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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Vincent Gaines
Dirt Nap Squad
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Posted - 2009.11.15 04:10:00 -
[571]
CCP you went from one end to the other.
On SISI I was swarmed by 3 SCs in the FFA. I was running a pretty lame tank. I dropped into siege and was swarmed by a mix of fighters and bombers. A HIC dropped by for good measure.
I was stationary and out of range/wrong weaponry (citadel torp fitted).
It still took them more than 7 minutes to take me down.
Anti-capital? Wut?
Increase drones back to 20. Keep EHP buff. Remove docking ability. keep original value.
In other words, go back to what you had last week. |
Oljud Zork
Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.15 04:48:00 -
[572]
Originally by: Vincent Gaines CCP you went from one end to the other.
On SISI I was swarmed by 3 SCs in the FFA. I was running a pretty lame tank. I dropped into siege and was swarmed by a mix of fighters and bombers. A HIC dropped by for good measure.
I was stationary and out of range/wrong weaponry (citadel torp fitted).
It still took them more than 7 minutes to take me down.
Anti-capital? Wut?
Increase drones back to 20. Keep EHP buff. Remove docking ability. keep original value.
In other words, go back to what you had last week.
I sign on this too!
Seriously CCP what are you thinking with? And donŠt pull any more crap about Target Painters it makes me sick just to bring up the subject.
Capitals are freaking huge compared to frigates and a TP on a capital is just nuts. Let alone the fact that a SiegeŠd Dread or TriageŠd Carrier are EWAR IMMUNE! donŠt mess with the siege or triage mods, they are just fine.
A week ago could an Aeon kill a SiegeŠd Revelation with 20 Fighter Bombers in 4ish minutes and that was a DPS worth to bring out the xMom from hiding in a POS. Now 7 minutes and 3 xMomŠs you just have to be kidding me!
Let alone the fact that Fighter Bombers can be killed either by other drones/smartbombs/support fleet are a certain way to handle the threat a xMom cause the opposing fleet. A dread canŠt loose its DPS unless you put nets on it and render its cap to deplete.
Regards
// Zork
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Dri Kulsane
Amarr Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.11.15 07:04:00 -
[573]
Originally by: Oljud Zork A dread canŠt loose its DPS unless you put nets on it and render its cap to deplete.
Regards
// Zork
And don't forget, our new friend at CCP has recommended to us xMom pilots to use a full rack of DCU's in order to get better DPS. Not going to have room there now for neuts and such
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.11.15 07:19:00 -
[574]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 15/11/2009 07:23:33
Like I've said in the other thread, if you want to reduce the number of drones/fighters/bombers, change the drone control bonus to +2 per level, but also give all supercarriers a 5% damage and hp bonus (10% for Nyx).
That will probably keep people from asking for the old +3 bonus and as a nice side-effect boost drone control units a bit.
18.75 (Nyx 22.5) effective drones is still a reduction, down from 20 (25), but I think it might be one people will stomach. It reduces lag and supercarrier sub-capital effectiveness.
Now if you adjust the base dps of 15 fighter-bombers (or 10 with increased FB bandwidth) to around 5600 (7000 with full bonus, 8400 on Nyx) I guess most players wouldn't complain anymore.
Have you considered adding a signature penalty to the siege and triage modules? Or maybe the explosion velocity formula needs some tweaking, so that sub-capitals aren't overly endangered by FBs.
Anyway, most importantly, the price of motherships/supercarriers should not be changed. It's a major slap in the face of your old and loyal playerbase, more than any stats rebalance or nerf. It's devaluating effort. That's even worse than pure ISK.
Keep them expensive, keep them out of stations.
If you want some new 'Assault-Carrier', then I'd like to suggest: - postpone the supercapital change - take the jump portal generator from the titan - give it to the motherships along with some super crazy damage absorption single resistance sphere that redirects blows of one damage type to the mothership (anti-DD mod) - increase mothership hp but slightly reduce dps - retain all current mothership specials. If necessary make them more useful - create a new tier 2 (Assault) Carrier which has the stats of the latest supercarriers (6bil, can dock, fighter-bombers), but with less hp (6-8 mil eff) and without EW immunity
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Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Frank McTeague
Caldari Shadow Warri0rs
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Posted - 2009.11.15 07:45:00 -
[575]
Originally by: ByFstugan Edited by: ByFstugan on 30/10/2009 06:07:44
Originally by: CCP Abathur A few quick updates:
Supercarriers will not be docking in Dominion. If this ever happens it will be the result of a very expensive infrastructure or outpost upgrade.
The Hel has had its hit points adjusted to reflect a primary shield tanking role.
All Supercarriers have had their base jump drive range increased from 4LY to 5 LY.
Docking: Plz don't just state "no docking" but instead motivate the reason (if U have anyone else than it seems hard for U to fix). And when that's done plz change your mind again, the ability to dock is a really good feature imo since being trapped in POS's is poop.
Size: As another thing I agree with those who wants Super Carriers bigger, perhaps not insane much larger than a regular Carrier, but so it's noticed there's something big on the field.
Active tank: Another VERY important comment imo; I'd like to see either an XXL-rep/booster for supercaps or an x00% effectivity to the regular capital reppers. Without that a regular carrier in triage get 4x more effective active rep than a Super Carrier, and the Super Carrier tanks will ONLY be about EHP, since active rep gives like nothing compared to that.
Implants: Since Super Carriers is REALLY expensive ships and EVE get's more and more a very deadly place for this behemoths (now with Titans/SC's who specilize in killing them also) the best way to go concerning implants should be to also make crystals make for shield tankers (or make an new Shield implant-set for Shield-HP-buff and make only crystals not work for capitals as it is).
Hel: A good move to adjust the HP on this. I got a small thought about it's new bonus to fighters. Isn't it more in Minmatars style to get extra speed to their fighters instead of an resist bonus? Anyone is fine by me, it's just a thought.
Something tells me you've taken a lot of special ed classes in your time.
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Zaisig Murakk
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.15 08:12:00 -
[576]
Originally by: SXYGeeK supercarries now get 1 extra drone per level as opposed to 3, with no damage buff to compensate ?
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Jaxx Blackfox
Minmatar Outlaw-Star Brotherhood of Outlaws and Miners
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Posted - 2009.11.15 10:15:00 -
[577]
When I logged into the test server yesterday and tried to launch my 25 fighters against a target only to max out at 15 I had thoughts of setting flame to the forums, but after reading the last several pages since the change took place I have come to a new light.
While I agree that the ability to drop 20 fighters with carrier lvl 5 and no DCU's is essential for a ship its size and cost I can also see where CCP is coming with making these ships over powered. Putting a limit to how many Fighter Bombers one can launch and leave the regular fighters/drones at their original limits would be a better middle ground then simple making it an overpriced tier 1 carrier. This could also compensate for its inability to dock but if you do allow it to dock then the current change of +2 Bonus seems fair.
The lowered price is something I won't fight if it was to come about. My goal in the game has always been to get into the Nyx and making it easier is certainly not something I would object to. I do think that it would be unfortunate to those who have already spent all the time and effort to get into one of these wonderful ships, I don't however agree with the compensation as it would cause an inflation increase like no other. On the flip side it would make it so that the ships are used more in battles and lost as a result. I believe a good compensation would be to give all current Super-Carriers free Platinum insurance with the pay out at 10 to 12 billion isk. This will compensate the current pilots for their initial investment into the ships without handing out a load of isk only to get the ships insured the second they dock and receive even more isk on their destruction.
In Summery:
Super-Carriers Unable to Dock: Leave the +3 Drone bonus but only allow Max 20 Fighter Bombers to launch. Everything else Unchanged from what it was.
Supper-Carrier Able to Dock: +2 Drone bonus across all drones. Decrease in cost of ship it is now a Tier 2 Cap ship not a Super-cap like Titan. Compensation to existing Super Carrier pilots in the form of Free Platinum Insurance with the payout at 10 to 12 Billion isk.
Just my Honest Opinion, Jaxx
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Zyleina Kzorvern
Coronene Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.15 10:54:00 -
[578]
Edited by: Zyleina Kzorvern on 15/11/2009 10:55:59 Of all the changes made, the one I find the hardest to understand is the build cost.
I can see reducing the number of drones if the dps was thought to be too high. But changing the build cost is a direct way for ccp to reduce the cost and increase the availability of a ship.
I can't see a good reason for it. People are already complaining of capital blobs. Now you want to make a 20+ million EHP, EW immune ship available to everyone. If they can't dock, numbers will go up, if you allow them to dock, numbers will really go up.
And then what? Supercarriers will be the new standard. Every fleet will need tons and tons of these to be competitive. My guess is that huge fleets of these ships will be so powerful that ccp will be forced to nerf them again in a year. They will probably loose their EW immunity, maybe have reduced HP, or even the ability to remote rep. Then you will ruin these ships forever.
Right now there aren't that many supercarriers around. I think I ready someone say the number is 300-400. That is a very small number compared to how many cap pilots are in game.
Don't reduce production costs and don't do reimbursements. You're just making everything even more complicated and creating new problems. If you are going to reimburse supercarrier pilots, you will need to reimburse a lot of other people for game decisions. And that is the last thing you need.
Keep the build costs the same, make small changes if you need to. I think the version you had before all these random and crazy changes was pretty well balanced. No one was complaining. Everyone who tried them out on the test server liked them.
So why make changes when everything is working so well?
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Oljud Zork
Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.15 12:09:00 -
[579]
Originally by: Kraken Kill If you go back to the Original Idea for SuperCarriers You dont need to impliment further fixes. ALL of your suggestions only cause further imbalance and require more fixing.
Allowing them to dock will create massive imbalance, if someone can afford a Carrier and Dread (which a massive number of people can do) you will see everyone have one of these ships and dock it up and pull it out. fleets of 50 motherships for luls easy- from each 0.0 side in regular fleets replacing the carriers they used to have.
The docking will mean that its safe to undock kill something, redock, repair undock etc- you nerfed the moros' drones for this reason so your reimplimenting it with the supercarrier, a ship with even more firepower and EHP? So you would need to fix the docking time for these ships- another fix required.
You have broken the fighterbombers- they only do half damage to dreadnaughts and to carriers moving they do vastly reduced amounts of damage. Using 15 of these bombers does about the same damage as a Dread, they are not anticapital ships what so ever. The claim that they can leave the field much sooner- in capital combat it can last an hour. an hour and bubbles will be everywhere. there will be no leaving the field. You cant leave the field anyway with your fighters on a target or they will warp off, or at least warp off once the target is down, then you would have to warp back in.
As i see it those who saved and grinded for the ship pre-patch, they were your veteren players, they put a lot of effort into it and play tested the ship on sisi. Right now its these vets who are less likely to fly the new version and you will find those who had no intentions of flying one getting one- because they can just put it in the station and its all cheap and chearful.
So that leaves the Titan as the end game ship- and in its current version its a POS orniment. A tool purely for bridging fleets. The damage is pointless to make it practical to use.I have no desire to sit in a pos and bridge people with a dedicated char now.
So I dont know whats going on at CCP HQ, but with 15 days to go these changes are really bizarre, Im still in denile over most of them, they surely cant go live because they are so bizarrely awful. They Break so much, the end game is removed and there is seemingly no point to much of anything anymore.
This Whole patch is a nerf to 0.0 . Fighterbombers should have 1500 Explo radius and 75ms Explosion Velocity on the Compact torpedos. Citadel Torpedo explo radious should also be around 1500.
1500 allows you to hit dreads at full damage and 75ms allows you to hit moving capitals at full damage. It would mean that support ships are still relatively unharmed. You should make the Supercarriers have 20 drones. Its about firepower relative to a carrier- Twice the firepower with conventional drones.
If the 20 Bombers do too much damage reduce the damage they do, two Dreads worth of damage is appropriate damage for these ships, 8000dps. So at lvl 5 Fighterbomber, divide 8000/20, 400 dps per fighterbomber at lvl 5, so 200 dps per bomber base. is it 15 second ROF for the torps? 3000 damage from each torpedo Base.
Sorry I had to remove some, the entire post are here.
Well I have said it before, and I say it again. The changes to the xMoms are not balanced. Please hit the emergency brake and release the changes to the xMom in Dominion 2.0 in Mars 2010 or whenever you had time to think this over...
If you want the xMom to be a capital killer it has to do at least the same damage as a Dreadnought! Compare the price and it should do a lot more dps then a dread...
Regards
// Zork
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Zaethiel
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.15 22:01:00 -
[580]
Edited by: Zaethiel on 15/11/2009 22:01:54 When they first added bombers to test i tried them and even with 20 i wasn't overly impressed with their damage vs capitals. It seemed pretty balanced as it still took a while to kill capitals esp if they siege. -----
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Kate Pole
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Posted - 2009.11.15 23:21:00 -
[581]
It basically comes down to this, as I see it.
What does CCP really want from Supper Carriers? A nice trophy ship that might get used in non gated plexes (at the most) or a real combat efficient ship that can contribute to a fleet battle or to repp stations or these new marker things coming out in Dom?
If its trophy ships that sit at a POS, then do this patch as is.
If it's a combat ship you want, boost the dps, keep the cost the same and keep the 20 fighter/FBs (or boost their dps). If it is true that multiple SCs takes 7 min or more to take down a single Dread in siege than it is not the anti anything you say you want it to be.
It's a simple question; What do you really want them to be? I await your answer as I am not going to put my nyx in the cooker tell you decide. thanks
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Zaethiel
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.16 00:42:00 -
[582]
Edited by: Zaethiel on 16/11/2009 00:43:49 They need to get on test and modify SC damage with bombers to a point where they are happy that 1 or 2 SC can kill a dread in siege with a tank in X amount of minutes or seconds. Not this im going to change SC by this much just bc without actually modifying the damage to a specific point where they can accomplish what they are meant to accomplish.
Also take into account how hard/easy it is for them to kill HICs and BS. Not only with Bombers but also with Heavies and sentries. -----
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Mike Yass
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.16 06:57:00 -
[583]
Originally by: Mike Yass The real problem with reducing the cost of motherships is it reduces the desire to gank them.
With the intended buff to tanking, they are essentially immune to subcaps. The change to price also affects how many caps you're willing to commit to kill one. At 15 bil/ship plus another 2-3b in fittings it's worth risking around ~15 dreads to take it out. At 6b per ship, it's worth risking ~5 dreads to take it out.
The increase to HP also drastically increases enemy response time. Currently supercaps die to dread fleets before repping triage carriers can undock. After the patch, the defender is going to get 3-4 minutes after the attacking dreads enter siege to rescue a super cap. This is a massive, massive increase in risk to the attacker. Unfortunately, the logic behind cap fleets is that you always deploy as many caps as possible, and that when you lose, you tend to lose everything. The result is that risk of killing a mothership goes way, way up, and with the price nerf, the reward of killing one goes way, way down.
The end result is that motherships will be ****ing everwhere, and no one is going to try and kill them. Your patch will eliminate a nice source of cap fights. Please don't do that.
I think this is relevant to this thread as well.
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Avatoin
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Posted - 2009.11.16 08:02:00 -
[584]
OMG I'm so slow. I just realized what CCP did. They reduced the number of Supercaps to just one (ie the Titan) and are making the supercarrier more like a tier 2 carrier instead of a supercapital. Its like the tier 1 carriers are basic support and logistics now while supercarriers are the DPS ships now.
From what I've read as long as the cost of a supercarrier is about the same as a dreadnaught then the changes will probably work out in the end. It will hurt alot for all those people who paid billions of isk to get the Moms but it will probably bring in more supercarriers to the battlefield a little on the same level as carriers and a bit closer to dreadnaughts.
Now if only the fighter's range was limited to the grid range of the carriers to prevent POS hugging then the transformation of carriers will be complete.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.11.16 10:19:00 -
[585]
It appears nozh came in nd ****ed on seleenese parade.
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=author&p=CCP%20Nozh
this is the guy who brought us the proposal for a carrier nerf two years ago which resulted in the largest forum rage ever
..
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.11.16 10:37:00 -
[586]
Originally by: Mike Yass
Originally by: Mike Yass The real problem with reducing the cost of motherships is it reduces the desire to gank them.
With the intended buff to tanking, they are essentially immune to subcaps. The change to price also affects how many caps you're willing to commit to kill one. At 15 bil/ship plus another 2-3b in fittings it's worth risking around ~15 dreads to take it out. At 6b per ship, it's worth risking ~5 dreads to take it out.
The increase to HP also drastically increases enemy response time. Currently supercaps die to dread fleets before repping triage carriers can undock. After the patch, the defender is going to get 3-4 minutes after the attacking dreads enter siege to rescue a super cap. This is a massive, massive increase in risk to the attacker. Unfortunately, the logic behind cap fleets is that you always deploy as many caps as possible, and that when you lose, you tend to lose everything. The result is that risk of killing a mothership goes way, way up, and with the price nerf, the reward of killing one goes way, way down.
The end result is that motherships will be ****ing everwhere, and no one is going to try and kill them. Your patch will eliminate a nice source of cap fights. Please don't do that.
I think this is relevant to this thread as well.
Great, I hadn't eve thought of it that way, this only makesit worse :P
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Lord Eremet
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Posted - 2009.11.16 12:11:00 -
[587]
If they become dockable then they can't keep that massive hitpoint boost - or they become overpowered in absurdum.
And if that happens I buy one
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Arzal
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.16 13:57:00 -
[588]
Don't make them dock able
Don't make them cheaper to produce
Put back the 20 fighter bombers
sort out their ability to hit caps, cause atm a non moving dreadnought is a pain to kill... oh and moving carriers, they are also a pain.
p.s love the hp buff, and if you did do what you see above, you would find alot more "super carriers" being used.
Thanks noza!
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Ruby Lionheart
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Posted - 2009.11.16 15:01:00 -
[589]
Originally by: Sokratesz It appears nozh came in nd ****ed on seleenese parade.
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=author&p=CCP%20Nozh
this is the guy who brought us the proposal for a carrier nerf two years ago which resulted in the largest forum rage ever
..
He just createt the second largest forum rage.
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R0ze
Exile Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.16 16:49:00 -
[590]
Originally by: Sokratesz It appears nozh came in nd ****ed on seleenese parade.
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=author&p=CCP%20Nozh
this is the guy who brought us the proposal for a carrier nerf two years ago which resulted in the largest forum rage ever
..
Besides if you look at http://www.eve-search.com/search/author/CCP%20Nozh and go through the pages - how can one man cover so many areas (supercaps / Agility / Tech3 / Blackops,bombers / Missiles / Speed and so on) ..
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Sarah Moonshine
The Maverick Navy IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.16 17:20:00 -
[591]
Edited by: Sarah Moonshine on 16/11/2009 17:21:01 I wouldn't be surprised if Zulupark (oh, hai!) is pulling the strings here. There's this disturbing pattern...
Edit: talk about the devil (ie, check sig). --
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The Economist
Logically Consistent
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Posted - 2009.11.16 17:21:00 -
[592]
Originally by: R0ze how can one man cover so many areas (supercaps / Agility / Tech3 / Blackops,bombers / Missiles / Speed and so on) ..
By being terrible in all of them?
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Criss AngeI
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Posted - 2009.11.16 18:56:00 -
[593]
Originally by: Buxaroo whine whine ***** ***** whine whine im quitting whine
poor you
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FawKa
Gallente Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.16 19:44:00 -
[594]
Originally by: Sokratesz It appears nozh came in nd ****ed on seleenese parade.
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=author&p=CCP%20Nozh
this is the guy who brought us the proposal for a carrier nerf two years ago which resulted in the largest forum rage ever
..
You already got my vote, just get enough to get CSM'd and kick butt for the Mom's
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Serena Ku
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.16 20:11:00 -
[595]
WHERE IS ABATHUR!?
The clock is ticking to Dominion launch...
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.11.16 20:26:00 -
[596]
Originally by: FawKa
Originally by: Sokratesz It appears nozh came in nd ****ed on seleenese parade.
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=author&p=CCP%20Nozh
this is the guy who brought us the proposal for a carrier nerf two years ago which resulted in the largest forum rage ever
..
You already got my vote, just get enough to get CSM'd and kick butt for the Mom's
Oh I bloody will
ps. tell your friends
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Severion Atarkos
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Posted - 2009.11.16 20:49:00 -
[597]
Edited by: Severion Atarkos on 16/11/2009 20:49:38 It's got to be a massive troll, I really don't see where CCP see this as a good change.
Sorry nozh but I don't think you've played the game enough to understand that a rack of dcu's/TP on a capital ship is not going to work.
On top of that the damage is worse and what once took one ms 4 minutes to kill (dread) now takes 7 minutes for three ms's to kill. Doesn't sound very anticapital shipish to me, what about you nozh???
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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr The Confederate Navy Forever Unbound
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Posted - 2009.11.16 21:59:00 -
[598]
Originally by: CCP Abathur A few quick updates:
Supercarriers will not be docking in Dominion. If this ever happens it will be the result of a very expensive infrastructure or outpost upgrade.
I'm very sorry to quote CCP on this, but thanks for lying to all of us on this. I sincerely hope your just screwing around on Si-Si for kicks and giggles and that your not going to implement Supercarriers docking in stations. Otherwise, remove the whole name of "supercap".
--Isaac Signature is now under construction: check back in a couple weeks.
AMAAR VICTOR!
"You just can't fix stupid"
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CrazzyElk
Big Shadows Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.17 00:34:00 -
[599]
Edited by: CrazzyElk on 17/11/2009 00:36:25 If CCP wants these ships to be in fleets and not just for ganks and lowsec games then I think these changes are hitting the spot.
The servers will never be able to handel +3 dorone if these things start to get more frequent flyer miles so people will just have to accept that if they are to be usefull ships in fleets they also have to get fewer drones.
The fighter bomber dps on a sieged dread seams to be ****, and that of course needs to be looked at but I presume it's being looked into.
Buildcosts isnt really sutch a concern for everyone not having one already. But if the ship is being made into something else then the current E-Peen pos hugger then I assume costs need to be adjusted as well.
Docking is and probably will be the make or break thing for these things. If you want them to be a frequent sight and see huge fleets of these things then it needs to be able to dock, if you just want it to be a curieuse plaything for people with to many accounts then by all means keep them out of stations.
Regardless of everything else I think the insurance should be removed. These things arent meant to be easily replaceable in either of the two forementioned versions of it.
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1nsan1ty
Darkwave Technologies Kahora Catori
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Posted - 2009.11.17 00:58:00 -
[600]
These changes sound fine to me, for a ship that is called Supercarrier (what a lame name..).
By the looks, it indeed is a t2 varient of a Carrier, and depending on the price cut, the insurance should be tweaked maybe (lower then t1, higher then t2 of course; make it t1.5 insurance!).
If I remember correctly CCP said that they want to make Motherships something huge and "wtfpwn", so be patient, and you'll get your Motherships back "soon" :D
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