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Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente Eleutherian Guard
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Posted - 2009.09.22 13:29:00 -
[1]
As I laid in bed last night, these three words came in my mind. These three words sum up three of the major nation-states of our world, the Amarr Empire, the Minmatar Republic and the Caldari State. I lay trying to think of one for the Gallente, but in the end I supposed that our diversity extends to ideological diversities too, impossible to pin one down like the others.
I compared these terms together and, in the end, they all mean the exact same thing. They are both capable of enormous good, and enormous evil.
Now, the Amarr certainly don't have a monopoly on God, religion or monotheism. I am a religious believer myself, so this isn't going to be another God bash by another space atheist. No, it is the simple fact that you can justify any action if you slap 'God' into the equation. This is probably stating the obvious, but now look at duty. The pilots of the State Protectorate have justified their conquest and subjugation of the sovereign people of the Federation by saying how it was their "duty". Maybe not the conquest bit, but the capturing of tactical sites and securing of their own. Many a honourable STPRO pilot stated it was their 'duty', but I'm sure they never expected an outright annexation of the former systems. Where the Amarr say the subjugation of the Minmatar and other races is "for God", the Caldari say how their subjugation of the Gallente people is "for Duty". Am I wrong?
Now the Minmatar and their eternal, never-ending revenge quest to liberate their shackled brothers and sisters from slavery. In the name of this, freedom, emancipation, whatever you want to call it, they can justify a great many things. Isn't it ironic that to rescue slaves from an Imperial transport, you probably end up killing more souls in the process? No, of course it isn't, because those who died aren't your Matari brethren, right? Many Matari freedom fighters would willingly harvest through thousands of Amarrians to save their brethen. You need look no farther than Du'uma Fiisi. Again, like Duty, like God, the Matari can justify anything they want if it is for this goal of liberation.
So, in the end, what is the difference between the Matari, Caldari and Amarr? All fight for their people within various shades of grey, hidden behind this one collective synonym.
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.09.22 13:44:00 -
[2]
* The Cosmopolite chuckles...
I am not sure why you found it so difficult to think of a word to sum up the Gallente state given you so blithely did so with the other nation-states and I have to laugh at your suggestion that the Federation alone is so diverse it is not possible.
If you're going to use the framing concept of selecting a word to sum up a nation-state, what say you try populism on for size? We've seen most graphically, more than once, that as long as it is popular the Federation can justify anything.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Codo Yagari
Epitoth Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.22 13:51:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Codo Yagari on 22/09/2009 13:53:18
Seriphyn Inhonores, if I may say so: Well put indeed!
If I may comment, it is important that we do not let our minds get stuck in a conception that "I am Amarrian", or "I am Caldari" etc., but we must honour the fact of the past, that we all stem from the same origin.
More important it is to see what kind of moral opinions we cling to. Certainly, a just Amarrian and a just Minmatarian have more in common than 2 brothers of the same family; the one a saint and the other a deceiver?
Codo Yagari Epitoth Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Empress Jamyl Sarum I |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.22 13:52:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 22/09/2009 13:53:43
Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores
Now, the Amarr certainly don't have a monopoly on God, religion or monotheism.
Actually we pretty much do.
Amarrians have religion, others have mindless pagan superstition.
You're welcome to cast off your beliefs and join us in the proper worship of God, though.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Sky Grunthor
Minmatar Conflagration. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.09.22 14:19:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Sky Grunthor on 22/09/2009 14:19:36
Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores
Now the Minmatar and their eternal, never-ending revenge quest to liberate their shackled brothers and sisters from slavery. In the name of this, freedom, emancipation, whatever you want to call it, they can justify a great many things. Isn't it ironic that to rescue slaves from an Imperial transport, you probably end up killing more souls in the process? No, of course it isn't, because those who died aren't your Matari brethren, right? Many Matari freedom fighters would willingly harvest through thousands of Amarrians to save their brethen. You need look no farther than Du'uma Fiisi. Again, like Duty, like God, the Matari can justify anything they want if it is for this goal of liberation.
Revenge? You apparently don't know the meaning of the word. Liberation is not revenge. You have in essence equated the enslaving of my people as morally equivalent to the liberation of my people. You, sir, are an idiot. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor |
Vikarion
Caldari White Rose Society
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Posted - 2009.09.22 14:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sky Grunthor
Revenge? You apparently don't know the meaning of the word. Liberation is not revenge. You have in essence equated the enslaving of my people as morally equivalent to the liberation of my people. You, sir, are an idiot.
Actually, unless we consider there to be some sort of moral code handed down by a superior being for all of us to follow, then he is correct.
Slavery might be cruel, or at least unpleasant, from the perspective of the slave, but that does not mean that slavery is wrong. Then again, that also goes for all of the Amarr claims to "good". If it is only we humans, then why should we accept anyone's definition of "right" and "wrong" above that of another?
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Codo Yagari
Epitoth Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.22 14:54:00 -
[7]
What is "right" and what is "wrong"?
I would suggest it is just a matter of being honest.
Empress Jamyl Sarum I |
Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente Eleutherian Guard
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Posted - 2009.09.22 15:00:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Seriphyn Inhonores on 22/09/2009 15:00:33
Originally by: The Cosmopolite * The Cosmopolite chuckles...
I am not sure why you found it so difficult to think of a word to sum up the Gallente state given you so blithely did so with the other nation-states and I have to laugh at your suggestion that the Federation alone is so diverse it is not possible.
If you're going to use the framing concept of selecting a word to sum up a nation-state, what say you try populism on for size? We've seen most graphically, more than once, that as long as it is popular the Federation can justify anything.
The Cosmopolite
Aha! Populism indeed. However, capsuleers have not demonstrated populism when they go about their duties. State pilots say how "it's our duty", Amarr pilots say how "it's for God", Matari pilots say how "it's for our brothers". Federal pilots have not historically gone "it's for the majority".
The ILF for example, their view is certainly not majority. That said, it could be argued the EL-G is populist, as we are aiming to serve the people first.
And thank you, M. Yagari, and indeed, if someone is honest and sincere in their beliefs, it is very difficult to paint them as 'villainous'.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.09.22 15:11:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 22/09/2009 15:11:58
Originally by: Codo Yagari What is "right" and what is "wrong"?
I would suggest it is just a matter of being honest.
I would have thought that the Scriptures would be a decent guide to the nature of right and wrong.
Or are you seriously suggesting that it's perfectly acceptable to be a murdering psychopath as long as you're honest about it?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Jaratsri
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.09.22 15:23:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 22/09/2009 15:11:58
Originally by: Codo Yagari What is "right" and what is "wrong"?
I would suggest it is just a matter of being honest.
I would have thought that the Scriptures would be a decent guide to the nature of right and wrong.
Or are you seriously suggesting that it's perfectly acceptable to be a murdering psychopath as long as you're honest about it?
But being honest about it while having your "holy scriptures" with you as you lay waste to thousands of lifes is alright then ?
Honestly, this is like a bad Caldari comedy show.
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Sasim Kathul
Amarr Royal Fleet Auxiliary Collegium Amarria
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Posted - 2009.09.22 16:15:00 -
[11]
What is "right" and what is "wrong"? Well, I for my part say: What is true is right. What do I mean with that? It is that in realization of my environment I can attain knowledge of it. Example: I am a human. The thing just in front of me looks just like me, talks like me etc. So it must be a human as well. This is true by the boundaries of my reasoning. So, for the ethics: I donŠt want to be hurt. So I can propose this goes for the other thing I call "human" as well because it is true that I donŠt want to be hurt for my part. So I canŠt hurt the other "human" without doing harm to what is true for it is true that I and the other, we both, donŠt wanŠt to be hurt. -Lord Sasim Kathul, Holder of the Empire
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Graelyn
Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2009.09.22 17:03:00 -
[12]
What the hell is that nonsense?
This is where you fall down. |
Jakiin
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Posted - 2009.09.22 17:52:00 -
[13]
Very Interesting, Mr. Inhonores. I have always thought that the Caldari sense of Many before the Few did seem similar to our own devotion to God, and you put it quite adequately.
For the Gallente, however, the one-word summary could very likely be 'Freedom', being in a far more general sense than the Matari 'Emancipation'. While the Matari attempt to emancipate their brethren, the Gallente seek to free societies from restrictions.
Of course I'm opposed to both, but it is something to think about.
Originally by: Graelyn What the hell is that nonsense?
Assuming you refer to the one above you: I'm human. I don't want to be hurt. He's human. He probably also doesn't want to be hurt. Lt's not hurt eachother.
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The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.09.22 17:57:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores
Aha! Populism indeed. However, capsuleers have not demonstrated populism when they go about their duties. State pilots say how "it's our duty", Amarr pilots say how "it's for God", Matari pilots say how "it's for our brothers". Federal pilots have not historically gone "it's for the majority".
The ILF for example, their view is certainly not majority. That said, it could be argued the EL-G is populist, as we are aiming to serve the people first.
Well, I find it hard to consider the ILF, of all people, as an indicative example of 'Federal pilots'. On the other hand, I can recall numerous avowedly Federation-loyalist capsuleers invoking 'democracy' as a justification which, last I was aware, amounts to saying 'it's for the majority'.
* The Cosmopolite shrugs and smiles...
However, I won't press the point, seeking a single word to sum up nation-states and their motivations seems a limited form of analysis when all is said and done. I merely found it odd that, curiously enough, the Federation was being held to be immune to such analysis.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.09.22 18:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jakiin While the Matari attempt to emancipate their brethren, the Gallente seek to free societies from restrictions.
I could be quite wrong but I fancy some Caldari, Intaki and Jin-Mei pilots would take a different view. However, I'm sure they'll speak up for themselves if so and refrain from further comment.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Sky Grunthor
Minmatar Conflagration. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.09.22 18:09:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Sky Grunthor on 22/09/2009 18:11:34 Inhonores' premise is absurd as it doesn't even hold up to the light of internal logic. Does the Amarr devotion to their god give them the excuse or right to do anything? No of course not. If it did then they would have the right to preach heretical theologies without consequence within the empire. Does the Caldary duty give them the right to sit around all day and wiggle their rear ends at each other? Does matar emanicpation give us the right to go about and enslave all Amarr? None of these persuits bestow the justification or right to do 'Anything' as he proposes.
This clever attempt at equivalence is absurd in the highest. It has no weight. ------------------------------------------------- Search: Sky Grunthor |
Sasim Kathul
Amarr Royal Fleet Auxiliary Collegium Amarria
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Posted - 2009.09.22 18:12:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jakiin
Originally by: Graelyn What the hell is that nonsense?
Assuming you refer to the one above you: I'm human. I don't want to be hurt. He's human. He probably also doesn't want to be hurt. Lt's not hurt eachother.
Graelyn, I hope JakiinŠs words have been easier to understand than mine. The Empress shall shield you. -Lord Sasim Kathul, Holder of the Empire
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3ll3
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.09.22 18:44:00 -
[18]
Edited by: 3ll3 on 22/09/2009 18:45:26
Originally by: Rodj Blake Amarrians have religion, others have mindless pagan superstition.
Mr Blake If I may take a small sliver of your most valuble time to say that while you worship a God, the God of your people tehre very well could be that there is only One God, how ever it would be Logical to Conclude just because others Claim to have Gods of their own does not make it Superstitious or No So, Creation is Infinite and filled with Unlimited Possibilities.
If this is the case then it would be possible that there are more than one God of Goddess and that Your God could be the source from which other Deities came from.
It is all so Fair I think if not Logical to Concluded that Mr Inhonores is correct in saying Amaar does not hold Monopoly on God, Religion or Monotheism.
Of cource this is just thought that occured to me and I Mean No Offence To You and Apologise if any is Taken.
#3ll3's Bio |
Daria Yagari
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Posted - 2009.09.22 19:24:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Daria Yagari on 22/09/2009 19:24:03
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Codo Yagari
Epitoth Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.09.22 19:30:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 22/09/2009 15:11:58
Originally by: Codo Yagari What is "right" and what is "wrong"?
I would suggest it is just a matter of being honest.
I would have thought that the Scriptures would be a decent guide to the nature of right and wrong.
Or are you seriously suggesting that it's perfectly acceptable to be a murdering psychopath as long as you're honest about it?
No, but if the psychopath is honest about it, he knows he is wrong.
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Havohej
Minmatar Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.09.22 19:46:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores Many Matari freedom fighters would willingly harvest through thousands of Amarrians to save their brethen. You need look no farther than Du'uma Fiisi.
And? What of it?
"You can still steal their stuff." - CCP Explorer |
Vendrin
Caldari Veto.
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Posted - 2009.09.22 21:45:00 -
[22]
The difference? It should be obvious, the choices we make define who we are. _______________________________
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Sinti Vailatti
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.09.23 03:31:00 -
[23]
Gallente democracy usualy means you boys think you can dictate culture to the rest of us.
It's ok. The galaxy looks better through Gallente eyes than most others.
Fight for God, fight for Freedom, Fight for Duty...are you ready yet to fight for us all?
I've heard such good things about you.
"Why donÆt you come in from the cold, To make an unlikely alliance with me? Ay, the Infidel is me."
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Mort Eveson
Gallente Intaki Liberation Front
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Posted - 2009.09.23 18:26:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Mort Eveson on 23/09/2009 18:29:04
Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores The ILF for example
I find it mildly ironic that you chose a corporation attempting to free their people from Gallente government as a possible example of Gallente ideology. Perhaps it is difficult to sum up the Gallente simply because they do not have the direction, the determination, of the other nations. You see "God, Duty and Emancipation" as reasons but perhaps they are instead rallying calls. The Amarr join together for their God, the Caldari join together for their duty and the Minmatar join together for their brothers' freedom. The Federation has no such rallying point, it no longer has an ideal and it could explain its fragmented nature.
I wont dive into the ethical and metaphysical debates going on about right and wrong and the nature of God, but will leave that to others who have considered it for longer.
Mort ""
Visit us on http://www.ilfcorp.com/ |
Casiella Truza
Back Alley Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.09.24 00:52:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores
Now the Minmatar and their eternal, never-ending revenge quest to liberate their shackled brothers and sisters from slavery. In the name of this, freedom, emancipation, whatever you want to call it, they can justify a great many things. Isn't it ironic that to rescue slaves from an Imperial transport, you probably end up killing more souls in the process? No, of course it isn't, because those who died aren't your Matari brethren, right? Many Matari freedom fighters would willingly harvest through thousands of Amarrians to save their brethen. You need look no farther than Du'uma Fiisi. Again, like Duty, like God, the Matari can justify anything they want if it is for this goal of liberation.
First of all, if you think "revenge" is the same thing as "liberation", you have no business talking about synonyms to anybody.
Second, you make the assumption that all lives have equal value to everyone. This is false on its face or you wouldn't be at war.
Third, your reductionist approach makes the baby Sanmatar cry.
I really hope this isn't the best example of what the FDU have to say for themselves. -- EVE Blog EVE Twitter |
Natalcya Katla
Naqam Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.09.24 04:07:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Natalcya Katla on 24/09/2009 04:09:53
Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores This is probably stating the obvious
This little snippet sums up your entire argument. What you essentially seem to be saying is that "people draw on various ideas to justify harmful actions against other people, but in the end, these justifications are just excuses for something they would have done anyway".
This is...ancient news, Inhonores. As old, I would imagine, as the lingual concept of "justification" itself.
So, where are you actually going with this? Do you mean to say that the phenomenon of justification is an undesirable element in social interaction? If so, what do you propose to do about it?
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Jakiin
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Posted - 2009.09.24 04:19:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Jakiin on 24/09/2009 04:20:04
Originally by: Natalcya Katla This little snippet sums up your entire argument. What you essentially seem to be saying is that "people draw on various ideas to justify harmful actions against other people, but in the end, these justifications are just excuses for something they would have done anyway".
This is...
So, where are you actually going with this? Do you mean to say that the phenomenon of "justification" is an undesirable element in social interaction? If so, what do you propose to do about it?
Actually he is going into the more specific area of 'These are the excuses which the State, Republic, and Empire use for justification. All are equal in that regard, no more or less good or evil.'
It's an interesting fact that most tend to overlook. The Freedom Fighters which constantly say the Amarr are only using God as an excuse while they do equally terrible things in the name of Emancipation or Freedom come to mind, particularily. Second to come to mind are my Brothers and Sisters in the Faithwho refuse to consider the Matari position in this, though.
It might seem obvious upon reflection, but when was the last time you saw someone say "You fight for Freedom, I fight for God, who's right and who's wrong is only subjective." I'm sure it wasn't nearly as recent as the last time you heard "I fight for God, you heathen!" followed by "I fight for Freedom, you fascist!".
Mr. Inhonores doesn't need to do anything about this, the simple idea that someone might actually consider the weight of these words who hadn't before is the possibility of a difference being made already.
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Natalcya Katla
Naqam Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.09.24 06:10:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jakiin Mr. Inhonores doesn't need to do anything about this, the simple idea that someone might actually consider the weight of these words who hadn't before is the possibility of a difference being made already.
As long as the excuse follows the intention, the practical consequence of such a realization is zero.
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Jakiin
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Posted - 2009.09.24 06:19:00 -
[29]
Philosophy is a key component in advancing society, by creating realizations it does make a difference. Will many if not most go back to what they were doing before? Maybe. But as there is no way to change this, to directly alter the nature of us, it is all that can be done.
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Racleon
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Posted - 2009.09.24 06:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jakiin Philosophy is a key component in advancing society, by creating realizations it does make a difference. Will many if not most go back to what they were doing before? Maybe. But as there is no way to change this, to directly alter the nature of us, it is all that can be done.
Nicely said Jakiin and I agree. Allow me to expand on what you said. Its essential that everyone be able to look past the limitations that they have created and contiunes to restrain their own understanding of themselves and those around them.
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