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DarkSychon
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Posted - 2009.09.17 04:50:00 -
[1]
If your new to EVE or very old to EVE please post your opinions on this matter constructively.
Now i'm sure this has been addressed a million times before but my question here is do non mutual empire wars help the EVE community as a whole. The current issue that myself and many other people I know have with EVE is just how difficult it is to get started doing anything on a corp basis, without having a very large crew of experienced pvp pilots to defend yourself from empire wars. My tiny little newb based corp I have made is constantly under threat by much more compressed pvp corps that we really are no match against. The issue with this is that i can imagine that a whole bunch of other newbie corps or even non pvp based ones are having the problem of simply staging any kind of response to these threats. The common tactics of resisting war decs isn't effective or worthwhile to do the majority of the time.
-Relocate corp to farther area The issue with this is almost all the war corps which target us use location agents to simply track us down and hunt us there and sometimes moving to another area just provokes another war dec from a different corp. -Hire a Merc corp to deal with the war corp This issue is hard because most Merc corps charge way to much to effectively end the threat. -Disband the corp and start it again. While this works it's usually a very bad idea in the long run because you commonly loose a number of new players out of frustration and then once you rebuild it even under a different name you just get war decced again within the week. -Simply disband the corp and give up. This just makes you stop playing eve and is self defeating. Once you realize there's not much of a point to starting anything with a group of friends you really have no reason to play the "stay in station all day" game.
Now I know EVE is a pvp based game but when empire space is supposed to be a newb protected area, and you have people messing that up you have to think that this can't be good for any new player entering the world of eve. We have lowsec space we have faction war, and we have 0.0 space but do we really need in effect high level players camping the Starter zones. My suggestion is this and I hope I can hear some opinions on it.
Option A, non mutual corp wars should not allow for Empire pvp. This would hopefully encourage some new blood into the universe when there is at least a kiddie pool for starting your own swim team. Mutual wars, and alliance conflicts would be unaffected
Option B, Increase the starting fee or weekly fee increase for starting a corp war enough so that the simple loot form ships would in effect not be worth the time and effort.
As a Second opinion for posting this. EVE is starting to seem like a game that does not want new people to play it. Pvp is a healthy thing to have in a game but when you allow the older crowd to steal the starting players lunch money on every level with no defense but to sit in a corner and become bored you really are in effect just pushing new players away.
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Erichk Knaar
Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.09.17 05:04:00 -
[2]
Option C, contact Alekseyev Karrde in game to see if NOIR. can tailor a solution to your budget.
Option D, learn to fight, which can be a lot of fun, and will do more for you and game long run than the options the OP is offering. NOIR. can help with this too.
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
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Posted - 2009.09.17 05:04:00 -
[3]
war isnt for profit, its to kick the crap out of someone.
But you were on to something there, each week the cost should go up to continue the same war. this would allow small breaks for people to re-coop and get more money for the next one.
but as is, war dec system is fine for empire. --------------------------
WTB a sig, or moderation of my sig by all the hot CCP girls. |
MonwrathDisortium
Incarnation of Evil
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Posted - 2009.09.17 05:22:00 -
[4]
FIGHT
seriously, this comes up all the time and you honest and best option is to fight. Get in frigs and t1 fit them and fight, or if you cant afford frigs get in your newb ships and fight. You will learn and it will bring your corp together. You will have fun, the guys who deced you will get tired of killing frigs and newb ships and they will move on. Or if they dont move on then just keep fighting, they will eventually give up becuase their membership will get bored with it.
dont fly cruisers or anything of value, insure your ships, and use standard t1 fittings.
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Doddy
The Executives IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.17 06:26:00 -
[5]
You do realise that most empire corps have never been wardecced right? Even less have been wardecced to the point where they cant do anything. You should probably ask how to avoid getting wardecs rather than whine about them. What are you doing to attract them? Do you live in highly populated space? Do you live on a major trade route or mission hub? Do your pilots fly around afk in haulers with valuables on board? Do your pilots smacktalk? Do you or any of your pilots have a shady past that may be following you/them? Are your views of eve diametrically opposed to what the game actually is (empire is supposed to be a newb protected area? LOL).
When you got wardecced did you hide in a station and smack? Did you lose well fitted ships without inflicting any loss? Did you find out if they have other wardecs going and cooperate with their other targets? Did you find out if they have any enemies who might help you out just to spite them. Did you look for a start up merc corp who generally do early contracts for free? Did you ask yourself why your corp is so small and feeble after 2 months? Did you ever consider that a corp of noobs is a bad idea, who they going to learn from? Also as a two year old char and former goon (unless char is bought ofc) you should know how to deal with wardecs.
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Haakelen
Gallente Angels.
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Posted - 2009.09.17 06:36:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Doddy Do your pilots smacktalk? Do you or any of your pilots have a shady past that may be following you/them?
95% of empire wars. Unless there's a vengeance motivation, most empire targets are so mind-bendingly boring that all but the most desperate (or well paid) won't bother to engage in them.
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.17 08:19:00 -
[7]
Quote: empire space is supposed to be a newb protected area
Uhm, no?
Also what others said, contact me ingame if you need advise and tips.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.17 08:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: DarkSychon but when empire space is supposed to be a newb protected area,
Where did you get this idea from?
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.17 08:46:00 -
[9]
Originally by: DarkSychon Now I know EVE is a pvp based game but when empire space is supposed to be a newb protected area, and you have people messing that up you have to think that this can't be good for any new player entering the world of eve.
You're confusing "empire space" with "starter systems". There are 12 starter systems: one for each of the three schools for each of the three empires. These are the newb (semi)protected areas.
Empire, on the other hand, is everything from 0.1-sec and up, and it is certainly not meant to be a protected area. Not even highsec is supposed to be protected — it's called high sec, after all, not complete sec. The mere fact that we have wardecs and that ganking is allowed disproves your point that there is any protection except what you make for yourself.
The defining factor of highsec is rather simple: aggression comes at a cost in assets. You either pay the fee for a wardec, or you pay the fee of losing your ship. What you're proposing is a complete revamp of the entire purpose of highsec.
Quote: We have lowsec space we have faction war, and we have 0.0 space but do we really need in effect high level players camping the Starter zones.
For the record, a lot of things that are entirely legal in the rest of highsec are completely out of bounds in the starter zones — most notably canflipping and similar aggression-reversal games.
Quote: Pvp is a healthy thing to have in a game but when you allow the older crowd to steal the starting players lunch money on every level with no defense but to sit in a corner and become bored you really are in effect just pushing new players away.
The actual problem is that these starting players either (falsely) believe that the system will/should protect them, or that they (falsely) believe that they can't defend themselves, most likely because they (falsely) believe that EVE is like other games where even an army of "low-level" guys cannot even scratch a "high-level" character.
The solution to your problem is education, not revamping the game. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2009.09.17 08:54:00 -
[10]
Originally by: DarkSychon My tiny little newb based corp I have made is constantly under threat by much more compressed pvp corps that we really are no match against.
As I keep repeating in such topics: having a corp is a privilege, not a right. If you can't defend that privilege, it will be taken away eventually.
Go join a bigger corp which will protect you and teach you some stuff. When you are then ready to have your own corp (SP, ISK and experience wise) you are free to found your own corp, which you now might be be able to actually defend.
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Sabine Borgia
Amarr Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.17 21:04:00 -
[11]
Quote: Now i'm sure this has been addressed a million times before
Yes.
Stop spamming the forum with another useless thread then.
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Graelyn
Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2009.09.17 21:49:00 -
[12]
If you want safety, operate in a 'safety' starter NPC corp.
THAT'S WHY THEY'RE THERE.
You wanted to have a nnice shiny logo and a corp identity.
By doing so you stepped outside of the bubble. Accept this or perish.
This is where you fall down. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.09.17 21:58:00 -
[13]
In before the beating a dead horse gif
The OP (and many other empire losers) seems to be under the impression that high security space is almost a separate server that is only pve and you can go to low sec/0.0 if you want to pvp. You are wrong. If you don't like it then you can gtfo.
Originally by: CCP Whisper So you're going to have to do some actual thinking with regards to hull components and their capabilities instead of copying some cookie-cutter setup. Cry some more.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.09.17 21:59:00 -
[14]
Empire wars are a way for the rich and big to pick on the poor and small.
There has to be a better way to implement them.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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small chimp
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Posted - 2009.09.17 22:40:00 -
[15]
Usually on threads like this the OP forgets/fails to mention or doesn't know that he or his newbies smacktalked someone.
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OwlManAtt
Gallente Yasashii Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.09.17 23:04:00 -
[16]
Edited by: OwlManAtt on 17/09/2009 23:04:14
Originally by: Ghoest Empire wars are a way for the rich and big to pick on the poor and small.
There has to be a better way to implement them.
And for lowsec/0.0 corps to get at their enemies logistics/empire mission alts. --- Owl |
Dian'h Might
Minmatar Cash and Cargo Liberators Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.09.17 23:05:00 -
[17]
Originally by: DarkSychon incomplete list of ways to deal with wardecs
You conveniently left out "fight for yourselves". As I think I've posted in every other wardec thread I've com across: If your corp can't defend itself, then it has no business existing.
Most of my reasons for deccing a corp is because I feel like it's my job in eve to break up corps who don't deserve to exist.
If I ever dec a corp who fights back smartly (by smartly I mean non-pve fit ships and more tactics than bait smacking outside a station I'm afk in), I'll drop the dec and give them some pointers as to how they can improve. And I'd drop the dec even if they got stomped in every single engagement, just because they're willing to look up some decent ship fits and show they're willing to stick up for themselves without crying on the forums.
And I'd drop the dec if they hire some mercs who can actually do what they were hired to. Not necessarily because of not wanting to get killed by the mercs, but because the corp would be showing that they're willing to stick up for themselves.
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Hebby
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Posted - 2009.09.17 23:33:00 -
[18]
A corp that cannot protect itself does not deserve to exist. Being in your own corp is not a right, it is a privilege. If your corp cannot protect itself, find a corp that can.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.09.18 06:41:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ghoest Empire wars are a way for the rich and big to pick on the poor and small.
There has to be a better way to implement them.
No, usually they're a way for the small and skilled to pick on the large and terrible.
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2009.09.18 07:41:00 -
[20]
Originally by: DarkSychon
As a Second opinion for posting this. EVE is starting to seem like a game that does not want new people to play it. Pvp is a healthy thing to have in a game but when you allow the older crowd to steal the starting players lunch money on every level with no defense but to sit in a corner and become bored you really are in effect just pushing new players away.
This part of what Eve is. The only reason they pick on you is because they can. One day you too will be able to pick on someone because you can. It's up to you to join the ass hats or not. You may not be able to choose your wars, but you can choose your attitude towards them.
As others have said, fight them, yes you will loose, know that from the start and then any victory is triumph.
-Make sure your clones are up to date. -That when your ship is about to blow up, start trying to warp away, even when you can't, so that your pod will warp off. -Do not pay attention to their smack talk. A vet calling a new player a "noob" is like laughing at the sky because it is blue. If they thump their chest cause they can beat up noobs, then they're not really the elite PVPers they may claim to be. -Dying in PVP at a young player age is worth more than the ships you'd not loose. It's less expensive to learn PVP when you're a new player. In many ways, these guys are doing you a favor, learn from it. -Stick together in groups. This is an opportunity for bonding in your corp. Don't waste it. -Fight them in noob ships if ISK is a really big concern. They are free and don't drop loot that's worth anything. Yes, you'll loose fights, so what, it's internetz space ship cartoons and free ones at that. Most of these types of players are killmail *****s. They'll look so tough and elite with a killboard full of rookie ships. -If you do stand up and fight, you'll show you have more going for you than 90% of the new player corps that won't fight. You may be able to turn them friendly by sticking up for your selves. There's more respect top be had in trying than not trying. -Don't fly what you can't afford to loose. If you undock in it, consider it lost. If you dock safe again, free ship! -Utilize insurance. -Go to crime and punishment forum and ask if anyone wants to help, explain you're a corp full of new players and can not afford mercs, but sure could use a hand. But don't be afraid to get out there and fight, or help with intel.
-Last and most important, have fun, it is a game in the end.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
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Miraqu
Caldari Marquie-X Corp Atropos.
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Posted - 2009.09.18 08:05:00 -
[21]
Why does everyone start his own, undefended and underpopulated newb corp without research and starts to whine then?
Starting a corp is something for several veteran players who know what to do. You and your group should have joined a decent established corp.
You can still mission as group, you can still mine as group, you can still chat happily as group in TS/Vent/EveVoice and of course the ingame chat.
What would you have lost? Nothing. Except for a few days research about the available corps and their goals/members.
So stop whining please and either do think about it again or die quietly.
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Nathvas
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Posted - 2009.09.18 11:42:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Nathvas on 18/09/2009 11:45:52 Edited by: Nathvas on 18/09/2009 11:44:01 Edited by: Nathvas on 18/09/2009 11:43:10 Gonna have to tell you like the rest of the guys to adapt but I'll be a little more civil and friendly with it. Removing the wardec isn't something that should be done. I believe the devs left it in so that corps could settle difference threw military force that couldn't be solved dimplomaticly. Aka, your corp wanted to mine in Tash, the other guys corp wants to as well but not enough fields to share. You war dec them to get them to leave. Once they leave its dropped. So maybye its a little misused but a neccesarry part of eve. So here are my suggestions. 1. Fly smart. If your gonna haul something, use the Transport ships. They can either fly cloaked, or have bonuses to warp strength.
2. Warp stablizers. Use'm. If the ship isn't able to pvp, fit your ship with one. I know it saved more then a few of my mark 5 in lowsec/0 space. Amazing what one warp stablizer does.
3. Your buddies are your friends and love'm. If your flyng a hauler/freighter(shouldn't be flying freighters during wars but if you do for some reason) scouts are a bare minimun. Best scouts would be inceptors and throw away frigates.
4. Fight back but fight back smartly. Don't go flying 3 crusiers against 3 HACs. Thats plain suicide. But if you take 3-4 Frigates against a lone BC or a BS and Fitt them right, you can make'm sweat a little bit.
5. Research fittings, and watch how your enemy fights. I was able to fight a sabre and a crow at the same time cause I knew they nanoed their ships out. I managed to damage the sabre almost into structure, still able to get away with my ship, and yet the ship was a standard tech 1 vexor crusier, with mostly tech 1 stuff except for the drones which where tech 2 lights. Skills help, tech 2 helps but a proper ship fitting rules all.
6. Be ready to take losses. Thats all I can say. Its gonna happen so fly apporiapiatly. As the old saying goes, can't afford to lose it. Don't fly it.
There no universal fix for this, but doing some of the things I mentioned will help ease losses/the suckage.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.09.18 12:16:00 -
[23]
Well I have been part of a high sec ransom/merc corp in the past. For the most part its a joke. Its very easy to find just fly around high sec and find corps of fairly new players and stomp all over them. They either pay or they get killed and bullied for a weeks.
The system is even stupider when you think how Goons are able to war dec small corps and kill them with impunity.
Its a bad system.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Haks'he Lirky
Durgarnir
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Posted - 2009.09.18 12:24:00 -
[24]
It's a good mechanism to get rid of small useless corporations. Sorry.
If you cannot defend your assets (in this case your corp) then you should not have assets. This is the Eve way.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.09.18 13:02:00 -
[25]
Thats just stupid.
Most of these corps have no assets. They may be useless - but then all corps in EVE are useless(its a game).
Gankers cry that people stay in NPC corps. But the same gankers insist on having an open season on anyone who decides to start a corp.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Drago Salteri
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Posted - 2009.09.19 04:20:00 -
[26]
In Eve, as opposed to other MMO's, there is a risk reward factor. If you want the rewards of a concentrated group effort (corporation) in order to gain profit, you must be willing to either:
A- Fight to keep it
B- Learn some modi****of diplomacy in order to not attract the wrong attention
C- Be capable of logical thinking and leadership in order to move your corporation out of harm's way
On the other hand, coming on the forum to post "I'm not safe in hisec!" post # 544,678 is not helping your corporation. Not only does this not solve any of the problems you currently face, it paints your corporation as a pack of cowards who will fold at the slightest threat. Not the greatest campaign ad, is it?
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Jhon Collish
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Posted - 2009.11.21 11:58:00 -
[27]
Quote: Option A, non mutual corp wars should not allow for Empire pvp. This would hopefully encourage some new blood into the universe when there is at least a kiddie pool for starting your own swim team. Mutual wars, and alliance conflicts would be unaffected
As always the hardcore players answering the classic "whiner", "fight or die", answers yeah right, i do agree that wars should be mutual in empire space, or else dont exist at all, all other forms of pvp are more than enough.
For example for industrial oriented players they never will be able to organize and play in the market, they are forced to pvp want it or not, or stay forever and ever in npc corps to avoid the disruption of their operations.
And before you "hard core" player start "whining" if you want to figth so much go to 0.0m low space, faction wars, and leave industrials alone in empire space, they would make market more dinamic if they were allowed to play.
Someone said in this topic that "empire corps are not wardeced", lies, ive seen an ironic develop for this, ive watched "empire pirates corps" around, their objective is to harass all industrialists within empire space and they dont dare to go to low sec or null sec, funny isnt it?, of course they boast their kills as if they actually were something else.
Also no matter the corp, new players, and less skilled ones are ALWAYS are the first victims of any war, just for the hell of it, and take down of the numbers of the corp being attacked.
So i do agree with the stand of "fight if you want to fight, and leave me alone if i dont want to" as suggested by the author of this post, i vote Option A
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2009.11.21 12:11:00 -
[28]
Originally by: MonwrathDisortium FIGHT
seriously, this comes up all the time and you honest and best option is to fight. Get in frigs and t1 fit them and fight, or if you cant afford frigs get in your newb ships and fight. You will learn and it will bring your corp together. You will have fun, the guys who deced you will get tired of killing frigs and newb ships and they will move on. Or if they dont move on then just keep fighting, they will eventually give up becuase their membership will get bored with it.
dont fly cruisers or anything of value, insure your ships, and use standard t1 fittings.
...and then he realises that the average buffer-tanked neutral-RR station humpers don't really want to fight, and dock up at the first hint of a threat.
Originally by: Ghoest Empire wars are a way for the rich and big to pick on the poor and small.
There has to be a better way to implement them.
I partially agree with this. Wars don't have much effect on established entities who know about things like insta-undocks, undock timers, neutral hauler / freighter alts or aggro mechanics. They're most effective against inexperienced noobs, which doesn't seem quite right.
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky If you cannot defend your assets (in this case your corp) then you should join an NPC corp and set up your own chat channel. This is the Eve way.
Fixed. But aren't we meant to be encouraging people to move to player corps? Whoops.
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Zartanic
Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.21 12:22:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Zartanic on 21/11/2009 12:24:07
I'm a self confessed Carebear (most of the time) but:
1. Although I have spent a lot of my time in one man corps I have never been wardecced or even threatened.
2. Its a PVP game. Learn to PVP or use one of the numerous ways you can defend yourself. EVE is supposed to be dangerous at all times, if you can't accept that you're in the wrong game. Hi sec has NEVER been sold as safe. In my opinion it's too safe as it is.
3. Join an NPC Corp and use a common channel to communicate. If you want a Corp you have to earn the right to run it effectively and be able to defend it.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.21 12:29:00 -
[30]
Wardec mechanisms are horribly broken. It is basicly only used to wardec corps which cant fight back, and if they do fight back the wardeccers dock up. Wardecs should be used because of economic reasons and similar stuff. Wardec people because they sell same stuff as you do on market, they mine in belts where you want to mine, they smacked you, etc. But right now wardecs are just pay to grief corporations that cant realisticly fight back, or just camping some random station like in jita/amarr/etc to kill haulers from 0.0 alliance that you wardec, and making sure whatever happens you dont get in a fight where you dont outgun the opponent 10:1.
Wardeccing should have far more risks involved, like support in game to get mercs to help your side, and then also make sure that the crappy station games cant happen anymore. Or when you deck another corp the wardec is only over when they also agree it is over, if they dont it will continue indefinately (deccers wont have to pay for it then, but neither do the ones that were initially decced).
What to do: DONT GET KILLED. That just is it, the only thing you can do is bore them to death. Not logging in is a possibility, if you do want to continue playing move to quiet systems where you can easily keep an eye on local and dock up as soon as red enters. Just dont get killed.
What not to do: Fighting back, that is just for a corp with inexperienced pilots the worst thing you can possibly do. A few rifters and rookie ships wont kill an abaddon sitting on a station with few neutral guardians as support. Only result is that you lose ships, the deccers like that, and let the wardec continue. If you think you can win a fight it is probably a trap, since 90% of the empire wardeccers really make sure they never risk anything, because pvp is all nice and fun, until you would actually risk to lose a ship.
When you really got the stupid idea in your head to fight back, at least fill half the fleet with ewar (tracking disruptors and ECM). But dont do stupid things where you lose ships, because that only increases the length of a wardec and you are never going to kill a few BS camping a station with neutral guardian support when just some inexperienced pvp'ers.
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