to give supercaps a massive resistance bonus or a massive bonus to the effectiveness of inbound remote reps, probably on the order of making the tank 2x-4x as good. A naked Titan will still drop, but one in combat with a proper support fleet will have a decent chance of surviving massed dreadnought fire.
The other concern is ensuring that doomsdays don't destroy your entire supercap combat model. I don't have numbers on your changes, but if you do it the simple way, then the first thing that happens when a pair of titan gangs run into each other will be two dead titans, one on each side. Bang, bang, 150 bil up in smoke. That's not fleet combat, that's the masochist's tango. The simplest solution to this would be to declare doom cannons to be "electronic warfare" effects, of the kind that supercaps are naturally immune to, though other solutions may also exist(explicitly prevent multiples on a single target within 5 mins?). However, make sure that you do something in this vein, or else you destroy any possibility of them being usable in fleet combat, because all you'll do is create titan MAD.
All that said, I'm cautiously optimistic about most of these changes. ****ed about the Moros nerf, at least partially because I'm training for one, but this seems like it will remove the absurdity that is the modern Titan from the game once and for all, and because if we're all very good children, Santa might even bring us a usable Mothership for Christmas. Will be looking forward to eating a doom cannon or two on Sisi.
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Ker HarSol
Minmatar Zip - I
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:24:00 -
[208]
What will be done against titan blobbing?
Already the larger alliances can field 10 titans without much of a problem.
In the not to distant future they can field 20,30,50.
What are you going to do then? Another change?
I am afraid, as good as all the changes might sound and as much work was there invested already, they just seem to be a quick hack and patch to fix a momentarily situation.
Only the most biggest alliances can afford to field that many titans. Smaller alliances won't have much of a chance (even less than now) to kill a titan. And the imbalance only becomes bigger.
I like DigitalCommunists ideas about something radical news. Titans/Moms as something in between a ship and a station.
The doomsday is not really that bad! The only problem is the cyno jammer and a DD in a cyno jammed system. But those jammers will be gone for most of the systems after Dominion anyway.
I am sorry to say, but these new changes lack vision. |
Varrakk
Phantom Squad Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:34:00 -
[209]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
The current RoF on the super weapons is five minutes. This is because we plan to let everyone do a lot of testing on SiSi over the next several weeks. We will continue to balance based upon the results of public testing and feedback. Firing the weapon has the current effects:
- Immobility for 30 seconds.
- Jump drive non-operational for five minutes.
A Titan immobile for 30 seconds infront a dread fleet wont survive. It will be bubbled and gunned down as soon as the dreads lock it. Trading a 60b ship for a common 1.5b Dread will make Titans the new POS hugger.
The only use Titans will see with its new super weapon, will be station or cyno gen ganking. Which is the role moms currently have.
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Darkdood
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:36:00 -
[210]
The one thing that concerns me about the Titan being made a beam weapon is how it can be used on other targets. I mean a POS only has 30-60 mil shields. If you can dump 3-4 mil in one hit you can seriously hammer a POS just by having what 8+ titans DD it and then warp away. Then its reinforced in like 30 secs flat. No fight no defense no warning. Its over before the eve mail even hits your mailbox.
Obviously not everyone has 8+ Titans, but still.
With POS's not being part of sov maybe it won't matter but my assumption is other hard targets will replace them in the new mechanic. Sort of hard to keep a 20 mil health sov flag planted if a pack of titans can warp in blast it from 150 km out and warp away before anyone even really knows its happening.
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Gramtar
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:39:00 -
[211]
Interesting concepts for supercapitals. What remains to be seen is what the role of dreads and carriers are vis a vis the new sov claiming device/thingy/whatever we shoot. After all, capital killers are not much use if there are no capitals around to kill. Some things to remember:
1) We use dreads today to siege towers and shoot other capitals 2) Most capital fights occur when a POS is exiting reinforced mode
Therefore, whatever the new thing is we'll be shooting at gates to claim sov:
1) Needs a reinforced mode to give defenders an opportunity to defend it at a later date, and both sides the time needed to prepare their players to be somewhere at a specific time. If you can outright kill the sov-claiming thing, why would anyone ever engage outside of their own prime time? Because they want "good fights"?
2) Since everything else in a system - cyno jammers and beacons, jump bridges, outpost/station access, and CSAA operation - is all dependent on sovereignty, all those other things will be a secondary target to an attacker. Serious attackers will go directly after the sov claiming device/tower/whatever it is. If this doesn't have a lot of HP - by a lot I mean something like 3-5x Large tower shield HP - then people will just shoot them with subcaps.
Now, you could radically change the role of the dread (by removing tracking penalties and improving scan res) to make it a subcap killer, in the same way the Titan is becoming a cap killer. However, that seems to make the game more "dumb" to me. It would simply become a matter of whoever brought the biggest guns to the fight winning - not very fun or challenging.
So, to help me appreciate these new capital ship killers, I need to understand under what circumstances there's going to be capital ships to kill. What is the role of the dread? Today while sieged, it does 10x the dps of a T2 gank BS against a large tower. We use them because we typically have to shoot several such towers in one go. Sometimes a lot more than several. If a system only had 1 or 2 large POS, we would probably just use BS and not put a 1.8 billion isk ship at risk.
What is the role of the dread in Dominion? I ask this because, like the last time POS and sov was revamped, one of the goals I'm hearing about is to "make small gangs relevant". As we know, unless CCP was referring to afk station services shooting for 12 hours, that goal was never realized. For me, when I hear that same goal echoed, I think - if a small gang can take or disrupt sovereignty, what role does the Dread still have?
When it comes down to it, the two ideas are completely at odds. Dreads - expensive, immobile, set pieces doing large amounts of damage to solo stationary targets - and small gangs running around trying to accomplish...something. I don't see how the two can live together.
My hope is EVE doesn't become solely a timezone war - your enemy shoots your crap in his primetime and you shoot his in your primetime and everything grinds along until one side takes a day off and there's a winner until it starts all over again.
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Vir Hellnamin
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.09.16 06:43:00 -
[212]
Edited by: Vir Hellnamin on 16/09/2009 06:43:18 So instead of fixing docking-games Moros by changing the docking-timers, go for brute force again.
Leaves just every carrier to do same thing... WTF. (reprocess Moros, build Thana, go back camping)
Wouldn't docking-timer of "per station larger than current one" worked? Would have made sure that Moros will not make thru the timer with it's non-sieged tank+buffer, but wouldn't have ****ed up in system hauling...
Didn't fix the docking games, only made the Rev even more "must". (Nice job, awesome work men.) -- "Entering MH means instant death. It's worse than 0.0. Even the asteroids shoot back." - Alex Harumichi [GRD]
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AbudSeab
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:02:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Gramtar
if a small gang can take or disrupt sovereignty, what role does the Dread still have?
Imho, I think the revamp for small gangs has nothing to do with sov itself or its structures. But with the need for more people working to make money (cause of moonmining nerf) will be a large abundance of target for small gangs, and with a lot of small gangs entering space all day long a defense force need to be active too. This defense force will not be made up of dread or cap, but prob also small/medium gangs patrolling area.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:15:00 -
[214]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 16/09/2009 07:17:41
Originally by: Korinn Make moros drone bonus apply only in siege, but make siege double drone control range and sentry optimal range.
Bouncers to 120km? Yes please.
I like this. Make it so.
The points made previously be various people are valid: post-nerf, the Moros is inferior to the Revelation in every way. It needs some buff to compensate, and the above idea sounds good to me.
(the Revelation needing a small nerf is another possible issue)
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:17:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Sybilla Prior Won't fighter-bombers make stealth bombers kind of useless?
Not really. I'd like to see a supercarrioer cov ops cloak and sneak up on someone :P --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:18:00 -
[216]
Now we got 2 months of complete stop in mothership sales. You'r eagerness to tell have shafted all ms producers.
Why remove features from the mothership instead of adding them? I have been using up to 6 gang links on my nyx when I was in fleet booster role. I think that was a decent role for a supercap and I really do not understand why it should be removed.
I was hoping this patch would be the big day for motherships, but I have never been hit so hard by the nerf bat. My ship lost its build value, the role I have been giving it and it's name. . you'll never jump alone
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Lord Timelord
Point of No Return
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:18:00 -
[217]
So... You've decided to make a ton of changes eh CCP? Might I add some tweaks to your idea's:
Moros: If you remove the drone damage bouns while the ship is not in siege mode, could you please adjust the range of the blasters so they can hit a POS easily when in siege?
It seems that the real reason most Moros pilots use the Railguns is because the Blasters don't have enough effective range against Large Towers.
Could you also check on the damage output to make sure it's in line with the other dreads? I believe this is related to the above tbh. Since the blasters dont' have the range, you are forced to used the lower damage mod railguns. Fix the blasters range so they can be used instead of the railguns!
ALL Caps and Supercaps: Could you also allow ALL CAPS AND SUPERRCAPS the ability to scoop drones/etc from a further distance (best guess here would be somewhere between 5km-10km range)? It's a real PITA when you get bumped a bit and can't scoop them up.
While you're at it... Fighters STILL scoop very slow! They always have scooped slow... stuttering the client with each Fighter Scoop. It doesn't lag when launching them, but it ALWAYS hangs for a second when scooping. FIX IT!
Nyx: If you remove the ability for a SuperCarrier (Mothership) to use a Triage Module, I'd reccommend enabling them to repair at the same rate of an active triage module (and be possible to fit it to be cap stable with a decent tank).
So a Nyx with two capital reppers would repair at the same rate as a Triaged Thanatos with dual reppers, only it doesn't have to be bothered any more with the Triage Module and carrying stront!
That would go a LONG way to making the ships more survivable, and they would still be able to use Drones/Fighters/Fighter Bombers as well, so they would have tougher defenses. That would be a huge relief to the players that managed to obtain such an incredibely expensive ship hull.
Allow Motherships the ability to repair their drones while inside their bays. A long time ago drones were completely healed (Structure, Armor, and Shields) when scooped. This was changed to Structure and Armor were not repaired, and Shields Repaired over time. Change it so Structure, Armor, AND Shields are repaired over time.
All SuperCaps:
How about giving Motherships (and possibily Carriers as well) the ability to repair all three HP Bars to drones/fighters over time? It would be logical that a SuperCarrier (Mothership) would have greater crew resources/equipment for fixing up Drones/Fighters when docked.
A LOT of us have asked for it since they came out. Give Motherships (SuperCarriers) and Titans the ability to DOCK! When Outposts were first going to be introduced into the game, a lot of people made the assumption that they would be able to dock at them (due to them being player built).
Would it be possible to code the game to allow them to either Dock at an Outpost, or an Outpost add-on? Or Perhaps a totally new "Player Augmented Drydock" (forever known and patented here as a "PADÖ"?
__________
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Zeveron
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:21:00 -
[218]
I dont have any problems with the removal of the DD, but there are atleast 2 problem with the leviathan which make that ship less usefull than the other titan class ships.
1. The shield bonus isnt instant 2. Crystal set is not working with capital ships
Since all the other titan bonuses are instant, are we gona see a change here? Since slave set is working on armor tanked ships are we gona see a change with crystal sets?
Both changes are vital after the changes you made on how the leviathan works ________________________________________________
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Sebin
Atomic Heroes
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:25:00 -
[219]
Give the Moros' drones all the bonuses (including their own reppers) since they are in siege mode themselves, thanks.
Also, reduce all other dreads unsieged dps, thanks again. (yes I know its petty).
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:26:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Lord Timelord So... You've decided to make a ton of changes eh CCP? Might I add some tweaks to your idea's:
Moros: If you remove the drone damage bouns while the ship is not in siege mode, could you please adjust the range of the blasters so they can hit a POS easily when in siege?
It seems that the real reason most Moros pilots use the Railguns is because the Blasters don't have enough effective range against Large Towers.
Agreed. I don't fly the Moros myself, but pilots who do all tell me that blasters are often useless on it... which is a major drawback, removing the close-gank role in practice. Fix capital blasters, and the Moros pilots should be happy again. Maybe.
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Xthril Ranger
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:31:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Lord Timelord So... You've decided to make a ton of changes eh CCP? Might I add some tweaks to your idea's:
Moros: If you remove the drone damage bouns while the ship is not in siege mode, could you please adjust the range of the blasters so they can hit a POS easily when in siege?
It seems that the real reason most Moros pilots use the Railguns is because the Blasters don't have enough effective range against Large Towers.
Agreed. I don't fly the Moros myself, but pilots who do all tell me that blasters are often useless on it... which is a major drawback, removing the close-gank role in practice. Fix capital blasters, and the Moros pilots should be happy again. Maybe.
noone is using short range capital weapons except phoenixes that do not have long range weapons. . you'll never jump alone
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Lusulpher
Blackwater Syndicate Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:38:00 -
[222]
Just saw the Capital changes for Dominion...wow...bad.
1)Carriers need FBombers too. For obvious reasons. All other pre-Dom rules apply. :Lol: Fbombs.
2)The Hel bonus change is awful. Pretty sure that's what made them unique. More HP is needed on Moms. 2-5x dread, base.
3) Titan base HP better be 15x dread HP and up. And it should have Triage access with lingering penalties to offensive abilities while in that mode. If they can't fight back, option to make them near-immortal, so that the owners have more time for a plan and support formation.
Less will be killed, but less will be stockpiled. And the death of them will actually mean something. Forces Titan pilot to crosstrain also.
4)DDs should be Tactical environment effects like other players suggested. Dps is not the answer when 2 large fleets decide to meet. If you have the option to ECM a sniperfleet like the MoM, with either ECM or DD, this WILL FORCE BLOBS APART(tactically) and the Titan pilot will have to target instead of driveby. Titans will not always fit dps DD, so it can also bluff out the first engagement...Fear upon sight of a Titan, each time. Then toss in tac-enviro weaponry for the single/multiple-locked targetting DD types, and you have true warfare. Titan the new Falcon?
Plus I will miss our trailers with the Ominae going off. Wtf is wrong with you?
5) Gang mods on Titans get an insane boost, but completely gimp the Titans fitting of Offensive weapons. And anchoring a Titan like a POS/Flag when your first claim gets vaporised is still an option Sov gamers want. Nasty penalties apply. Insane bonus to hardpoint/launcher fittings already proposed in other thread.
6) You are making an ORE Supercapital? That's the only thing that will replace the MoMs 5000-man limit clonebays and lame no-parking for your 20bil ship enjoyment of EVE. It better be able to Jump support ships in and have a MASSIVE SHIP Hangar(30 cruisers+). I'm talking godly. The MoMs never delivered and you know it.
I'm thinking Orca-> Rorq-> SuperRorq(Narwhal?).
And the manhours to draw up 4 racial Superc...Motherships, terrible move.
7) Jeez, cynos are still Tactical...and Dreads still carry anti-support drones...don't expect blobs/hotdrops to be reduced.
Moros change EPICWIN. Still gonna train it up. Those HICs/tacklers stand no chance anyway. Or maybe try for Fbomb launcher. 7 |
Soleil Fournier
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:38:00 -
[223]
The docking situation with supercaps does need to be addressed.
Other than the "They're too huge to dock" theory, what are the reasonings behind making a supercap pilot stuck in their ship? I'd like to note that you can store moms/titans in pos bays that are significantly smaller in size than stations (But given the problems with POS and the ease at which a stored supercap can be stolen by a spy, or the pos blowd up, etc, this isn't an option).
Considering that supercaps can only be used at certain times (see: big fleets) and thus your alliance will most likely only be at war to be used, what about the times that your alliance isn't at war? This could be for long periods, especially if your alliance has all the space it wants and no one wants to attack them. The pilot is then worthless sitting in a POS shield. This is unfun.
I really think that supercaps need the ability to dock. There's no balance issues from allowing supercaps to dock. The only benefit it provides is allowing that toon to do other things in the game during times that they won't be able to use their ship otherwise. I think it's reasonable.
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Edmund Khan
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:40:00 -
[224]
Edited by: Edmund Khan on 16/09/2009 07:44:01 I like the MS changes.
But please, make supercapitals imune to normal interdictor bubbles. There is no way you can control or fight those from a supercapital - you're death meat.
We have HIC with focused scripts now, to hold down supercaps. And mobile anchored bubbles. Thats enough and supercaps can fight those and maybe have a chance of getting away. And a little effort should be required to hold down supercaps, not only a 20 milion frigate bubble spam...
Or at least give us some capital sized smartbombs with 12km range a bit more damage to fight dictor bubbles.
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Vaedian GER
Excidium.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:47:00 -
[225]
The Moros and especially the Titan changes are total win, but the Mothership nerf is pointless. You are really reducing them to highly overpriced carriers now, the bombers won't help.
Also, you boost the Triage mode by making it less risky but TAKE it away from the MS?
Why no Bombers on Carriers? Nobody will pay 15b ISK just to launch those things while 2-3 Carriers for 3b can do the same Damage.
Whats your problem with the Clone Vat Bay? It's one of the reasons for smaller corps/alliances to get MS at all!
So either reduce the Supercarriers to a super price, arround 5-6 billion ISK, or boost them hard to make them worth their price! .
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The Kan
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:50:00 -
[226]
CCP im f***ing ****ed with you.
I been flying this coffin for more than 2 years now. 2 freaking years.
you telling me now that, triage is gone? clone vat is gone? the gang warfare is gone?
who is going to reimburse my wasted skill time on those? and why on hell do i want to keep 2 more years log'ed off in a damn ship ? to jump into a dread blob? you nuts?
wasted char, wasted money wasted time wasted isk
it's how i feel about this changes, and your misely ehp buf is not close to enough to compensate not even a scratch.
damn it
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jeffb
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.09.16 07:51:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Lusulpher Sov gamers
You're an idiot.
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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:02:00 -
[228]
Originally by: CCP Abathur ... Dreadnaughts... ... Dreadnaughts... ... Dreadnaughts...
Will CCP be buffing their spell checkers so the get ship names correct in future blogs?
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Huan CK
Gallente GK inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:04:00 -
[229]
Few things:
a) since the motherships are supercarriers, and get all their mothership roles removed, you need to overthink the whole ship! imo this was the wrong way to go! you had better released a bomber carrier and worked on making the motherships role-defined non-carriers and pure support ships, make clone vat bays etc stay on those.. but noo, reinventing the wheel again. Now the supercarrier is just more like a dread, just that its a carrier and uses superdrones instead of turrets. woohoo, you just didnt change a damned thing :D oh, and now that they're not motherships, but have a lousy "kill other caps" role, and since they're non-exclusive, have no "station" purpose anymore, i say you need to make them dockable! they're nothing else than a dread with big bad drones. and dreads can dock, too!!! why would you buy a supercarrier and park it at a pos, log it off, etc, if you can have the same with a dread, dock, change ships, not waste a character/skilltime/isk, etc etc etc etc...
b) moros change?! WTF!? the drone bonus was never big enough to put harm to any capital fleet, or to towers, or what else. the only good use against towers is a tiny extra damage by sentry drones, but, IN SIEGE MODE!?!? guys! overthink what a moros will most likely field (sentries) and how he's supposed to work proper with them in siege mode! this is not gonna go into the right direction! Either make the drone damage more freaking ooomph, and make sentries fly slowly to stay by their ship, and be able to scoop them if you get bumped, or leave the ship as is! this is definately not the proper way! if you want to do it like that, i suggest you drop the guns on the moros, and invent something like a fighter-class sentry drone! this change is pure stupid.
rest of the stuff: very nice. titans having an insta-pop weapon instead of an aoe-you'reallwrecksnow button is far better than before, but not fixing the problem the titans and doomsdays where having. the problem was not the doomsdays being overpowered in any way, no, the problem was 2, 3, 4 titans and more on the field being able to doomsday. The right way to solve this would have been: leave doomsdays unchanged, but change the stacking of doomsdays. for example, *disallow a doomsday on the same grid after 1 doomsday has been fired for the next.. umm.. 10 minutes? or *make all titans on the field pop due to doomsday device overheat malefunctioning due to unstable cores if 2 doomsdays where fired within 60 seconds
you know, something to stop them from being stacked onto each other and obliterating whole fleets. a single doomsday will NOT kill a well-tanked battlefleet. not at all. you can fit most t2 cruisers, bc, bs etc to withstand at least one doomsday. again, you're reinventing the wheel instead of making the "square wheel round" :D
My videos: Watch on youtube. |
Bassarid
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:06:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Gramtar [...] What is the role of the dread in Dominion? I ask this because, like the last time POS and sov was revamped, one of the goals I'm hearing about is to "make small gangs relevant". As we know, unless CCP was referring to afk station services shooting for 12 hours, that goal was never realized. For me, when I hear that same goal echoed, I think - if a small gang can take or disrupt sovereignty, what role does the Dread still have? [...]
CCP "Not Seleene Anymore" Already stated that in his devblog, and i quote:
Originally by: CCP Abathur
The heavy hitters of New Eden will continue in their role as the primary anti-structure and anti-capital ship in EVE.[...]If anything, Dreads will be used more than ever against not only each other, but new challenges which will require the mentality to "Siege green"!
So what he wanted to let us know with this is, that there is gonna be something else besides posses that needs shooting, that is actually harder to kill, cause oyu need to siege green on it (multiple cycles9 while currently most posses get 1-cycled.
How that fits into his vision of not shooting a subsidiary for posses, he should most definitely elaborate on, other then that he answered it already.
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CCP Abathur
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:12:00 -
[231]
Good morning, thread. I'd like to start off by saying a few things that you all should consider in your feedback.
Dominion is not being released tomorrow or next week; it's still 2-3 months from deployment. We have no intention of springing changes on the player base at the last minute. One of the reasons we are putting out so much information now is that we want to get this stuff onto the test server and allow you all to play with it and provide feedback.
We appreciate the scope of the changes we are implementing and are not just planning to just ignore your concerns. At this stage of development, there are still quite a few things we can alter in terms of balance. We want to include you in the process and the Dev team will be following these threads, and subsequent ones on the Test Server forum, very closely.
Please bear this in mind in your replies.
Originally by: Misanth I assume that you want to separate a Fighter/Fighter Bomber bay from the regular drone bay? So that means we'll still have a dronebay? It's quite a crucial question.
Yes. The issue is simply the discrepancy in size between fighters and normal drones. Remove a single fighter (5,000 m3) and you have space for hundreds of drones. Remove a second fighter and it turns into thousands of drones. This causes a lot of problems. The new bays will alleviate this. In terms of size, they won't be 10,000 m3 nor will they be 500 m3. We will find a sensible balance and apply that.
Originally by: Moros Champions I'm going to train Amarr now!
We're well aware of the differences. The issue is that the Moros was doing an average of three times the out of siege damage over the other dreads. A max skilled Moros does over 1100 DPS with 5x Ogre II's and over 900 DPS with 5x Bouncer II's. This is Carrier level damage from regular drones. A Dread's primary damage should come from its guns and the drone bonus should be just that, a bonus, not a requirement to achieve some sort of parity with other dreads.
As I said at the start, we have time and are paying attention. We'll be looking at this in the coming weeks and will work to make sure the Moros isn't relegated to the bottom of the class.
Originally by: Battle Tested As it stands right now capital armor reps and capital shield boosters hardly have any affect on a supercap....Shouldnt "supercarriers" and titans at least get 100% repair bonus to these modules? fitting cap rep mods on supercaps is like fitting small reppers on a battleship (basically useless)
We've had a lot of back and forth on this one and it's not completely out the window. However, the question is, aside from just boosting the repair rate or creating new ones, just how much DPS should a supercap be able to solo tank? This is a very subjective and situational argument because one thing we do not want to see is Supercarriers and Titans able to do just dominate a battlefield on their own. Ships such as these should require teamwork and the support of other classes to be utilized to their full potential.
Originally by: Supercarrier Name Haters I hate this but have no other suggestions.
The terminology is quite fitting in that the class is an advanced form of... Carriers. The name of Mothership has always been misleading, evoking images of traveling civilizations or some grand exploration vessel, which these ships are not. Even their aesthetic shape suggests ships of war and conflict. If you ever see 'Motherships' again in EVE, they will actually look and function like they should be wearing the name.
Originally by: Various People These changes are unoriginal.
As stated in my previous blog, one of our mandates has been that we plan for iteration. We can only do so much at once and these changes represent a beginning, not an end.
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Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:14:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Zeveron Edited by: Zeveron on 16/09/2009 07:33:36 I dont have any problems with the removal of the DD, but there are atleast 2 problems with the leviathan which make that ship less usefull than the other titan class ships.
1. The shield bonus isnt instant
Agree.
Quote:
2. Crystal set is not working with capital ships
Since all the other titan bonuses are instant, are we gona see a change here? Since slave set is working on armor tanked ships are we gona see a change with crystal sets?
As far as active tanking goes, the Leviathan is in a league all of it's own. You can easily tank 50, 60% better than an Erebus or Avatar, and without needing top officer mods, either. Adding a crystal set bonus would make it grossly overpowered.
(not that it matter much when 60 dreads fire at you, but still...)
The slave set has a real drawback. Titans are already slow enough to reach the safety of a POS shield. The crystal set drawback is totally insignifiant when applied to supercaps.
Quote:
EDIT: What about locking speed? If I need 5 mins to fire and 2 mins to lock even a capital, I dont think its gona work. Or should I fit sensor boosters to my midslots where I usualy fit my tank, which is more needed than b4?
Both changes are vital after the changes you made on how the leviathan works
Since the new titan superweapon will probably have a fairly long cycle time, and is completly immune to EW, locking time only really matter for the first shot. After that you should have a few enemy caps already locked, and no need to focus your fire with the one of your gangmates, so no need to wait for primary to know who to lock.
What's the average time for a titan without sensor boosters to lock a carrier ou dread? If it's, say, 30 seconds or less, I consider it fine. ------------------------------------------
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:18:00 -
[233]
Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 16/09/2009 08:21:19
Originally by: CCP Abathur
We're well aware of the differences. The issue is that the Moros was doing an average of three times the out of siege damage over the other dreads. A max skilled Moros does over 1100 DPS with 5x Ogre II's and over 900 DPS with 5x Bouncer II's. This is Carrier level damage from regular drones. A Dread's primary damage should come from its guns and the drone bonus should be just that, a bonus, not a requirement to achieve some sort of parity with other dreads.
Ah, so you ARE in fact considering more to 'balance' the Moros than just nerfing the drones. Gee, it would have been nice to hear that 8 pages ago, or at least have that in the first reply instead of "nerf bat "
What else are you looking at doing, though, and why did you restrict your development of the issue you see to a flippant "Dreads aren't being touched - except the Moros" remark in the actual blog? ----
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Vir Hellnamin
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:28:00 -
[234]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
We're well aware of the differences. The issue is that the Moros was doing an average of three times the out of siege damage over the other dreads. A max skilled Moros does over 1100 DPS with 5x Ogre II's and over 900 DPS with 5x Bouncer II's. This is Carrier level damage from regular drones. A Dread's primary damage should come from its guns and the drone bonus should be just that, a bonus, not a requirement to achieve some sort of parity with other dreads.
Yes, primary damage from guns, make all dreads all equal in damage output, it's balancing - also you'll lose flavour, but hey, cross-training (which is already possible in EVE) does same (in a way). ;-P
Since you're talking about non-sieged mode, it's nothing to do with POS shoots, I take?
So, why you are just brute forcing the station-camping Moros (which will be replaced equally stupid thing of station-camping Carrier), instead of fixing the station camping thru timers?
(Now, please, do spoil us with the fighter-bombers 'torp' range, since I want to know will smart-bombs in Naglfar's non-bonused high-slots make any sense.)
-- "Entering MH means instant death. It's worse than 0.0. Even the asteroids shoot back." - Alex Harumichi [GRD]
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Zeekar
Amarr Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:32:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Shadowsword
The slave set has a real drawback. Titans are already slow enough to reach the safety of a POS shield. The crystal set drawback is totally insignifiant when applied to supercaps.
What drawback exactly?
Slave set gives 50% more armor hp without changing any other attribute of the ship. Slave sets dont share the speed penalty of trimarks. The only drawback is that you cant fit a nomad set if you have a slave set in your head.
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Zeveron
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:42:00 -
[236]
@Shadowsword
Quote: As far as active tanking goes, the Leviathan is in a league all of it's own. You can easily tank 50, 60% better than an Erebus or Avatar, and without needing top officer mods, either. Adding a crystal set bonus would make it grossly overpowered.
(not that it matter much when 60 dreads fire at you, but still...)
The slave set has a real drawback. Titans are already slow enough to reach the safety of a POS shield. The crystal set drawback is totally insignifiant when applied to supercaps.
The question here is not about how good or bad (which is also questionable) a leviathan or a phoenix or a chimera can tank. But why the slave set works and crystal set is not working on caps. Maybe they should implement a new caldari capital set or somthing. The problem with this set is that to many ppl using it doing missions in empire, so it cannot be changed to a shield bonus like slave set.
They should balance it so it works or remove the slave set from capitals also.
Quote: Since the new titan superweapon will probably have a fairly long cycle time, and is completly immune to EW, locking time only really matter for the first shot. After that you should have a few enemy caps already locked, and no need to focus your fire with the one of your gangmates, so no need to wait for primary to know who to lock.
What's the average time for a titan without sensor boosters to lock a carrier ou dread? If it's, say, 30 seconds or less, I consider it fine
Last time I checked, I needed about a minute to lock a pos :-) ________________________________________________
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:43:00 -
[237]
Good blog. I'm particularly excited about bombers.
Which brings me to my (perhaps self-serving) point: could there be possibilities in upgrading the fighter bays of regular carriers to accommodate bombers? I imagine they'd work a lot like damage modifiers on other vessels. What you trade in tank or utility you gain in gank.
I ask this question when we of course have no numbers for a bomber's payload yet.
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Latest video: War Has Come (720p) |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:49:00 -
[238]
I think the Titan change is a good one. The support fleets should be thanking CCP, no more accidentally nuking your own fleet. It should also reduce lag.
Be interesting to know what the other doomsday ideas are post Dominion.
Mothership name change. Well honestly why were they called motherships to begin with. They are tier 3 tech 1 carriers. We don't call the Rupture a Heavy Cruiser, Celestis a Support Cruiser or the Caracal a Strike Cruiser, so I never really understood the need for a separate name for the same class of ships. Supercarrier is probably a more proper name given their current and expected future operations.
Mothership might be more properly saved for a tech 2 carrier class. (Say a Battlestar or Base Star type design which combines elements of both a Dread and Carrier....and there was a Project Battlestar at CCP 2-3 years ago....)
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. -Mitnal |
Zastrow J
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:49:00 -
[239]
im glad the mothership moniker is going away because "mom" is the dumbest nickname for a ship ever. Also anyone who ever fit a triage mod on their mothership is stupid and if you really want to spend 10 minutes frozen in space i'll gladly drop dreads on your self-tackled expensive supercap. That change should be a no-brainer
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Mara Intala
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:51:00 -
[240]
*Supercarriers are going to get new teeth in the form of the deadly new Fighter Bombers they can launch. Fighter Bombers have exactly one purpose: to destroy capital ships and look very cool while doing so*
Ok this looks really cool. A+ on the sweet look of the Gallente bomber. But my issue here is limiting them to S'carriers alone.
IĘm not suggesting let normal carriers be able to put out a max flight of 15 of them like a maxed skilled carrier pilot can do with fighters (only if they fill there highs with DCUs) but from what I have read they will require being on the front line to use.
With the current cost of MOMs(14b+) I just cant see anyone using them on the front line, not when they can just pos hug and sent 20+ fighters out among there fleet.
Here is what IĘm thinking. Since carriers are smaller they donĘt have the Best hangers and control units. So the new Bombers would take 3x the space and bandwidth of normal fighters to field. So a thanny would only be able to use 5 of them (375 BW) (75000 m3 in current drone bay) so it would make the pilot THINK about what he wanted to do. If the pilot took a full flight of bombers (5), He wouldnĘt be able to carry many fighters or other drones so it wouldnĘt be OP compared to SĘcarriers which would have normal requirements for bombers (25 BW/5000 m3) cause in my mind. A ship like the Nyx has the most advanced, up to date equipment and software there is.
I just donĘt want to see such an awesome new drone model wither away in dust in a mom drone bay sitting at a pos cause they are to expensive to risk on the front line.
Of course the bombers will still require a mom to be used to there fullest. But to be able to use them in carriers will not only make the carrier pilots happy. But the ppl who will be building them happy to. (More need to replace them as they will get used, and lost more)
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Lijhal
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:53:00 -
[241]
i wish we had such collision graphics on ships as well like in the first picture
/dream
btw, nice blog!
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Soleil Fournier
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:54:00 -
[242]
Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 16/09/2009 08:58:12
So the question is how much DPS should a supercarrier tank?
Is there any question that supercaps should tank more than dreads? Given the cost, the alliance-wide effort they take, the downfalls of not being able to dock, etc?
Dreads tank 12,000-20,000 sustained dps, and pop every few minutes in a fleet fight. My nyx with faction/officer gear tanks 5,000 dps. The average dread fleet I was around numbered 40 dreads. Add in a hundred sub cap ships pumping out a lot of damage. The current tanking from moms are completely inadequate. Adding in even a million armor points doesn't do anything but buy us an extra 2 minutes (if that) if we can't do anything to sustain any type of dps. Buffer tanks won't make us survivable on the battlefield. We must see an increase in our repping abilities.
And a question that hasn't been asked much....what are the weapon ranges/orbit range for the bombers?
Thanks for keeping up with this thread :)
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 08:58:00 -
[243]
le sigh
I write half a post on capitals go to lectures (11 hours before I get back) finish last couple paragraphs and post, only to find out someone at ccp has managed ninja in a devblog on the exact same subject while I was away.
Oh well I guess I'll take this as a sign I'm thinking about the right things, now lets start with what I see in this blog.
Super-moms seem to be taking the role of dreads and from some rough guesses I'm thinking they'll do slightly less dps than a single dread. Effecitively they'll be more flexible more maneuvarable dreads... sorta sounds like minmatar except making them cost a hell of a lot more.
Titans are still gonna cause problems, any large corp will just use titans to crush their enemy who will stand jack all chance to fight back. Imagine having carriers camping your stations/poses etc and the moment you bring any bs fleet or capital fleet a 20 man titan fleet jumps in and wastes you before you get a chance and you don't have near enough dps to even dent them while they vaporise you easily. Better than current system but still not quite there. you mentioned more potential DDD's in the future.... wanna hear more on that.
Moros: while I agree that this nerf was kinda hard it stopped station camping with the moros which is getting quite rediculous. As for those who say gallente is in dire need of a nerf; minmatar are next in line and I will duct tape shut every orofice of anyone who disagrees with this. feel free to stand behind us though.
Well now I'll go on to what my idea wher for capitals
or tl;dr... ok turns out my tl;dr needs a tl;dr
any subcapital ship can target the subsystems of capital ships (such as cap system, drone control, armour, shield, jump drive). only sub capitals can target these (also means only sub capitals can repair these).
now that they are nerfed and vulnerable to small gangs give them some nice boosts such as double hp increase cap by 50% boost damage etc. Try and make these boosts focused at bringing the ships back onto the battlefield so not only do subcaps wanna help the caps but caps wanna help the subcaps.
carrier example with 100% OP brokenness: let drone skills (drone interface etc.) effect drones that are on same grid (makes u bring your carrier to the field). Can only control 5 drones, rest must be assigned. Boost to DCU, fighter type sentries. ------------------------------
Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
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CCP Abathur
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Posted - 2009.09.16 09:09:00 -
[244]
First, a word on Titans from our Senior Producer.
Now...
Originally by: Darth Sith Now we are introducing a superweapon that can inflict capital killing damage on a target. What is to stop the same thing where someone comes in with 10+ titans, lock a tower , all fire their siege weapons and reinforce it in 1 shot. The tower would be reinforced and the titans gone before someone sees the first mail from the tower. Is this (highly probable I might add) scenerio being addressed in the balance testing?
Yes. We will be looking at everything from the damage the weapons actually do to how we might adjust that against certain targets.
Originally by: Gramtar What is the role of the dread in Dominion? I ask this because, like the last time POS and sov was revamped, one of the goals I'm hearing about is to "make small gangs relevant". As we know, unless CCP was referring to afk station services shooting for 12 hours, that goal was never realized. For me, when I hear that same goal echoed, I think - if a small gang can take or disrupt sovereignty, what role does the Dread still have?
A small gang will not be able to 'disrupt sovereignty', but they will be able to cause an AFK Empire more headaches than previously. Guerrilla warfare, raids, things like that. When it comes time to actually take the space, you will still need Dreads to take out heavily defended installations or destroy hardened infrastructure.
Originally by: Lord Timelord Stuff about Moros / blasters
We're actually looking at all of the 'short range' XL weaponry, not just the blasters on the Moros.
Originally by: Edmund Khan But please, make supercapitals imune to normal interdictor bubbles. There is no way you can control or fight those from a supercapital - you're death meat. We have HIC with focused scripts now, to hold down supercaps. And mobile anchored bubbles. Thats enough and supercaps can fight those and maybe have a chance of getting away. And a little effort should be required to hold down supercaps, not only a 20 milion frigate bubble spam.
Just because you spend XX billions / millions on a ship does not mean that it should automatically be able to defeat every other ship it comes across. Hictors are cruiser sized ships that your support fleet should be dealing with. Likewise, for all their 'power', Interdictors are little more than flying coffins in most fleet fights. If you are on grid without proper support, then you probably didn't want that Titan anyway.
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda could there be possibilities in upgrading the fighter bays of regular carriers to accommodate bombers? I imagine they'd work a lot like damage modifiers on other vessels. What you trade in tank or utility you gain in gank.
For current Carriers, there's no plans for that at this time. However, in a perfect world all capital ships would be modular like the Strategic Cruisers and you would be able to customize things much more. I'd much rather see us do something like this than try to add to current Carrier's plethora of available options.
Originally by: Typhado3 Sub System Targeting
This is something we've brought up at FanFest a couple times in the past and one of those ideas that keeps coming up. We want to eventually do this, not just for capital ships, but for everything. There's no solid plans for it at this time, but the concept isn't going away.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.09.16 09:09:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Mothership name change. Well honestly why were they called motherships to begin with. They are tier 3 tech 1 carriers. We don't call the Rupture a Heavy Cruiser, Celestis a Support Cruiser or the Caracal a Strike Cruiser, so I never really understood the need for a separate name for the same class of ships. Supercarrier is probably a more proper name given their current and expected future operations.
People call cruisers like the Osprey for mining cruisers. There's also mining frigates like the Bantam. There's the probing frigates like the Magnate.
I know that people call them like that. The samples you present might not be used. But that doesn't mean people don't sub-class classes.
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Wasp O'Ryan
Gallente The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.16 09:12:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Viper ****zIe How massive will the HP boost be for titans?
Is there anything else being added to make "supercarriers" more attractive? Jump range could really be looked at, will they retain the ECM burst module? Will fighter bombers be for MS only? Will they receive the same HP boost as titans? Will they get any added supercarrier only modules? Capital warp disruptors that work the same as a HIC focused point would be a great addition. Will they be worthwhile to trap an alt/main in now?
Do you think people will use titans in combat moreso now that they're able to only destroy one ship every five minutes, and in doing so be vulnerable for long enough that just about any competent (and even some that blatantly aren't) HIC/DIC pilot can get ontop of them without the titans having a way to defend themselves against smaller ships? Saying "bring a bigger fleet" really isn't an answer to this. Titans should have support, but I really don't expect many people to use them unless the ROF is substantially increased or you can fit multiple DD modules. The reward for the risk isn't there, especially with the immobility for 30 seconds being a death sentence.
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Virtuozzo
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.09.16 09:15:00 -
[247]
Edited by: Virtuozzo on 16/09/2009 09:15:32
Originally by: CCP Abathur Good morning, thread.
Good morning Time for lunch in a bit
These doomsday changes are puzzling. Area effect DD's have already balanced themselves out with other factors like cost, risk, numbers, methods, countermethods, etc. It is almost as if the last year of evolution on grid of pew pew was missed. Not everyone has avoided the challenges, there is an increasing number of organisations in game which actively uses brains and assets to deal with the challenges, and increasingly well.
The fundamental problem, was never the doomsday, but the combination of evading risk and the player driven excess.
To fix it, a few simple changes were needed:
- Take out the nano-no-risk factor.
Done, 30 second timer locked on grid after firing takes care of that, forcing people to once again engage using concerted fleet support.
- Take out the invulnerability of afk production.
Done, the sovereignty changes ending the invulnerability of POS will take out a lot of the AFK element, force people to be cautious once more, and quite possibly make clubbing baby seals a strategic option again.
- Make it counterproductive for players to pile up doomsdays without penalty or pain.
This last point is ... troublesome. I agree. But it would have been far more productive to use the storylines, rather then trying to reinvent a wheel which only needed to have two of its spikes taken out.
Effectively speaking, you're turning Titans into superdreadnaughts (spellingk! ), in an age where this simply cannot compete with scaling of skilled manpower, assets and isk. Taking into account human nature, you are opening the door to one of two options, depending on how much ISK people have:
- Mothership excess (seriously man, "supercarriers"? Call it "Assault Carriers or something, if one fine day we will get real super carriers worthy of the name Mothership.
- Titan excess. If the targeted weapon works on control towers and claim/disruption structures, my god Sweetness.
Or worse, a precedent of utter waste on a new and extreme scale, perfectly within CCP's rights & roles, but a potential long term lemon effect.
"Solving" the excess, would have been very simple. In contrast to these changes you do not need to revamp matters so that people will want to field more, on the contrary, you want to make people use big toys in a smart and unique manner instead of applying sheep mentality to it. Imagine the new superweapon works on starbases and the new claim / disruption structures. Guess what'll happen :P
I would have expected simple and subtle changes in the light of demonstrated player insanity, that built upon on the fundamentals of player driven excess, without trying to change manners in ways that turn it either into obsolete junk or something which makes people push for more of the same.
I like the idea of a targeted superweapon, especially in light of the warp timer and the sov (jammer) changes, but as I said, I fear it will be counterproductive in one of a few possible ways.
Dig up the old storylines, and see how having multiple titans around moons or planets or gates is a really bad thing. In contrast to any other shiptype titans have a precedent for hard caps / limitations.
Simply limiting the number of ships active at the same time on the same grid within a given timeframe would have solved excess in a stupidly simple manner ("she's broken her back Bill, she'll never jump again"). Combined with the changes to jammers and sovereignty, this would have shot the excess tendency in the face. Err, foot.
At that point, any complimentary changes would be added bonuses. Like scripting for the doomsday to work as either an area effect or a targeted weapon, or a Triage mobility option, the potential for providing more strategic use for a shiptype of this magnitude is staggering.
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The Kan
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2009.09.16 09:22:00 -
[248]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: Battle Tested As it stands right now capital armor reps and capital shield boosters hardly have any affect on a supercap....Shouldnt "supercarriers" and titans at least get 100% repair bonus to these modules? fitting cap rep mods on supercaps is like fitting small reppers on a battleship (basically useless)
We've had a lot of back and forth on this one and it's not completely out the window. However, the question is, aside from just boosting the repair rate or creating new ones, just how much DPS should a supercap be able to solo tank? This is a very subjective and situational argument because one thing we do not want to see is Supercarriers and Titans able to do just dominate a battlefield on their own. Ships such as these should require teamwork and the support of other classes to be utilized to their full potential.
Even today, if you sport a single rep mothership with triage, it will give you +100% rep bonus and -50% cycle time per cycle, it's not broke.
Yes it will be able to tank more, but it's not invencible. it cannot tank more than 4 dreads or a dozen BS's. Any small sized corp can field a dozen of BS's.
If you sport dual rep in triage, then you cripple your tank because your cap will dry up. you need to swap tank for cap recharging.
Adding a +100% rep bonus to motherships (yes motherships) it's not broken or overpowered.
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huxorator
Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2009.09.16 09:32:00 -
[249]
LEAVE!MY!MOROS!ALONE!
*sigh*
Gallente should be renamed to Sublente. You can do everything others can do, but worse. --- IGS Website | Killboard | Game-Time Cards |
Corinae
Gallente Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.16 09:38:00 -
[250]
Well, as erebus pilot this is my hopinion..
GOOD: 1) The idea of the big bad-ass lazor is cool, i can live without DDD, the bridge job of the titan is more important 2) One-volley on station hugging carrier is lovely, i like it 3) HP increase is always welcome, my erebus was always fitted for be a 15 million effective hp flying pos YARRRR!!
BAD: 1) What happen if my uber lazor of doom DO NOT kill the enemy capital in one volley? the effectivness of the titan go to hell or so, the cool of it is avoiding the remote rep of enemy carriers for example, click, boom, if it does not die is all useless. 2) What happen if multiple titan show up and blow up other people 100m worth titans just because they have more titans and can do it? this is even more reducing the will to use super-capitals, the idea of exploding in 1 volley from 2-3-4 titans is too much to use them against multiple titan holding alliances. 3) Whatever HP increase we speak about, we are no more using a ship that can wipe entire enemy fleets and "worth" the risk considering the tackling chance are not so high, we speak about sitting in a grid where everything could happen for long time. 4) 5/10 minutes cooldown is too much, i repeat, want US to use titan in grid? firing and sitting still 5 minutes or doing crap dps with guns removing the ability to defend using Smartbombs and neutralizers is not a great idea. 5) We still have the same ship, same cost, we loose the "grid wiping" ability and we still not dock and jump very short.
These are my proposal for making people actually bring titans in fleet fights:
1) The Super lazor should directly SET 0 HITPOINTS on whatever Sub-Capital and Capital he fire, whatever is the fitting, whatever are the effective hp, one volley SHOULD be SURE 100% whatever they fit. 2) The Super lazor should NOT be possible to be used on other Super capitals, find a stupid silly reason for the roleplay on it but do it please, in this way we just one-volley anything but we can't royally **** up with multiple titan removing assetts worth 100b in 1 second. 3)Considering that now we have a weapon that one-volley without tracking issue whatever he shoot AND we don't risk stupid mutually destruction, the idea of having a titan in grid require one thing: shoot more often.
My idea for the "ROF" of the uber lazor: 1) Don't bind it to minutes, bind it to CAP, give this weapon a very big cap use, like 50% or 75% of the total cap, you can fire 1 or 2 times from full cap, then you must recharge with a rof of like 30 seconds to 1 minute or so, that without any cap recharge mod would take lot of time to re-fire 2) Pilots will NEED to decide how to fit, they can decide to fit more tank, faster lock, more cap recharge, it would allow to have titans actually DECIDE how to fit for the purpose they want to achieve. 3) Big organized fleet will be able to USE the cap transfer of carriers for "keeping up" with the HUGE cap need of their super-weapon ships, in this way titans will be the ARMED arms of carriers!, carriers repair the titan, give him cap for shooting the big bad-ass weapon and the opposite fleet do the same, without the risk of having the titan beign one-vollyed, while carriers risk that faith on both side. 4) If a titan want to play alone without cap transfer from carriers he will NEED to fit cap recharge, reducing total tank and other mid-low slots useful stuff. 5) The weapon should be like actual DDD, fire then after 15 seconds damage arrive, this will still require tackling on enemies and allow non-sieged pilots to escape.
I would say that this changes are pretty good scalable, increase on total TITAN number is binded to increase of CAP givers ship, no-one would be so mad to fit 100% cap recharge on a ship that would melt under fire in no-time if not tanked properly with buffer hp and even with crazy number of carriers giving cap the ROF of 30 sec / 1 min guarantee that no-one can re-fire too often.
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wallenbergaren
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Posted - 2009.09.16 09:38:00 -
[251]
Edited by: wallenbergaren on 16/09/2009 09:43:48 I don't think reducing the cycle time of Triage to 5 minutes is enough of a boost.
This is the current cycle of non-balance:
Carriers are capital ships They're good at supporting sub-capital fleets against other sub-capital fleets Because they're capitals people will deploy other capitals to kill them Carriers fail horribly against other capitals
Basically, you want to bring them to a large sub-cap fight, but by doing so you only escalate the fight to a capital fight, at which point the carriers are toast. Damned if you do, damned if you don't
Carriers in Triage mode need a bonus to tanking ability versus other capitals
If they got this then the solution to carriers wouldn't be the boring one of 'lets bring even BIGGER ships', and that boring solution is what's bad about capitals.
In my opinion the balance should be:
Dreads kill POSes and Super-Caps Super-Caps kill Caps Carriers support Super-Caps and Sub-Caps
If a Carrier in Triage tanks equally good against both damage from Capitals and Sub-Capitals there's no way you could ever balance it. Either it will be ridiculously overpowered versus sub-caps, or it will be ridiculously underpowered versus Caps.
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John Grimm
Amarr Rendili StarDrive Yards
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Posted - 2009.09.16 09:45:00 -
[252]
Excellent Blog.
Mother-ships => Super Carriers NOT COOL! How about Carriers => Escort Carriers and Mother-ships => Fleet Carriers.
Now that will be cool!
Tnks for this new Dominion blog, this shapes up to be a great expansion.
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Hull Blaster
Gallente Missions Mining and Mayhem Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.16 09:47:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Mara Intala *Supercarriers are going to get new teeth in the form of the deadly new Fighter Bombers they can launch. Fighter Bombers have exactly one purpose: to destroy capital ships and look very cool while doing so*
Ok this looks really cool. A+ on the sweet look of the Gallente bomber. But my issue here is limiting them to S'carriers alone.
IĘm not suggesting let normal carriers be able to put out a max flight of 15 of them like a maxed skilled carrier pilot can do with fighters (only if they fill there highs with DCUs) but from what I have read they will require being on the front line to use.
With the current cost of MOMs(14b+) I just cant see anyone using them on the front line, not when they can just pos hug and sent 20+ fighters out among there fleet.
Here is what IĘm thinking. Since carriers are smaller they donĘt have the Best hangers and control units. So the new Bombers would take 3x the space and bandwidth of normal fighters to field. So a thanny would only be able to use 5 of them (375 BW) (75000 m3 in current drone bay) so it would make the pilot THINK about what he wanted to do. If the pilot took a full flight of bombers (5), He wouldnĘt be able to carry many fighters or other drones so it wouldnĘt be OP compared to SĘcarriers which would have normal requirements for bombers (25 BW/5000 m3) cause in my mind. A ship like the Nyx has the most advanced, up to date equipment and software there is.
I just donĘt want to see such an awesome new drone model wither away in dust in a mom drone bay sitting at a pos cause they are to expensive to risk on the front line.
Of course the bombers will still require a mom to be used to there fullest. But to be able to use them in carriers will not only make the carrier pilots happy. But the ppl who will be building them happy to. (More need to replace them as they will get used, and lost more)
I completely agree with this, pretty much the same kind of suggestion I was flooding my corp chat with last night. The fact that the "Supercarriers" will be toasted within minutes because of multiple titans arriving I can't help but think in the current form they will just gather dust on a Nyx's hanger deck .
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iudex
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:00:00 -
[254]
Quote: Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode.
I appreciate the MS buff, but the Moros nerf is really upsetting. Trained Gallente BS 5, heavy drones 5 and now 6 days from Gallente dread 5 for the sole purpose to use the Moros with it's drones in unsieged mode. What a waste of skilltime
SAVE THE MOROS, SAVE THE WORLD !!!
_____________________________________________________ My skills // Faction Standings: Serpentis +8.02 / Angel Cartel +9.11 / Gallente Federation -9.99 |
Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:20:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Jordan Musgrat Edited by: Jordan Musgrat on 16/09/2009 03:14:06 DC has some good points for once, but regardless, the problem here is that you just turned titans into the new black ops. I doubt you know how effective black ops are, but titans are to carriers what black ops are to ratters. You gather up 5 titans, start spreading cyno recons out, wait till you can get a few carriers to undock and aggro your recon to defend their system, and bam, instant cyno in, 5 carriers instapopped.
You definitely just changed the titan into a big gank dreadnought. That's not the direction you were looking for.
Do not **** up titans and tell us "ya but we'll fix them later," that's like messing with ECM and making us wait a year for it to be fixed, or messing with the Arazu/Pilgrim and then never really giving them their role back. Titans need some sort of area effect, otherwise instead of nerfing their role, you change it.
You should know by now, that completely revamping a shipclass is not usually the best way to nerf it. If you need ideas, ask, please. Also Motherships need something more than what they have, or what you're giving them. I'm not sure what that should be, maybe invulnerability to focused hicktor points? I can see someone bubbling a mothership from 15km away, but not someone sitting with a small cap injector, an afterburner, and a little local tank, and keeping the second most powerful ship in the entire game sitting like a duck as long as it likes from 30km away. Telling Mothership pilots that they should be fitting neuts is not the answer, that's like telling Titans they should be filling their highs with smartbombs, which is not what you want.
edit: Also if the fighter bombers are to have any chance, try giving them a 15km orbit range, and a 1500 m/s speed, launching their torps from there. That's about the only way you'll keep them from being ineffective and eventually obsolete, as people will simply bunch up carriers with smarties and sit there protecting their dreads. Even more range might be good tbh.
+1 - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Sigras
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:24:00 -
[256]
can someone post what the cost of a supercarrier is w/o the clone vat bays? i'd do it myself but im at work on my phone . . . as for the moros, i kinda see what is being done, basically the moros' drones get the bonus from the siege mod too, i get it, but now it seems that the moros only has 1.5 bonuses . . . can we get a 10% bonus to falloff of XL railguns or something to make XL blasters more viable because as it stands, i have NEVER seen a moros use one, or even a setup that had them . . . how many per day even sell in jita?
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Mistress Loki
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:24:00 -
[257]
The Titan one shot kill cap thing sounds really neat
But unless it gets a good ROF I don't see the massive advantage of fielding one
Should be made a Capacitor based weapon. Capacitor*Locking time = ROF perhaps
(Will give a use to the Carriers who fit Cap Transfer Arrays no? As well as support the idea that they're used in Fleets)
If the Avatars Bonus's mess with that Idea then just re roll its Bonies & Problem solved
Loki
--
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Tiger's Spirit
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:28:00 -
[258]
Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 16/09/2009 10:32:08
Originally by: iudex
Quote: Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode.
I appreciate the MS buff, but the Moros nerf is really upsetting. Trained Gallente BS 5, heavy drones 5 and now 6 days from Gallente dread 5 for the sole purpose to use the Moros with it's drones in unsieged mode. What a waste of skilltime
SAVE THE MOROS, SAVE THE WORLD !!!
Yes. 8 months training for nothing. Thx CCP. Put to siege and get drone bonuses ? What a LOL. End of POS warfare in 0.0 because changed sov rules. Use drones in sniper fleet ? Muahahahaha Use the drones on capital ? LOL again just 1000dps. Drone users sux again. No implants for drones, no rig for drones, no overheat for drones, no damage module for drones. Bravo CCP nice idea again, like the other bullsh*ts with the new developer team.
And other thing CSM for nothing: http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Drone_improvements
nothing happend after 1 years, but CCP listen to CSM.
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Wild Predator
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:31:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit
Originally by: iudex
Quote: Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode.
I appreciate the MS buff, but the Moros nerf is really upsetting. Trained Gallente BS 5, heavy drones 5 and now 6 days from Gallente dread 5 for the sole purpose to use the Moros with it's drones in unsieged mode. What a waste of skilltime
SAVE THE MOROS, SAVE THE WORLD !!!
Yes. 8 months training for nothing. Thx CCP. Put to siege and get drone bonuses ? What a LOL. End of POS warfare in 0.0 because changed sov rules. Use drones in sniper fleet ? Muahahahaha Use the drones on capital ? LOL again just 1000dps. Drone users sux again. No implants for drones, no rig for drones, no overheat for drones, no damage module for drones. Bravo CCP nice idea again, like the other bullsh*ts with the new developer team.
At least you're not a phoenix pilot. Only dread that could be speed tanked by super caps.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:40:00 -
[260]
"Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode."
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU -- Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Tier 5 Battleships
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Droog 1
Black Rise Inbreds
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:42:00 -
[261]
R.I.P. Moros.
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Aylara
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:46:00 -
[262]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 16/09/2009 00:46:31 Titans as super dreads and Motherships as super carriers is utterly, mind-numbingly boring. It takes what we can already do, and puts another spin on it - where the main difference is a "bigger hull" construction tax. What is the point of Dominion if you curb past ambitions and settle for less, without actually addressing where you went wrong?
Supercapitals didn't come out right for three reasons:
- kept relying on isk/skillpoints as a deterrent to ownership, which obviously does not work in the long run
- didn't devote enough coding resources to use unique mechanics, and instead recycled crap from the usual ship lineup
- underestimated how easily players can vaporize any amount of HP
Supercapitals should:
- NOT BE SHIPS, OR USE ANY OF THEIR MECHANICS GODDAMNIT
- be fully persistent and not go "poof" when someone decides they don't feel like defending it that day
- use reinforced/anchoring modes over passive/active tanking for defense
- require upkeep for operations just like starbases, deterring ownership for the sake of ownership through cost AND logistics
- require actual teamwork and logistics in their construction, key word: work
- require actual resources to repair and corporate roles in control
- require more than the push of a button to cyno out
- provide limited services/interactivity to allies with or without an active pilot at the helm
- not have 'normal ship' modules or slots; retrofits involving POS + time + money that leave them vulnerable
Titans should:
- automatically be reconsidered for balancing if more than a handful exist in the entire game
- have an even more powerful Doomsday, but one that does damage over time, costs major resources and leaves tactical after-effects on grid/system to screw with both sides
- not portal fleets, but carry them instead
- provide limited manufacturing capability
- scare the crap out of BOTH SIDES' FCs by preventing anything from escaping
- eat dreadnaughts for breakfast
Motherships should:
- be a viable offensive mobile base for medium-large sized corporations
- rely on signature masking, scanner spoofing and environments to "hide" from hostiles
- provide full clone services, to give fallen allies a chance to rejoin the fleet battle before its over
- provide ammo, charge, drone construction capability
All capitals should:
- NOT HAVE ANY INSURANCE, BASIC OR OTHERWISE FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFGLGHRLGHLNRNGHGHGHHGLRRR
- require jumpdrive spooling that isn't so immediate/instant
- have racial differences in capital stats (fuel cost, jump range, fighter bay, etc) and not just Tech 1
Alright I'm losing steam and I can't even remember half the stuff I wrote here ages ago (includes Dreadnaughts/Carriers). But the point is..
The quality of capital warfare is directly proportional to the amount of new mechanics and coding resources you throw at them, even if the whole thing is unbalanced and buggy as hell to start with.
DC outlined something that many people where thinking about what supercapitals should be (well very close to what he said)!
PS: you could also add an anchorable deep space explorer class ship, which will make all those WH explorers very happy!
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Vile rat
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:57:00 -
[263]
While you're at it take another look at drone scoop range or at least give sentry drones a little engine or something. You still routinely can't scoop them after siege due to beyond 2500 deploy range or even simple bumping.
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CONVlCTED
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:06:00 -
[264]
Originally by: John Grimm Excellent Blog.
Mother-ships => Super Carriers NOT COOL! How about Carriers => Escort Carriers and Mother-ships => Fleet Carriers.
yes please!!!!
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Insane Nutmunch
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:08:00 -
[265]
I quite like these changes, but they have to be looked at in respect to the whole "Dominion" package.
Titans should, over a period of time, become less prevalent. Titans will die and with the new Sovereignty changes there will be more risk associated with building them.
If CCP really wants to make the titans a more exclusive ship they should make the super cap assembly arrays drop something useful to encourage attackers.
The demise of the DDD will not "Stop the blob" in fact it will lead to bigger blobs of smaller ships. All those DDD or even double DDD capable command and battle ships can now have some of their tanks removed and replaced by damage mods.
When Titan ownership has fallen to a respectable level, then then uberness can be returned.
"Super-moms" are going to spend most of their time orbiting POS's just outside shield range with fighter-bombers assigned to interceptors. I'm actually quite looking forward to this
My main concern over the Dominion patch as a whole, is that this patch will change a hell of a lot and there still seems to be so much "in the air". I will be setting long skills on all accounts running and making sure my more expensive assets are safe.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:14:00 -
[266]
Edited by: Gnulpie on 16/09/2009 11:15:18 First: Great to see that CCP and the devs are talking, listening to feedback and ask for suggestions EARLY in the design. Very good. Not only here in this thread but in the other important threads also. Good, thanks :-)
One shot - one kill titan. I absolutely dislike that idea the more I think about it. So far it was that you ALWAYS had some counter against a weapon. Always.
It NEVER happened that whatever you did, you were completely defenceless and had 0% chance.
This is a major paradigm change in the Eve world and I really dislike it. A ship designed to give the opponent zero chance.... urgs Really, think about that.
Doomsday were only really bad with insta-warp away and in cyno-jammed systems. But as I understand, most of the now cyno-jammed systems will be un-jammed after Dominion. So where is the big problem then?
Oh and "supercarrier"? Hmpf, bad name. You asked for suggestions? Heavy assault carrier
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:20:00 -
[267]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
We're well aware of the differences. The issue is that the Moros was doing an average of three times the out of siege damage over the other dreads. A max skilled Moros does over 1100 DPS with 5x Ogre II's and over 900 DPS with 5x Bouncer II's. This is Carrier level damage from regular drones. A Dread's primary damage should come from its guns and the drone bonus should be just that, a bonus, not a requirement to achieve some sort of parity with other dreads.
As I said at the start, we have time and are paying attention. We'll be looking at this in the coming weeks and will work to make sure the Moros isn't relegated to the bottom of the class.
This is true. But this is nothing you didn't know when making this dread. And I could dig out a thread from like 2 years ago that I made to complain exactly about that ("Moros - the swiss army knife of Eve"), yet you didn't change anything for years.
People trusted you. They trusted in persistence of certain ship classes. And they specialised on them. You breach their trust. I'd understand if it were a new ship, you'd see that something is wrong and change it a few weeks after release. But the Moros is old. It exists for years. And it was fine, hardly anyone complained. Many people trained for it because of it's performance against small ships, everyone got used to it. Again you break something that was fine and frustrate all that people who trusted in the persistence of this game for no real reason.
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Aionstar
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:20:00 -
[268]
Quote: Gallente Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Capital Hybrid Turret damage 50% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per skill level IN SIEGE MODE ок, ок...
Quote: Minmatar Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Capital Projectile damage per level 7.5% bonus to Capital Projectile rate of fire per level IN SIEGE MODE =)
Quote: Caldari Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to kinetic missile damage 5% bonus to Capital Launcher rate of fire per skill level IN SIEGE MODE =)
Quote: Amarr Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
10% reduction in Capital Energy Turret capacitor use 5% bonus to Capital Energy Turret rate of fire per skill level IN SIEGE MODE
now all fair
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Mia Zheng
Caldari Frozen Forge
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:23:00 -
[269]
ion cannons!
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Tiger's Spirit
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:26:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Aionstar
Quote: Gallente Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Capital Hybrid Turret damage 50% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per skill level IN SIEGE MODE ок, ок...
Quote: Minmatar Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Capital Projectile damage per level 7.5% bonus to Capital Projectile rate of fire per level IN SIEGE MODE =)
Quote: Caldari Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to kinetic missile damage 5% bonus to Capital Launcher rate of fire per skill level IN SIEGE MODE =)
Quote: Amarr Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
10% reduction in Capital Energy Turret capacitor use 5% bonus to Capital Energy Turret rate of fire per skill level IN SIEGE MODE
now all fair
Oh yes this would be logic. But where is the logic in CCP changes ? Nowhere.
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The Kan
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:27:00 -
[271]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Oh and "supercarrier"? Hmpf, bad name. You asked for suggestions? Heavy assault carrier
not bad.
how about ironclad?
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Nur AlHuda
Amarr Callide Vulpis
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:30:00 -
[272]
Removing 3 bonuses and adding bombers hardly makes from a cap a supercarrier. There is nothink super on it.
That S-carrier will have just more hp but more vulnerable to attaks then regular carrier due to his bomber bonuses that iwll not work agaisnt regular fleet.
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Entity Stonadis
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:32:00 -
[273]
TBH the one and only time I ever saw a moros "stationcamping" he made a nice explosion followed by a copy paste to our killboard some few seconds later. But if this is how moroses are being used, and other ppl dont know how to make nice explosions of them, I can see why nerf bat is required.
Seen too many capital blobs taking out poses without even entering siege, ccp should make it so that entering siege/triage is required to even target and shoot a pos (apply only to dreads and carriers), that way it is actually a point going in with support taking out dread and carriers + attacker needs to bring his own support, not only afk regular dictors cloaked 50km off each of the gates in adjacent systems.
Titans no more keel whole fleets instantly with DD is pure epic WIN, gotta love ccp for that one :D
Ent.
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Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:34:00 -
[274]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: Misanth I assume that you want to separate a Fighter/Fighter Bomber bay from the regular drone bay? So that means we'll still have a dronebay? It's quite a crucial question.
Yes. The issue is simply the discrepancy in size between fighters and normal drones. Remove a single fighter (5,000 m3) and you have space for hundreds of drones. Remove a second fighter and it turns into thousands of drones. This causes a lot of problems. The new bays will alleviate this. In terms of size, they won't be 10,000 m3 nor will they be 500 m3. We will find a sensible balance and apply that.
Appreciate the answer, and yes, I agree with that point. When I bought my Aeon the previous owner had put 287 t1 heavy drones in hold.. quite ridicilous (nice guy tho, no offense). My concern here is what I posted earlier, about what I see as "utility drones", which is a bit of a 'necessity'.
A regular drone bay on a mom should in my eyes hold, at the very least, something like this; 20 t2 sentries 60 t1 sentries (disposable multiple flights in POS/lag environment) 40 EC-600 (two flights for survivability) 25 heavy shield rep bots (5 spares) 25 heavy armor bots (5 spares) 40-60 t2 light (self-defence)
I don't think the above is excessive, nor unreasonable in any way. However, I do think it would be unreasonable to not be able to sport this. The sentries and EC-drones in particular.
Fighters don't work vs POS and in laggy environment, fighter bombers will be in a similar situation (i.e. situational use). In those cases you'd want t2 sentries for a "stable" situation, and multi-flight t1 sentries for throwaway situations. EC- and lights is for survivability. I can live without the rep drones, but as a logistic/multipurpose ship I like to be fleet support, supercap or not. But don't touch my sentries/ec-/light drones! - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:36:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 16/09/2009 11:21:10 Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 16/09/2009 11:19:39
Originally by: iudex
Quote: Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode.
I appreciate the MS buff, but the Moros nerf is really upsetting. Trained Gallente BS 5, heavy drones 5 and now 6 days from Gallente dread 5 for the sole purpose to use the Moros with it's drones in unsieged mode. What a waste of skilltime
SAVE THE MOROS, SAVE THE WORLD !!!
Yes. 8 months training for nothing. Thx CCP. Put to siege and get drone bonuses ? What a LOL. End of POS warfare in 0.0 because changed sov rules and use dreads ? Who will and why ? Use drones in sniper fleet ? Muahahahaha Use the drones on capital ? LOL again just 1000dps. Drone users sux again. No implants for drones, no rig for drones, no overheat for drones, no damage module for drones, no t2 drone modules. Maybe 1-2 months and coming new era: "no drones bonuses to gallentes" Bravo CCP nice idea again, like the other bullsh*ts with the new developer team. Oh yeah and othe thing they just creating now the Titan jump portal "building". Titan will the bigest ISK sink in the Eve world. Years training, +100 bill cost, and the pilots will get an unusable jump portal building. No one will fight with a titan which "i will shot my gun one just pls wait waiting more 5 minutes" ? LOL. Idiotism.
And other thing CSM for nothing: http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Drone_improvements
nothing happend after 1 years, but CCP listen to CSM.
They just nerfing always the gallentes and minmatars.
WTS Gallente Dread pilot and afull fitted moros for 1 ISK
No-one cares that you've trained whatever for 8 months. Happens to all of us. Get over it.
And will buy character and dread for 1-ISK. This post confirms it. _____________________________
Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
Manterror
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:53:00 -
[276]
***Originally posted in CAOD, 2 posts combined into one, may seem a bit disjointed***
Titans should have more HP and much more ship maintenance space. Turn them into nothing more than portable stations suitable for warfare reminiscent of the WWII pacific carrier warfare (patrols/logistics sent out from carriers on the move).
This would help to bring about more sustained and epic battles (also hereby removing/limiting the Titan high-slots, and its ability to use weapons)
Expanding on my "portable station" idea...i believe that having a titan full of other peoples battleships/t2 ships would make them highly valuable to everyone involved, and therefore it would make their deployment into battle a much more carefully thought-out one. And removing the titan's ability to do damage will make it totally reliant on support ships (much like the WWII carrier's dependence on its surrounding ships for protection).
It will bring a whole new strategy into nullsec war, as currently the defending side can warp to their nearest station and grab a new ship if they lost their old one, with this "portable station" on the battle-field for the attacking side, should they choose to deploy it, would be highly valuable to an assault.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:53:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Lucas Tigh
See above about the Moros being balanced and in line with all the other dreads, with the possible exception of the Phoenix. I'm not going to go on about this as others already have.
But really. Isn't it about time that you instead looked at nerfing Amarr? There's a reason that they are the preference, if not standard, of large fleet fights. All the "Oh well, time to train for a Revelation now" comments in this thread should be a wakeup call. When a player doesn't need to make any sort of analysis about what ship would be best suited for their needs (ie, "just fly Amarr"), there's a balance problem. We poor, downtrodden (:P) Gallente pilots were hoping that one of the key selling points of this patch would be CPP not swinging the nerf bat in our direction. So much for that.
Amarr have been FotM FotY FotLFP (flavor of the last four patches). Maybe it's time to bring the balance back to an actual state of balance, like, oh, I don't know, how things are on TQ right now (save a possible buff to the Phoenix).
As was said above: great, another ship class that Gallente are the indisputable worst in.
I think one point peopel forget to explore is.. if revelations are so much the STANDARD.. why don people start fitting 2 EM 2 Thermal hardeners on their capitals (effectively making 3 revelations as dangerous to your ship as 1 moros is)?
As a revelation and nagalfar pilot, my view is that one of main revelation advantages is on logistics of ammo. That being said, this can be balanced with the reintroduction fot he ammo bays with healthy and balanced values.
The moros could receive an extra FIXED bonus (no skill level based) of 40km extra drone control range)
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Ad Valorem
Minmatar Industrial Mite
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:55:00 -
[278]
LOL Gallente!
Did you really think CCP would release an expansion and not nerf Gallente and drones?
Every single expansion for 2-3 years has had a nerf for you, why should this one be any different? This is hilarious.
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Minmatar Assassin
Minmatar Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:56:00 -
[279]
Supercarriers will be really interesting ships, just the only problem still continues. If u wanna have it, must pay another 15$ every month.
i'll go for it, then ship can finally dock to station/outpost.
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Doctor Mabuse
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:56:00 -
[280]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: Supercarrier Name Haters I hate this but have no other suggestions.
The terminology is quite fitting in that the class is an advanced form of... Carriers. The name of Mothership has always been misleading, evoking images of traveling civilizations or some grand exploration vessel, which these ships are not. Even their aesthetic shape suggests ships of war and conflict. If you ever see 'Motherships' again in EVE, they will actually look and function like they should be wearing the name.
Reference WWII navy terminology and use 'Escort Carriers' and 'Fleet Carriers'?
------------------------------------
Who's trip-trapping on my bridge? |
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General Foom
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:56:00 -
[281]
Edited by: General Foom on 16/09/2009 12:03:21 There is way too much discussion about the stupid details of "nerf this ship" or "change that bonus" in this thread....
and not enough focus on the what this change will achieve and how it affects the game at large...
The Proposed Sovereignty changes in dominion are IMO brilliant and a breath of fresh air with CCP proposing new and profound mechanic changes that will effect how everyone plays the game
yet the cap ships proposal seem ludicrous by comparison with the simplistic approach of turning every cap ship into a platform to shoot other cap ships
Hey CCP you have things in the game called "battleships" that already do a great job of shooting at each other and blowing each other up.......... WHY Progenate a whole other family of ship classes that do the same thing only bigger????? it defies belief.
I urge you to reconsider your stance on cap ship changes if your going to treat them like just another way to PEW PEW. love them the way only you guys can.
as more and more people reach the cap ship SP threshold .....more and more the outcome of fights will be decided on your capital pilots alone. The only logical outcome of which is new players to eve just have an even longer Skill training quarantine before they can be truly relevant to any outcome.
whats wrong with Battleships??
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:57:00 -
[282]
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit
Maybe 1-2 months and coming new era: "no drones bonuses to gallentes" Bravo CCP nice idea again, like the other bullsh*ts with the new developer team.
Yes, that's the natural next step. Look at the dominix, it gets a bonus to all drones, even the small ones. It can do a lot of damage even to the smallest frigate. Battleships aren't meant to do lots of damage on small stuff. Therefore the dominix drone bonus will only apply to heavy drones soon.
There are no exciting new tools anymore. Back then you had new interesting capital ships in the expansions, carriers, dreads, titans; nothing you could fly but it was a longterm-goal and you was excited that you will be flying them one day. But in the last years all you see are nerfs and minor stuff. Where is the death star, or something similar ? They said they brought capitals to keep long-term players happy and training skills. That was 3 years ago, since then you saw only nerfs: DD tunnel nerf, MS 0.0 nerf, MS lowsec nerf etc nerf nerf nerf ... I wonder if that's the right strategy. At least it wasn't the part of eve development that made eve great.
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Chagal Civ
Caldari Silver Snake Enterprise Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:57:00 -
[283]
imagine this:
1500vs1500 battle
about 800-900 battleships on each side
about 300 capitals on each side
rest of the ships are support
we have seen such large gatherings of fleets before.
what does a super capital do there ? why is it worth it to field to do 2b damage on a single dread ? what do 10 super capitals do there ? is it worth it to deploy them to destroy 10 dreads ?
you have good support on both sides but as soon as those currently 70-80b(with good fit) worth titans show up on grid they kill 10 dreads of the 200 the enemy has. They all get tackled to the point there is no way to leave unless the whole enemy fleet of 1500 is destroyed in those 5 minutes where they cannot move. They get locked by the entire enemy fleet and primaried one by one. In their current state they will die within 1-2 minutes each before the friendly carriers are able to lock them and rep them. How big the hp boost has to be to able to tank say 3-4 volleys from a hostile fleet of that size with the current module lag in such a battle and why is this ship worth it to sit among the 1500 man fleet where it no doubt belongs. They need way more then an hp boost , some ability that makes them soak up damage for limited time to make them worth fielding and be a tactical asset in a fleet on the field not outside of it.
Will the titan gun/missile bonuses be changed ? atm they are much like a dread in siege with more hp so why fit their gun slots ? people use them for utilities like smart bombs and neutralizers.
Right now an uber tanked leviathan can repair about 3k damage per second with an average of 85% resistances with dual capital boosters and best equipment available(about 100b)and has about 8.5m effective hp. Even that cannot stand up alive in such a battle as the amount repaired (self repair) is useless in a fleet fight so most people don't even fit capital repairers , rather use more hardeners to increase effective hp , let alone the repair rate on the armor tanked titans(it's ridiculous). So why not remove the self repair ability from them completely and give them a huge hp bonus to be able to stand up in large engagements and be worth it to soak up damage from the enemy fleet if they primary it. Or maybe make them take reduced damage from non-capital damage so they are fighting against enemy capital fleet and are worth to deploy to increase the damage on the enemy capital fleet.
Plain 100% hp bonus for example won't make people field them in big capital battles. Too risky and the reward is too small in a lag environment on a big scale. Those giants should belong to the battlefield for a full battle length instead of playing cat and mouse with the enemy fleet all the time. And if the enemy decides to primary one they should suffer a great deal of "damage" for focusing on it not just on any capital. Same goes for mother ships pretty much. Join us : Recruitment thread
Our Corp forum link |
Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:57:00 -
[284]
Edited by: Typhado3 on 16/09/2009 12:01:33
Originally by: Seishi Maru .. if revelations are so much the STANDARD.. why don people start fitting 2 EM 2 Thermal hardeners on their capitals
I actually have seen ships with tanks like this.
another thing that I have to ask ccp is about the alpha strike.
I was under the impression the alpha strike was nerfed to hell because the idea of combat being as simple as "he got his shot off first your dead" wasn't fun. I thought you didn't want combat to be over that quickly and that the whole hp buff + alpha nerf was supposed to make gameplay last longer. While there's still fleet warfare or gate camps it's no longer 1v1 is over in 1 shot or snipering off small ships.
This seems at odd's with your latest plan for titans. Have I been wrong and you didn't remove alpha because you thought it was bad gameplay? if so why did you remove alpha's usefullness? ------------------------------
Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
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Kaahles
Kentucky Fried Capitals
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:04:00 -
[285]
Edited by: Kaahles on 16/09/2009 12:04:55
Originally by: Chagal Civ imagine this: stuff..
mimimimi... You didn't watched the little vid CCP Abathur linked did you? A repeat it just for you what a dev said there: "Titans were never meant to be cost effective. They are just huge d*cks"
EDIT for everything other including the moros "nerf": A) Read signature B) do stuff described in it ----------------------------- OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Contract me all your stuff so I can save it! |
Caroline Nikon
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:06:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit
Originally by: Aionstar
Quote: Gallente Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Capital Hybrid Turret damage 50% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per skill level IN SIEGE MODE ок, ок...
Quote: Minmatar Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Capital Projectile damage per level 7.5% bonus to Capital Projectile rate of fire per level IN SIEGE MODE =)
Quote: Caldari Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to kinetic missile damage 5% bonus to Capital Launcher rate of fire per skill level IN SIEGE MODE =)
Quote: Amarr Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
10% reduction in Capital Energy Turret capacitor use 5% bonus to Capital Energy Turret rate of fire per skill level IN SIEGE MODE
now all fair
Oh yes this would be logic. But where is the logic in CCP changes ? Nowhere.
When was last time you saw anyone use a revelation of nagalfar outside siege? Never very likely. And that is why they don care for their bonuses out of siege.... basically because a Full gank battleship has about the same damage !!!
You could even put all the bonuses to siege only and people would not care!
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Br41n
Amarr Pinky and the Brain corp
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:06:00 -
[287]
Quote: To close, please be aware that we are planning some special events on SiSi in the near future to live test all of this stuff, so be on the lookout for announcements in the Test Server Feedback forum!
Armageddon Day!!!!!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pinky: Gee, Brain. What are we going to do tonight?
Brain: The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
A Sinner
THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:08:00 -
[288]
Stop nerfing gallente ccp. After over 2 years I am obliged to cross train to amarr due to the constant nerfing of this race. Damps, mwd, web and now moros. As I agree some of this changes had to be done, most gallente ships were left by far unballanced than their counterparts of other races. Boost blaster range on gallente cruiser sized ships or give us sick armor tanks and stop listening to the carebears who are being camped in low sec stations by moroses. ----- Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Aero Zolic
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:10:00 -
[289]
Edited by: Aero Zolic on 16/09/2009 12:11:09 Edited by: Aero Zolic on 16/09/2009 12:10:42 "The simple fact is that this class of ship now stays mostly parked on trained alts and is rarely used as they are nothing more than expensive targets for hungry legions of Dread pilots.
No more."
If you're unable to dock or store your supercap to somewhere besides parking in POS shields then you're probably going to have a supercap on a trained alt. What about that?
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Corinae
Gallente Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:11:00 -
[290]
Edited by: Corinae on 16/09/2009 12:13:54 Edited by: Corinae on 16/09/2009 12:13:06 As i said 2 pages ago, with my idea we would have:
1) Titan without carrier support = shoot 1 time, wait ages for cap recharge. 2) Titan with massive carrier support = take cap from carriers and shoot every 30 sec / 1 minute beign the armed arm of carriers 3) Titan not able to shoot at other super-capitals = mothership suddendly become the "titan-hunter" beign not under threat and beign able to deal massive damage with fighter bombers. 4) Motherships and titans able to stay in field, without fear of titan istant-kill
and this all from these changes:
1) Titan Uber Lazor is not time limited (except a 30 sec / 1 minute rate of fire) but use 75% of ship cap for firing 2) Titan Uber Lazor can't be used on other supercapitals, this prevent stupid massive multiple titan one-volley 100b or 20b worth ship 3) Titan Uber Lazor when shoot, the damage is applied after 15 seconds, this mean that non-tackled carriers smart at least to allign when a titan lock them will be able to warp out and nullify the uber Lazor. 4) Titan Uber Lazor guarantee 100% kill on whatever ship he shoot at while not beign possible to be activated against supercapitals.
Titans will be an awesome capital killer only if backed up by multiple carriers pumping the cap of the beehmoth, otherwise he can sacrifice a LOT of tank for beign able to shoot a bit more often, and even if you have 20000 carriers, the ROF of 30 sec or 1 minute is at least for avoiding stupid autocannon-like Uber Lazors beam.
At same time we have super carriers as the worst enemy of titans, and more intresting to bring in a fleet fight due to the ability to ignore titans in field and deal massive damage to other capitals, titans included.
I belive this is the solution that would make the titan useful in fleet fights and at same time make the mothership useful beign invulnerable to titan fire.
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Waagaa Ktlehr
Amarr Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:18:00 -
[291]
Originally by: ElvenLord Well it would be nice and interesting to maybe add a bit of a splash damage (15-25 km radius) to the new DD.
Originally by: CCP Abathur Anyone that cowboys a titan into 150 dreads probably shouldn't be in a Titan anyway. These ships, along with the Supercarriers, are not intended to be solo pwnmobiles. With proper support, however, they will force your opponents to make some hard choices about who or what they are calling primary.
I do remember a certain someone cowboy a supercap more them few times (h-w for example), but I guess ppl change over time :P
That was before HICs :-) And he was under bad influences.
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Tiger's Spirit
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:20:00 -
[292]
Originally by: General Foom
The Proposed Sovereignty changes in dominion are IMO brilliant and a breath of fresh air
Briliant ? ROTFLMAO LOLGGGGGGHHHHHH
They created now the blob are. Thats brilliant :D For what ? For idiots or just for the big alliances ?
No DD = "I have more ship than you, i will win." New sov ? Muahahahaha. Mothly cost for upgrade = "I have more ISK than you, i will win" Ypou have just a little corp, you cant defend yor system, you cant fight against blob, you cant do nothing.
We told. The speed nerf will start the capital and blob era, and came. We said, when the capital and blob era will come that's will bring the Titan, super capitals and capital problems. We tell now, this unlogic sov changes will create more blob, and the 0.0 will change. 1 or 2 rulers will possess there everything, and 0.0 will ruin.
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:20:00 -
[293]
Quote: The new bays will alleviate this. In terms of size, they won't be 10,000 m3 nor will they be 500 m3. We will find a sensible balance and apply that.
So those of us who do use 10km3 will be nerfed. For no reason other then server performance? WTB nephalem??? I bet eliminating ships all together will lead to better server performance also. So we should make it so we all just fly in our pods while we figure out how to eliminate pods also.
Quote: As I said at the start, we have time and are paying attention. We'll be looking at this in the coming weeks and will work to make sure the Moros isn't relegated to the bottom of the class. Smile
Lets say the absolute max distance the naglfail could do damage out to was 60km for the citadels. Which is essentially the equivalent here. The 2 projectiles are about the same dps as the rails on moros. If you dont want these moros pilots to start training revelation now... you have to drastically boost rails or not go through with the nerf.
Quote: Originally by: Supercarrier Name HatersI hate this but have no other suggestions.
[h2]we have no other suggestions. There needs to be no other suggestions. Motherships is the name. If some newb gets confused over the name... Link them this pic.
After all I didnt jump out of my HAS(aka HAC) and into my RNI(aka CNR) then dock in my supercarrier(aka Mothership) renaming it only further confuses the situation. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Vir Hellnamin
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:23:00 -
[294]
More questions:
- can you deploy fighter-bombers in low sec? - can you activate Titan-shot in low sec? -- "Entering MH means instant death. It's worse than 0.0. Even the asteroids shoot back." - Alex Harumichi [GRD]
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Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:27:00 -
[295]
Edited by: Misanth on 16/09/2009 12:30:27 I hope all the ones crying for Supercaps to be dockable will manage to whine through an aneurysm on the game designers. The day my mothership can dock I'll station camp lowsec 23/7. Please do! Great idea!
Supercaps are supercaps, they shouldn't dock for obvious reasons and that's the tradeoff you get when boarding one. On the other hand, isn't it reasonable to let the ship go into the capital-spam age (that's already here btw, and probably will escalate further) with some chance to live for more than a few minutes?
..or give me the right to dock and we have full circle. Motherships being the prime-of-the-life pirate toy. I'll go -10 in no time. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Leaving Eve
Boo Hoo Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:28:00 -
[296]
I was training to fly a Moros, but thanks for the heads up. Won't bother now.
DO NOT NERF IT OR I AM LEAVING EVE
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Tiger's Spirit
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:39:00 -
[297]
Nothing problems with the moros. Station hugger moros ? Why could do it that, dear CCP devs ? Can i explain ? No problem with the moros, but we tell 4 years ago, 30sec - 1 minute redocktime with 15 minute aggrotimer is unlogic, and that's made it station hugger tactic. But CCP devs never listen to gamerbase. 15 min redocktime would be with 15 minute aggro time. No gatejump,no dock if someone agressing other player (withdrawn owned station) and the problem would be solved.
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silentcurses
Caldari Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:40:00 -
[298]
I am on board with 95% of the changes in Dominion, but taking away the drone bonus on the Moros will only have the effect of making it the worst Dread in the game instead of the 2nd best. If any of the Dev's will bother to get in one, get another Dev in a carrier, have that carrier start moving across the grid, then shoot it with the Moros, you will see why the moros needs its drone bonus's!
I also agree that Supercarriers is a lame designation, I would suggest options like Heavy Assault Carrier, Monitor, or even Strike Carriers.
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum Core Factor
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:49:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit
Originally by: Aionstar
Quote: Gallente Dreadnought Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Capital Hybrid Turret damage 50% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per skill level IN SIEGE MODE ок, ок...
[Other dreadnaught bonuses] ... per level IN SIEGE MODE =)
now all fair
Oh yes this would be logic. But where is the logic in CCP changes ? Nowhere.
It would be logical, but I don't think it would actually change much.
E.g. look at a Revelation at the moment, outside of siege. With an all level 5 character, 3 heat sinks and 3 XL beam lasers, it currently does 563 turret DPS (multifrequency) at 50km optimal - less than battleships using Megapulse + Scorch (45/62km optimal) with one third of the tracking. And of course the battleships can switch to ANMF at closer ranges to get up to 916 DPS with four times the tracking.
You basically do battlecruiser-level DPS with capital-level tracking. You're not going to achieve anything of relevance like that.
Removing the bonuses would take the Rev from 563 DPS to 422 DPS with out of siege turrets, and I'd happily support it on the basis that it's logical, but I don't think it's particularly needed. If anyone has stories of being attacked by an unsieged Rev then I would be amused to hear them.
TL;DR - yes changing the other dreads' bonuses would make sense, but as they're hopeless out of siege anyway it's unlikely to change things actually in-game.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:50:00 -
[300]
You are going to have a bish of a time balancing the Titan weapon when you take the number of the things into account.
Triage Carriers and 10+ Titans could demolish 50+ dreads with little effort almost entirely from DD alone. Kept alive by RR and using cycle time to kill dreads using "normal" firepower.
Since I fully expect the mention of other types of DD to mean that you are working on a bouncy-beam-of-delight to wipe out sub-capitals, may I recommend you start with that until you are sure that the current powerblocks ability to field 20-30 Titans won't make them unstoppable?
Will make for some of the best fraps footage ever, but that is not really important
Certainly looking promising so far. Now finish the blog telling us what there is to pew once we routed the bad guys! Give more information actual sovereignty changes (ie. upgrades, modules etc.).
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Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:50:00 -
[301]
Any chance of a new sub-capital class that works similar to fighter-bombers? One of the big problems with capital gangs is they're remarkably good at point defense and very difficult to kill if you don't have several billion isk to field a capital gang of your own. And as you said in the blob, er blog alliances love to hotdrop on just about anything. Case in point, last night some friends of mine had a pair of carriers hotdrop on a friendly punisher (no, really)...in the ensuing fight they managed to kill one of the carriers but it was a comedy fit and it still took a 25 man subcap gang like 15 minutes to get the job done.
I'm not saying we should have zergmobiles rolling around everywhere and capitals get insta pwned by a horde of angry bees, but maybe a new SB bomb that works well against large targets or something? _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
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Djerin
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:53:00 -
[302]
Originally by: CCP Abathur Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode.
Why?!? ---- Sarmaul's crosstrainorgtfo |
Battle Tested
Shiva
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Posted - 2009.09.16 12:57:00 -
[303]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: Battle Tested As it stands right now capital armor reps and capital shield boosters hardly have any affect on a supercap....Shouldnt "supercarriers" and titans at least get 100% repair bonus to these modules? fitting cap rep mods on supercaps is like fitting small reppers on a battleship (basically useless)
We've had a lot of back and forth on this one and it's not completely out the window. However, the question is, aside from just boosting the repair rate or creating new ones, just how much DPS should a supercap be able to solo tank? This is a very subjective and situational argument because one thing we do not want to see is Supercarriers and Titans able to do just dominate a battlefield on their own. Ships such as these should require teamwork and the support of other classes to be utilized to their full potential.
Well considering the new role is a frontline anti-capital platform now and the fact that it is still supposed to be a superior ship compared to the carrier it should be able to sustain much more dmg and not just with extra hp buffer. In most capital battles you will see 50 dreads minimum fielded by alliances/coalitions, that can easily melt through a mothership and a titan with no problem. There is no need for new modules specifically for the supercapitals, just give them a boost to their repair ability and also give them more capacitor capability to sustain the repair modules. Supercapitals should still be a force to be reckoned with and killing one shouldnt be easy. When they were first fielded we didnt see capital fleets like we do now and that needs to be taken into consideration when crunching the numbers on what a titan/supercarrier can tank especially when both supcapital clases are now designed to face off with these huge dread/carrier blobs. |
Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:02:00 -
[304]
On the tanking issue, how about this: logistics get some bonus to rep amount when their target is a supercap. Voila, you get better tanking, teamwork incentive, and a role for sub-caps in a cap fight (be a logistic, or be a BS/HAC trying to kill enemy logistics). _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
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wallenbergaren
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:05:00 -
[305]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
We've had a lot of back and forth on this one and it's not completely out the window. However, the question is, aside from just boosting the repair rate or creating new ones, just how much DPS should a supercap be able to solo tank? This is a very subjective and situational argument because one thing we do not want to see is Supercarriers and Titans able to do just dominate a battlefield on their own. Ships such as these should require teamwork and the support of other classes to be utilized to their full potential.
Well, what are you going to rep them with? Like I said before, triage carriers melt in seconds to dreads. If you want a support ship for caps it needs to be able to tank dreads. But if it can tank dreads it's overpowered vs other things, so just give it a tank bonus vs dreads
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Diehard Si
UK1 Zero KrautbreaK
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:07:00 -
[306]
Like the changes generally.
But Nah, Moros and Phoenix all need a boost. I mean phoenix is useless in a fight, whats can it possibly do in a proper cap battle. its torps need to be LOTS quicker. I'd like to see the dreads specialised a bit maybe for the fleets, so that each one can offer something different. Make it a bit tactical.
The titans need to be balanced enough so people are willing to risk them on the battlefield, giving people a chance to kill them... but without them being the be all and end all of the combat. it shouldn't be 'whoever brings the most titans wins'
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DeviloftheHell
Caldari RaaFharaX
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:16:00 -
[307]
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Know what is better than a capital ship? How about special modified weapons used to blow up other capital ships? I don't know about you but I am already excited over this idea. Thanks to CCP Abathur we have a new dev blog about some of the changes to capital ships coming in Dominion.
congratulations then nerf the other dreads too shooting only in siege ****ing idiots.... fiy your goddam bugs and laggy ****server then touch our ships nerfing is not a solution boost the other races to equal level
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Vall Kor
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:25:00 -
[308]
WOW sounds awesome! But please, please.. Make a 'Fighter Bomber' Class flyable for us regular (read non-super cap users) :P
"By way of deception, thou shalt do war"
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:33:00 -
[309]
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 16/09/2009 13:35:39 Imo a change to caps is good, but these changes go only half the way. The problem supercaps had were never the dps, well the dd was stupid, apart from that a mothership always did considerable dps.
Instead you dont see motherships on the field because they die so easily, same for titans. Titans worked because they wouldnt stay on the battlefield, Moms had to which is why they rarely came out of poses. If they did it was only a matter of time til someone noticed and they die. More hp will only prolong the outcome, instead a new change needs to be implemented for both the titan or mothership (screw supercarrier btw) to have a chance to survive a capital fight otherwise using them is just a gamble against bad odds.
As example, if i reinforce towers with a cap fleet, im putting my fleet at mroe risk keeping supercaps with me as when ppl notice they can hotdropme, kill the supecaps and loose the same amount of dreads/carriers and come out ahead - whereas if i only use normal dreads the risk for the person to hotdrop me is much higher.
Besides with the altest great changes, especially wormholes, i had hopes for a more clever change for capitals and supercaps. Something like subsystems like t3 cruisers have them for caps allowing many different specialized roles similar to t3 cruiser.
Also caps being able to move through entire regions in minutes, making it so easy to hotdrop someone needs changing imo - tho i honestly am not sure if cutting jumprange would be a good solution.
Good start ccp but youre far from finished with caps :/ -
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Peter Kallesoee
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:36:00 -
[310]
can carriers please have +2000 m3 more fule hangar space? the current fule bay is to small to be abel to follow a dread fleet around.
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Yaay
Game-Over
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:42:00 -
[311]
Can you give everyone the ability to use buy titans and moms on sisi to get maximum testing? It makes no sense to leave the testing up to the handful capable when it will affect everyone on the live server.
This needs the widest scale testing possible.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Areo Hotah
Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:51:00 -
[312]
Can we have a rebalance of the short range weapons as well? They are not being used at all (maybe a lone station camping Moros has ions).
Ideally they would become the point-blank in-your-face **** guns, and the rails/arties/beam the longer-range version with (a lot?) lower dps. Also introduce capital cruise launchers pls.
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Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:51:00 -
[313]
Originally by: Yaay Can you give everyone the ability to use buy titans and moms on sisi to get maximum testing? It makes no sense to leave the testing up to the handful capable when it will affect everyone on the live server.
This needs the widest scale testing possible.
Yah.. but it'd require that market also had the best tank mods etc available too. Having a t2 tank on the 'new' Titan/Motherships wouldn't reflect TQ-performance. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:53:00 -
[314]
The fact people see the phoenix as a weak dread is pretty funny, given it does almost-close-range-moros dps at 150km (200 with rigs) with a 37 second flight time, and almost identical DPS to the other dreads at point blank.
All you need is to have phoenix' fire on their own target or just on secondary, 10 phoenix can pretty easily kill a sieged dread in maybe 1.5 - 3 minutes on their own.
Literally the only downside is shooting unsieged capitals, but against a hostile dread fleet they're arguably the best dread, especially when you consider the burst tank achievable with a full gank fit.
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Yaay
Game-Over
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Posted - 2009.09.16 13:53:00 -
[315]
Originally by: Misanth
Originally by: Yaay Can you give everyone the ability to use buy titans and moms on sisi to get maximum testing? It makes no sense to leave the testing up to the handful capable when it will affect everyone on the live server.
This needs the widest scale testing possible.
Yah.. but it'd require that market also had the best tank mods etc available too. Having a t2 tank on the 'new' Titan/Motherships wouldn't reflect TQ-performance.
That's less of a problem than the month and a half it takes to build a titan on sisi.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Keretech
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Posted - 2009.09.16 14:00:00 -
[316]
Good idea I think, not sure what is going really happen to all titans now though..
BUT I am sure you heard that babillion times, again WHEN capital and in general all ships get really simply mass x speed -> momentum attribute properly calculated so it should not be possible to 'bump' much more heavier ship with small one? This is most annoying thing in EVE and capital ship flying. If you really consider this, then any capital ship should cut straight trough any fleet of ships smaller in class and mass but several zeros with no or just a little changing course and not to get 'bumped'. When I fly Nyx I should see anything but capital ship simply splashing off my windshield, please CCP think about it for just one minute..... THX
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Fearless M0F0
Coalition Of Nations.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 14:01:00 -
[317]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
We're well aware of the differences. The issue is that the Moros was doing an average of three times the out of siege damage over the other dreads. (snip)
Do you realize you guys have been systematically nerfing Gallente over the last 3 years?..
Moros and Domi are the only Gallente ships worth flying and you are taking off the table the only good reason to train for Moros
I have been crosstraining Amarr and Caldari with my 2 gallente chars for most of this year so it doesn't really affect me. I just hate what you guys are doing to this race.
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LiMu Bai
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.16 14:02:00 -
[318]
Edited by: LiMu Bai on 16/09/2009 14:03:59 SAVE THE MOROS!
At least one time listen to player base. Dont take away its role.
@ SupertitanoneshotBBQweapon:
All onehitters will be bad for a game. Loosing a Carrier in 1 sec @ a jumpbridge is even more stupid than the common DD. It will be massivly exploited.
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Alekanderu
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.16 14:07:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Removing the bonuses would take the Rev from 563 DPS to 422 DPS with out of siege turrets, and I'd happily support it on the basis that it's logical, but I don't think it's particularly needed. If anyone has stories of being attacked by an unsieged Rev then I would be amused to hear them.
TL;DR - yes changing the other dreads' bonuses would make sense, but as they're hopeless out of siege anyway it's unlikely to change things actually in-game.
actually unsieged dread fleets have been successfully used at long range against battleship fleets on several occasions
out of siege they do equivalent dps (much higher alpha) to a sniping bs using t2 ammo at 150km; obviously their tracking is worse than the bs, but it's still good enough to track a bs at sniping ranges most of the time
i do agree though that making the other dreads rely on siege too wouldn't change anything in practice
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Tester128
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Posted - 2009.09.16 14:11:00 -
[320]
nice new name btw - Scarier, sounds kinda scary
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Sigras
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Posted - 2009.09.16 14:15:00 -
[321]
ok, since nobody did it for me, im doing it myself now that im at home.
The current cost of a supercarrier (a Nyx for example) in raw materials is 12.2 billion give or take, plus the 250 million it costs to fuel the POS for 4 weeks to build the thing
(this is assuming all cap component BPO's at ME 100 and the Nyx BPO ME 5)
so say 14.5 billion adding in for a margin of error.
The capital clone vat bays are 1.3 billion of that cost or around 9% of the building cost.
so the cost of a supercarrier is coming down a fair amount.
On to a different topic . . .
IMHO, the problem with capital ship battles is that more = better 100% of the time. The new DD is going to change this a bit, but still 99.99% of the time more = better
The reason for this i believe is that dreads in siege are an island unto themselves in that the only thing that effects them is damage. Think what would happen if battleships couldn't receive RR and couldnt be jammed webed dampned tracking disrupted or target painted. More would always be better.
One of the things i love about this game is the diversity and the options open to me. I would take 2 guardians 2 falcons a curse and 3 battleships up against 10 battleships any day of the week
I would love to see a capital ship that can put on special capital class Ewar modules to effect caps in siege/triage or even if we saw the removal of the tanking bonus to siege modules but they allowed RR.
As it currently stands, i challenge anyone to come up with a group of 20 or less cap ships that can take out 20 dreads other than, 20 other dreads, 20 new supercarriers with the fighter bomber, or 10 titans with the new DD :p
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Avaruusmies
UK Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.09.16 14:32:00 -
[322]
while i welcome all these changes, i hope that you are going too boost the hps of the supercarriers. as was stated ''The simple fact is that this class of ship now stays mostly parked on trained alts and is rarely used as they are nothing more than expensive targets for hungry legions of Dread pilots.'' double or triple the hps, or give some sort of capacitor boost so we dont end up spending 100billion isk on rare officer cap rechargers please
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Attrezzo Pox
Amarr The Bastards The Bastards.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 14:48:00 -
[323]
Damn. Too bad this doesn't do anything to prevent the creation of Wow-type content expansions.
I'm all for new ship types and Options. I'm not for endless fields of capitals. Or capitals becomming the new standard battleship. They're supposed to be behemoths for God's sake. Only affordable by the richest few, and generally only really useful in tremendous alliance warfare.
I'm not looking forward to the days where cap piloting skills are required to join a 0.0 alliance, or where every empire player missions in a carrier.
No bueno. *-------------------------* PoX IS Eve!!! BOOM!!! |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.09.16 14:53:00 -
[324]
Edited by: Jason Edwards on 16/09/2009 14:55:36 Titans: I really hate the 1shot hit deal @ 5min cycles.
Moros: No more station camping because you get your 1 min deaggro. Titans warp in 1 pop blewm.
I would really prefer titans had these massive tanking abilities... like actively tank 20 dreads in siege without breaking tank. Alternatively the titan itself does like same dps as the blog suggests or so; except not in 5min hits but instead 1 min hits. In other words. Same pwn power as the current 1 hit per 5mins except. So the titan doesnt become this uber hitter. Unless you can hold that capital on grid for 5 mins. This supports the idea of having support at least somewhat. Also since there's a 30 second halt; which allows aligning; you then take about 30 seconds more to get up to speed. So it's about 1 min to get away. 1 min cycle would make it possible that right when you're getting away. You can fire again. There's no 1min wait, run, come back for next shot. You kinda are designed into needing several shots; staying there for fun.
The other issue I find with the titan deal. It'd be so much dmg happening. Even the supercaps being hit just once. The sheer amount of damage would rip away shields. The ehp living in armor, and structure also. So lets say you're a nyx. You absorb the damage into your shields then hit into your armor tank. The armor tank most likely being able to suck up the rest of the damage. You rep up as you get away. Net change? You need to just be afk at a pos to recover your shields.
Now lets say you're a wyvern. Your shields suck up the damage. It then bleeds into your untanked armor. You turn your cap booster on. You then have armor damage. Oii that sucks balls lol.
So lets say they do 2mil dmg in those 5min hits. That's about 8000dps i thinks. Lets just take same dps and dmg but put it into 1min strikes. That gives you about 400,000 dmg hits. Practical to be used against subcaps; except there's a fair locking time for that. Carriers/dreads cant really sustain that amount of damage; but it isnt any sort of ... "I lagged for 10 seconds and came back to see my pod, wreck, and a titan... but I had a hg slave officer fit thanatos!"
There's no insane hit and run problems. You need the titan there to sustain for a couple minutes at least.
On top of all that. You can give supercaps epic built in aux nano bonuses to make titans be able to sit there. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Alekanderu
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.16 14:56:00 -
[325]
Originally by: Attrezzo Pox Damn. Too bad this doesn't do anything to prevent the creation of Wow-type content expansions.
I'm all for new ship types and Options. I'm not for endless fields of capitals. Or capitals becomming the new standard battleship. They're supposed to be behemoths for God's sake. Only affordable by the richest few, and generally only really useful in tremendous alliance warfare.
I'm not looking forward to the days where cap piloting skills are required to join a 0.0 alliance, or where every empire player missions in a carrier.
No bueno.
the inflation of isk and sp is going to cause this no matter what, the only way to avoid it is to remove caps altogether which is a bad idea since older players are going to want a goal to work for or they'll quit the game
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Attrezzo Pox
Amarr The Bastards The Bastards.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:01:00 -
[326]
Originally by: Alekanderu
the inflation of isk and sp is going to cause this no matter what, the only way to avoid it is to remove caps altogether which is a bad idea since older players are going to want a goal to work for or they'll quit the game
I was making reference to an attrition mechanic. Yeah you can have your titan or your capital, but it costs to maintain. If you want to keep it you gotta keep the oil changed and put air in the tires.
As for new stuff to keep old players around... I thought that's what t2/3 was for. t2 capitals? Anyway yeah. *-------------------------* PoX IS Eve!!! BOOM!!! |
ByFeve
Caldari Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:05:00 -
[327]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: Battle Tested As it stands right now capital armor reps and capital shield boosters hardly have any affect on a supercap....Shouldnt "supercarriers" and titans at least get 100% repair bonus to these modules? fitting cap rep mods on supercaps is like fitting small reppers on a battleship (basically useless)
We've had a lot of back and forth on this one and it's not completely out the window. However, the question is, aside from just boosting the repair rate or creating new ones, just how much DPS should a supercap be able to solo tank? This is a very subjective and situational argument because one thing we do not want to see is Supercarriers and Titans able to do just dominate a battlefield on their own. Ships such as these should require teamwork and the support of other classes to be utilized to their full potential.
I strongly have to agree with "Battle Tested" in this matter, and wanna point out some things.
When "Motherships" was introduced to the game they were almost impossible to kill, but in todays EVE with both Interdictors and the Heavy version, combined with megablobs of capsulers all over EVE they are an easy prey wherever they go outside cynojammed systems. This results in a insane expensive carrier that's a pain to have since it can't be docked and most people don't dare to use where it matters.
To give this ship an 100% bonus to Capital Repairs is FAR from making it something that dominate anything - you should know this since your initial dev-blog states just this fact when talking about how times changes in the area of how much capitals there are. U could even add 500% to the capital reps and it wouldn't be close to dominate any real battlefield, but that would be an unbalanced bonus. 100% however isn't. And similar/bigger bonus should be applied to Titans also.
so don't be chicken about this McFly :p
//ByF The wise knows what he knows not! |
Irish Duff
Universal Exports Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:13:00 -
[328]
I didn't read the whole thread so it may have been asked already but will the new targeted dd be able to fire in lowsec?
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Ven'Nochthos
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:24:00 -
[329]
Edited by: Ven''Nochthos on 16/09/2009 15:24:31 .
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Shadoo
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:24:00 -
[330]
Interesting changes.
I'm looking forwards to taking 20+ Titan fleet out to have a spin at some poor little alliances capital fleet .
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Soldur
Helljumpers Double Dutch Rudders
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:24:00 -
[331]
Edited by: Soldur on 16/09/2009 15:30:34 im just glad i can fly every capital ship so when one gets nerfed i just switch over to another.
Edit I cant wait to see the major powers using 20 titans to insta pop others titans with the mega beams
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:30:00 -
[332]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto DC, you're insane if you think that any worthwhile object in the game will ever be limited to a handful. Any game that's afflicted by Serious Business Syndrome has to be designed with one central rule in mind - hardcore players will do anything it takes to win. Spend 23 hours a day onlining POSes? Sure, I can sleep over downtime. Spend 4000 man-hours mining minerals for a Titan? Why not? If it helps someone win at Eve, they'll do it, and be damned to their social life, sleep habits, or overall sanity. Not everyone will, but you have to balance the game for those who do. Any proposal that makes Titans worthwhile is going to guarantee that they're common after enough time, no matter what they cost, what skills they require, how much effort they take, or what sort of obscene restrictions you place on them. For that matter, even if they aren't worthwhile, they'll still be common - look at Moms. Expecting rarity is fundamentally stupid design.
</rantmode>
It's okay if you're a skeptic, but I think hardcore players would know better what acts as a limiter than CCP. I already said this, but they keep trying to rely on isk/sp, which only slows people down in the long run.
If you read all of what I wrote, you'd get a hint of how rarity is preserved. But I'll state it very bluntly right here:
Rule #1: Player Interference
Construction of supercapitals would be very visible, where anybody with a covert can see Titan hull sections being made at a POS. Current system means people use alts and you never know if a shipyard is building a Titan, Mothership, or absolutely nothing. But unlike the current 'all or nothing' death system, you'd have a dozen very expensive and very important POS to defend where losing any one could be as much as a mothership and send completion date back months.
Rule 2: Expensive Ownership
Currently, once you build a Titan you have no other financial considerations. If Titan upkeep requires serious logistics and cost, it effectively locks the 'bored rich carebear' or solo player out of ever owning one - or any small group. Owning multiple Titans as an alliance is not only increasing the number of targets you must protect, but the manpower and time you spend maintaining them. So unlike a spaceship, people would have to start considering Titans as a form of infrastructure. Unlike money, manpower is harder to get and even harder to preserve.
In addition, actions you'd consider trivial on a normal ship, such as repair and refit would consume massive resources and time.
Rule 3: Always Vulnerable.
A Titan can be something you can try to hide, but ultimately, can't. It's 100% persistent and there is no "poof" if everyone logs off. It stays in space as an anchorable asset when not being used, which gives hostiles a constant 24/7 window of opportunity. Its not enough for a few hardcore elitists to have the willpower to slog through the mud to build one if they don't have the numbers to protect it. Titan rarity scales with the playerbase because only the top two or three entities can defend theirs and everyone smaller can get steamrolled by them.
A Titan which isn't being maintained (repaired, refueled) in a way to keep up with the raids (however unsuccessful) is not going to live. The siege on one can last weeks, through a dozen battles if need be.
Rule #4: Team Asset / Team Death
Using one today is largely a solo affair, with limited interactivity during jump bridges. Rarity is possible when defensive and offensive capabilities require a team to use properly. The pilot shouldn't be in control of everything the ship can do, and should in fact, only act as the main navigator.
Also consider that if a Titan is being used to full potential, there are going to be hundreds of people with clones/assets stored inside, and massive resources piled up. Even if we made the ship cost 500bil, the total loss could exceed 1 trillion.
So there you go.
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Sarah Moonshine
The Maverick Navy Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:31:00 -
[333]
Where do I begin?
Titans... While I wholeheartedly agree titans needed a nerf of some sort, removing it's AoE seems wrong to me... way, way wrong. Guess I'll join the "you oughta do something about its agility or making it so that it can't warp right after firing the DD" chorus; Heck, you could give it an hp boost, allow it to fit siege modules (making it another dread in the field) and require it to be sieged in order to fire a DD. Of course, most people would just warp off by this point, but still...
Moros nerf is just plain wrong. Now it's on pair with Phoenix in its sheer uselessness.
Same for a fighter bay; carriers should be able to field any and all of the standard drones on the fly. Else, once a flight or two go down, you're pretty much defanged. It also limits its versatility even more and curbs gameplay. Thus being, please, please, please, please, leave the drone bay as it is.
Can't comment on removal from clone vat, command link bonus, because I've never used them anyway; triage was pretty risky in a mommie but removing options is bad. Good call on the duration / consumption stuff, though.
As for the new bomber fighters, heck, they should be assignable. And, provided they're not too overpowered, consider making them available for carriers as well (they can't field as many). --
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Butter Dog
Gallente The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:33:00 -
[334]
oh yes
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1083064&page=1#6
thank you etc
great changes
----------
AKA 'Bitter Dog'
Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05 |
Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:35:00 -
[335]
Originally by: Corinae As i said 2 pages ago, with my idea we would have:
1) Titan without carrier support = shoot 1 time, wait ages for cap recharge. 2) Titan with massive carrier support = take cap from carriers and shoot every 30 sec / 1 minute beign the armed arm of carriers
The reason a timer was added between doomsday activation and jump was because people fitted them to regenerate enough cap to jump in 7 seconds after a doomsday.
If the same fit was added to a Titan with no timer between beam of death activations a single Titan could kill 9 capitals per minute. Bring out 5 of those titans and you won't have to worry about local nor remote reps as any opposing fleet will removed from space within a few minutes.
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:36:00 -
[336]
Quote: One more thing - the Hel is getting rid of its current repair bonuses and trading them in for bonuses that enhance the endurance of its Fighters and Fighter Bombers. I guess the Flight Deck Chiefs on Hels like duct taping spare bits of armor onto their strike craft or something...
So the 3 pilots who actually fly a hel... would use it to rep poses. During sieges as you can rep the shields, skirt them, and if being shot. duck right into the shields again.
Except we know minnie suck balls. So any possible use must be nerfed. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
ByFeve
Caldari Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:39:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Corinae As i said 2 pages ago, with my idea we would have:
1) Titan without carrier support = shoot 1 time, wait ages for cap recharge. 2) Titan with massive carrier support = take cap from carriers and shoot every 30 sec / 1 minute beign the armed arm of carriers
The reason a timer was added between doomsday activation and jump was because people fitted them to regenerate enough cap to jump in 7 seconds after a doomsday.
If the same fit was added to a Titan with no timer between beam of death activations a single Titan could kill 9 capitals per minute. Bring out 5 of those titans and you won't have to worry about local nor remote reps as any opposing fleet will removed from space within a few minutes.
This is accually an intresting idea if U use the Capital Energy Transfers to this so they get a real function in this game. I dunno exactly how this dude imagine it, but U could work with the idea to make Titans shoot more often if it get's energy transfered from Carriers. ______________________________________ The wise knows what he knows not! |
Avatoin
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:41:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Keretech Good idea I think, not sure what is going really happen to all titans now though..
BUT I am sure you heard that babillion times, again WHEN capital and in general all ships get really simply mass x speed -> momentum attribute properly calculated so it should not be possible to 'bump' much more heavier ship with small one? This is most annoying thing in EVE and capital ship flying. If you really consider this, then any capital ship should cut straight trough any fleet of ships smaller in class and mass but several zeros with no or just a little changing course and not to get 'bumped'. When I fly Nyx I should see anything but capital ship simply splashing off my windshield, please CCP think about it for just one minute..... THX
Actually according to a previous blog, a similar bump change was set to be released in the latest patch (or at least in 1.5) but was taken out due to possible desync issue sthat could result from a very unlikely senario. I believe in the changes would happen in a future Apocrypha patch, or by Dominon at the latest.
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Sarah Moonshine
The Maverick Navy Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:47:00 -
[339]
Edited by: Sarah Moonshine on 16/09/2009 15:49:55 Oh, and supercarriers... that's adding insult to injury. --
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:50:00 -
[340]
Sounds like a good concept. The devils in the details of course, but the basic plan seems fine. I'm also hoping you have plans, even if they are distant at the moment, to implement actual motherships at some point in the future.
Would it be possible to get a cool trailer with the new expansion where an avatar shoots one of these super lazorz from it's "mouth"?
Also, alternative name suggestions for the supercarrier class. Not that I mind the name that much, but naming anything with super this or that just seems like a thing you'd want to avoid. Some of these are almost as bad though, but it isn't going to be pretty, if you insist on using the word carrier in there. Anyway: Fleet carrier, strike carrier, heavy carrier, assault carrier, combat carrier and battle carrier.
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Juwi Kotch
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Posted - 2009.09.16 15:56:00 -
[341]
1. Despite having nearly 70mil SP now I always have avoided to train for capital ships (besides Freighters), and concentrated on sub-capitals and the skills supporting the efficiency of their modules and weapons. However, from time to time I was eyeing the Moros with its Drone bonus as an interesting ship, linking sub-cap warfare with POS-batting. The Moros has a distinctive function and role in capital fleet engagement, she specializes in fighting the sub-cap support fleets. This will be gone, and thus the only incentive for me to ponder training for capital ships. I have still another 2 years or 3 to train to become an even better sub-cap pilot, so I think I will stick to that for now.
2. The most important change to capital ships is still missing: To get rid of bumping as a fighting tactics. It is rediculous, that it is still possible to effectivly play a major role in killing Dreads and Carriers just by bumping them around with small ships. Instead of nerfing ships left and right, CCP should invest time and effort to code something what makes the small ships bump off the big ones, and not vice versa.
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kyrieee
Brutal Deliverance Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:00:00 -
[342]
Edited by: kyrieee on 16/09/2009 16:02:29 Edited by: kyrieee on 16/09/2009 16:01:08 Titan super death ray is a bit 'meh' CCP needs to show some restraint. Weapons of mass destruction don't make for interesting gameplay. Personally I don't think there's a big difference between a death ray and a super smartbomb. The problem with both is that their 'balance' is rooted in Titans being rare, but there's not an effective mechanic in place to keep Titans rare. Upkeep for supercaps sounds like a great idea to me
My gripe with this Titan change is the lack of any ambition to turn it into something useful and unique. What people like about EVE is that bigger is not better, but unfortunately that design philosophy hasn't been applied to supercaps. Bigger IS better in this case, and if they can't come up with a better design then they should scrap them.
Having a superweapon could be okay, but don't make that the Titan's role. Personally I don't think there's anywhere to go in terms of destructive capabilities after capitals, so don't make the Titan's role destruction. Make it an awesome support ship and come up with new forms of support / logistics that only a Titan can provide (like jump bridges).
Its role should be unique. Death ray role = extremely unimaginative A Titan that has a death ray but is not fielded solely for the use of the death ray is fine in my book.
edit: btw, upkeep doesn't just have to be a simple isk transaction. Isn't the keyword for the new sov system 'infrastructure'? Make it a requirement to have an infrastructure to support supercap, like some kind of supercap maintenance facility
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CNW Thornike
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:07:00 -
[343]
It is absolutely awesome news that CCP plans to make changes that makes carriers, carriers. Realism is one of the main reasons I and many other pilots enjoy EVE so much. Let's also ensure the lower-tier carriers are also focused on their job, rather than being logistics ships much more than carriers. Well done again, CCP. --- LSD is an area of the mind that could be called 'unsane' - beyond sanity, and yet not insane. Think of a circle with a fine split in it.. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:07:00 -
[344]
You (and quite some others) here forget that there are ways to destroy a titan besides dropping dreads on top of him. Sure you can get 30 titans and attack with them, killing 30 dreads every 5 minutes, which isnt that impressive tbh, but what if that poor alliance you decided to throw your titans grab their battleships? Then you are using 30x50B=1.5T isk to kill every 5 minutes 30 battleships (assuming tracking is infinite). I can think of cheaper ways to do that.
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Apple Boy
Gallente Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:08:00 -
[345]
so, you're nerfing the one reason why the moros is worthwhile, DON'T TOUCH! the whole point of the moros is that it can deal with support when out of siege.
titans, how are you going to deal with multiple titans being able to hop into a system whenever they want and ninja reinforce POSes or incap station services or whatever else in one volley and then getting out unharmed. This is easily doable with the amount of titans currently in game. I see this being abused very quickly after release and ruining the game for everyone.
motherships, supercarriers is just insulting. as for that drone bay, you better not make it so carriers/moms have only 1,000m3 or something for regular drones, especially if moms still can't dock. needs to be at least 5,000 m3 for regular drones. Having to constantly use an alt to reload drones for a mom that can't dock will just **** them off and pretty much guarantee that you won't see them on the field very often. Also, keep the triage mod for moms. It seems rather stupid to leave that for carriers but not their upgrades.
dreads, with the upcoming reduction in the need for POSes for sov, what's going to be their main role that will keep people using them? it's not like people are going to want to go "roaming" with them.
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EveFairy0
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:13:00 -
[346]
Hel and Moros changes are a bit meh, sounds they're gonna be the new worst ships of the class if they weren't already.
'Instapopping' of any kind is just stupid game mechanism how ever way you put it. Way better for titans would be to prevent using more than one of the current aoe dd's (on grid, in system w/e during the activation time). And after that just tweak it a little (maybe bit less dmg but also less delay; also naturally slower align or warp delay for firing the dd). That gives the 'titan team' some edge from using it but still would have to rely on using conventional fleet to clear the floor while giving some sort of chances for the enemy at the same time. DD would still be unique and usable but not the party spoiler it tends to be atm.
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:13:00 -
[347]
Quote: Dreads : What i find currious is that there is so much goon whineage about the moros nerf Confused Are there so many goons using the Moros to stationcamp ?
Are people(not just goons) complaining that the dps is so low without drones because they only field sniping dreads ?
So you think a blaster moros is a plausible setup on tq? You are able to manage the 7.5km range while in a moros sieged?
@ 25km with maxed skills the best dps you are putting out is about 3500dps with blasters.
With rails. You get about the same dps from 25km and further. With the utility of being able to change for long range. Bubbled blaster moros vs capfleet @ 90km = moros who does nothing but wait to die.
People complain about station camping moros... but what about station camping 1hit titans? The fix is not to undock your capital into the titan? Wait so the fix for station camping moros is... dont undock into the station camping moros?
Nobody trained moros for it being as good as a revelation. It was purely the out of siege drones that made it a good dread. Nerf that... you are left with a ship nobody will fly. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
ropnes
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:18:00 -
[348]
Edited by: ropnes on 16/09/2009 16:18:59 I think Titans should be a lot more rare and A LOT harder to kill, as in you don't just go and kill them in a fight.
The idea of a 100 bil investment that you risk losing any time you deploy it is stupid. "It's supposed to be a big ****" - I know, but that's a really bad answer. You can't do this and that because of art resources and whatnot, but you can spend time making a big ****? Sorry, try again
A 100 bil isk ship should be able to be deployed without a massive risk of losing it. Tbh they should be similar to T3 ships in their ability to adapt different roles. You can deter people from just using them in any engagement by making it expensive to deploy them.
If they're extremely hard to kill in a regular fight then how do you kill them? Well, maybe assault the support infrastructure for the Titan? Just throwing some ideas out there. The current implementation of it being a regular ship with a overpowered weapon shows a huge lack of vision.
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Taladool
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:19:00 -
[349]
I still like the idea of an area of effect rep module for titans.
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jeffb
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:26:00 -
[350]
Guys I've never left empire but here are my sweet ideas for the dominion expansion. :)
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RansomList
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:27:00 -
[351]
Why the hell would you do that to the Moros?
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:30:00 -
[352]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist (snip...goddamn 4000 character limit...)
Yes, CCP keeps trying to rely on isk/SP to balance the top end, which is clearly doomed to long-term failure. We can agree on that. The trick is to balance them on a cost/effect basis, not on a "they'll be too expensive to have more than a couple" basis. The problem is, you're falling into exactly the same pit you're yelling at CCP for falling into. We both know that 60 billion a shot isn't enough to stop big alliances from assembly-lining these things, but you seem to think that 500 bil will be. While that price tag might stop Titans from being built, it won't be because it's too expensive to afford them, it'll be because it's too expensive for what they do. If a new Titan costs 500 bil, is permanently vulnerable, and is just a glorified outpost, then people will just take that money and build 20 normal outposts. Titans will at that point be rare for the same reason that third-level outpost upgrades are rare, which I don't think is what you want.
And no, those restrictions you described won't cut it. You're essentially describing a POS - always in space, always can be attacked, has a fuel cost, multiple players can use it. And while POSes die, I think we can both agree that this doesn't stop them from being exactly as heavily used as they need to be. Remember when people would have said that POS-spamming an 80 moon system was clearly insane and would never happen? All you're doing is saying that Titan pilots have to log off in POSes every night - this is hardly going to kill the ship. For that matter, if they cost what you suggest, it'll barely be noticeable except to the poor ******* who has to fly it.
Put simply, you seem to be once again relying on isk and effort as your balancing tool, and it won't work any better for you than it did for CCP. Just make the stupid things balanced in their own right.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:36:00 -
[353]
Originally by: Jason Edwards People complain about station camping moros
To add to this if station camping moros is an issue what about station camping carriers? Should carriers be gimped so they can't station camp? The moros didn't have exclusive rights on station camping and so the problem is overblown.
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Serj Darek
Minmatar Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:51:00 -
[354]
Do the people involved in making these changes on the CCP side actually still play the game outside of the testing region? Seems to me that a good portion of these changes were to correct game balance issues from over a year ago.
Anytime you allow your user base to model game balance is the point you start to lose connection to your user base, which is the status quo of the CCP <-> Customer relations at the moment. The CSM was intended to bridge the gap (right), which seems to have been accomplished by an NDA and dissemination (wtf) of future game mechanic changes. Nothing could possible go wrong there...
It's a sad time when almost all of the proposed changes are from previous forum posts from random people, where some of them had very little positive feedback on their idea(s). Instead of relying on forum whining, half baked ideas from the user base and somewhat supported ideas from the user base (courtesy of CSM), can't you take back control of your game?
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Saul Reaver
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.16 16:57:00 -
[355]
I'm very exited about the "Supercarrier" class capital ships. However i do think CCP should think of a new "Class Name" instead of "Supercarriers". Personally i prefer "Motherships" to keep their tag. These FighterBombers look and sound pretty awesome but Titans on the other hand are in dire trouble. The market for Titan's is already failing. Changing them into nothing but "Flying stations" this new weapon sounds quite boring. A one shot weapon that can kill a cap? wow, Dreads can already do that job. The Dread fights i have been in normally a primaried dread lasts around 30 seconds so i think it's a bit pointless regarding the changes to Titan's. I think the Titan class should have additional skills maybe? Range of DD? Distance of jump portal? What the Titan class needs is to make them a bit more skill intensive in order to stem the current Titan craze where everyman and his dog seems to be getting one. CCP has to be very carefull they don't ruin the "Supercapital" class altogether. Only time will tell i guess.
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Saerynn
Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:07:00 -
[356]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Rule 3: Always Vulnerable.
A Titan can be something you can try to hide, but ultimately, can't. It's 100% persistent and there is no "poof" if everyone logs off. It stays in space as an anchorable asset when not being used, which gives hostiles a constant 24/7 window of opportunity. Its not enough for a few hardcore elitists to have the willpower to slog through the mud to build one if they don't have the numbers to protect it. Titan rarity scales with the playerbase because only the top two or three entities can defend theirs and everyone smaller can get steamrolled by them.
A Titan which isn't being maintained (repaired, refueled) in a way to keep up with the raids (however unsuccessful) is not going to live. The siege on one can last weeks, through a dozen battles if need be.
I like this idea. The devil is in the mechanics, of course, but I think it's worth exploring. |
Shpuntik
Invicta. Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:10:00 -
[357]
Edited by: Shpuntik on 16/09/2009 17:10:36 I'm glad that ddd is being changed its been needed for a long time and most of people who are against it have a titan or use 5-6 of them on hot drops. The strongest alliances in the game now have enough to nearly take out cap fleets with them as I'm sure it takes 26 or 27 to destroy a carrier according to test recently on sisi. DDD as said causes alot of strain on the server and when u get a fleet of say 100-150 travel 20 jumps only to jump in a system to find 3-5 titans there launching a ddd can be quite annoying.
As the devblog said tho titan changes are still working progress and not fully set in stone so what i would like to see is instead of this single ship thing is perhaps make the ddd an ew weapon of sorts say for example avatar uses ddd and it drains so much cap from every ship in an area or makes an effect of reduced cap recharge for an hour something like that. Or perhpas make it a deeathstar weapon able to destroy a pos with one shot at a rate of 1 pos every day or 3
As for motherships or supercarriers I still don't tthink they are worth getting despite reduced cost they are still too expensive as it is thing I would like to see is instead of make hic points scramble stop them jumping out and warping maybe make it stop them jumping out but still able to warp same with titan (dictor bubble unchanged) would mean more skill required to catch one and make the remote eccm more important. ---InViCtA---
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:20:00 -
[358]
Originally by: kyrieee btw, upkeep doesn't just have to be a simple isk transaction. Isn't the keyword for the new sov system 'infrastructure'? Make it a requirement to have an infrastructure to support supercap, like some kind of supercap maintenance facility
Upkeep, especially tied to sov holding, is ridicilous. I, and several of my friends, live out of high/lowsec and do raids into nullsec. We're not interested in holding space, but we do have motherships and titans. Personal owned ships.
Adding an upkeep, and especially if it's tied to spaceholding, is plain stupid. And what would you do if one of these pilots are on vacation, get injured, or whatever reason stays out of the game a few weeks/months - he's gonna come back to see his ship gone?
Not everyone is interested in holding space, and not every cap/supercap is alliance owned. Upkeep is a horrible idea. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:24:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Serj Darek can't you take back control of your game?
Problem is it takes a game designer with vision. Someone that plays the game nearly constantly. Even then the players will be aware of certain issues because it affects them more.
The real issue is that ccp waits too long to address these issues. Issues like this, nanos, bpos, etc should have been all addressed 6 months from when everyone knew there was a problem.
As it stands if you find an advantage it's a moral imperative to exploit it for the next 3 years until patched. If you don't exploit it then the problem won't be addressed.
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Kweel Nakashyn
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:25:00 -
[360]
Originally by: Doomed Predator The name supercarriers is lame and needs to be changed asap.
qft
If you want to change name, you could use Juggernauts or something... I can hear "I'm in a ultracarrier" future memes allready. Fetchez la vache ! moar(tm) < soon(tm) :(
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Serj Darek
Minmatar Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:28:00 -
[361]
Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Serj Darek can't you take back control of your game?
Problem is it takes a game designer with vision. Someone that plays the game nearly constantly. Even then the players will be aware of certain issues because it affects them more.
The real issue is that ccp waits too long to address these issues. Issues like this, nanos, bpos, etc should have been all addressed 6 months from when everyone knew there was a problem.
As it stands if you find an advantage it's a moral imperative to exploit it for the next 3 years until patched. If you don't exploit it then the problem won't be addressed.
I have always loved the sandbox experience of Eve, but changing the sandbox because people threadnaught has always agitated me.
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Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:36:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Serj Darek
Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Serj Darek can't you take back control of your game?
Problem is it takes a game designer with vision. Someone that plays the game nearly constantly. Even then the players will be aware of certain issues because it affects them more.
The real issue is that ccp waits too long to address these issues. Issues like this, nanos, bpos, etc should have been all addressed 6 months from when everyone knew there was a problem.
As it stands if you find an advantage it's a moral imperative to exploit it for the next 3 years until patched. If you don't exploit it then the problem won't be addressed.
I have always loved the sandbox experience of Eve, but changing the sandbox because people threadnaught has always agitated me.
You can prove that CCP change things because of threadnaughts? If you can, then I'll make sure to launch a few myself in the future to get my will through. *rub hands*. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Vorononv Circut
The Maverick Navy Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:37:00 -
[363]
Will titans get a bigger drone bay now that they're supposed to stay around and fight?
Also, I know you've responded to the Moros whine already, but I would really like to see sentry drones move towards you (maybe only 10m/s) when you recall them. It would allow you to hit the moros w/ a support nerfbat (is that really necessary?!?) and still help it out a bit while in siege.
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Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente Sane Industries Inc. Novus Auctorita
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:39:00 -
[364]
Just thinking some evil thoughts....
Make the titan weapon do some insane amount of damage. When it hits a ship, it picks shields, weapons or structure (% chances depending on the race) and rips off 50-95% of whatever's there. Then any leftover damage gets chained onto a nearby ship until it's all used up. Think of it as a giant pinball of pain bouncing through the grid.
Thus, the doomsday becomes a weapon of *chaos*, not destruction. DD's don't destroy ships, they cripple them. They radically change the tactical situation. All hell breaks loose. The fecal matter hits the rotary impeller.
For added giggles, have a small chance of the damage chaining onto a blue. Have this chance increase as the reds get more and more eviscerated by the DD (or multiple DDs).
Needless to say, ultimate comedy value is ensured when the DD bounces back onto the Titan.
World Domination - It's fun for the entire family! EViE - The iPhone / iPod Touch Skill Training Monitor
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CONVlCTED
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:41:00 -
[365]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist ..stuff... make titans BIG ...stuff...
that would be so awesome. though i doubt convincing ccp to do something drastic like this is pretty much impossible. But i fully support your idea for what its worth :)
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Hull Blaster
Gallente Missions Mining and Mayhem Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:51:00 -
[366]
Is it me, or do you guys see this new focused DD becoming a tool for putting POS's into reinforced in super double time? Imagine it if you could just drop 4 or 5 Titan's onto the grip next to an enemy POS... boom boom boom boom jump out. POS is stuffed before anyone can even lift a finger.
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:52:00 -
[367]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
If you are on grid without proper support, then you probably didn't want that Titan anyway.
Then let them dock, mommies too.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Serj Darek
Minmatar Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:56:00 -
[368]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: CCP Abathur
If you are on grid without proper support, then you probably didn't want that Titan anyway.
Then let them dock, mommies too.
I agree they should be able to dock. All of the people that have Moms and Titans should be able to dock them until the Dominion changes are reversed due to idiocy. :)
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:57:00 -
[369]
Originally by: Vorononv Circut like to see sentry drones move towards you (maybe only 10m/s) when you recall them.
I thought they already did that at something like 1m/s. Problem is you warp in, get bumped, tossed out drones, start shooting. By the time you coast to a halt the drones are stuffed and too far for a recall by align/warp out time.
Better to abandon the drones then to spend a full siege cycle with them slowly inching back for a recall.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:59:00 -
[370]
Well, eveyone and his brother is chiming in on the balancing issue's associated with this new role and weapon system for the Titans, so I'm just going to throw this out there.
The broad strokes:
Have the new Super Weapon tied directly to the Titans cap to determine damage and ROF.
The details:
The Super Weapon can not be fired unless the Titan attains a very high amount of cap. The Super Weapon always drains the Titans cap completely. The Super Weapon can do extra damage if the cap level is higher than the minimum amount needed to fire the weapon. In other words, the Super Weapon by design channels all avaliable cap into the blast.
This opens up a huge number of decisions the Titan pilot must make in fittings and tactics, as well as forces a cap fleet commander to make some hard choices when determining the composition of the rest of the cap fleet, such as:
Does the Titan pilot fit for maximum capacitor amount? Does the Titan pilot fit for maximum cap recharge? Does the Titan pilot devote more of his fit to tank and depend on his supporting caps to feed him cap? If under heavy fire should the Titan pilot spend his cap on his tank (requiring a longer time to be able to build up to fire again), or should he hope his buffer and support fleet can sustain him and fire his weapon more often? Does the Titan pilot fire as soon as he has just enough cap and pop a dread, or should he wait and build up a bit more and try to put some serious hurt on that enemy Titan or Super Carrier? Should the supporting caps funnel cap at a normal rate to the Titan and attack at full strength themselves, or should Triage capable caps enter that mode to boost the Titans cap/tank more quickly at the cost of most of their own offensive capability?
If this were done, I would then seriously consider the boost to a Titans survivability come in the form of a bonus to repair time rather than repair amount. Yes, the Titan can use his reps to repair damage much more quickly than other caps but that also chews through a lot of cap (which has become his most valuable commodity).
Just a thought.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:01:00 -
[371]
Originally by: CCP Abathur For current Carriers, there's no plans for that at this time. However, in a perfect world all capital ships would be modular like the Strategic Cruisers and you would be able to customize things much more. I'd much rather see us do something like this than try to add to current Carrier's plethora of available options.
GREAT we still cant get T3 cruiser production up to decent levels yet and already these guys are talking about T3 Supercaps! SHESH! Quote:
There's no solid plans for it at this time, but the concept isn't going away.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.*
Stop freaking worrying about why things the developers did 5 years and more ago no longer make sense. |
Vorononv Circut
The Maverick Navy Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:17:00 -
[372]
Originally by: Crackzilla
Originally by: Vorononv Circut like to see sentry drones move towards you (maybe only 10m/s) when you recall them.
I thought they already did that at something like 1m/s. Problem is you warp in, get bumped, tossed out drones, start shooting. By the time you coast to a halt the drones are stuffed and too far for a recall by align/warp out time.
Better to abandon the drones then to spend a full siege cycle with them slowly inching back for a recall.
AFAIK, they don't actually move towards you that fast. They 'pulse' on and off between 1m/s and zero. Also, I believe they drift towards your target at that speed. It's a problem in BS gangs when you're point-blank on a shield and sentry drones slowly migrate to inside the forcefield and lose their lock. This might also account for some of the problems in being unable to scoop after a cap fight. But I digress. If they came towards you at some reasonable speed everything would be fine. Also note that 10m/s is enough to help out, but not game-breaking. At that speed it would still take over a minute and a half to return if you moved 1km away. It mostly helps you recall when they spawn outside your dock range or you get bumped away.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:25:00 -
[373]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: Battle Tested As it stands right now capital armor reps and capital shield boosters hardly have any affect on a supercap....Shouldnt "supercarriers" and titans at least get 100% repair bonus to these modules? fitting cap rep mods on supercaps is like fitting small reppers on a battleship (basically useless)
We've had a lot of back and forth on this one and it's not completely out the window. However, the question is, aside from just boosting the repair rate or creating new ones, just how much DPS should a supercap be able to solo tank? This is a very subjective and situational argument because one thing we do not want to see is Supercarriers and Titans able to do just dominate a battlefield on their own. Ships such as these should require teamwork and the support of other classes to be utilized to their full potential.
I've pitched this idea in Features & Ideas before, but it sunk through the pages rather quickly. Tech 2 Capital repair modules don't necessarily need simply more repair rate. 5% or maybe even 0% would suffice. Instead, make them vastly more cap efficient. This would free up slots, maybe for better resists (better fleet supportable), maybe for more interesting fits containing modules you don't necessarily expect on a capital. Reducing the need for massive Cap Recharger II blobs on them can only be a good thing.
The hitpoint boost was already covered. Another nice thing would be a static role bonus of 900% to module HP of either low or med slots, depending on the supercapital. The 1min 30seconds you can get out of an overloaded active tank are fine for sub-capitals and maybe normal capitals. If your active tanking BS survives these 90 seconds, it was already one heck of a fight. Fights involving supercaps (should) take a bit longer. There is also a strong possibility of a tiny bit more than 20 people on grid, making "90 seconds till my tank burns out" vs "module activation delay" quite a gamble.
Hel change: Err, now the former powerhouse of remote repair, which noone skilled/bought that wasn't into that type of fleet activity, is going to become the one supercarrier without remote repair bonus? Huh?
Moros change: Good.
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McDaddy Pimp
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:36:00 -
[374]
some name suggestions for the new mothership
Heavy Carrier Assault Carrier Fleet Carrier Skirmish Carrier Capital Destroyer
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Kassasis Dakkstromri
Caldari Fallen Angel's Blade.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:37:00 -
[375]
Like the changes...
Would be great to see some type of explosion radius effect from the Beam - like a focused AOE so there is a splash effect to drones/ships near (and along the trajectory) of the target.
Think Classic Anime Spaceship "Main Gun" -- always epic always cool
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The Yzzerman
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:37:00 -
[376]
DONT NERF MOROS ; DAMMIT
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Georn
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Wicked Nation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:37:00 -
[377]
I dislike the Moros Nerf.
At least give him the usual Gallente 10% Bonus to Drones while out of siege, which is increased to 50% in siege. Still bad.. but not as terrible as removing the dronebonus completely to siege modus.
____________ nerf metagaming, boost fun |
Korinn
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:38:00 -
[378]
Originally by: Ranger 1
The broad strokes:
Have the new Super Weapon tied directly to the Titans cap to determine damage and ROF.
The details:
The Super Weapon can not be fired unless the Titan attains a very high amount of cap. The Super Weapon always drains the Titans cap completely. The Super Weapon can do extra damage if the cap level is higher than the minimum amount needed to fire the weapon. In other words, the Super Weapon by design channels all avaliable cap into the blast.
This is a really bad idea purely because it would allow cap transferred titans / dumb full recharge fits that gain you full cap in under 10 seconds to kill 6 caps per minute (assuming you can lock them fast enough) - it's cool having its determined ROF linked to how much cap you can give it (so having more ships cap transferring it causes more damage - reminds me of the gorg siege laser in nexus! ), BUT, it needs to have an inbuilt limit to its' ROF so things don't get stupid.
Say... under normal circumstances 1 shot every 10 minutes based on each titans' default cap recharge with max skills, 1 shot every 5 minutes with a couple of cap rechargers and then a MAXIMUM of 1 shot every 2 minutes given the titan has enough cap to fire that fast (transfers).
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Valator Uel
Caldari N'Th'Rack Squadron Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:40:00 -
[379]
Originally by: McDaddy Pimp some name suggestions for the new mothership
Heavy Carrier Assault Carrier Fleet Carrier Skirmish Carrier Capital Destroyer
In colour for better emphesis
Quote: Aya > Hostile tcf gang coming to h-pa Deva Blackfire > ships? Ralarina > Yes, in ships
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CCP Abathur
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:40:00 -
[380]
FYI, nearly all of these changes will be hitting the test server tomorrow. We are also planning some special events very soon that will allow people a chance to test things out directly.
Originally by: Vile rat While you're at it take another look at drone scoop range or at least give sentry drones a little engine or something. You still routinely can't scoop them after siege due to beyond 2500 deploy range or even simple bumping.
Yes, we can look into this.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Since I fully expect the mention of other types of DD to mean that you are working on a bouncy-beam-of-delight to wipe out sub-capitals?
We can actually do several very cool things and plan to iterate on the super weapon concept in the future. However, as stated in the blog, super weapons will be mutually exclusive. There is also nothing that says future Titan abilities will always be offensive in nature.
Originally by: Mioelnir Hel change: Err, now the former powerhouse of remote repair, which noone skilled/bought that wasn't into that type of fleet activity, is going to become the one supercarrier without remote repair bonus? Huh? Or do you only mean the amount bonus, leaving the range bonus as it is?
Range is the same.
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shialata
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:45:00 -
[381]
Originally by: Soleil Fournier Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 15/09/2009 23:31:17
I agree with a previous poster:
Putting 2+ titans in a system will be a big problem with this design. Your 1 titan won't be able to DD a supercap to death, but that titan buddy right behind him lands the finishing blow 2.45 seconds later. People won't be willing to risk putting their super caps on the field with that type of scenerio.
It just gets worse when there's 4,5,6 titans in the same system, but this design would encourage that type of titan blobbing. It's like Neuclear weapons....mutually assured destruction keeps fighting from happening...but we want to encourage fighting, not have a cold war situation, right?
There needs to be some type of limiter on super cap blobbing.
Ok if this has already been mentioned then apologies, but surely a limit on titans per system could help with this one after all they are ships that are so massive that we could say they disrupt other titans jump drives if more than a set number are in system this would also encourage the concept of a balanced fleet rather than the titan blob that we all know will happen, especially with the hitpoint bonus because no-one wants a set number of titans insta-popping their way through a capital fleet whilst still tanking the remainder of the fleet thats stuck in siege and unable to get away.
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Viqer Fell
Minmatar Maelstrom Crew
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Posted - 2009.09.16 18:52:00 -
[382]
Yes I know this will sound whiny Zymurgist but What is the point of showing us the nice shiny gfx for the fighter bomber when the camera is consistently "broken" and refuses to let you zoom in when looking at current fighters depending on your ship size.
If I am in my Carrier and launch fighters and click look at one of them I can only zoom in as far as if I was looking at my own carrier. Hence all I see is a cruddy little "x" flying about me.
Unless that is you are telling us you've sorted that little irritating feature out ;P
Overall though and tongue in cheek whinges apart these sound like good changes and I am eager to see how they pan out in reality on TQ
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Serj Darek
Minmatar Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2009.09.16 19:01:00 -
[383]
Originally by: CCP Abathur ....
Are you going to allow docking of super-capitals post-domi?
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik
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Posted - 2009.09.16 19:02:00 -
[384]
Originally by: Viqer Fell If I am in my Carrier and launch fighters and click look at one of them I can only zoom in as far as if I was looking at my own carrier. Hence all I see is a cruddy little "x" flying about me.
That sounds like you have disabled "Drone Models" as a GFX effect. This includes Fighters and NPC Rogue Drones.
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Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 19:05:00 -
[385]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
We're well aware of the differences. The issue is that the Moros was doing an average of three times the out of siege damage over the other dreads. A max skilled Moros does over 1100 DPS with 5x Ogre II's and over 900 DPS with 5x Bouncer II's. This is Carrier level damage from regular drones. A Dread's primary damage should come from its guns and the drone bonus should be just that, a bonus, not a requirement to achieve some sort of parity with other dreads.
As I said at the start, we have time and are paying attention. We'll be looking at this in the coming weeks and will work to make sure the Moros isn't relegated to the bottom of the class.
From its description I thought that was the idea behind the Moros. At this rate, you might as well just have one dread for all four races, that way you don't have to put effort into that pesky balancing thing. Its not like Eve players like variety or anything... right?
Colonies and Capitals |
Zastrow J
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Posted - 2009.09.16 19:16:00 -
[386]
Supercarriers as a name didn't bother me but if I had to suggest alterntives I'd rename existing carriers "Light Carriers" and motherships "Heavy Carriers"
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.09.16 19:20:00 -
[387]
Originally by: CCP Abathur FYI, nearly all of these changes will be hitting the test server tomorrow. We are also planning some special events very soon that will allow people a chance to test things out directly.
THAT!!
I love the 'new' approach with early and open-ended testing/iterating/feedback from the players.
Very awesome.
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Avernus
Gallente Imperium Technologies
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Posted - 2009.09.16 19:22:00 -
[388]
In regards to the Moros,
When I left Eve several months ago for a break, I did a mini-rant, a part of which I'm reminded of now. (I'm still not in-game)
When one ship is over powered, don't nerf it. Boost the other ones.
The Moros is an interesting ship, because of it's drones outside of siege. Don't trash that, make the other dreads more interesting in their own ways.
Simple philosophy really.
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Shadowsword
Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 19:38:00 -
[389]
Originally by: CCP Abathur FYI, nearly all of these changes will be hitting the test server tomorrow. We are also planning some special events very soon that will allow people a chance to test things out directly.
Wow, that's fast. And leaving two or three months to test things out is nice, too.
I'm concerned about titans used en-masse, however. Right now, if you want to fight a pack of 10 titans, you need loads of dictors and HID, and a few dozen dreads, but if you manage to get the jump on them, odds are that you'll kill at least one or two. You'll lose lots of tacklers, but it doesn't require insanely big fleets. Now, with those changes, that group of 10 titans can probably kill 10 dreads nearly instantly, then kill some more dreads with XL guns, then another 9-10 dreads, and so on. There's not going to be that many ships that can both inflict signifiant dps and get under the tracking of XL guns. Aside from HAS, I don't see any. A large group of titans might become even less dependant of support that right now.
By the way, since tools are put in place to destroy more easily big ships, can we hope to see in the future something to bridge the gap between battleships and dreads? After years or using the same handfull of battleships as the only choices for big, tough long range platforms, there's a need for some new content here. ------------------------------------------
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Crexa
g guild Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2009.09.16 19:44:00 -
[390]
Not sure this has been asked already but, in regards to the MOMs. Since your discussing the removal of the clone bays, will they now be able to dock in stations? Or will the alt continue to remain trapped in the ship? Its seriously a pain to train a character up, only to have them "chained" to a ship that sees action only occasionally.
Some consideration to this issue, and I think a bit towards the titan pilot as well. As we all know who is and isn't a titan pilot and have them in our address book to see when they are logged on. Would be nice to switch pilots and, "oh what a surprise, it wasn't pilot Micky Moose as you expected evil enemies of ours! Muhahahaha!!!"
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ultima necat
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Posted - 2009.09.16 19:51:00 -
[391]
Imho,
One super-weapon on the field is awesome. 10+ super-weapon on the field are ... a big problem. Area effect or not.
If you downgrade MS into expensive assault ship, without repair, clone bay or command modules, why not go the other way with the Titan?
Remove all weapons, expand the maintenance bay and the corporate hangar, add the former ms ability to fit several command modules, and add a special ability to repair all ship inside the maintenance bay. Perhaps once per hour -10% per level in the skill formerly know as doomsday operation ? And increase hp by x10. Instant mobile station.
Just an idea.
Ultima necat
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Dandy Lyon
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Posted - 2009.09.16 20:04:00 -
[392]
I'm not a cap pilot, and I don't engage in huge fleet wars, and I'm getting ready to prove it. Here's an idea to have the size of titan fleets be self balancing. What if this massive tank boost they're about to get is tied to the size of their support fleet? What if all subcap ships in the titan's fleet added a percentage to the titan's tank? Let's say 600k m3 of ships adds 1% to the buffer bonus of the titan. Therefore, 100 bs's would double the tank. But, if there are 2 titans in that fleet, they have to share the bonus. This makes the fleet commander consider carefully the amount of titans vs support ships he'd like to bring into the battle. It also gives less skilled pilots a reason to be in the fight. In a huge battle, do you want to add more firepower (more titans) or more tank (more support ships).
Obviously the numbers can be adjusted as needed.
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Battle Tested
Shiva
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Posted - 2009.09.16 20:05:00 -
[393]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 16/09/2009 13:35:39
Besides with the altest great changes, especially wormholes, i had hopes for a more clever change for capitals and supercaps. Something like subsystems like t3 cruisers have them for caps allowing many different specialized roles similar to t3 cruiser.
Good start ccp but youre far from finished with caps :/
Motherships with T3 type subsystems is an awesome idea, it will take skills to improve the bonuses and can be specialized in certain areas. This way you can fit command modules, or better tank, or better fighter/bomber damage, or better logistics ability.......THIS is an awesome idea that should be considered |
Vorononv Circut
The Maverick Navy Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 20:07:00 -
[394]
Originally by: Dandy Lyon Here's an idea to have the size of titan fleets be self balancing. What if this massive tank boost they're about to get is tied to the size of their support fleet? What if all subcap ships in the titan's fleet added a percentage to the titan's tank?
So the solution will be simple. No fleets under 255. Your titan is always awesome \o/. Once you get another 254 players, you can bring a second titan along. Unstoppable.
Yeah... no.
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Zardos
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Posted - 2009.09.16 20:13:00 -
[395]
I'll throw my two pennies worth in. First of all, the name change from Mothership to Supercarrier. Both names have their merits but I disagree that the term "Mothership" leads to confusion over their role. A Mothership is described as "A mother ship is a vessel or aircraft that carries a smaller vessel or aircraft that operates independently from it.". That's precisely what they do - they carry Fighters/Fighter Bombers. Changing their name might cause more confusion. The reason they aren't presently used is because their Attack power vs. Cost ratio is skewed. They just don't hit hard enough to warrant risking them for their cost.
Having said that, I really like these changes. MoM's will now be useful once more and could well be essential tools in anti-Capital roles, and removal of the Titan area effect and making it a targetable weapon will mean and end to the DDD spam and force pilots to be bolder in their deployment. I do fear however that "not being capable of killing a Cap Ship" is too underpowered. The largest, most powerful, most expensive ship in Eve is only capable of destroying one BS instantly? What's it firing? Wet Lettuce? What about making it capable of severely damaging POS? That'd shorten POS Sieges which most people hate.
All in all though, welcome changes.
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Ordais
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Posted - 2009.09.16 20:16:00 -
[396]
Hm...finally going for the Titan-superbeam...should i say "everyone told you so since 2006?" But hey, FINALLY you do it, cudos to you. But i still ask myself why it took you 3 years to realize it?
Now for the new/old supercarriers, i'm not sure if its good to make them anti-capital...sharing their role with the dreads AND the titans that are now anti-cap as well with their beams? I see that you wouldn't know what else to do with them...
Maybe its time you introduce real subsystems for capital-ships and weaponry to take out this subsystems. Lets say, fighter-bombers cannot kill a titan, but disable his shield-generator/mega-beam weapon/whatever.
Maybe then a battlefield and its weapons (ships) would have more layers finally, and capital-ships like dreads/supercarrier/carrier wouldnt cover the exact same roles.
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Vorononv Circut
The Maverick Navy Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.16 20:17:00 -
[397]
Edited by: Vorononv Circut on 16/09/2009 20:18:32
Originally by: Zardos I do fear however that "not being capable of killing a Cap Ship" is too underpowered. The largest, most powerful, most expensive ship in Eve is only capable of destroying one BS instantly?
Nah, it's better than you think. He said it shouldn't kill a Super Cap in one hit (Mom/SuperCar or Titan). I think the intention is to one-hit almost any other ship.
Edit: Spelling
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Commanders Heaven
Gallente Nex Exercitus
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Posted - 2009.09.16 20:18:00 -
[398]
Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode.
You Really want uss gallente pilots to respec do you?! Nerfring our entire ship from the myrmidon to the freaking moros? What is the reason for this? Bloody ****ing hell.
It's the members who make the corp, and not the other way around... |
Dandy Lyon
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Posted - 2009.09.16 20:19:00 -
[399]
Originally by: Vorononv Circut
Originally by: Dandy Lyon Here's an idea to have the size of titan fleets be self balancing. What if this massive tank boost they're about to get is tied to the size of their support fleet? What if all subcap ships in the titan's fleet added a percentage to the titan's tank?
So the solution will be simple. No fleets under 255. Your titan is always awesome \o/. Once you get another 254 players, you can bring a second titan along. Unstoppable.
Yeah... no.
Like I said, I have no real experance here. But 254 bs's would increase the Titan's tank by only 254%. Some of the other posts were talking about needing a 1000% improvement. How long would it take a good number of dreads to down it? Also, without some support ships, a titan and 254 bs's are gonna have some problems. If some of those pilots are flying smaller ships, the titan's defence drops. So, let's say you're right, a titan and 254 bs's show up to the fight, but the other side chooses to bring 5 titans and 250 bs's... Who's gonna win? I'm not sure unstopable is accurate.
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H Zebra
Zebra Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.16 20:20:00 -
[400]
so you are turning the moros from a ship i like to fly and want to fly into one that will gather dust in my hanger untill you rebalance it back into something usefull
GJ ccp
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Serj Darek
Minmatar Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2009.09.16 20:27:00 -
[401]
Originally by: H Zebra so you are turning the moros from a ship i like to fly and want to fly into one that will gather dust in my hanger untill you rebalance it back into something usefull
GJ ccp
I think that's why all of the assorted super-capital pilots are asking about docking. That way everyone can park their super-capitals and not have to waste a character. If they allowed docking I would buy a mom (supercarrier is a horrible name), but can't be arsed parking a character ad finitium in space.
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 20:44:00 -
[402]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto And no, those restrictions you described won't cut it. You're essentially describing a POS - always in space, always can be attacked, has a fuel cost, multiple players can use it. And while POSes die, I think we can both agree that this doesn't stop them from being exactly as heavily used as they need to be. Remember when people would have said that POS-spamming an 80 moon system was clearly insane and would never happen? All you're doing is saying that Titan pilots have to log off in POSes every night - this is hardly going to kill the ship. For that matter, if they cost what you suggest, it'll barely be noticeable except to the poor ******* who has to fly it.
Put simply, you seem to be once again relying on isk and effort as your balancing tool, and it won't work any better for you than it did for CCP. Just make the stupid things balanced in their own right.
You obviously skimmed both posts. I only said the construction would be visible at POS, and that Titans would use a form of anchoring and reinforced modes for defense. I did not say Titans would anchor themselves at POS.
Further, if you want to make the comparison between POS and a mobile station Titan, at least make the effort to understand why POS are common. It isn't because of POS mechanics, but the stats that are fed into them. That isn't to say I'd even want to borrow the code straight from POS even if it was similar enough to do so. I just blasted CCP for recycling old code if you haven't noticed.
You know, lets pretend for a moment that a single POS costs as much as a Titan.
- can be purchased from market, doesn't need logistics or manpower to construct and definitely doesn't need protection - can be set up and fitted by one person in an hour or two at no cost, where fitting isn't likely to change - one guy can store enough fuel at corporate hangar for months of operation, in one trip - one character is all you need to manage it, without any real skills - two characters to operate the guns - can be taken down and moved in a small 4 hour window - can't be blockaded efficiently as friendlies can drop out of warp inside defensive shield - one dedicated individual can handle a dozen POS themselves
By comparison to what I'm suggesting, it's not even close. You need manpower and logistics for every operation. And since EVE has a tendency to grow in size, logistics become easier, and resources more abundant - it would still be difficult for anyone not at the top of the food chain to protect theirs.
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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
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Posted - 2009.09.16 21:04:00 -
[403]
I was just thinking but maybe have a form of electronic warfare affect titans like the HIC Warp Disruptor Generator which can keep a supercapital locked in place.
So instead of a hic sporting a warp disruption generator perhaps give it a module that can shut down a titan superweapon (not ecm). Maybe offline the titan superweapon with an energy surge (for rp reasons) so the titan pilot has to keep trying to online it. Or something.
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Battle Tested
Shiva
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Posted - 2009.09.16 21:05:00 -
[404]
I think Titan DD weapon should be like a Warp Disruption Field Generator (scripted module). In which case it can do (just throwing a number out there) 1 mill damage single targeted, or scripted for remote burst damage for 100k per ship in a 10km AOE. This would then give it the ability to be effective against both capitals and subcapitals. Both scripted and unscripted would have to be on a targeted ship/object and the AOE script could also have a damage delay effect so that the ships would have to be bubbled in order for the weapon to be effective vs sub capitals. |
Irida Mershkov
Gallente War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.09.16 21:10:00 -
[405]
Jesus Christ you still managed to shaft Gallente ever so slightly CCP. Otherwise it's a nice blog.
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ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company Independent Faction
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Posted - 2009.09.16 21:41:00 -
[406]
Posting in what is the biggest whine-fest I've seen for a long time.
Summary of thread: - Nuuuu. Mah Moros!! - "Superwhat?" "your mom" - Titan whine, counter-whine, cheese 'n' whine, and more (business as usual) - Some ideas on some things that someone mentioned, that drowned in all the whine. - General New-devblog-on-game-changes-and-I-disagree-with-them-ness
~ MED-SEC ~ AND The Blatantly Obvious |
Sharp Feather
Gallente POS Builder Inc. Silent Requiem
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Posted - 2009.09.16 21:44:00 -
[407]
why not do this instead...
-make titan be able to spawn bubble sheilds around their fleet?
-Let them fit 8 capital sized guns?
-make DD a temporary EMP that stunt ships instead of doing damages?
-make a fallout after a DD have been fired... like, damage over time for everyone on grid?
-Lock a gate?
-A super gun anti POS, and nothing else?
-make it so if there is more than 3 titan on grid, they are all turned off because of somekind of interferance?
-Sumon a wormhole that spawn tons of NPC ships that attack everyone?
-create a blackhole that suck everyone inside of it and spawn them randomly around new eden?
-Place a lot and a lot of turrets that fire randomly at every enemy. Which mean, pilot doesnt have control over the turrets, they are like NPCs controled guns. It will look good and titan will be like, constant AOE random damage over time?
-Infinitly spawn fighters?
-make their single target guns STUNTS instead of damage... like an EMP, but for single target.
.........
BRAINSTORM... that was fun.
LOGIC & MORE LOGIC
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Inferno Styx
Caldari Division of Dying Stars
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Posted - 2009.09.16 21:47:00 -
[408]
I think we are forgetting some major considerations here about the Super carriers and the Titans.
1. They require sovereignty to build. They are always built in Sov 4 systems now because they can't be attacked there. With the changes your more then likely going to need to have significant infrastructure investment to begin Titan construction.
A.If it take 5 months to get a system's industrial backbone capable of producing super caps. Then another 5 months of investment to secure the system to were it is semi safe to begin construction. Your looking at several hundred billion in investment before you can even begin to construct a titan. At the same time alliances will probably be losing titans faster then they already are. Titans will slowly become a rare commodity used only when needed. (Timelines obviously not real used for example.)
B. A lot of these changes will make it profitable for alliances to allow outsiders into their systems. More eyes means more people will know if a Titan is under construction. Sell this info to their enemies and a raid results in a dead baby super cap.
2. Super carrier/Mother ship. Actually the new name is technically correct. There is a difference between a Super carrier and a carrier IRL.
Carrier Linkage
Super Carrier Linkage
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Zheren Huli
Ikazuchi and Raikou Syndicate Federation of Active Commonwealth Terrorists
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Posted - 2009.09.16 21:49:00 -
[409]
lets look at this with some current sisi numbers.
first of all not sure if the ddop bonus will still apply but i am going with "rough" numbers anyway for now as nothing is in stone yet.
10% damage per level would be 3m per hit taking 75% resists into account 750k damage per shot
an unskilled unresisted erebus currently has uhm 1.26m hp
2.73m with top skills and erebus with armour links+damnation in fleet
and 3.985mil with three t2 trimarks and slaveset *again as roughly rounded value*
so let us multiply the current sisi version, 3mil base hp by 3, call it 10mil unresisted hp with across the board resists of 75% would give it 40mil ehp.
20 titans *as much as there were on grid as the first carrier got doomsdaied* with ddop 5 would do 60mil raw damage per shot taking the above values in account.
so yeah dead titan in one shot.
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Kai Lae
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.16 21:50:00 -
[410]
I know Battle Tested has already mentioned this, but I want to mention this again: The biggest problems currently with supercaptials in game, other than the way the DD works, is their unsurvivablilty in common capital combat situations. It's not coincidental that nearly all titans are nanofitted and you never see a mothership on the field. Putting either of these on the front lines for any time means death to that ship.
While a HP boost is needed (and coming) unless it's a fair sized one over base capital level (5x for MS, maybe 10-15 for titan) it's simply not enough. I've personally been in a fight where we destroyed wack-a-molle's titan in less than 45 seconds. With the current proposed changes unless you can sustain a tank of sufficient strength to place these ships on the front lines, there's no way you'll ever see them there. If you indeed have added HP of the needed levels, then the current capital reps will be undersized - as already said, rather like using small reps on a cruiser or something similar. While no supercap should be able to tank a dreadfleet by itself, it should not blow up right off. It should be able to tank at least for a few minutes before going down (2-3 I'd say). This is necessary because if it did have support, it'd take time (generally more in high lag situations) to get the remote reps/cap passers on it to allow it to take the incoming damage. I very much think that currently unless this is true MS will still be hugging POSes and no one will use them. The same goes for titans since the cost to building one is so high, except that in titan case they'll just become portable jump bridge arrays and nothing more.
Also, it would be nice if you made hangars on board supercaps bigger. Especially titan hangar seems rather undersized considering what the ship is supposed to be.
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Kai Lae
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.16 21:58:00 -
[411]
Originally by: Zheren Huli
20 titans *as much as there were on grid as the first carrier got doomsdaied*
That was about 5-6 alliances of titans (including some of ours). I'd be willing to say that is a very rare occurrence in eve. More common would be 6-8, that's about the most you'd commonly see considering timezone restrictions.
Still I wonder if that's enough to instakill a mothership. If so, means motherships are going to be still hugging POSes.
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Sybilla Prior
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Posted - 2009.09.16 22:00:00 -
[412]
Was the option considered to make Titans (with aoe DD) simply very exclusive (through some part required for construction only being in the universe a set number of times)? If the option was considered, what where the arguments against it?
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Czix
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.16 22:14:00 -
[413]
A thought on the stemming of Titan proliferation many ppl seem so concerned about:
Remove Titan blueprints from the game for a while (refunding bought ones).
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Apple Boy
Gallente Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.09.16 22:16:00 -
[414]
ok, HOLY ****! thanks to the awesomeness of Zofu and cncfanatics for getting the latest db and making pyfa respectively, I was able to take a look at the HUGE BOOST to titans. To do so, I used the fit below for a PvP fit. I also added in a slave set and armored warfare 5. as of writing this pyfa doesn't have the erebus' 37.5% bonus to armor HP so you need to factor that in. It has 902,344 shields, 5,125,069 armor, and 1,000,000 structure, RAW!!! without the armor HP bonus or any boosts from a loki, that's 28,941,811 effective HP!!!!! so you're looking at around 40mil EHP with bonuses! now for DPS. with the setup below and level 5 skills and a +5% to all turret damage implant you're looking at 10,877DPS!!!!! that's not including the super DDD that can basically instapop a carrier and possibly a dread every 5 minutes since it does 2.5million damage. As it isn't in siege mode, it has better tracking than a megathron with Spike loaded...
so in short, drop 10 erebus' on grid with maybe 15 motherships for rr and fighter bombers and you can clean house of over 100 caps on a battlefield in under 10 minutes, probably without losing a single titan.
[Erebus, **** machine]
Aurora Ominae Dual 1000mm Railgun I, Guardian Antimatter Charge XL Dual 1000mm Railgun I, Guardian Antimatter Charge XL Dual 1000mm Railgun I, Guardian Antimatter Charge XL Dual 1000mm Railgun I, Guardian Antimatter Charge XL Dual 1000mm Railgun I, Guardian Antimatter Charge XL Dual 1000mm Railgun I, Guardian Antimatter Charge XL Ahremen's Modified Large EMP Smartbomb
Selynne's Modified Cap Recharger Selynne's Modified Cap Recharger Selynne's Modified Cap Recharger Selynne's Modified Cap Recharger Selynne's Modified Cap Recharger Selynne's Modified Cap Recharger
Capital Armor Repairer I Damage Control II Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Centum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Large Trimark Armor Pump II Large Trimark Armor Pump II Large Trimark Armor Pump II
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Professor Dumbledore
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.16 22:19:00 -
[415]
you should stick to salvaging wrecks apple boy at least you know how to do that.
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Leaving Eve
Boo Hoo Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 22:21:00 -
[416]
Why don't CCP just castrate every Gallente male at birth, to kill the race off completely?
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Rayth Phaenor
Caldari Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2009.09.16 22:27:00 -
[417]
Originally by: CCP Abathur "If I have an unstoppable super weapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve." - Evil Overlord Rule #40
CCP Abathur, I award you one internets. Oh, and no more doomsday aoe/I win button = happy.
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Saladin
Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.09.16 22:32:00 -
[418]
This will probably be called a horrible idea. But I think a doomsday should get a massive damage boost, and affect all ships in system, not just on grid. It should be strong enough to eliminate even caps. The drawback is that it self destructs the Titan. So it is an awesome weapon that can only ever be used once.
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DaemonBarber
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.09.16 22:38:00 -
[419]
Edited by: DaemonBarber on 16/09/2009 22:38:53
Originally by: Rayth Phaenor
Originally by: CCP Abathur "If I have an unstoppable super weapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve." - Evil Overlord Rule #40
CCP Abathur, I award you one internets. Oh, and no more doomsday aoe/I win button = happy.
Why would a quote from a very old website win an internets?
http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
And the full rule:
40. I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an unstoppable superweapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve.
Still - looking forward to the future of EVE.
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Asohan
Lambent Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.09.16 22:39:00 -
[420]
Originally by: Saladin This will probably be called a horrible idea. But I think a doomsday should get a massive damage boost, and affect all ships in system, not just on grid. It should be strong enough to eliminate even caps. The drawback is that it self destructs the Titan. So it is an awesome weapon that can only ever be used once.
Jihadswarm would love this one. Could only imagine local lol
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ShadowDraqon
The Quantum Company Independent Faction
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Posted - 2009.09.16 22:51:00 -
[421]
Edited by: ShadowDraqon on 16/09/2009 22:51:54
Originally by: DaemonBarber Edited by: DaemonBarber on 16/09/2009 22:38:53
Originally by: Rayth Phaenor
Originally by: CCP Abathur "If I have an unstoppable super weapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve." - Evil Overlord Rule #40
CCP Abathur, I award you one internets. Oh, and no more doomsday aoe/I win button = happy.
Why would a quote from a very old website win an internets?
Because it is awesome?
Edit: top of a page, yay
~ MED-SEC ~ AND The Blatantly Obvious |
FFK
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Posted - 2009.09.16 22:57:00 -
[422]
Don't **** Moros!
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Manfred Rickenbocker
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Posted - 2009.09.16 23:12:00 -
[423]
If you are going to nerf the drone bonus on the Moros to siege only, look into giving it a DRONE CONTROL RANGE BONUS as well. In order to use sentries properly, YOUR SHIP needs to be within 45km of the tower or you cant use ANY sentry, even if its optimal range is much further. Getting bumped does not help this at all. If the Moros is going to be balanced with drones, then it should be able to use them properly. Perhaps this should be a fix for all sentries, but thats another matter. ------------------------ Peace through superior firepower: a guiding principle for uncertain times. |
Inferno Styx
Caldari Division of Dying Stars
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Posted - 2009.09.16 23:14:00 -
[424]
As for the Super cap docking what about a POS module. Super Cap Pilot approaches the "Mooring Array", Activates it and Selects a password. After the password is entered the pilot is ejected and able to go on their way.
The ship is still vulnerable but that is to prevent the "I want a titan for my E-Peen". Don't want to use them don't buy them. Also if you know where your enemies are parking their super caps you can dispatch a dread fleet to try and neutralize the threat.
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Svenjabi Xiang
Reikoku
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Posted - 2009.09.16 23:16:00 -
[425]
I know that there are already a lot of changes being planned for the cap ship line, but I think you'd be better off divorcing that change from Dominion. For instance:
Quote:
We're actually looking at all of the 'short range' XL weaponry, not just the blasters on the Moros.
Quote:
A Dread's primary damage should come from its guns and the drone bonus should be just that, a bonus, not a requirement to achieve some sort of parity with other dreads.
This homogenizes the dread line. Good for planning as an FC. Bad for the game's differences in race. There should be a difference. Gallente, for example, (since that's what I have the most experience with) should maintain its racial 60/40 split damage of weapons to drones. Otherwise, it's just a Rev with lumps and worse tracking. This matters most with the shorter ranged weapon (which you say you're getting rid of) where you need to have the drones to be supply 40% of the damage while you are maneuvering into position to siege. However, in fleets, drone boats are typically discouraged to immediate damage (Amarr/Minmatar) anyway.
If I can make any suggestion at all, it's that you take a bit more care with redesigning the fleet mainstays before implementing. Plan the dread/carrier/MS changes for a later patch when you've had a bit more time to consider them in more detail.
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Zastrow J
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Posted - 2009.09.16 23:17:00 -
[426]
Originally by: Asohan
Originally by: Saladin This will probably be called a horrible idea. But I think a doomsday should get a massive damage boost, and affect all ships in system, not just on grid. It should be strong enough to eliminate even caps. The drawback is that it self destructs the Titan. So it is an awesome weapon that can only ever be used once.
Jihadswarm would love this one. Could only imagine local lol
Aloha Ackbar
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Korthan
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.16 23:48:00 -
[427]
I'd personally like to see the ship scales in this game get fixed along with dozens of other bugs and such that plague the game before adding and changing things in yet ANOTHER attempt to fix stuff that is not broken.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.09.16 23:53:00 -
[428]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist You obviously skimmed both posts. I only said the construction would be visible at POS, and that Titans would use a form of anchoring and reinforced modes for defense. I did not say Titans would anchor themselves at POS.
Further, if you want to make the comparison between POS and a mobile station Titan, at least make the effort to understand why POS are common. It isn't because of POS mechanics, but the stats that are fed into them. That isn't to say I'd even want to borrow the code straight from POS even if it was similar enough to do so. I just blasted CCP for recycling old code if you haven't noticed.
You know, lets pretend for a moment that a single POS costs as much as a Titan.
- can be purchased from market, doesn't need logistics or manpower to construct and definitely doesn't need protection - can be set up and fitted by one person in an hour or two at no cost, where fitting isn't likely to change - one guy can store enough fuel at corporate hangar for months of operation, in one trip - one character is all you need to manage it, without any real skills - two characters to operate the guns - can be taken down and moved in a small 4 hour window - can't be blockaded efficiently as friendlies can drop out of warp inside defensive shield - one dedicated individual can handle a dozen POS themselves
By comparison to what I'm suggesting, it's not even close. You need manpower and logistics for every operation. And since EVE has a tendency to grow in size, logistics become easier, and resources more abundant - it would still be difficult for anyone not at the top of the food chain to protect theirs.
I didn't say Titans would anchor themselves at POSes either. But they're mobile - they'll sit inside POS bubbles regularly, and if you're keeping the CSMA in the game, they can log out in a POS trivially.
And POSes are common because they're useful. You need them to mine and react moon minerals, you use them for all manner of industry, they are at present how you gain and hold sovereignty, including bridges, cyno jammers, and outposts. As long as the benefit from building one outweighs the cost, it'll get built. If POSes cost 100 mil/day for fuel, there'd be fewer, if they cost 100k/day, there'd be more. But if it has use exceeding cost, it'll get built by someone eventually. For that matter, if something is cool enough, just existing is considered sufficient use by some players(like I said, there's no other reason why so many Moms keep getting built).
I can't criticize you in too much detail without seeing numbers that you obviously don't have(what with this being comment-thread theorycrafting). But I will say that your entire approach feels totally wrong to me. Your goal is to make titans rare, to the point where you would undo centuries of line time by reprocessing every titan in the game to start with, but you can't get there from here. If it's worth building, everyone who is anyone will build one, or more if more are useful. If it's not worth building, you've just turned a pretty cool concept into a failboat and a white elephant, something that is nothing more than a funny little toy for people with more money than brains. I don't know what role you want your Titans to have, or what use you expect them to be to a big alliance, but I can't imagine anything meeting your design goals and still being a worthwhile addition to Eve.
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Vee Zee
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Posted - 2009.09.17 00:43:00 -
[429]
Supercarrier is a horrible name and the moros nerf is unnecessary.
At the very least, increase the control and scoop range then increase the drone dmg bonus to make the moros' DPS *above* the other dreads, since that portion of its DPS is destroyable.
I can't really comment on the Titan changes, but it seems to me insta popping super caps is going to make a lot of people really angry. Overall, these all seem like pretty poor changes and not well thought out.
I agree with the others, do CCP employees even play this game?
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pashared
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Posted - 2009.09.17 00:49:00 -
[430]
I love gall, I love drones. it was a very sad day when they nerfed the myrm.
I think they are making gall undesirable to play, becasue drones cause lag, so less gall players = less drones = less lag.
but im paranoid conspiracy theorist.
also no matter how many HP they give a titan nothing will help its survial if its a primary. they will die the same after hp boost, its just the nature of war fair.
and my last point stop trying to make ships equal. weapons are never equal from army to army. however keeping unique abilites for each ship is important. and balance should be done from race to race not ship to ship.
my 2 isk
~pash
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Cinori Aluben
Minmatar The Salvaged
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Posted - 2009.09.17 00:53:00 -
[431]
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ___________ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ./ It's a trap!\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _,,,--~~~~~~~~--,_ . . . . . .\ ._________/ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,-' : : : :::: :::: :: : : : : :¦ '-, . \/. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .,-' :: : : :::: :::: :::: :::: : : :o : '-, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,-' :: ::: :: : : :: :::: :::: :: : : : : :O '-, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .,-' : :: :: :: :: :: : : : : : , : : :¦ :::: :::: ::'; . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .,-' / / : :: :: :: :: : : :::: :::-, ;; ;; ;; ;; ;; ;; ;\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . /,-',' :: : : : : : : : : :: :: :: : '-, ;; ;; ;; ;; ;; ;;| . . . . . . . . . . . . . /,',-' :: :: :: :: :: :: :: : ::_,-~~,_'-, ;; ;; ;; ;; | . . . . . . . . . . . . . _/ :,' :/ :: :: :: : : :: :: _,-'/ : ,-';'-'''''~-, ;; ;; ;;,' . . . . . . . . . . . ,-' / : : : : : : ,-''' : : :,--'' :|| /,-'-'--'''__,''' \ ;; ;,-' . . . . . . . . . . . \ :/,, : : : _,-' --,,_ : : \ :\ ||/ /,-'-'x### ::\ \ ;;/ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \/ /---'''' : \ #\ : :\ : : \ :\ \| | : (O##¦ : :/ /-'' . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . /,'____ : :\ '-#\ : \, : :\ :\ \ \ : '-,___,-',-`-,, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ' ) : : : :''''--,,--,,,,,,» \ \ :: ::--,,_''-,,'''» :'- :'-, . . . . . . . . . . . . . .) : : : : : : ,, : ''''~~~~' \ :: :: :: :'''''» :: ,-' :,/\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\,/ /|\\| | :/ / : : : : : : : ,'-, :: :: :: :: ::,--'' :,-' \ \ . . . . . . . . . . . .\\'|\\ \|/ '/ / :: :_--,, : , | )'; :: :: :: :,-'' : ,-' : : :\ \, . . . . . . . . . ./» :| \ |\ : |/\ :: ::----, :\/ :|/ :: :: ,-'' : :,-' : : : : : : ''-,,_ . . . . . . ..| : : :/ ''-(, :: :: :: '''''~,,,,,'' :: ,-'' : :,-' : : : : : : : : :,-'''\\ . . . ,-' : : : | : : '') : : :»''''~-,: : ,--''' : :,-'' : : : : : : : : : ,-' :»'''''-,_ . ./ : : : : :'-, :: | :: :: :: _,,-''''» : ,--'' : : : : : : : : : : : / : : : : : : :''-, / : : : : : -, :»'''''''''''» : : _,,-~'' : : : : : : : : : : : : : :| : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :»''~~~~~~''' : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : | : : : : : : : : :
You definitely did say insert Admiral Ackbar quotes...
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Serj Darek
Minmatar Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2009.09.17 00:55:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Cinori Aluben . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ___________ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ./ It's a tarp!\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _,,,--~~~~~~~~--,_ . . . . . .\ ._________/ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,-' : : : :::: :::: :: : : : : :¦ '-, . \/. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .,-' :: : : :::: :::: :::: :::: : : :o : '-, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,-' :: ::: :: : : :: :::: :::: :: : : : : :O '-, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .,-' : :: :: :: :: :: : : : : : , : : :¦ :::: :::: ::'; . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .,-' / / : :: :: :: :: : : :::: :::-, ;; ;; ;; ;; ;; ;; ;\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . /,-',' :: : : : : : : : : :: :: :: : '-, ;; ;; ;; ;; ;; ;;| . . . . . . . . . . . . . /,',-' :: :: :: :: :: :: :: : ::_,-~~,_'-, ;; ;; ;; ;; | . . . . . . . . . . . . . _/ :,' :/ :: :: :: : : :: :: _,-'/ : ,-';'-'''''~-, ;; ;; ;;,' . . . . . . . . . . . ,-' / : : : : : : ,-''' : : :,--'' :|| /,-'-'--'''__,''' \ ;; ;,-' . . . . . . . . . . . \ :/,, : : : _,-' --,,_ : : \ :\ ||/ /,-'-'x### ::\ \ ;;/ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \/ /---'''' : \ #\ : :\ : : \ :\ \| | : (O##¦ : :/ /-'' . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . /,'____ : :\ '-#\ : \, : :\ :\ \ \ : '-,___,-',-`-,, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ' ) : : : :''''--,,--,,,,,,» \ \ :: ::--,,_''-,,'''» :'- :'-, . . . . . . . . . . . . . .) : : : : : : ,, : ''''~~~~' \ :: :: :: :'''''» :: ,-' :,/\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . .\,/ /|\\| | :/ / : : : : : : : ,'-, :: :: :: :: ::,--'' :,-' \ \ . . . . . . . . . . . .\\'|\\ \|/ '/ / :: :_--,, : , | )'; :: :: :: :,-'' : ,-' : : :\ \, . . . . . . . . . ./» :| \ |\ : |/\ :: ::----, :\/ :|/ :: :: ,-'' : :,-' : : : : : : ''-,,_ . . . . . . ..| : : :/ ''-(, :: :: :: '''''~,,,,,'' :: ,-'' : :,-' : : : : : : : : :,-'''\\ . . . ,-' : : : | : : '') : : :»''''~-,: : ,--''' : :,-'' : : : : : : : : : ,-' :»'''''-,_ . ./ : : : : :'-, :: | :: :: :: _,,-''''» : ,--'' : : : : : : : : : : : / : : : : : : :''-, / : : : : : -, :»'''''''''''» : : _,,-~'' : : : : : : : : : : : : : :| : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :»''~~~~~~''' : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : | : : : : : : : : :
You definitely did say insert Admiral Ackbar quotes...
Fixed
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Armadaus Baldwin
Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.17 02:41:00 -
[433]
Edited by: Armadaus Baldwin on 17/09/2009 02:42:38 Gentles at CCP,
While testing the "SuperCarrier" (more in specific, the Fighter Bombers), I and a couple others noticed a glaring problem that I'm surprised passed your QC.
Not only do the bombers easily fall prey to Smartbombs, much in the fashion of fighters... But so do their Torps. Making them virtually useless against other Carriers/SuperCarriers and the average Titan.
So while the idea is cool, it's current iteration is less than useful. My understanding, is the intent is to once again bring "Motherships" ala the new SuperCarrier name back to the front line. Risk V Usefulness is still amazingly unbalanced in this iteration.
Please take some time into looking into increasing the Midget Torpedo hitpoints, or find some magical alloy that makes them immune to Area of Effect weapons in general. (Are either of these possible, or even ideas being tossed around at this stage?)
I must say, I'm quite happy with the 2-3 months advance testing time so we can discuss these issues. I still have reservations, quite strongly, against the new Titan weapon... but it's too early to call. Also, I too, would like to encourage the production of T2 Capital Reps, or T2 Capital Remote Reps.
In honor of 02-05-09, and our new Goon Overlords.
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Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.09.17 03:00:00 -
[434]
Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 17/09/2009 03:01:51 CCP, I propose this for the new super-weapon graphical effects: http://m-devillers.ruhosting.nl/titans_imageshack.html ----
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Gaogan
Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.09.17 03:11:00 -
[435]
Edited by: Gaogan on 17/09/2009 03:12:57
Originally by: Zastrow J
here's why the Moros sucks: the 1000mm railguns do less damage than other dread turrets. This lower dps is supposed to be offset by the drone damage bonus, but drones can be popped and have short range. HOWEVER, the drone damage bonus was pretty cool out of siege because you could own dictors or any subcap with drones. Without the option to bone subcaps out of siege the moros loses its versatility and becomes functionally the same as the other dreads except doing less dps and being handicapped by drones
Much to my dismay, I must agree with the Goon. Not only does this nerf completely break the main feature of the moros highlighted in its description, but it makes it worse than the revelation in all respects. If you are going to nerf the drones, then take away the drone bonus entirely and change it to a damage bonus on the guns so they come up to par compared to the other dread guns. And FFS, FIX THE CAPITAL BLASTERS.
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: Emeline Cabernet Can you assign fighter bombers to other ships like regular fighters?
Good question! No.
Whoa whoa whoa! If you could delgate them to a small bs fleet then that might actually give them the power to knock down sieged dreads. If you can't delegate them, then why bother making them drones in the first place? If it has to be on the field to use these fighter bombers, that let it do dread like damage, why not just use a dread? It seems to me you are trying to turn motherships into dreads with an inferior weapons system ( drones, as they can be easily killed ).
And why take away the clone vat and triage module? They aren't hardly used as it is, but would leaving them on lead to it being overpowered? Really? Come on.
Leave the capital killing to dreads. Fix motherships by allowing them to finally fulfill their intended role. Fix clone vat bays to be useable, and double their SMA size so they can actually be used as mobile respawn/refitting stations for sub caps.
Originally by: Verys
It's too bad carriers will remain unchanged and I would like to see a small boost to carriers, make their drones repair themselves within their bays. It's odd that a massive ship with launching bays doesn't have a repair bay for the ships they are carrying unless they go outside.
Repairing them is not the problem; they die almost instantly. A vagabond can one shot them. Two years ago they were fearsome things that could melt a bs quickly. These days they are little or no threat to a T2 fitted and rigged BS, and are EASILY killed. They need about triple the HP they have now and maybe 20% more damage.
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SephiriotH
LIGHTS 0UT Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.17 03:34:00 -
[436]
Armadaus is right. HP boost for titans/ms will not save them from dread's focus fire. Just imagine the normal cap fleet battle, such as 50 dreads + titan vs 60 dreads. Titan will die for sure. And the loss of it will be as much as all 50 dreads dead. Also I would like to bring to your notice an ammount of capitals the alliances can bring into battle - just look to the last epic fight of aaa+atlas vs others...was it ~130+ cap wecks left? And to put a cherry on top I will reveal a small "hint" - the only reason for this was just a hint "we WILL kill a titan if it appears". Do you still think that a HP boost can couple ?:}
And some other things: 1. Shooting once and emm...reading a book for next 5 minutes(!) is at least 5 times less cool then shooting 5 times in 5 minutes for same damage.
2. Someone suggested that titan's super-laser have to bring the ship to 0 hp immedeatly no matter of tanking/resistances etc... While the idea is good it might not work in fleet battles. To clearify I'll give you an example of my own expirience - C-J6MT siege.RA was flying a gang of RR battleships vs ~50 dread/carriers of ASCN/LV/V. My scorpion was hit so bad that I had a negative ammount of structure. However in no time I was RRepped of armor and shield STILL having a negative amount of structure. Yeah there was a laaaag... I was able to dock in my scorpion and repair it with station services to full HP and joined the battle again. SO, to simplify - if I titan is dealing a killing shot that should NOT invlove any dmg calculations, otherwise the things will happen at laggy invironment which are always present at fleet battles (especially at spontaneous, like the last epic cap battle, nobody was actually thinking it going to happen and node was not reinforced).
3. Spending a cap on firing super-laser..is doubtfull. Really, this might prevent a titan from leaving the battle (jumping out) which is a good thing after all, but might impair the tanking abilities severely. And you CANT rely on carrier pilots to boost your cap at major fleet battles (especially if node is not reinforced) as things of "i'm emergency warping" "i see no one" "I cant lock" "modules are refusing to activate" happens here and there often.
4. Yeah, we need capital t2 modules. Really. Eve evolved very much since their introduction. At 2007 fleet 200+ of battleship was an immense force few allainces could amass. And now with an angegments of 600+ in local are not rare. As a capital pilot I dont like the feeling that sub-capitals are evolving in their armaments (fkn'ell they got t3 already!) while capitals are sticking to the technology of last century...
P.S. I beg my pardon for grammar mistakes. :}
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Yon Krum
The Knights Templar R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2009.09.17 04:06:00 -
[437]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: Moros Champions I'm going to train Amarr now!
We're well aware of the differences. The issue is that the Moros was doing an average of three times the out of siege damage over the other dreads. A max skilled Moros does over 1100 DPS with 5x Ogre II's and over 900 DPS with 5x Bouncer II's. This is Carrier level damage from regular drones. A Dread's primary damage should come from its guns and the drone bonus should be just that, a bonus, not a requirement to achieve some sort of parity with other dreads.
Um... perhaps this is too obvious, but why not then just give the Moros an out-of-siege drone bonus that reduces the damage to, say 40-45% of current levels? Thereby retaining its usefulness as the subcapital swatter of the capfleet, but not rivaling the carriers.
Quote:
We've had a lot of back and forth on this one and it's not completely out the window. However, the question is, aside from just boosting the repair rate or creating new ones, just how much DPS should a supercap be able to solo tank? This is a very subjective and situational argument because one thing we do not want to see is Supercarriers and Titans able to do just dominate a battlefield on their own. Ships such as these should require teamwork and the support of other classes to be utilized to their full potential.
Well, capital fights are basically pure math, unfortunately. You get stuck in siege and either have enough to burn down the enemy, or you don't. The only real decision is whether or not to "go green".
Based on the elements of your design, it seems you'd like Titans to stay on the field for the duration of the fight, rather than having them warp in and out every 30 seconds (particularly since everyone and their mother will be trying to tackle...). You have two ways of going about this:
1) Decide how many dreads worth of dps it will tank solo, for how long.
2) Decide how many carriers (in triage?) you need to make it tank/scale with the enemy fleet while it kills caps.
Suggestion: give Titans a bonus to all incoming remote-repping, so they are designed to work with a small cloud of either carriers or logistics.
Another point of consideration: that 5m wait time means you get at most 2 shots off before the enemy dread fleet redeploys after exiting siege (assuming you're doing better, of course). Two enemy dreads down seems like a bit of a low payoff from bringing the Titan....
Quote:
Originally by: Supercarrier Name Haters I hate this but have no other suggestions.
The terminology is quite fitting in that the class is an advanced form of... Carriers. The name of Mothership has always been misleading, evoking images of traveling civilizations or some grand exploration vessel, which these ships are not. Even their aesthetic shape suggests ships of war and conflict. If you ever see 'Motherships' again in EVE, they will actually look and function like they should be wearing the name.
Try "Fleet Carrier" or just about anything else that is evocative. "Super" is like calling it "AwesomeCarrier"--it's just lame, even if that is technically the designation for the Nimitz-class and other advanced RL ships.
--Krum
--Krum |
Aion Amarra
Minmatar Really Nice And Laidback Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.17 05:42:00 -
[438]
Originally by: John Grimm Mother-ships => Super Carriers NOT COOL! How about Carriers => Escort Carriers and Mother-ships => Fleet Carriers.
First time in ages that I'm doing this, and I'd prefer not to, but:
mf-ing /SIGNED
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Letifer Deus
Bannable Offense. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.09.17 06:09:00 -
[439]
Edited by: Letifer Deus on 17/09/2009 06:10:55
Originally by: Yon Krum
Try "Fleet Carrier" or just about anything else that is evocative. "Super" is like calling it "AwesomeCarrier"--it's just lame, even if that is technically the designation for the Nimitz-class and other advanced RL ships.
Fleet carrier is dumb/boring, and super is not the same as awesome. The former implies great(er) power/abilities while the latter simply means it's impressive and noone with any sense would really argue "supercarrier" is as lame/cheesy as "awesomecarrier". In the end, though, does it really matter? heavy assault ships are still called HACs. "supercarriers" will likely still be called moms. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!" |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.09.17 06:19:00 -
[440]
As you've finally killed off Motherships and are now calling them some ridiculous name, isn't it time you allowed them to dock? Plus what about all those that trained the clone bay skill, do we get those skill points reassigned? (fat chance I guess)
If you do insist on nerfing the Moros, at least sort out the scooping of sentries, or give them the ability to return under their own power.
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cheese monkey
Bannable Offense.
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Posted - 2009.09.17 08:37:00 -
[441]
!&ś*%ing brilliant idea, i might actually buy a titan now!!!
to all the haters >>> cry me a river you poor little rich titan owners. so long as they do like a 1m hp damage its an amazing weapon, and having 3-4 titans makes u even more dangerous tbh.
... again to all the whiners... cry away, let me taste ur tears!!
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Vladimir Nabokov
Rapid Response Rescue and Repair
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Posted - 2009.09.17 09:20:00 -
[442]
Edited by: Vladimir Nabokov on 17/09/2009 09:22:48 Regarding the titan super weapon, one possible way to discourage multiple titans spamming the superweapon is to require a 100% capacitor to fire, and drop the capacitor to 0% upon firing. Balance it in such a way that a single titan would require a logistics support fleet of energy transfer carriers in order to sustain a useful rate of fire. With this kind of limitation, the addition of multiple titans to a fleet becomes progressively more difficult as each additional titan would require another set of logistics to help it with remote capacitor.
EDIT: this also helps make use of the remote ecm module, as it could be used to disrupt the logistics support of the enemy titan, slowing down its rate of fire.
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Aylara
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Posted - 2009.09.17 09:50:00 -
[443]
If you want the carriers to be the only capital ship capable to take out subcap ships, how are you going to do it? Boost fighters tracking, speed and make them have larger orbits? Or by giving the carrier a boost to drone damage or control range?
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J'Rela
Black Lotus Heavy Industries Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.09.17 10:04:00 -
[444]
Having faced Titans in battle, flown alongside them, and piloted one myself, I think I might have a bit to say about Titans, and especially the changes being made to them and the goals CCP has in mind.
The most important problem with the Titan is that you never see it. That's a shame, considering how big and pretty they are, but there's a reason for it.
Titans rarely leave POS shields. Titans don't linger on the battlefield. Titans almost universally mount cloaking devices and usually have a (number of) "safe" cyno(s) on standby.
Why is that?
It's been suggested that the problem is that those pesky Titans are allowed to leave. We should lock down their drives if they dare to engage in combat so that they can be more readily destroyed, right? right?
Wrong.
The problem is actually that it's possible--easy, rather-- to stop them from leaving. The problem is that their only refuge is in escape. The problem is that if they engage the enemy there is a very real chance they will die, and that there will be nothing that the pilot can do to prevent it. Making them self-immobilising and drastically repurposing their primary weapon will only exacerbate this problem.
Instead of players worrying about three or ten or twenty Titans arriving on the battlefield, we will face a situation where there may be none. This would be a pity. A lot of hard work went into creating the Titan art, and to building the ships in game. A solution that makes them even more virtually unplayable than they are now is unacceptable.
So, what's the solution?
It isn't to nerf the Titan further. Don't get me wrong, I love the Death Ray idea and that's some sweet concept art, but replacing the single unique combat function the Titan has with something that can actually be done by a sufficiently large fleet of Battleships does not thrill me, and will not be sufficient to entice most Titan pilots into action.
There are problems with Doomsday Devices. They're not supposed to be anti-capital weapons, but we are reaching a threshold where they may be usable in that way. There are solutions to that without drastically repurposing the device. For example, you could limit the effects of repeated firing. Crank up the damage, but make them miserable against capital ships by locking out additional shots on the grid for several minutes. While we're at it, make them scriptable for that focused-fire effect, but don't lock out the Titan's drive.
Do you know why many Titans are nano-fit? Why nearly all Titans mount a cloaking device? Why Titans never stay on-grid after a shot?
They can't take the heat, so they have no choice but to get out of the kitchen. Titans need a respectable tank, and I don't mean "pretty great for a battleship unless it's supported," I mean "respectable for a ship that's on a publicly-posted hit list with less than three hundred entries." If it can't tank a dozen siege-mode dreads, it isn't close.
If you give them that tank, Titan pilots suddenly have options. Give them secondary weapons (i.e. Capital guns with siege-dread like effectiveness) with solid DPS and now they have a reason to stick around, perhaps to risk the enemy forming and dropping a fleet that could defeat them. A Titan could follow its own doomsday device by engaging nearby damaged subcapitals and quickly destroying them, could form a viable part of an attack force against a POS, Station, or (insert new Dominion Shootable here,) and need not fear its pilot having no options but to watch the agonizing destruction of their massive glass phallus.
You'd actually see more Titans dying this way, not less. And they'd go down the way they deserve to go down -- kicking and screaming in epic battles against overwhelming odds, not silently dying because their agression timer hadn't expired when the pilot logged out.
You want to see something used? Expand it's uses.
End of Line. ---- If violence never solves anything, you're not using enough.
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Arzal
omen.
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Posted - 2009.09.17 10:30:00 -
[445]
Nice Changes
Just one question, the moms/SC's are they goign to have the same space for fighters/fighter bombers? as certain hulls can't fit 2 wings. does that mean that you will have to choose between a wing of one or the other? or will the bays allow us to have a wing of each and a full complument of drones (not talking 1500 hob IIs here, i mean within reason). Even then you don't get any space for spairs, which you do tend to loose in battles...
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Commander Keyes
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Posted - 2009.09.17 10:41:00 -
[446]
What is being over looked imo is the Jump Range of the SuperCarriers. They need to be on par with the rest of the cap fleet you are flying with. Before it wasnt a big deal because they were not used. However if ccp wants them to be used now they need to be able to travel with the dreads and carriers. IE INCREASE THE JUMP RANGE! ty
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Camdim
Caldari Blood and Steel Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.09.17 11:22:00 -
[447]
What needs to happen to make carriers a very good weapon is to make it a ship that can carry other pilots into battle.
The fighters need to be changed into ships that are smaller then a frigate but easy in skills to pick up and fly them.
This allows for very new pilots to jump into a fighter and be useful from day one on the 0.0 battlefield.
Carriers then load up these pilots in their fighters or torpedo bombers and jump from one area to another then deploy their fighters/bombers.
Carriers should be the central focus of any cap fleet. With dreds and titans in support of these ships with smaller ships there as well to protect these assets.
You can look at the current military doctrines in use by modern navies in the world today for some idea of what I mean. Carriers project the fire power of a nation across vast distances. They do this by putting air power in an area and then allow for transports and other ship types to show up and apply their power.
The technical issue I have heard that stops this from happening is putting multiple pilots in one ship. I am not sure how this is an issue but some thoughts to fixing this is have the pilot go into a suspended animation mode till his ship is deployed. This would be like if the pilot was docked. But the carrier is a mobile station. So as the carrier moves so does the player. Once the carrier reaches its destination and launches the pilot the pilot undocks in his fighter/bomber and is ready to fight.
Doing the above would be a wonderful way to give newer players access to 0.0 alliances and be useful in those alliances from day one. And would make a more reasonable upgrade path fighter/fighter bomber > frigate > destroyer >etc. It would also give more use to the destroyer hull as that ship would be well suited to a point defense role to stop fighters/fighter bombers.
For future upgrades and the title "Mother ship" you could look at using the same principles above but allow the ship to dock not only fighters but frigates and destroyers as well.
You could setup both fighters and fighter-bombers with one med high slot for the fighter and one large high slot for the fighter-bomber, mwd built in to the ship one med slot or one low slot. This would give some variety to how you fit the fighter or fighter bomber and how it can be used. They would cost less to build then a frigate and could even be used as defensive forces for control points or even station defense.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.17 11:52:00 -
[448]
Idea for an infrastructure upgrade to keep people happy:
--------------- Expanded Docking Facilities - This system's outpost has been upgraded with more powerful tractor beams, upgtraded traffic control software, and bays to accomodate much larger craft than are normally possible.
If an outpost has the Expanded Docking Facilities infrastructure upgrade, pilots may dock super-capital class vessels in that outpost.
Prerequisites: the alliance must have 2 other outposts present in the same constellation. No more than one outpost per constellation may be given this upgrade. ----------------
Is this a reasonable compromise?
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Sylvaen
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Posted - 2009.09.17 12:04:00 -
[449]
I've trained Gallente loyaly for almost 2 years now.
With the Moros nerf it appears the only way I can make a strong contribution to my corp/alliance is to cross train to Amarr. Several of my corp mates have now started that process.
Surly there is some room for unusual roles within a ship class, let's retain some individuality and stop making Amarr the only option.
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Cardiana
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Posted - 2009.09.17 12:22:00 -
[450]
way to go ccp. just please dont forbid any carrier pilots to have drones with the new specialised fighter bays. drones are still important on a carrier. taking that away would not benefit eve. limiting the amount maybe yes but not taking away.
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Freidrich Nietchize
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.09.17 12:25:00 -
[451]
from http://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/09/09/17/0245212/Sony-To-Encase-Half-the-Star-Wars-Galaxies-Servers-In-Carbonite
"Sony is apparently merging out of existence half its Star Wars: Galaxies servers. In spite of a number of innovative features (three health bars, choreograph-able dancing, music you can coordinate between several players, 'your own R2 unit and 3PO,' programmable droids, and so on), a complete overhaul of the combat system, designed to simplify it and make it more action-oriented, actually drove away more people than it attracted. It soon thereafter retired to that great, Sony one-fee-for-all stable of aging and also-rans in the sky. Still on life support, it was preceded in death by Sony foster brother The Matrix Online."
one lesson here - think before you act ================================================ 00:59:14 Notify The Guardian Veteran is too far away, you need to be within 48400.0 meters of it but are actually 57737.3598289 meters away.
WHAT?! |
Spacerunner 3000
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Posted - 2009.09.17 12:33:00 -
[452]
Originally by: Freidrich Nietchize from http://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/09/09/17/0245212/Sony-To-Encase-Half-the-Star-Wars-Galaxies-Servers-In-Carbonite
one lesson here - think before you act
If you are somehow indicating that the upcomming changes will at all make people leave.... that's laughable. Most everyone has already stated how they welcome the changes.. and even big 0.0 alliances like teh goons say they welcome the Titan nerf. If there was ever a patch that would make someone leave this game, it would have been the Nano-nerf, or the Ghost-training removal.
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Freidrich Nietchize
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.09.17 12:45:00 -
[453]
Originally by: Spacerunner 3000
If you are somehow indicating that the upcomming changes will at all make people leave.... that's laughable. Most everyone has already stated how they welcome the changes.. and even big 0.0 alliances like teh goons say they welcome the Titan nerf. If there was ever a patch that would make someone leave this game, it would have been the Nano-nerf, or the Ghost-training removal.
No, that's not what I'm saying. A lot of changes CCP has made and plan to make are good. CCP also seems to have more interest in what the playerbase whats out of the game. This gives them a huge advantage over other MMOs (even before you consider the whole emergence bit)
However, most (if not all MMOs) fade with time. Constantly revamping the game and attracting new players is a colossally difficult task. Over time, many MMOs end up doing more harm to themselves than good. That is what I'm trying to illustrate.
The major hope of this initial post and subsequent discussion is that rather than CCP's attitude (at least as it seems to be in some of these blogs) of "we're doing this, if you don't like it, sucks to be you", it seems like they could get quite a bit more out of "this is what we'd like to do, what do you guys think?" Lots of replies come in, they get a feel for the full impact of the change from the players' perspective and possibly even ideas on how to flesh out their ideas better. I'm not saying they don't do this and I haven't been around long enough to say they don't do this but I get the impression from a number of posts in these blogs that CCP and the players would be happier if they came out with these blogs a bit earlier and got the community more involved with the direction the game is going. ================================================ 00:59:14 Notify The Guardian Veteran is too far away, you need to be within 48400.0 meters of it but are actually 57737.3598289 meters away.
WHAT?! |
Pnuka
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.17 13:12:00 -
[454]
Originally by: Freidrich Nietchize I'm not saying they don't do this and I haven't been around long enough to say they don't do this but I get the impression from a number of posts in these blogs that CCP and the players would be happier if they came out with these blogs a bit earlier and got the community more involved with the direction the game is going.
Two years ago, changes this vast would have probably broke the internet then patched in anyway. You have CSM's now able to help guide everything along, and point out they already mentioned glaring issues (moros) and CCP saying it will be looked at. It's like night and day.
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SXYGeeK
Gallente Interstellar Planetary KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.17 16:41:00 -
[455]
Originally by: Freidrich Nietchize from "a complete overhaul of the combat system, designed to simplify it and make it more action-oriented, actually drove away more people than it attracted. " one lesson here - think before you act
As one of the folks who played SWG from CB on through the CU and rage quite with the NPE I can tell you that the changes they are making to EVE for the dominion expansion will ultimately affect a small percentage of players in a game changing way. It may provide some opportunities to HighSec players perhaps, but it wonĘt force them to change their game. What Sony did to SWG with the NPE was a complete overhaul of the characters, interface, and play style, that affected everyone without option.
Imaging if EVE where to suddenly say we no longer view our ships with a camera from the outside, but from in the ****pit. That we no longer have an overview and target locks, we will aim and fire on ships manually like a FPS game. And that all of our skills would be wiped, skill training removed, certifications would determine who could use what and you earned them by killing ships and gaining XP to level up in a simple 1 to 100 level system. You would get some credit for your existing Skill points to convert to the level system.
Those are the kinds of game changing changes CCP would have to make to be comparable to SONY.
p.s. I have a lot of hatred in my heart still for Sony, CCP I love like my mother compared to Sony.
-We So SeXy |
Vile rat
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.17 18:54:00 -
[456]
Ultimately I think the Titan DD change is great but mostly because you've managed to break the Doomsday concept even more than it was originally and we're in the best position to benefit from abusing the hell out of it.
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Mookuh
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2009.09.17 20:19:00 -
[457]
Quote: "Dreadnaughts
The heavy hitters of New Eden will continue in their role as the primary anti-structure and anti-capital ship in EVE."
So, Dreads will continue to be the premier anti-capital ship of new Eden, huh?
1. There will be less POSes to shoot at, and less need to shoot at them. So unless the Sov-Claimers or Claim-Disruptors have very, very large amout of HPs (which I doubt, given that CCP wanted to get rid of the siege-borefests), there will be less need to shoot structure to begin with. Also, will the new Titan DD work against structure?
2. Titans will be able to insta-pop Dreads (judging by the post), making them not only less useful, but also very vulnurable if they're brought to the field at all. Because no titan would use their DD on anything less than a Dread or carrier.
3. "Premier anti-capital ship"... well, a Mothershipupercarrier fielding Fighter bombers will, according to someone who tested it in another threat, deal between 10k and 12k DPS, which is about 3 Phoenixes worth of damage... without the need to siege them. Titans get the ability to insta-pop capitals, and apparently a boost to their capital weapons systems aswell, so it sounds like they too will be shooting caps.
So, my questions: Why will the Dread remain the premier anti-capital ship of EVE when both titans and motherships get their ability to harm other capitals significantly increased?
Will the new Sov-claim-thingies remain some sort of shields that prevents Fighter-Bombers from hitting them? Or will they be able to lay down their double-tripple Dread DPS on a POS? Without the need to siege, or use ammo.
------------------------------------------------
Terry 'Mookuh' Hijakosji CAIN Public Relations |
RedSplat
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Posted - 2009.09.17 20:56:00 -
[458]
Originally by: Mookuh Stuff about Titans and MS obsoleting dreads
FYI Titans are capable of melting Dreads with XL weapons alone.
Aside from that, i'm all in support of Titans obsoleting dread given the difference in isk.
As for the Nyx, i hope that CCP have that bonus apply to fighter only and not fighter bombers.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
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Gyle
Caldari Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.17 21:12:00 -
[459]
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Know what is better than a capital ship? How about special modified weapons used to blow up other capital ships? I don't know about you but I am already excited over this idea. Thanks to CCP Abathur we have a new dev blog about some of the changes to capital ships coming in Dominion.
ugh! Seriously man. Does anyone at CCP play their game any more? There is a reason motherships dont get used in cap fights and it isn't because they don't do enough damage. And there is a reason titans evolved into the nano smartbomb machines they are.
In short neither of them can tank. oh sure they can tank if they were going up against a dread or two. But that isn't the scenario they get used in... why? because ccp your game is so long standing that groups of hundreds of players can be summoned in an instant from any major alliance to hop into their dreadnoughts and take down a super cap and you want to encourage these ships to go into combat?
Heres a link of what happens when a titan gets tackled.
Titan getting pwned in under a minute
Guess what Devs a "modest" hitpoint increase aint going to do it.
So you guys gonna let Titans destroy single targets in one hit? Whoop! so tell me you are gonna alter their scan res so it doesn't take 30 secs to lock a BS. And tell me you can fire it over and over again with no cost in topes and a cool down of 10 seconds. and tell me its going to get an armour or shield rep/boost bonus four times that of a dread in siege then maybe just maybe your idea wouldn't be a complete wast of time but atm as its tosh.
But then you guys kinda already know that or you wouldn't have ended with the sentence "The future of this ship class is not set in stone and as EVE continues to evolve they may find even more roles to play."
IE you have no idea what you are doing with it and this is just a stop gap while you try and figure out what you will do next. Of course unlike the last time A dev proposed ludicrous cap changes (Zulupark carriers and motherships 07 debacle, sorry for naming and shaming) this time you wont get a huge outpouring of civil unrest because titans make up a relativity small percentage of the player base compared to carrier pilots. But never the less that doesn't change the fact that it was CCP that made them broke in the first place.
Honestly i don't believe they can be fixed or ever be made useful without upsetting the masses (something that CCP is exceptionally paranoid about). The best course of action is to remove the ships from the game and compensate the pilots.
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Disv
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Posted - 2009.09.17 21:32:00 -
[460]
Why the hell should the Drone bonus be applied only when in siege?! So your telling me that a Moros should only compete with another Dread due to External easily Destroyable elements??????. Either keep it exactly the way it is or completely remove the drone bonus and buff Rails/Blasters so its on Par with the Revelation.
And this new Uber weapon for Titans? How do you possibly think that will work? IF it one hits another capital (no matter the fitting?!??!?!!?!?) then surely thats Over Powering it to the max. Some Poor Pilot sees his Dreadnaught Get Targetted, Well whats the bloody point in that, some guys Pride and joy Just got OMGWTFBBQPWNED in a split second. AND YET! if the Titan doesnt destroy the target, whats the point in the weapon in the first place. At least with DD you have a Chance of survival, Its the Last Say in Factional Warfare and everyone has adapted to the fact that if you enter an Alliances space that are Titan Capable you could be on the recieving end of a Titan's Fart. Your encouraging more blobbage and that is by no means a good thing. Your simply Screwing things up for everyone and you are too blind to see it, do you even play this game? or do you just listen to all the annoying whinging n00bs who have been on the recieving end of a whupping.
Add more content, dont destroy what is already working. Leave Doomsday and leave Moros alone you Nerf happy tards.
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HoshinoRuri
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Posted - 2009.09.17 21:39:00 -
[461]
One of the biggest thing me and several other MS capable pilots want to know is since they are being renamed supercarriers, which is appropriate cause of their new role, is will they be dockable now. I have not seen the devs address this at all. I saw plenty of info on the moros and on the titan but hardly anything on the super carriers, and unfortunately i think that isn't right. So please give us a little more intel on this feature because as it is now MS are used by alts since those of us that can buy them don't because we can't secure them that well. This is something that really needs to be looked at. Another thing is capital reppers need some work.
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Yunii
Gallente Black Serpent Technologies Atropos.
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Posted - 2009.09.17 21:53:00 -
[462]
Lower the drone bonus on the Moros, don't just take it away(without A LOT of testing). Make the sentries have a 100m/s "keep in recall range speed" so we can't be bumped off them. Bonus only to dreads??
But if you must take it away, make the turrets damage equal to the Rev/Nag. Change the damage mod or increase the ammo damage itself or up the bonus to 6%/7%/8% per level.
Rename Supercarrier. Assault Carrier sounds better, IMHO (Battle Carrier, Fleet Carrier, etc.. Super Carrier sounds so mehh) Boost the Titan and Mom Hp. Yay! Fix the Mom and Titan Gfx. Moms about 2.5x the size of normal carrier. Titans about 3x the size of a dread.
Let them both dock. But give each a different undocking penalty. If that player chooses to dock, they will need to be protected by the support fleet.
If any of you devs fly a supercap you know very well that once your in that ship your pretty much stuck in it.. at least give that person an option to get out of it.
The "just park it in the array", is a joke and everyone knows it, except maybe you guys.
------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Arkanon I think this thread also illustrates perfectly that we neither censor nor do we try to silence our customers. |
Vee Zee
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Posted - 2009.09.17 23:03:00 -
[463]
remove titans, dreads and carriers from the game and let people redistribute the SP.
game would be 100X better off.
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Daan Sai
Polytrope
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Posted - 2009.09.18 02:23:00 -
[464]
CCP should hold a summit meeting with the current titan pilots and their alliance CEOs and work out the new titan mechanisms. Anything else will just be thrashing about by a rabble of uninformed people ( me included ). --------------------------------- Internet Submarines is Serious Business ---------------------------------
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Sworn Absent
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.18 06:21:00 -
[465]
Originally by: Daan Sai CCP should hold a summit meeting with the current titan pilots and their alliance CEOs and work out the new titan mechanisms. Anything else will just be thrashing about by a rabble of uninformed people ( me included ).
yeah screw the opinions of anyone who doesnt have a hi SP character and tens of billions of isk
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F'nog
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2009.09.18 06:54:00 -
[466]
Abathur autowins for including an Evil Overlord Tip.
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
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steejans nix
Amarr 0beron Construct
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Posted - 2009.09.18 07:58:00 -
[467]
Please change the model for the Gallente bomber to a Amarr one, looks like a t2 punisher could/should.
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Takashi Halamoto
No Limit Productions Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.09.18 08:34:00 -
[468]
my 2isk
on most of the capital changes yeah whatever,
on titans, DD needed to be nerfed, back in the days before DD proof fits it was silly and wrong that one pilot could wipe a subcapital fleet with one click of the button, then came along DD proof fits and double DD's to wipe subcapitals as two different race titans do the work,
that was never a good age to live in, this is not a fix though
imho Instant kill weapons are never good, for one it removes the elements of skill and planning and you know actual fighting, i turn up in a cleverly designed battleship or dread, tweaked and rigged and modded to achieve a specific kind of combat, you lock me press a button and my ship explodes no skill no effort needed on your part you just need to have the instawin button on your ship so to put things in points
1.Instakill weapons remove skill and combat by devolving it to whoever has instakill wins 2.By giving Instakill to titans it will bias the game against those who dont have more titans on field 3.The additional megaboost to titan capital guns means currently they will dominate the field
according to a test done this week by someone i know currently a dread in siege has about 600% damage boost but cant track anything subcapital in a meaningful sense, a fully skilled titan pilot however will have 1125% damage boost and can track a hac or bs if it uses a mwd at which point it will vapourise them with sheer damage
this means currently to win a fight all that would be needed is two titans and as many ships with remote sensor boosters as possible to give the titans as good as instalocking at which point they shred the fleet against them,
now if your going to criticise at least offer suggestions eh? so here are my thoughts
1.re guns, nothing with a turret, not even a titan should be able to out damage a dread in siege mode otherwise the dread will loose its combat role and be replaced with whatever it is that outdamages it, ultimatly the Dread is the king of siege and heavy takedown dont take away its role that said a titan should be better than unsieged, not as good as sieged,
2.DD dosnt have to Kill to 'kill' a DD that for instance set target shields and cap to 0 and offlined all high slots would be nasty forcing major cap transfer or bug out and redock to get guns and such back online, result you cant instantly kill over a billion of someones isk they spent ages training for but can take a dread out a fight in one shot
3.Supercarriers, as long as they obey rule 1 and cant outdamage a dread's guns in siege its all good,
the danger is by making supercarriers and titans too good you create a hierarchy of wealth, those alliances and players who can afford such ships and already have them dominate while those without suffer mainly because Supercarriers and Titans currently cannot be produced in empire (and thats a good thing) so with the dominating level of power the proposed changes will give them and the alliances that have them an overwheling advantage allowing them to effectivly block entry into 0,0 for those alliances unable to mount them or megablob assaults to take them out Me? im just sitting here,
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Nikuno
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Posted - 2009.09.18 09:53:00 -
[469]
What are you doing to my poor moros? As it currently stands it has flexibilty which makes it a superb dread for non-dread fights. As a balance to this it has a choice between poor damage at longer ranges typical of dread fights with it's rails or an option to have high gun damage with blasters but at stupidly close ranges. Rarely will a dread fleet cyno in in 2 sections, one to please blasters and one for everyone else, so the moros has to go with the majority and be the poor relation. Once into siege the lock times are painfully slow, and drones rarely get much invovlement in an actively controlled way if they even get used at all given the disparity between the longer gun ranges and the drone control range. It's not as if the moros has spare highs that can be used to increase drone control range. Whilst blasters continue to be sub-par, the only real redeeming feature of the moros is it's drones, and tying this to seige will see it severely handicapped. I for one will be mothballing my moros and turning to the revelation. Amarr ftw yet again, a very sad trend with no end in sight
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Liam Fremen
Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.18 10:02:00 -
[470]
Edited by: Liam Fremen on 18/09/2009 10:03:30 The new titan roxx.
I love the fact now the ship can defend tiself against enemies, can melt sub-capitals and capitals, the HP buff is at least to feel confortable against a good number of hostiles, obviously in TQ everything change... when you got 50 dreads focused on melting your ship there is no much you can do for avoid it...
I had great fun with erebus in test server and i like the way it works now, regarding the Doomsday, sorry but the fact that some dreads with correct fitting can tank it is wrong for me, same as the fact that super-capitals are too vulnerable to titan DDD, yesterday a erebus was melted in like 1 minute after all titans shooted ddd at him togheter, 100b of ship (maybe more with new fittings requirements) deleted in 1 minute... is not acceptable sorry.
My proposals for fixing the situation: 1) Remove the ability to use the DDD on other super-capitals. 2) Make the DDD a "sure one-shot" weapon, were you delete the enemy ship, except super capitals without any chance of tanking it.
PS: takashi, stop complaining as a noob, if you want to use titans in field they MUST dominate the field, so shut up.
CCP Want a 100b expensive ship fly in the battlefield, or they make it able to be USEFUL doing that or NO-ONE will EVER risk it.
-- Systematic-Chaos, Executor |
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Aylara
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Posted - 2009.09.18 10:24:00 -
[471]
Originally by: Cardiana way to go ccp. just please dont forbid any carrier pilots to have drones with the new specialised fighter bays. drones are still important on a carrier. taking that away would not benefit eve. limiting the amount maybe yes but not taking away.
Don't worry, the Thanatos will have the smallest drone bay within the carrier class, since this is the trend.
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Vile rat
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.09.18 10:57:00 -
[472]
Originally by: Liam Fremen Edited by: Liam Fremen on 18/09/2009 10:03:30 The new titan roxx.
I love the fact now the ship can defend tiself against enemies, can melt sub-capitals and capitals, the HP buff is at least to feel confortable against a good number of hostiles, obviously in TQ everything change... when you got 50 dreads focused on melting your ship there is no much you can do for avoid it...
I had great fun with erebus in test server and i like the way it works now, regarding the Doomsday, sorry but the fact that some dreads with correct fitting can tank it is wrong for me, same as the fact that super-capitals are too vulnerable to titan DDD, yesterday a erebus was melted in like 1 minute after all titans shooted ddd at him togheter, 100b of ship (maybe more with new fittings requirements) deleted in 1 minute... is not acceptable sorry.
My proposals for fixing the situation: 1) Remove the ability to use the DDD on other super-capitals. 2) Make the DDD a "sure one-shot" weapon, were you delete the enemy ship, except super capitals without any chance of tanking it.
PS: takashi, stop complaining as a noob, if you want to use titans in field they MUST dominate the field, so shut up.
CCP Want a 100b expensive ship fly in the battlefield, or they make it able to be USEFUL doing that or NO-ONE will EVER risk it.
Hell yeah I agree 100% percent. We're going to be able to field 30+ of the things at a time on the field because we're rich as hell and just absolutely annihilate whole cap fleets with the press of a button. Once our DD's fire? Then our much better than dread guns will own the hell out of the subcap fleet. This is going to completely rule.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.09.18 12:00:00 -
[473]
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 18/09/2009 12:10:48 CCP the hp increase on supercaps is a good way to allow them to stay on the field - but now that these ships are supposed to be in the middle of a capfight the lack of a shield "slave" set becomes very apparent.
Before dominion nomad sets would benefit both shield and armor tanks alike which offset the slaveset problem, now shieldtanking supercaps are far behind armor tanking ones in ehp. It can easily be the difference between dying to two titans or surviving them. -
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Tiel Enim
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Posted - 2009.09.18 14:31:00 -
[474]
Add a maintnence cost to having a capital ship and we wouldnt see half the 0.0 population flying one. Soon all of these 35k+ carrier clowns will be flying titans. Imagine how fun that will be. Good work CCP.
Add maintnance costs to ships before its too late.
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Fossil Wolf
omen.
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Posted - 2009.09.18 16:08:00 -
[475]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 18/09/2009 12:10:48 CCP the hp increase on supercaps is a good way to allow them to stay on the field - but now that these ships are supposed to be in the middle of a capfight the lack of a shield "slave" set becomes very apparent.
Before dominion nomad sets would benefit both shield and armor tanks alike which offset the slaveset problem, now shieldtanking supercaps are far behind armor tanking ones in ehp. It can easily be the difference between dying to two titans or surviving them.
Shield slaves please
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1Of9
Gallente Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.18 16:15:00 -
[476]
Originally by: Fossil Wolf Shield slaves please
yes. shield slaves. let's make the drake even moar ubber.
shield slaves is a big can of worms.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
Rage of Inferno Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.09.18 16:45:00 -
[477]
Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 18/09/2009 16:48:46 Anyone who really thinks a drake becoming to voerpowered with a 1-2billion implant set but ignoring that armor capital tanks have a much higher hp needs to climb outside of his box.
Edit, because msot ppl wouldnt bother thinking about this for a sec, adding a shield recharge penalty to the set would put it ont he same level slave sets are. -
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Ixtelle
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Posted - 2009.09.18 17:49:00 -
[478]
Originally by: DaemonBarber Edited by: DaemonBarber on 16/09/2009 22:38:53
Originally by: Rayth Phaenor
Originally by: CCP Abathur "If I have an unstoppable super weapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve." - Evil Overlord Rule #40
CCP Abathur, I award you one internets. Oh, and no more doomsday aoe/I win button = happy.
Why would a quote from a very old website win an internets?
http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
Here's a much more thorough list, for anybody that's into that sort of humor.
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skullcrusher452
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Posted - 2009.09.19 05:08:00 -
[479]
Ok, well to all those titan haters and lovers saying that "Oh know, a titan has entered the field now my ship is going to instapop because ccp hates us dread pilots" or "What!? only a modest amount of hp? Thats not nearly enough to make me want to bring my titan into a fleet battle. Give me tank MOFO." Well first off the titan superweapon has a default base of 2 mil hp damage and a max of 3 mil with all lvl 5 skills. I am pretty sure that lots of capital ships out there can make there buffer bigger than that atleast to one specific damage type. If anything if you know your enemy has lets say an avatar(most common dread) you can use this thing called strategy (Uhh me no no what that big word is)and fit EM resist. Knowledge is power. So if you are smart and not some rich noob who bought his character you can plan ahead with a big buffer so that when the titan shoots you, you have a chance of living. So this means cap warfare becomes more about big buffer tanks and less about local tank, the way it should be, just let carriers do their jobs and remote rep you.
The only real problem is alliances with lots of titans like goon(yeah lets pick on goon)who can get lets say 10 titans out in a battle at a time if they want. Now they have great superweapons for comepletely decimating smaller alliances fleets, but if they already had that anyway and are going against a smaller alliance.... they probably would of won anyway...so not much has changed except instead of killing every subcap ship and taking a big chunk out of capital ship hp they just instapop(or come really close) a fair amount of cap ships.The only actual problem is using them to destroy other super cap ships which will more than likely will be there new main role. Not many pilots are going to fly their supercarriers/titans into battle knowing that the other enemy has 10 titans waiting on standby to blow them up. This should mix things up for FC's though. Ex: enemy has just brought in 40 dreads 50 carriers 2 S-carriers and one titan. The titan has already fired its doomsday at your S-carrier and has taken away all of its shield and half its armor but is now stuck to wait for 5 mins before it gets killing blow. The S-carrier has also sent out its new drones out on you and you cant get rr fast enough... now you attack the titan before it recharges or do you attack the Scarrier so as to keep dps off to survive the next titan attack?
As for the supercarriers(its just a name) now instead of a ship that never uses triage or half the stuff its been able to use it gets shiny new drones that can get around 10k dps with max skills. Dont forget, they cost less so now you can get those cool new abilities for maybe around 12 bil? Well I like the change because you can blow @#$% up and still RR when its needed. You can get a decent buffer so you can survive being primared until RR comes on you. As long as these new drones can attack a pos or whatever new sov buildings being introduced are we are good to go. The moros...yeah, right idea wrong implementation. Dread solopwning smaller ships with ogre 2s alone wasnt great. Just up the blaster range or increase rail damage which is underpowered in every size i think so it can get dread lvl dps with just guns and we are good to go.
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DEMOBOB
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Posted - 2009.09.19 16:01:00 -
[480]
I like the changes being made to the Titan class. It only makes sense that the most expensive ship in the game, which also takes the longest time to acquire, is also the most destructive ship in the game. I do agree that being able to one shot just about anything takes a lot of the skill out of it, but it IS supposed to be the biggest, meanest ship out there.
I think that with the changes CCP is talking about, Titans will be truly feared again. Instead of people saying, "Look! It's a Titan! Let's kill it!!!!" it will be more like "Aww **** they brought a Titan in" which is how it should have been all along.
Then again, I have never gone up against a Titan in pvps, so I may just be talking out of my arse here.
Just my 2 ISK.
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Veebora
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.19 21:39:00 -
[481]
I am selling my Moros.
I think FW will see a lot less dreads after this change.
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Tiel Enim
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Posted - 2009.09.19 22:24:00 -
[482]
Originally by: Veebora I am selling my Moros.
I think FW will see a lot less dreads after this change.
We really really hope so! Those stationhugging Moros was so lame. A sort of "I Win Button" for ******ed small children. Maybe we will now start to see dreads in the role they were intended for, shooting big stuff instead of neutrals and noobs in low sec?
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Veebora
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.20 20:04:00 -
[483]
Originally by: Tiel Enim
Originally by: Veebora I am selling my Moros.
I think FW will see a lot less dreads after this change.
We really really hope so! Those stationhugging Moros was so lame. A sort of "I Win Button" for ******ed small children. Maybe we will now start to see dreads in the role they were intended for, shooting big stuff instead of neutrals and noobs in low sec?
I can't deny you have a point.
I just hope the Moros will no be subpair with other dreads.
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Sinner Cain
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Posted - 2009.09.21 02:09:00 -
[484]
The only way the Moros Nerf will be fair to all dread pilots is to make all dreads second skill bonus apply in siege only.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
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Posted - 2009.09.21 06:30:00 -
[485]
Originally by: Tiel Enim Those stationhugging Moros was so lame.
Station camping is lame. Problem was that nerfing the Moros was the wrong way to fix the issue. All it does is move the favored method to Rorqual, then Carriers, then plated BS. Nothing much changes for station campers.
What it does is make the Moros further subpar.
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yars
SkillzKillz
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Posted - 2009.09.21 12:23:00 -
[486]
"Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode."
After months of training to fly one, plus months of mining to build one. I would not call that a "small exception".
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Veebora
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.21 20:53:00 -
[487]
Originally by: yars
"Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode."
After months of training to fly one, plus months of mining to build one. I would not call that a "small exception".
I am experiencing the same issue besides I've bought mine.
You can find my Moros on contracts right now, T2 rigged and fitted for 1.8 bi
I think CCP will force us all to cross training to Amarr before they realize what they are doing with game balance.
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SchoolGirl
Gallente SchoolGirl Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.21 22:08:00 -
[488]
Eve is already Caldary Online with Amarr PvP addon. ;)
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Mystic Amarr
Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate Emergence.
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Posted - 2009.09.21 22:56:00 -
[489]
oh noes a moros! AMARR FTW
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Windryder
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Posted - 2009.09.22 01:05:00 -
[490]
I think the Moros nerf is a little much.
All the Dreads have their advantages AND disadvantages and they are far less alike than the Carriers - a good thing IMO.
* Revelation - Advantage; laser crystals reduce reloading/swapping downtime - Advantage; laser crystals reduce necessary space in cargo hold - Disadvantage; Crystals are restricted to mostly EM damage with some thermal
* Phoenix; - Advantage; torpedoes can theoretically hit moving targets while in seige mode - Advantage; torpedoes allow any damage type to be thrown - Advantage; torpedoes use no cap - Disadvantage; damage bonus only applies to kinetic damage - Disadvantage; shield tank - Disadvantage; no capital cruise missile equivalent available - Disadvantage; no range/damage tweaks by swapping ammo
* Naglfar; - Advantage; projectiles and torps use no cap - Advantage; projectiles and torps allow any damage type to be thrown - Advantage; can fit FOUR capital weapons AND a siege module - Disadvantage; Split weapons systems require more training - Disadvantage; four capital weapons will require hauling more ammo
* Moros; - Advantage; drone bay size - Advantage; drone bonuses - Disadvantage; capital hybrids throw only kinetic damage with some thermal
I'm a caldari pilot but I can see that nerfing the Moros' drones kind of skews the balance a bit.
Windy |
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Peregrin Psythe
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Posted - 2009.09.22 04:13:00 -
[491]
Originally by: Pnuka
Originally by: Soleil Fournier Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 15/09/2009 23:26:19 I agree with a previous poster:
Putting 2+ titans in a system will be a big problem with this design. Your 1 titan won't be able to DD a supercap to death, but that titan buddy right behind him lands the finishing blow 2.45 seconds later. People won't be willing to risk putting their super caps on the field with that type of scenerio.
It just gets worse when there's 4,5,6 titans in the same system. There needs to be some type of limiter. The diminishing return setup where 4 titans shooting at 1 target....but really only the 1st DD counts that CCP has talked about before, or some other type of limiter should be implemented to combat this.
Wondering this as well, if a super cap can only withstand 2-3 shots, they won't be fielded.
I don't undersatnd these arguments where you think 150b ISK titans will be fielded, but 1.5b "supercarriers" won't becuase they are too expensive to lose???? I think the risk/reward is more in favor of fielding a "supercarrier", than a Titan.
The odds of a Titan pilot killing 100 supercarriers without losing his Titan is fairly small.
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xCUSx
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Posted - 2009.09.22 14:21:00 -
[492]
Yeah cant say im real happy bout the Moros nerf, especially considering the training time i put in for it, seems to me like the only dread worth flying now is gonna be the Reva :(
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scarlett 01
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Posted - 2009.09.22 22:16:00 -
[493]
ffs ccp.....moros nerf wtf....ever been stranded in a warp bubble against sub bs ships in a moros with only ur drones for protection??.....ur guns aint no good....coz they cant hit nothing up close. SO WHY FIX SOMETHING THAT AINT BROKE ????
go on make my moros pointless......looks like ur gonna.......wtf do Gallente have to suffer for having to train for both guns and drones ??? Free expansion....free nerf!!!.....btw when u gonna sort out all these extra extended downtimes and api **** ups
WTS ! use PIle of CCP JUNK aka Moros
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Veebora
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.23 02:18:00 -
[494]
I don't think the Dreads should be so useless without siege activated.
Or maybe the siege should giving less bonuses as well as having less drawbacks as long activation time and huge tracking hit.
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zshotites
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Posted - 2009.09.23 03:57:00 -
[495]
Personally I'm not against most of the changes I'm seeing. However, I think a few more changes should be made in Dominion, partially to balance and make the game better and partially because they just make sense.
First of all fighter bombers are getting added so that carriers can take on other capital ships. Yet there still isn't an effective way for small ships to take on capital ships. I mean sure you can get together twenty of your friends and go bash down a few capital ships. But that still means you are using 20 players to take on 1 player. Meanwhile, these drones are being added that will probably be able to take on a dread at 5-10 against 1 odds, probably even better odds. See the logical problem here. If the drone fighter/bombers can take on a capital ship why can't smaller ships do the same. I'm thinking a new Tech II ship needs to be added that will allow players to basically use their own fighter/bomber. Yes we already have a bomber, but I'd like to see one that can take on capital ships. Something a little bit more powerful than a fighter bomber but still nowhere near the power of 5-10 fighter/bomber drones. So instead of having to get 20 of your friends together to go take on a dread or a carrier instead you get a few people together that have ships outfitted specifically to take on capital ships.
Sure this makes dreads and other capital ships a bit more vulnerable. But it also allows a counter to capital ships besides for just more capital ships. And it makes sense with the other changes CCP is making in Dominion. Anyway I'll just list the strengths and weaknesses which is a pretty small list.
Strength: An effective way to take on Capital ships without the need for another Capital ship
Weakness: Not effective against non-capital ships. For example Interceptors and HAC's would probably rip these ships to pieces.
My other idea balances the whole player flown fighter/bomber. How about a capital ship that has the primary use of countering and destroying non capital ships. For instance if anyone is familiar with Star Wars it would be the Lancer class capital ship. Specifically in Star Wars the Lancer class ship was one of the smaller capital ships but had the main purpose of taking down enemy starfighters. So basically for Eve this would be something like a Tech II dreadnaught that specifically aimed at destroying smaller ships. It would make sense to give a ship like this strengths and weaknesses. So every major capital fleet will probably want one of these with them in order to defend against fighter/bombers that are used by either carriers or players.
Strenths: Useful against non-capital ships providing a counter for conventional fleets besides for the Titan's superweapon. High rate of fire, lock on speed, and turret tracking allowing this ship to take on fast small ships that the typical Capital ship would find impossible to hit. Decent range probably at least 100-200 km allowing a ship like this to help defend an entire capital fleet.
Weakness: Lower overall Damage output. Higher cost than for a typical Dreadnaught. Higher skills needed than for a typical Dreadnaught. Defenseless against other Capital ships, and likely wouldn't be able to take on a properly outfitted group of Battleships (remember this is a counter for likely cruiser size and below ships). Lower defenses making these ships more of a reserve type ship that wouldn't be used in front line battles involving capital ships.
Sure this is just a rough go over of these ideas. But personally I think they would allow a brand new level to the game. Capital ships that can effectivly take on smaller ships and smaller ships that can effectivly take on capital ships. |
Shek Long
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Posted - 2009.09.23 08:14:00 -
[496]
Originally by: zshotites Personally I'm not against most of the changes I'm seeing. However, I think a few more changes should be made in Dominion, partially to balance and make the game better and partially because they just make sense.
First of all fighter bombers are getting added so that carriers can take on other capital ships. Yet there still isn't an effective way for small ships to take on capital ships. I mean sure you can get together twenty of your friends and go bash down a few capital ships. But that still means you are using 20 players to take on 1 player. Meanwhile, these drones are being added that will probably be able to take on a dread at 5-10 against 1 odds, probably even better odds. See the logical problem here. If the drone fighter/bombers can take on a capital ship why can't smaller ships do the same. I'm thinking a new Tech II ship needs to be added that will allow players to basically use their own fighter/bomber. Yes we already have a bomber, but I'd like to see one that can take on capital ships. Something a little bit more powerful than a fighter bomber but still nowhere near the power of 5-10 fighter/bomber drones. So instead of having to get 20 of your friends together to go take on a dread or a carrier instead you get a few people together that have ships outfitted specifically to take on capital ships.
Sure this makes dreads and other capital ships a bit more vulnerable. But it also allows a counter to capital ships besides for just more capital ships. And it makes sense with the other changes CCP is making in Dominion. Anyway I'll just list the strengths and weaknesses which is a pretty small list.
Strength: An effective way to take on Capital ships without the need for another Capital ship
Weakness: Not effective against non-capital ships. For example Interceptors and HAC's would probably rip these ships to pieces.
My other idea balances the whole player flown fighter/bomber. How about a capital ship that has the primary use of countering and destroying non capital ships. For instance if anyone is familiar with Star Wars it would be the Lancer class capital ship. Specifically in Star Wars the Lancer class ship was one of the smaller capital ships but had the main purpose of taking down enemy starfighters. So basically for Eve this would be something like a Tech II dreadnaught that specifically aimed at destroying smaller ships. It would make sense to give a ship like this strengths and weaknesses. So every major capital fleet will probably want one of these with them in order to defend against fighter/bombers that are used by either carriers or players.
Strenths: Useful against non-capital ships providing a counter for conventional fleets besides for the Titan's superweapon. High rate of fire, lock on speed, and turret tracking allowing this ship to take on fast small ships that the typical Capital ship would find impossible to hit. Decent range probably at least 100-200 km allowing a ship like this to help defend an entire capital fleet.
Weakness: Lower overall Damage output. Higher cost than for a typical Dreadnaught. Higher skills needed than for a typical Dreadnaught. Defenseless against other Capital ships, and likely wouldn't be able to take on a properly outfitted group of Battleships (remember this is a counter for likely cruiser size and below ships). Lower defenses making these ships more of a reserve type ship that wouldn't be used in front line battles involving capital ships.
Sure this is just a rough go over of these ideas. But personally I think they would allow a brand new level to the game. Capital ships that can effectivly take on smaller ships and smaller ships that can effectivly take on capital ships.
I might be wrong about this but I think "Super Carriers" only get fighter bombers. . .
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Inferno Styx
Caldari Division of Dying Stars Solyaris Chtonium
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Posted - 2009.09.23 19:00:00 -
[497]
how about giving fighters launched from Mom's and Carriers another job as well. Fighters would have a new mode when launched (Intercept). When this mode is active the fighters will automatically attack any hostile fighters or Fighter bombers within their range. This goes along with the carrier's primary role as a support ship it can protect the cap fleet from hostile fighters and bombers.
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Ardion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 11:16:00 -
[498]
Edited by: Ardion on 24/09/2009 11:20:40 Super Carrier sound awfull
Assault Carrier, Heavy Carrier, Strike Carrier all imho sounds better just not "super" carriers, "super" in it sound like some 4th grade comic book...
Imho Heavy Carrier is best fitting as it shows the big diffrence in EHP and also firepower (bombers), as for assault and strike prefix will be better if those carriers was armed with guns not just drones (like battlestar galactica)
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Dr Edart
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Posted - 2009.09.24 12:04:00 -
[499]
You all are worried about Super Carriers? Better be worried about the new game "Titan Online" MK II.
Remember when we had Titan Online MK I ? DD through a jump portal? NO RISK to deploy your Titan in anger?
Now we have Alliances FAT with 30 Titans or more, you think that your 50-60 man Capital Fleet is going to be safe when you take Sov off of lets say Red Overlord or Against Some Authorities? Or even Pandemic Legion and Goons ?
This new Titan Online patch just gave the Titan the ability to simply destroy your entire Capital Fleet before it is out of Siege to warp away.
Lets say -A- decide to field thier 27 Titans it is now, to knock out Alliance B for anchoring a 10M3 Sov Disruptor in a shuttle with a 1 day old alt.
Lets say for the sake of arguement it was a CTA and Alliance B showed up with a good showing of 60 Capitals to Hell Purge a system of Towers and shoot station services.
-A- now catch Alliance B in siege at a Tower full of juicy Labs and moon Goo Miners, and begin the Siege. Since they took Sov down no Jammers, -A- just cyno in top of them at snipe range 27 Titans, and start to bzzt bzzzt the entire Dread Fleet before it can get out of Siege to run.
No ammout of repping can save you, your in siege, and you now have a mega wtfpwnmobile worse then when there were DD going through jump portals shooting you destroying your capital instantly.
Congratularions!!!!! You now cannot rebuild your Capital Fleet unless you do it in NPC low sec, well because CCP want you to go into 0.0 and immerge your head in your a$$.
So without Sov 4 no where is going to be safe period to build Capitals and Super Capitals in 0.0. No research tower is safe, no drug lab, no ship building facility, no moon goo, nothing will be safe to the weekend lets rick roll them for lulz pod pilot.
And with this change CCP think more people coming to 0.0 ? Empire will never have been so crowded tbh, even the hardcore PVP types are going to run missions and hold the Jita 4-4 undock since holding any sort of 0.0 with stability will be impossible under the new mechanic.
The Dominion patch should be renamed Eve just became ******ed, welcome back to Titan Online we have timewarped back into the past 4 years ago when there was no sov, and you could DD without risk.
My dear Gentelmen your Moros is dead already and you dont even know it. I have seen the major Alliances practicing the DD Driveby killing entire Cap Fleets before they can come out of Siege, so dont say it is not going to happen, driveby is the new tactic, you losing everything you have is the new way of playing in 0.0.
Better off in Empire war deccing noobs for PVP instead of the cesspool that 0.0 is about to become.
All it takes is a few alts in shuttles with 10 m3 Sov disruptors and your on your way!
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Serj Darek
Minmatar Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2009.09.24 14:29:00 -
[500]
Originally by: Dr Edart ...
CCP quit commenting on this thread when the comments went from 'cool' to 'wtf', so don't think a ton of people don't share your same perspective. I think CCP is too far along in their code cycle for the next release to do anything about the idiocy. I expect at least two or three patches for capitals and sov mechanics when Dominion is released. I would have thought that the game balance team would have caught some of these obvious issues, but as others have pointed out, I doubt they play as often as we do.
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cok cola
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.09.24 18:22:00 -
[501]
Edited by: cok cola on 24/09/2009 18:22:57
Originally by: Vile rat Ultimately I think the Titan DD change is great but mostly because you've managed to break the Doomsday concept even more than it was originally and we're in the best position to benefit from abusing the hell out of it.
hehe, goons :D
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Veebora
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.09.25 00:07:00 -
[502]
Originally by: Dr Edart You all are worried about Super Carriers? Better be worried about the new game "Titan Online" MK II.
Remember when we had Titan Online MK I ? DD through a jump portal? NO RISK to deploy your Titan in anger?
Now we have Alliances FAT with 30 Titans or more, you think that your 50-60 man Capital Fleet is going to be safe when you take Sov off of lets say Red Overlord or Against Some Authorities? Or even Pandemic Legion and Goons ?
This new Titan Online patch just gave the Titan the ability to simply destroy your entire Capital Fleet before it is out of Siege to warp away.
Lets say -A- decide to field thier 27 Titans it is now, to knock out Alliance B for anchoring a 10M3 Sov Disruptor in a shuttle with a 1 day old alt.
Lets say for the sake of arguement it was a CTA and Alliance B showed up with a good showing of 60 Capitals to Hell Purge a system of Towers and shoot station services.
-A- now catch Alliance B in siege at a Tower full of juicy Labs and moon Goo Miners, and begin the Siege. Since they took Sov down no Jammers, -A- just cyno in top of them at snipe range 27 Titans, and start to bzzt bzzzt the entire Dread Fleet before it can get out of Siege to run.
No ammout of repping can save you, your in siege, and you now have a mega wtfpwnmobile worse then when there were DD going through jump portals shooting you destroying your capital instantly.
Congratularions!!!!! You now cannot rebuild your Capital Fleet unless you do it in NPC low sec, well because CCP want you to go into 0.0 and immerge your head in your a$$.
So without Sov 4 no where is going to be safe period to build Capitals and Super Capitals in 0.0. No research tower is safe, no drug lab, no ship building facility, no moon goo, nothing will be safe to the weekend lets rick roll them for lulz pod pilot.
And with this change CCP think more people coming to 0.0 ? Empire will never have been so crowded tbh, even the hardcore PVP types are going to run missions and hold the Jita 4-4 undock since holding any sort of 0.0 with stability will be impossible under the new mechanic.
The Dominion patch should be renamed Eve just became ******ed, welcome back to Titan Online we have timewarped back into the past 4 years ago when there was no sov, and you could DD without risk.
My dear Gentelmen your Moros is dead already and you dont even know it. I have seen the major Alliances practicing the DD Driveby killing entire Cap Fleets before they can come out of Siege, so dont say it is not going to happen, driveby is the new tactic, you losing everything you have is the new way of playing in 0.0.
Better off in Empire war deccing noobs for PVP instead of the cesspool that 0.0 is about to become.
All it takes is a few alts in shuttles with 10 m3 Sov disruptors and your on your way!
On the other, if the new DD has tracking speed, the Titan will be more vulnerable against big BS fleets.
I don't think it is very easy having 30 Titans together as desired.
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chockojako
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Posted - 2009.09.25 02:34:00 -
[503]
whatever.
CCP is castrating the game one galente ship at a time. sooner or later the yawns will take over as every ship becomes more and more sterile. I think its time to update the Galente race as one that used to like drones until amarr decided they liked them better. I have an idea that may help. Fix the ****en overview and game crashes and the countless bugs instead of ****ing on the the zounds of wide opened mouthed zombies by passing off another hardly working patch as a free upgrade. One other thing. Give yourselves a little more time to do the upgrade so the servers go up on time and you dont need to patch the patch over and over again. thanks for your time. |
Valentia Valens
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.09.25 04:51:00 -
[504]
I vote for Motherships to be called "Space Control Ships" - and Carriers to be called "Carriers" and Titans to be called "Titans" - that seems to be a good idea in my humble opinion.
The reason for space control ships as I see it is carriers do fleet carrier work and a "super-carrier" really is a system control ship - using it's wing to support and control a region of space, not in a particular slot in a fleet but as a flagship for a larger strategic objective... where I see a carrier(s) as fleet ships that support direct engagements... Motherships I feel are the kind of ships that not only use fighters for attack, but support larger expansion of empire space via colonial activities and protection of emergent system settlement - I was hoping that they would play a big part in the new sov (indirectly) as a means of smaller corps (that couldn't get a titan) would use a MS for a main ship/support with a smaller fleet to move into null and secure and dev a system... that to me is a sound purpose for a ship that can deligate it's fighters, use bombers, but also would have had clone vats for use by the pilots... a small corp would have done well with that and it would have allowed for protection when putting up a new POS with the new system where sov is uncoupled from POS placement (hopefully).
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Meeogi
Amarr Lone Star Privateers
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Posted - 2009.09.27 13:20:00 -
[505]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 16/09/2009 00:46:31
Supercapitals didn't come out right for three reasons:
- kept relying on isk/skillpoints as a deterrent to ownership, which obviously does not work in the long run
- didn't devote enough coding resources to use unique mechanics, and instead recycled crap from the usual ship lineup
- underestimated how easily players can vaporize any amount of HP
Supercapitals should:
- NOT BE SHIPS, OR USE ANY OF THEIR MECHANICS GODDAMNIT
- be fully persistent and not go "poof" when someone decides they don't feel like defending it that day
- use reinforced/anchoring modes over passive/active tanking for defense
- require upkeep for operations just like starbases, deterring ownership for the sake of ownership through cost AND logistics
- require actual teamwork and logistics in their construction, key word: work
- require actual resources to repair and corporate roles in control
- require more than the push of a button to cyno out
- provide limited services/interactivity to allies with or without an active pilot at the helm
- not have 'normal ship' modules or slots; retrofits involving POS + time + money that leave them vulnerable
Titans should:
- automatically be reconsidered for balancing if more than a handful exist in the entire game
- have an even more powerful Doomsday, but one that does damage over time, costs major resources and leaves tactical after-effects on grid/system to screw with both sides
- not portal fleets, but carry them instead
- provide limited manufacturing capability
- scare the crap out of BOTH SIDES' FCs by preventing anything from escaping
- eat dreadnaughts for breakfast
Motherships should:
- be a viable offensive mobile base for medium-large sized corporations
- rely on signature masking, scanner spoofing and environments to "hide" from hostiles
- provide full clone services, to give fallen allies a chance to rejoin the fleet battle before its over
- provide ammo, charge, drone construction capability
All capitals should:
- NOT HAVE ANY INSURANCE, BASIC OR OTHERWISE FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFGLGHRLGHLNRNGHGHGHHGLRRR
- require jumpdrive spooling that isn't so immediate/instant
- have racial differences in capital stats (fuel cost, jump range, fighter bay, etc) and not just Tech 1
Alright I'm losing steam and I can't even remember half the stuff I wrote here ages ago (includes Dreadnaughts/Carriers). But the point is..
The quality of capital warfare is directly proportional to the amount of new mechanics and coding resources you throw at them, even if the whole thing is unbalanced and buggy as hell to start with.
It's disappointing that after so much talk and wait, your way of addressing supercapitals is to remove them in all but name. What is this cautious nonsense and how did it get in my CCP? >:E
BE A MAN.
AMEN!!!!
Seriously I agree FULLY! Supercaps...should be an Major corp endeavor...."MAJOR" and require the "corp" not player to maintain it...and to fly it.
DigitalCommie....this post earns you the digital key to eve sir. Wax on Wax off |
Aluin Chaput
Caldari Mort's Navy
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Posted - 2009.09.27 16:40:00 -
[506]
You call them Supercarriers.
I call them Drop dead Sexy!
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Aluin Chaput
Caldari Mort's Navy
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Posted - 2009.09.27 16:47:00 -
[507]
You call them Super carriers.
I call them Drop dead Sexy!
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Vyanr
Minmatar Professors On Steriods DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2009.09.29 11:09:00 -
[508]
I am dissapoint at Hel nerf.
sexiest ship around is reduced to sitting on the blueprint rolls and ship visualizer.
The niddy's only use is RR as well, and as many have pointed out Nag is basiclly a useless investment.
I can't wait till Minmatar get some nice boosts for a change. Seriously.
and unless we can see a formation line in our fighter-bombers, I don't see how they'll be different from a squad of comparatively cheaper stealth bomber tactics. Alliances are better off just fielding 30+ SBs and dropping bomb nukes en mass to wtfpwn.
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Amaldor Themodius
Gunship Diplomacy
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Posted - 2009.09.29 12:18:00 -
[509]
Quote: Dreads will remain unchanged with one small exception - the Moros will only receive its drone damage bonus if it is in siege mode.
I disagree that this is a small change. For me as a Moros pilot this pretty much kills this ship as a consideration. I have used the Moros as a means to still play the game when a much larger enemy attempts to box either myself or my corp members into a station. Undocking into a hostile fleet of 20 and entering seige mode to engage the drone bonuses is not really an option, with the hot drops that generally follow.
This may not be the intended use of the vessel but clearly the developers original concept for this particular vessel extended beyond POS fights. I dont expect CCP to listen to much to my concerns but i do feel this change is an unintended shift in power toward the supremacy of the blob over the ability of a small gang/ individual. No one was ever "tackled" and killed by my moros who didnt hang around for way to long to allow a lock and dps to occur.
Just my 2 cents
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Jodo McFatty
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Posted - 2009.09.29 14:45:00 -
[510]
Edited by: Jodo McFatty on 29/09/2009 14:45:47 CCP why oh why are you going to kill of such a wonderfull dread. The moros is already losing value. Dont kill the best dread with your changes for eve's sake
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Aralis
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.29 15:15:00 -
[511]
The changes to the Moros are one of the few changes I approve of. It does it no harm at all to a dread doing what it's meant do. Currently it's the only dreadnaught that is dangerous out of siege mode and this is wrong. It's a griefers low sec tool.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.09.29 17:31:00 -
[512]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist Supercapitals didn't come out right for three reasons:
- kept relying on isk/skillpoints as a deterrent to ownership, which obviously does not work in the long run
... <rest of quote redacted>
I am so glad someone said this, in particular (the rest of the post was good too). It seems to get forgotten so often. Ships need to have a focused unending purpose & drawback that is unique to them to remain viable in the long term, because eventually a much larger population will be able to afford and fly them or their betters (though the sov changes might semi-reduce the ability on the side of being able to build them, I guess, if the resources available to a given alliance change a great deal).
Oh and I absolutely loved the idea (as a concept anyway) that a Titan's presence would somehow interdict both sides' ability to escape, akin to a giant gravity well or somesuch. That alone is suitably original and unique, something that other vessels can't do. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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Laur Khal
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Posted - 2009.10.01 20:17:00 -
[513]
Originally by: ElvenLord
Originally by: Zastrow J I said this at the CSM summit and I'm repeating it here: while I understand the desire to keep a Moros from raping any subcap to get closer than 60km with drones, making it rely on sentries in siege to even come near the dps of the other dreads makes it by far the least desirable dread. Its only saving grace was it's ability to fight off subcaps out of siege but with that gone it's just going to be one more class of ship where Gallente is the worst.
I agree 100% with the goon. Removing something that made moros what it was just makes it worthless.
"Of all the dreadnoughts currently in existence, the versatile Moros possesses perhaps the greatest capacity to fend off smaller hostiles by itself while concentrating on its primary capital target. By virtue of its protean array of point defense capabilities - including a drone bay capable of fielding vast amounts of drones to safeguard the behemoth - the Moros is single-handedly capable of turning the tide in a fleet battle." - this is/was the moros description
QFE. So much for the versatility now... can I have my skillpoints back for the false advertising?
Wouldn't it just make more sense to drop the drone bonus from 5x to 2x and then balance the turrets?
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Roland Thorne
Dark Sun Collective Kahora Catori
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Posted - 2009.10.02 03:09:00 -
[514]
Originally by: Laur Khal Wouldn't it just make more sense to drop the drone bonus from 5x to 2x and then balance the turrets?
If ccp simply drops the drone hp bonus it will solve the lowsec camping issue.
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Solvia
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Posted - 2009.10.09 22:51:00 -
[515]
Big thoughts... mother ship.
So, CCP is going to free up the term mother ship and that does open for something else to fill that hole in our hearts. The term itself just sound massive awe inspiring and breathtaking, so according to my line of thoughts the new mother ship will match this.
First of: then looking at other universes, game/movie/other, mother ships tends to be A) massive B) a ship carrier, in difference to drone carrier. C) none-combat ship
So what Im going for here, is a ship that like a capital ship maintenance array have the capacity to carry other ships, with say 100.000.000m3, it would house a cloning bay. A flying pos with a few changes...
it would have no shield unless deployed, the ship maintenance bay could only be accessed then deployed, and apart from a jumpdrive no engine. It simply to massive to move and must use a cyno, its engines would be used only to keep it "anchored".
Once deployed anchor able starbase structures could be put outside the ship, this would open for the possibility to put i.e. an refinery in a faraway system that has thus not been mined for years, or just put a lot of guns spelling a very bad day at your enemy's favourite stargate.
yes... stargate, since its a ship it would not need a moon to hover around... just enough free space in all directions. That includes with in firing range of enemy stargates, right next to an asteroid belt, or just where the wormhole usually opens.
Unlike normal ships that "vanishes" then the player logs off, the mother ship would stay where the pilot left it, being accessible (and controllable) for his corporation. This would presume its all ready deployed and thus its shields are up. In other case, a deployment cycle, 15-30minutes depending on the ships final amount of OMFG, would begin.
A deployed mother ship that does not belong to you, your corp, or your alliance would be very bad news. But that also means it would result in very interesting and huge operations, of immense strategic value, involving several pilots to move and deploy it... or prevent it from being deployed.
This proposal is ship that will be massive, and that will make a just a massive impact on the strategic map where ever its positioned, and will take just as massive amount of resources time and ISK to build.
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Manterror
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Posted - 2009.10.10 01:50:00 -
[516]
Originally by: Solvia A big ship
Yes, good concept. Except I would like to see some control as to how many can be built. (ie. 1 per alliance/corp, and a ****LOAD of resources to construct).
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Solvia
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Posted - 2009.10.10 08:40:00 -
[517]
I'm glad you liked the concept, and yes, such limitations could be necessary unless the shear bill of materials is so high you only build one, possibly two if your in a big alliance.
The cost to build it, as well as its final amount of hp (OMFG factor), will be crucial balancing points for this shipconcept.
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Gunther Nhilathok
Caldari Warsmiths
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Posted - 2009.10.11 21:39:00 -
[518]
I've been playing EVE for four years. People assume I fly capital ships and seem surprised when I tell them I never skilled for them. I then refer them to the forums. Professional Material Re-Allocation Technician |
Electra Sabbota
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Posted - 2009.10.12 07:00:00 -
[519]
Why nerf the moros?Or why ask why ccp needs to nerf skills or ships to make new releases look better?Why not make the new content great instead?
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Anathstasia
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Posted - 2009.10.12 19:14:00 -
[520]
"One more thing - the Hel is getting rid of its current repair bonuses and trading them in for bonuses that enhance the endurance of its Fighters and Fighter Bombers. I guess the Flight Deck Chiefs on Hels like duct taping spare bits of armor onto their strike craft or something..."
Noooooooo! Minmitar Piolets like to duct tape their various allies while combat rages on, you guys are seriuosly killing my dream of a Hel with this change. At least the Nid isn't changing... At least give the hel's fighters a Damage, RoF or SPEED bounus! thats what the minmatar do. Now they are looking like Caldari, and that just seems wrong, nothing in the minmatar line up gets resistance bounuses!!! It doesn't matter hpw much Duct tape you use, your ship doesn't get any more reflective....
Does anyone agree with me or am I all alone on this one? I won't complain if this is what the people want... -sigh-
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Anathstasia
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Posted - 2009.10.12 19:19:00 -
[521]
And I Forgot to say LOVVVVVVVVE the new Minmatar Titan
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Anathstasia
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Posted - 2009.10.12 20:16:00 -
[522]
Originally by: Tarnia Xavian You don't need new weapons to sell more motherships. Let them dock and I'll buy one tomorrow.
Yes Yes Yes and Yes! And for Titans too Please!!
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Bemoteajh
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Posted - 2009.10.13 09:46:00 -
[523]
The titan even with the 1 hit weapon will still be out matched as it will obviously have massive fuel cost and slow rate of fire unless they give it 5mil+ structure/armor/shield before fittings right now the Ragnarok only has around 1.5mil base
MAKE THEM THE BEASTS THEY ARE DESIGNED TO BE!!!
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Ammon Dei
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Posted - 2009.10.15 17:12:00 -
[524]
Remove the Nerf to the Moros. There are far more pressing issues in game than removing the only thing that makes it worth flying. It sets it apart and has it's roll in fleet battles. The longer I play EVE, the more it becomes evident that I chose the wrong race.
GO AMARR!!
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Heloise ChateauBriande
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Posted - 2009.10.22 06:47:00 -
[525]
Originally by: HunterHH .. i think the name strike carrier will fit more then super carrier. or assault carrier.
Here are some of my alternative naming suggestions for "Supercarrier or Mothership"
POS Carrier No Role Carrier Expensive Target Failcarrier Waste of ISK
any other suggestions?
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Mack Bane
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Posted - 2009.10.22 16:15:00 -
[526]
Edited by: Mack Bane on 22/10/2009 16:24:58 Per Definition, a "mothership" should be "The mother of/and to all ships" My take on it would be:
Gigantic =50-100km in diameter,Stationary, apart from JD Expensive = 100 billion or so(for the blueprint)+ Material(maybe a trillion in total) Modular Build,(like Tech 3)only one allowed per Corps. Mobile SOV-maintainer/Aquirer/Pos Transporter/ship repairer/Flying POS/Corps Mainstation Docking place for at least 2 Titans, ten Capitals,and Hangars for at least 250 BS or smaller ships
Firepower (Depending on Modules) 500KM range,Pos-instapopping focus-fire,or 100km Smarties,With Cruiser instapop power.
CloneVatBay for about 300 Jumpclones
Shield like a POS (maybe just 10km)If enemy ships collide with it,they pop(insert Admiral Ackbar quote here)Exceptions could be Stealth or Covert-Ops ships,When cloaked Drone bay for 50 Fighters/Fighter-Bombers, and for 150 smaller drones enough bandwith for 20 Fighter/FB's Needs 4 Cynofields to move,needs more jumpfuel than 4 Titans, gets all "Incarna" Pizzaz.(is basically an Aggro or defensive Station,according to its build)
I also would like to see "Dust 514" players to duck in fear, when this thing covers the sun, and turns the planet into a 24/7 dark place (or equipped with Planetar bombing equipment, into a nice little Asteroid Field)
I know, it sounds a little Uber, but i am pretty sure, some Alliances would try to take one down, with let's say 10 Titans or so. And i would also like to see that fight,
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Fitz VonHeise
Eye Bee Em
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Posted - 2009.10.22 20:59:00 -
[527]
Motherships would have been much more Relevant with two changes:
Make their clone vat bays act just like a station.
In that if a clone is put into a MS then people can clone jump from any station to the MS and if they are not podded can jump back to the same station if within 2,500k of the MS.
The other change would be to double the size of the MS's ship hanger so they can carry more ships to battle.
This would allow MS's to be close to the battle and people can clone from the HQ area that is often far away from the battle.
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Estios
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2009.10.23 10:46:00 -
[528]
Originally by: Mack Bane Edited by: Mack Bane on 22/10/2009 16:24:58 Per Definition, a "mothership" should be "The mother of/and to all ships" My take on it would be:
Gigantic =50-100km in diameter,Stationary, apart from JD Expensive = 100 billion or so(for the blueprint)+ Material(maybe a trillion in total) Modular Build,(like Tech 3)only one allowed per Corps. Mobile SOV-maintainer/Aquirer/Pos Transporter/ship repairer/Flying POS/Corps Mainstation Docking place for at least 2 Titans, ten Capitals,and Hangars for at least 250 BS or smaller ships
Firepower (Depending on Modules) 500KM range,Pos-instapopping focus-fire,or 100km Smarties,With Cruiser instapop power.
CloneVatBay for about 300 Jumpclones
Shield like a POS (maybe just 10km)If enemy ships collide with it,they pop(insert Admiral Ackbar quote here)Exceptions could be Stealth or Covert-Ops ships,When cloaked Drone bay for 50 Fighters/Fighter-Bombers, and for 150 smaller drones enough bandwith for 20 Fighter/FB's Needs 4 Cynofields to move,needs more jumpfuel than 4 Titans, gets all "Incarna" Pizzaz.(is basically an Aggro or defensive Station,according to its build)
I also would like to see "Dust 514" players to duck in fear, when this thing covers the sun, and turns the planet into a 24/7 dark place (or equipped with Planetar bombing equipment, into a nice little Asteroid Field)
I know, it sounds a little Uber, but i am pretty sure, some Alliances would try to take one down, with let's say 10 Titans or so. And i would also like to see that fight,
Before you typed all that you did realise that Titans are supposed to be the largest ships in New Eden right? You do something Art related for a job right?
So HMV consider Andy Williams and Dean Martin to be "easy listening" do they? Tell that to my mate Dave, he's been deaf for 20 years.
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Mack Bane
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Posted - 2009.10.25 04:09:00 -
[529]
Edited by: Mack Bane on 25/10/2009 04:14:34 LOL, why Art?I just say, what a "Mothership" should be.(in my view) Something Massive.My "Ship" would actually be more of a jump-capable station, than a real ship.Something like a flying city,ready to house a full corp, if necessary.A main base.And as far as ship goes, Yes, Titans may be the biggest ships right now. But the future is, what it's all about.
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Lusulpher
Blackwater Syndicate Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.07 02:24:00 -
[530]
Edited by: Lusulpher on 07/11/2009 02:29:52 Edited by: Lusulpher on 07/11/2009 02:28:01
Originally by: Roland Thorne
Originally by: Laur Khal Wouldn't it just make more sense to drop the drone bonus from 5x to 2x and then balance the turrets?
If ccp simply drops the drone hp bonus it will solve the lowsec camping issue.
The lowsec camping issue is one of Stationhugging...drone hp is needed in all capital fights for anti-lag response, but seeing as how the Moros can't even use sentries at sniper range...CCP goofed. Hopefully, they fixed the orbit on those new Fighter Bombers and increased their sig so small ships actually hurt them.
Griefer tools are legal AS LONG AS THERE IS REPRISAL, aka suicidegank = CONCORDOKKENED + Loot rush! Unsieged dread needs to be outside long enough to go into armour with another dread/BS fleet that shows as backup.
People aggress in buffer ships and then dish as much damage as possible.(buffer setups still better than the much harder to train active ones)
The first solution would be to assign scalable aggro timers for ship classes...
Second, reduce damage problem ships could do now that they have a chance of being killed themselves outside of their natural combat scenario...fix 1 would eliminate much of the practitioners of stationhugging. That would help with wardecs, cowardly stationfights and all other problems. CCP took the lazy solution. They will redeem themselves when they actually make larger ships fit superbuffer(no damage mods) setups and actually fear reprisal.
Saves them needing to scale sentry damage to shipsize, fix 3.
And I repeat, Dreads should have NO DRONEBAYS(or only 1 flight of lights/meds). Get any decent amount of dreads together and a target caller and what you have is an anti-support capable blob...wtf, no one sees an issue with that??! This is part of the yeehah!-blob-the-field problem. That and no warmup/cooldown cynoes.
Solo dread tacklers should die to support or skillfully used drones. Not be omgwtfihadnochanceofgettingasweettackleatall. Or Icantankhimhe'sscrammedOMGhedocked!
I for one welcome our former stationhugging Carrier Overlords. 7 |
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Hyman Rickov3r
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Posted - 2009.11.07 10:36:00 -
[531]
should be interesting to see what this new titan weapon is
should also be interesting to see these bombers in action
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Mack Bane
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Posted - 2009.11.13 02:30:00 -
[532]
Edited by: Mack Bane on 13/11/2009 02:32:14 WHAT IF:The DD had a smartbomb-effect? The targeted ship would explode,and the ships next to it (within a certain distance) would get some damage to shield/armor.(lets say 10-20 km diameter)
this would be A)A little more of an anti-blob weapon.Ships would need to spread out a little bit more(adding a bit of strategical planning). And B) enhance a Titans survivability, because some enemy ships would be needed to repair those damaged comrades.Reducing the enemy's attacking force.
another idea, for free
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StS ChaosEngine
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Posted - 2009.11.13 08:46:00 -
[533]
Making "supercarrier" and "titans" a max 5bill cost factor will only result in corporations an alliances owning even more supercaps.
at a price of approx 5bil my corporation alone could field 10 moms with the same ammount of isk reducing a supercarriers offensive capability is woth nothing because you will see three time more Supercarriers (moms) in capital fleets.
Also I expect some sort of reimbursement for our corporations mom pilots who spend a ****load of time and isk to skill by or build a mothership/titan
Supercarrier :P thats really what it is know a big fat carrier but not more ECM-Burst ; next to useless becaus it does not act like ecm . it is more like a lockbreaker bomb Clone Vat ; gone Triage: gone +3 fighterbonus: gone
thx
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Liam Fremen
Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.11.13 10:52:00 -
[534]
Edited by: Liam Fremen on 13/11/2009 10:53:27 I repeat my position:
All the ships of the game MUST have a role so for sum it up:
1) Titans a) You want people to USE them in field? fighitng togheter with others? give titan pilots a reason to do it except drop 20 of them and wtfbbq 20 enemy caps OR show off to friends that you can one volley a lone capital that is griefing at dock range, titan pilots like me already said it: we need HP, we need DDD shorter then 10 mins and we need something to do between one DDD and the next one, give us these 3 things and we can use them. b) You don't know how to balance them in fight? DON'T make them fight, make them a logistic platform, give them a better jump/bridge range, at least like a Dread, give them the option to bring in the ship bay 50 battlesihps, make people able to suicide-clone to titans online of the same corporation and remove all weapons, drones and doomsday, make them a logistic platform.
2) Super Carriers a) You want them to be super-capitals? they must keep the actual price tag, they must be good at something, remember that for you guys ISK are just a value in the database, for us can be years of work, you can't roll back a price from 20b to 5b and belive to go away flawless. b) you want them to be "light" super capitals? give them the carrier (or at least dreads) jump range, did you ever noticed that your wonderful map is made in a way that a dread can go about everywhere without many troubles but a mothership CAN'T? why i should change the jump route of 50 capitals for bringing 1-2 super carriers with me? is pointless.
CCP you are seriously making a wrong thing here, you did many nerfs over the last years, i'm here from 6 years at march.. i still remember tomB nerf-bat, i remember all, but you never decided from day to night to make 2 class of ships completely useless.
We speak about the 2 end-game ships guys, the maximum goal of a player ship-wise in this game is to own a titan... it MUST do something... you can't just make it a big portal generator with a "show to the friend" kaboom deathray...
-- Systematic-Chaos, Executor |
Tresiphone
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Posted - 2009.11.14 00:15:00 -
[535]
The whole concept of a supercarrier in Eve is dumb. The aim of these ships is to do damage to capital ships. So why not structure them that way. These ships are assault carriers. They get no corporate bays, no ship bays; just a cargo hold and jump fuel bay.
The bonuses are to damage and repair - damage is racial type per level style bonus and repair is:
Minmatar - shield boost bonus level Amarr - armour resistance level Caldari - shield resistance/level Gallente - armour repair bonus/ level
These ships get no remote rep or shield bonus at all but can fit the modules if they like. Rather, they get inherent bonuses to shield or armour resists just like HACS do now in addition to EW invulnerability. Their role is anti capital work and anti structure work.
Assault carriers are T2 carriers. They can be docked and require Fighters 5 for the fighter bombers and carrier 5 for the ship. The current Motherships become assault carriers.
This is not hard CCP. By the way - the next evolution is a logistics carrier. Then you have three types of Carrier - utility carrier, assault carrier and then logistics carrier.
The logistics carrier has many high slots - uses remote repair and shield bonus and has extraordinary cap regeneration as well. It has wing repair bonuses and can fit the logistics siege module as a high slot BUT has none of its movement limitations. The Log carrier has a *****ing tank, weak to little dps and EW invulnerability. It also has a very large corporate hangar bay but no ship bay.
Now in Capitals online, which is what Eve has become, you can have logistics ships, capital logistics ships and capital killing ships. And you create a reason for getting rid of utility carriers as the essential workhorse of any fleet in Eve.
Dreadnoughts now need some loving. A capital tracking module can be fitted into a high slot which enables a sieged dread to hit moving targets that are capital sized. In addtion, these anti-capital dreads get the ability to be remote repaired while in siege. The anti-capital sie ge module requires dreadnought 5 and EW 5. Now you get a choice, raw dps or the ability to hit anything. Note that with its 4 high slots the Minnie Capital comes out as the best utility dread at the cost of dps. Thus a dread fleet will be a mixture of anti structure and anti capitals as well.
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Quesa
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.16 23:03:00 -
[536]
Dreads don't need loving, they are the anti-structure/dread ship.
SuperCarriers were awesome in the first incarnation, you could actually use them for something. Now they are just a dread with more HP with target-able turrets (shooting the fighter bombers).
We already have logistics carriers, they are carriers with a Triage module active. I'd much rather have a carrier that can, you know, actually CARRY BS's to the front line. I'd also like a clone vat bay that might actually be beneficial in combat. Allowing someone to set their clone to it would be a start.
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Aralis
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.17 02:34:00 -
[537]
If you're going to let motherships dock I think you should only let them dock in outposts. Not in Empire stations. Last thing low sec needs is more souped up docking games.
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Ezekialous
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:18:00 -
[538]
Originally by: Aralis If you're going to let motherships dock I think you should only let them dock in outposts. Not in Empire stations. Last thing low sec needs is more souped up docking games.
I have to agree, since they will be only produced in sov 0.0, why not make them dockable only in 0.0, also it should be something earned not just given.
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Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2009.11.20 07:22:00 -
[539]
Edited by: Super Whopper on 20/11/2009 07:24:13 The Epic blog of yet another EPIC FAIL by CCP.
Quote: This means NO CHANGES WILL BE MADE TO MOTHERSHIPS IN DOMINION. Since they are part of the original rebalancing effort, the DEPLOYMENT OF FIGHTER BOMBERS WILL ALSO BE POSTPONED.
Who wasn't happy with the design changes? From what I've seen the EVE population were pretty happy with it, the devs were happy with it and then someone comes along and decides the changes are bad? WTF?
FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL
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slip66
Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.20 22:04:00 -
[540]
Originally by: Super Whopper Edited by: Super Whopper on 20/11/2009 07:24:13 The Epic blog of yet another EPIC FAIL by CCP.
Quote: This means NO CHANGES WILL BE MADE TO MOTHERSHIPS IN DOMINION. Since they are part of the original rebalancing effort, the DEPLOYMENT OF FIGHTER BOMBERS WILL ALSO BE POSTPONED.
Who wasn't happy with the design changes? From what I've seen the EVE population were pretty happy with it, the devs were happy with it and then someone comes along and decides the changes are bad? WTF?
FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL
they would help themselves out a lot if they would explain the reasons for the abrupt changes and give more then vague hints at where they want to go.
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Windryder
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Posted - 2009.11.22 22:54:00 -
[541]
Edited by: Windryder on 22/11/2009 22:57:35 I had a dream.
It was about EvE.
A Titan hot-drops into a fleet battle because the enemy has capital supremacy and their fighters are tearing the blue battleships apart. It starts-up its massive array of gang-warfare links and the advanced computing power, direct neural interface and powerful field generators on the Titan flood the fleet boosters with a magnitude of extra power for their mindlinks. The fleet rallies around the Titan, its presence giving them hope against the 2:1 odds.
The Erebus fires-up it's direct-fire DD and vapourises a hapless carrier that was stationary. Friendly carriers start remote cap transferring and after a minute the DD goes off again. Because the Dread exited seige and got up to 50m/s it is barely scratched by the DD's power and limps across the battlefield aflame, leaving a trail of debris. Support carriers rush to put out the fires and shore-up it's ailing defences while AFs and HACs swarm in for the kill.
The cry goes out over comms "Cyno on grid! Cyno on grid" and a Leviathan lands on the battlefield. It instantly enters Titan Siege Mode and a POS shield goes-up around it, enveloping it's allies and protecting them from harm - but also taking them from the battle.
In response the Erebus sieges, and a POS-like shield goes up too. Its DD fires on the Leviathan. A solid hit that removes a chunk of its shields. Reflected energy cascades off the Leviathan's shields and the explosion vaporises sub-capitals nearby. Carriers on both sides start broadcasting for repairs as they take major damage. The nearby control tower registers the hit and modules blink offline as the structures shake. Sub-caps rush for the safety of the Titans shields with logistics desperately trying to rescue the crippled and raise the dead. Pods flee for the carriers and heavy carriers - the safety of a fresh hull and the chance to fight back.
The Leviathan fires back, denting the Erebus' siege shields. The massive gravitronic shockwave reflects off the shields and rips nearby ships apart. Pods a hundred kms away are shredded, interceptors are thrown off course and their MWDs burn-out from the distortion of space-time. Targetting locks are broken and the hardier sub-capitals survive but with heat damage to their modules.
Dreads tank the damage well and start responding once more to the FCs' primaries. Carriers lurk on the edge of the siege shields repping friendlies and each other. Every few minutes a DD fires and the sub-caps conducting hit-and-run assaults on carriers either scamper for cover or go down in flames.
When the Titans take the field, it eclipses even the Gods.
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Le Cardinal
Destructive Influence IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.23 12:02:00 -
[542]
Personally i think that CCP admitting they was a bit hasty on supercarriers is a good thing. With all the negative feedback on SC's they at least deserve a thumbs up for listening to the community this time.
Above poster: Nice "story" :) Actually the idea of Titans as mobile pos's would be cool. That would completely redefine their role on the battlefield.
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Zerakix
Minmatar LEAP Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.26 15:55:00 -
[543]
Originally by: Windryder Edited by: Windryder on 22/11/2009 22:57:35 I had a dream.
It was about EvE.
A Titan hot-drops into a fleet battle because the enemy has capital supremacy and their fighters are tearing the blue battleships apart. It starts-up its massive array of gang-warfare links and the advanced computing power, direct neural interface and powerful field generators on the Titan flood the fleet boosters with a magnitude of extra power for their mindlinks. The fleet rallies around the Titan, its presence giving them hope against the 2:1 odds.
The Erebus fires-up it's direct-fire DD and vapourises a hapless carrier that was stationary. Friendly carriers start remote cap transferring and after a minute the DD goes off again. Because the Dread exited seige and got up to 50m/s it is barely scratched by the DD's power and limps across the battlefield aflame, leaving a trail of debris. Support carriers rush to put out the fires and shore-up it's ailing defences while AFs and HACs swarm in for the kill.
The cry goes out over comms "Cyno on grid! Cyno on grid" and a Leviathan lands on the battlefield. It instantly enters Titan Siege Mode and a POS shield goes-up around it, enveloping it's allies and protecting them from harm - but also taking them from the battle.
In response the Erebus sieges, and a POS-like shield goes up too. Its DD fires on the Leviathan. A solid hit that removes a chunk of its shields. Reflected energy cascades off the Leviathan's shields and the explosion vaporises sub-capitals nearby. Carriers on both sides start broadcasting for repairs as they take major damage. The nearby control tower registers the hit and modules blink offline as the structures shake. Sub-caps rush for the safety of the Titans shields with logistics desperately trying to rescue the crippled and raise the dead. Pods flee for the carriers and heavy carriers - the safety of a fresh hull and the chance to fight back.
The Leviathan fires back, denting the Erebus' siege shields. The massive gravitronic shockwave reflects off the shields and rips nearby ships apart. Pods a hundred kms away are shredded, interceptors are thrown off course and their MWDs burn-out from the distortion of space-time. Targetting locks are broken and the hardier sub-capitals survive but with heat damage to their modules.
Dreads tank the damage well and start responding once more to the FCs' primaries. Carriers lurk on the edge of the siege shields repping friendlies and each other. Every few minutes a DD fires and the sub-caps conducting hit-and-run assaults on carriers either scamper for cover or go down in flames.
When the Titans take the field, it eclipses even the Gods.
This would be epic... I fail. |
James Detair
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Posted - 2009.11.27 03:45:00 -
[544]
I cant speak for everyone here but all i can say is I'm furious that my skilling to perfect my dread is now worthless... I can get use out of the drone skills in other ships but looking at Dread 5 hm don't see anything other than the Moros that the particular skill went for giving my 250% drone dmg bonus for. Seeing as i dont often have the luxury of being bored out of my mind to go into sieged. I now have a overpriced domi with a big target sign stamped on it... I know im rambling but seriously this particular nerf makes me furious. Going from being good at something to being just another is ridiculous in sieged it's not #1 in tanking or DPS anyways so taking away the drones dps and HP makes it what....... Balanced i think not.
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Andreas Kallesoee
Celestial Horizon Corp. United Corporate Ventures
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Posted - 2009.11.27 18:17:00 -
[545]
CCP can you please remove any referenc to the Fighter bombers and Supercarrier upgrades from the Dev blog as you have aprently sc****d the changes from dominion.
Thank you in advance......
okay who are taking bets wheather or not this will be changed before the first ?
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shalai
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Posted - 2009.11.30 05:43:00 -
[546]
I like most of the ideas that came up here, except for Super Carrier or mothership nerf.
One big problem: What do CCP do with all those 1000 pilots and corps that built one or several motherships for 20bill if reducing its pricetag to 10bill ? This is a huge problem. People spent alot of time researching, mining for that mothership.
The mothership is fine as it is, but it need a role. Therefore I see the role as a rescue station in space with a deployable shield.
It can be done like keeping a pos in its stomach and fuel, then link the POS to the siege module to deploy shield. Once siege link with POS is active, it runs for 10 min each cycle and ship cannot move.
A 200km buffer towards any anchored objects like station or stargate has to apply, as getting too close is a I win mechanics.
This allows fellow pilots to get inside shield, having normal carriers outside shield to rep any inside and get back into the fight.
If shield is shut down, the mothership and linked POS will go into reinforced, having the pilot logging out keeps the ship reinforced until fuel is out. This allows corp mates or alliance time enough to gather to save the ship.
This mechanic puts the mothership straight into battlefield where its supposed to be.
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Daelin Felagund
Caldari ZiTek
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Posted - 2009.11.30 15:11:00 -
[547]
Originally by: shalai One big problem: What do CCP do with all those 1000 pilots and corps that built one or several motherships for 20bill if reducing its pricetag to 10bill ? This is a huge problem. People spent alot of time researching, mining for that mothership.
"What does CCP do?" Why nothing, of course! EVE is a cold place, and CCP simply does not care because they do not believe they have to. (Never mind things like mission statements and so forth as are published on their home site.)
Trust me, I feel the exact same way wrt to my Phoenix based on what I've seen hereabouts, albeit that is not nearly the resource expenditure as MS pilots have.
I am curious about one thing, tho. The new Patch Notes - which I read most carefully, last night - do not seem to say anything about dreadnoughts which Nozh's devblog indicated was going to happen (save for corrections to the bonuses on the Phoenix and the Nag). Did they sneak the language into the notes in such a manner as to avoid notice?
Final note to CCP Hammerhead (and really all CCP personnel): Speaking as a former customer service professional in r/l, CCP's customer service is once again dramatically failing both publicly and visibly here, in the worst possible manner. You never, ever, under ANY circumstances allow the people who are paying for your livelihood to simply eat silence in response to their bringing forth genuine issues to you. Especially not in so public a manner. This is how you destroy your company - slowly, if you are so fortunate, but inevitably nonetheless. It's understood you are busy; but that simply is no excuse for not taking a moment - or delegating to someone (who should be wisely chosen) to take that moment - to brief your customers and conduct diplomatic correspondence at the absolute minimum. It does not have to be terribly long or involved, necessarily; but it DOES have to exist.
This is another reason why "customer service" is often called "customer care" - if you (CCP) don't care for your customer, how long do you suppose your customer will continue to care for you? Just a thought ... __________
Mongo, the Merciless Carebear and Frito Muncher Extraordinaire |
Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.11.30 18:20:00 -
[548]
Originally by: Daelin Felagund
Originally by: shalai One big problem: What do CCP do with all those 1000 pilots and corps that built one or several motherships for 20bill if reducing its pricetag to 10bill ? This is a huge problem. People spent alot of time researching, mining for that mothership.
"What does CCP do?" Why nothing, of course! EVE is a cold place, and CCP simply does not care because they do not believe they have to. (Never mind things like mission statements and so forth as are published on their home site.)
Trust me, I feel the exact same way wrt to my Phoenix based on what I've seen hereabouts, albeit that is not nearly the resource expenditure as MS pilots have.
I am curious about one thing, tho. The new Patch Notes - which I read most carefully, last night - do not seem to say anything about dreadnoughts which Nozh's devblog indicated was going to happen (save for corrections to the bonuses on the Phoenix and the Nag). Did they sneak the language into the notes in such a manner as to avoid notice?
Final note to CCP Hammerhead (and really all CCP personnel): Speaking as a former customer service professional in r/l, CCP's customer service is once again dramatically failing both publicly and visibly here, in the worst possible manner. You never, ever, under ANY circumstances allow the people who are paying for your livelihood to simply eat silence in response to their bringing forth genuine issues to you. Especially not in so public a manner. This is how you destroy your company - slowly, if you are so fortunate, but inevitably nonetheless. It's understood you are busy; but that simply is no excuse for not taking a moment - or delegating to someone (who should be wisely chosen) to take that moment - to brief your customers and conduct diplomatic correspondence at the absolute minimum. It does not have to be terribly long or involved, necessarily; but it DOES have to exist.
This is another reason why "customer service" is often called "customer care" - if you (CCP) don't care for your customer, how long do you suppose your customer will continue to care for you? Just a thought ...
The thought of the smallest population in eve not being catered to would lead to the "downfall of eve" is amusing really.
If i worked for ccp and had to put up with the ppl who have posted their whines in this thread- first thing id do is permaban anyone that was belligerent and/or insulting.
Seriously some of you need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and realize this is a game. A game you dont run btw. If you want total control of a game- feel free to design one.
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Daelin Felagund
Caldari ZiTek
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Posted - 2009.12.01 14:57:00 -
[549]
Originally by: Future Mutant The thought of the smallest population in eve not being catered to would lead to the "downfall of eve" is amusing really.
First, I seriously doubt it's the "smallest population." Secondly, you're ignorant of the fact it is one of the longest-term loyal ones.
But this aside, if all you are seeing is the mistaken notion that the customer service issue spoken of only exists in this capital ship topic, then you are sadly myopic to the fact that CCP's customer service is dramatically failing quite broadly aside from the poor job they've done on this singular issue. It is in fact wider than that.
I have personal experience of customer service issues leading directly to the downfall of a company (look up the VOIP provider ZingoTel, if you are so led); and service provided at that company was honestly more conscientiously and personally provided there than at CCP. Do not believe for a moment that poor service cannot harm and even bring down such entities.
Quote: If i worked for ccp and had to put up with the ppl who have posted their whines in this thread- first thing id do is permaban anyone that was belligerent and/or insulting.
Now you are being irrational. I understand how such a foolish reaction might be satisfactory to certain parties, at times; I've been there. But the only thing this would serve to do is compound your already serious customer service problem with an even more poorly considered and hot-headed response. It is FAIL of the highest order, where customer service is considered.
Quote: Seriously some of you need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and realize this is a game. A game you dont run btw. If you want total control of a game- feel free to design one.
You have somewhat of a point, here, in the original sentence. (The rest is simply more foolishness regurgitated.) All parties do need to calm down and seriously consider the issues involved without the emotional trappings. Very hard to do, but necessary for a substantial solution to be found. __________
Mongo, the Merciless Carebear and Frito Muncher Extraordinaire |
Darius Nikano
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Posted - 2009.12.02 02:11:00 -
[550]
I'm not all that clued up on capital ships in general, so I'm not sure how these changes are affecting people, but one thing. The fighter bombers look great, and I'm glad they've been added in, even if just for aesthetics. Please CCP make the fighter bombers pilotable for players, I so want to fly around in one of those >_<
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