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Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
62
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 18:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
So instead of discussing subjective theory, let me express a scenario - as close to factual as possible.
I am an industrialist in game - I want to make money by making stuff and selling stuff. The "sandbox" allows this. To perform this I must have a way of making stuff and also making a profit so I can pay for plexes for my characters and purchase components to make into stuff. My preferred method of making stuff is by erecting a POS - a large one, a Minnie POS. I need to sell my stuff to the masses and the most cost effective location is Jita - so where is the best place to erect my POS? IN NULL_SEC OF COURSE. Sadly not oh gentle reader - because it would not be profitable - and the cost of PLEXes is high so I must maximize my profits. So I put up my POS in hi-sec - fairly close to this major hub. Now I need fuel to maintain this method of gameplay - where do I go to get this? IN NULL_SEC OF COURSE. Again - we are not on the same page - I need to get the ice in hi-sec because it is cost effective and I prefer to do it alone as I cannot afford to share it. So - a Metropolis ice bearing system gets the attention of my ice-miner. And I get ganked ....
Because the situation has been created that means several variables (hi-sec, POS structures, fuel requirements, location of Jita, type of gameplay) I have no choice about where I go to optimize my profits.
So for the casual player, the one that does not like large groups or never feels the need to be hampered by sitting in or creating a supercap or station - why do I need null-sec? And why do I need to be ganked?
In short ,YOU have created my dependency and now you want to punish me for it? That is griefing...
I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Disregard That
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 18:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Klandi wrote:So instead of discussing subjective theory, let me express a scenario - as close to factual as possible.
I am an industrialist in game - I want to make money by making stuff and selling stuff. The "sandbox" allows this. To perform this I must have a way of making stuff and also making a profit so I can pay for plexes for my characters and purchase components to make into stuff. My preferred method of making stuff is by erecting a POS - a large one, a Minnie POS. I need to sell my stuff to the masses and the most cost effective location is Jita - so where is the best place to erect my POS? IN NULL_SEC OF COURSE. Sadly not oh gentle reader - because it would not be profitable - and the cost of PLEXes is high so I must maximize my profits. So I put up my POS in hi-sec - fairly close to this major hub. Now I need fuel to maintain this method of gameplay - where do I go to get this? IN NULL_SEC OF COURSE. Again - we are not on the same page - I need to get the ice in hi-sec because it is cost effective and I prefer to do it alone as I cannot afford to share it. So - a Metropolis ice bearing system gets the attention of my ice-miner. And I get ganked ....
Because the situation has been created that means several variables (hi-sec, POS structures, fuel requirements, location of Jita, type of gameplay) I have no choice about where I go to optimize my profits.
So for the casual player, the one that does not like large groups or never feels the need to be hampered by sitting in or creating a supercap or station - why do I need null-sec? And why do I need to be ganked?
In short ,YOU have created my dependency and now you want to punish me for it? That is griefing...
Because CCP made all your decisions for you.
Consider producing something you can make in safer space.
It's a sandbox. You don't have to make your castle where the dumb kid peed.
Honest. |
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
70
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 18:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
How many hours a week do you play?
How many accounts do you have?
What makes you think you are entitled to free Eve? |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
62
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 18:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
Wrong - CCP made the game YOU forced me to play this way so YOU are to blame I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking |
Bossy Lady
Aliastra Gallente Federation
22
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 18:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Klandi wrote:So instead of discussing subjective theory, let me express a scenario - as close to factual as possible.
I am an industrialist in game - I want to make money by making stuff and selling stuff. The "sandbox" allows this. To perform this I must have a way of making stuff and also making a profit so I can pay for plexes for my characters and purchase components to make into stuff. My preferred method of making stuff is by erecting a POS - a large one, a Minnie POS. I need to sell my stuff to the masses and the most cost effective location is Jita - so where is the best place to erect my POS? IN NULL_SEC OF COURSE. Sadly not oh gentle reader - because it would not be profitable - and the cost of PLEXes is high so I must maximize my profits. So I put up my POS in hi-sec - fairly close to this major hub. Now I need fuel to maintain this method of gameplay - where do I go to get this? IN NULL_SEC OF COURSE. Again - we are not on the same page - I need to get the ice in hi-sec because it is cost effective and I prefer to do it alone as I cannot afford to share it. So - a Metropolis ice bearing system gets the attention of my ice-miner. And I get ganked ....
Because the situation has been created that means several variables (hi-sec, POS structures, fuel requirements, location of Jita, type of gameplay) I have no choice about where I go to optimize my profits.
So for the casual player, the one that does not like large groups or never feels the need to be hampered by sitting in or creating a supercap or station - why do I need null-sec? And why do I need to be ganked?
In short ,YOU have created my dependency and now you want to punish me for it? That is griefing...
Don't be ridiculous. Gank risk is a part of your cost of doing business. If, after factoring that risk, you're better off operating somewhere else, then so be it.
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
baltec1
1340
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 18:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
As a high sec Industrialist with a large POS several jumps outside of Jita who also produces their own fuel I can safely say HTFU. Its not griefing, not by a long shot. |
Frederick Sanger
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
113
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 18:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maybe you should move to null sec. Or just continue with your bad posting, poor hypothetical scenarios and dumb conclusions. Whatever. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
990
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
you could always buy the fuel from market (though, admittedly, expensive)... |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
631
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
If you have a highsec POS you deserve to suffer infinitely and there is nothing someone can do to you in-game that isn't totally justified. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
7726
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Klandi wrote:In short ,YOU have created my dependency and now you want to punish me for it? That is griefing... Nope.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Savage Angel
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
64
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Posted - 2012.06.06 19:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Any sandbox has rules or it would not exist. The rules CCP has put in place allow ships to be destroyed anywhere at any time, with different repercussions for different places. For a player-driven economy to work, this is necessary, as competition must include a way to harm the competitor.
You can argue the cost of harming a competitor in Hisec is too low or too high, but it will always remain in the game. You of course can apply any word you like to describe it, but the ones that matter do not consider it an actionable offense. |
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Maybe guns for hire can be a reality now. How about spliting some profit? |
Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
192
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
Of course it is griefing.
Thing is, EVE allows griefing. "I must break you." |
Dyvim Slorm
MNU Operations Luna Sanguinem
28
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Posted - 2012.06.06 19:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bossy Lady wrote: Don't be ridiculous. Gank risk is a part of your cost of doing business. If, after factoring that risk, you're better off operating somewhere else, then so be it.
QFT.
Getting ganked should be factored into your business model. It's a known risk so set aside some of your profit to cover it and other contingent risks.
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3244
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
you trying to stop me from ganking you is griefing me |
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
116
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'm an industrialist...and I have to shake my head at this.
Yes, other players can make it difficult...nay...impossible to do things that you were previously doing just fine. They can crash or explode markets you depended on, target your assets and otherwise make things tough. A good industrialist learns to adapt. If you were clever enough to come up with a good solid business strategy before, you should be clever enough to re-assess the environment and find a new way to do business.
In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse. |
Disregard That
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Dyvim Slorm wrote:Bossy Lady wrote: Don't be ridiculous. Gank risk is a part of your cost of doing business. If, after factoring that risk, you're better off operating somewhere else, then so be it.
QFT. Getting ganked should be factored into your business model. It's a known risk so set aside some of your profit to cover it and other contingent risks. And if the profit to do so isn't there, then you're trying to build a castle in the sand where the dumb kid peed.
The sand there is gross, smells bad, and doesn't clump well.
Look for cleaner sand. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1668
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
Did some creative editing on the post to group ideas together. It was a little...free flowing.
Klandi wrote:So - a Metropolis ice bearing system gets the attention of my ice-miner. And I get ganked .... Did you tank your mackinaw? Have you maybe talked to some of the locals to see if anyone had a booster online to increase your tank? Or did you just put a barely-fitted Mack in an ice belt and assume absolute safety?
Klandi wrote:Because the situation has been created that means several variables (hi-sec, POS structures, fuel requirements, location of Jita, type of gameplay) I have no choice about where I go to optimize my profits. Market forces and geography dictate what is most efficient for you? Who would have ever thought such a thing!
Klandi wrote:So for the casual player, the one that does not like large groups or never feels the need to be hampered by sitting in or creating a supercap or station - why do I need null-sec?
For the abundant resources that are only available there.
Klandi wrote:And why do I need to be ganked? You don't. It's easily avoided. You got ganked because you were a soft target. Don't be. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
581
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
Klandi wrote:Wrong - CCP made the game YOU forced me to play this way so YOU are to blame
I also blame the other players for not allowing me to have my own personal Tech-moon and a fleet of Titans.
Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Disregard That
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:Klandi wrote:Wrong - CCP made the game YOU forced me to play this way so YOU are to blame I also blame the other players for not allowing me to have my own personal Tech-moon and a fleet of Titans. Why aim so low? Why not a fleet of Tech moons and a whole gaggle of fanbois to manage the pos's for you for pennies on the dollar, too? |
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VaMei
Meafi Corp
171
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Posted - 2012.06.06 19:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Pinstar Colton wrote:Yes, other players can make it difficult...nay...impossible to do things that you were previously doing just fine. They can crash or explode markets you depended on, target your assets and otherwise make things tough. A good industrialist learns to adapt. If you were clever enough to come up with a good solid business strategy before, you should be clever enough to re-assess the environment and find a new way to do business. Exactly right.
The challenges and competition offered by other players are the only things that make Eve any more challenging than Farmville. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
208
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:you trying to stop me from ganking you is griefing me
only if he is sucessful at it. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Warpshade
4
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Posted - 2012.06.06 19:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
Use of game mechanics is not griefing, its merely playing the game! Griefing is to negatively impact other players using out of game mechanics. However harrassment could warrant action, but you woud also have to prove you have been purposely harrassed, and guess what? being killed in Eve randomly by a gankers isnt harrasment neither.
People really need to learn the game they are playing, you knew what the game was and you chose said route, now you have to live with said decision, If you didnt know what the game was...well too bad, now your finding out.
Stop trying to change the game to benefit yourself, basically you just want to accumulate wealth without threat via changing game mechanics. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1176
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:35:00 -
[24] - Quote
Klandi wrote:So instead of discussing subjective theory, let me express a scenario - as close to factual as possible.
I am an industrialist in game - I want to make money by making stuff and selling stuff. The "sandbox" allows this. To perform this I must have a way of making stuff and also making a profit so I can pay for plexes for my characters and purchase components to make into stuff. My preferred method of making stuff is by erecting a POS - a large one, a Minnie POS. I need to sell my stuff to the masses and the most cost effective location is Jita - so where is the best place to erect my POS? IN NULL_SEC OF COURSE. Sadly not oh gentle reader - because it would not be profitable - and the cost of PLEXes is high so I must maximize my profits. So I put up my POS in hi-sec - fairly close to this major hub. Now I need fuel to maintain this method of gameplay - where do I go to get this? IN NULL_SEC OF COURSE. Again - we are not on the same page - I need to get the ice in hi-sec because it is cost effective and I prefer to do it alone as I cannot afford to share it. So - a Metropolis ice bearing system gets the attention of my ice-miner. And I get ganked ....
Because the situation has been created that means several variables (hi-sec, POS structures, fuel requirements, location of Jita, type of gameplay) I have no choice about where I go to optimize my profits.
So for the casual player, the one that does not like large groups or never feels the need to be hampered by sitting in or creating a supercap or station - why do I need null-sec? And why do I need to be ganked?
In short ,YOU have created my dependency and now you want to punish me for it? That is griefing...
Moral of story: People who are terrible at Eve cannot afford to buy plex.
Working as intended.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Jovan Geldon
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
439
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
You are greifing my eyes by writing such bullshit |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
810
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
It seems the OP does not know how to make their own choices. EVE is not the game for them. |
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
118
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Also keep one other thing in mind: There is a good chance that you are not the only industrialist doing what you were doing (or something very similar). As such, the same conditions that have made business hard for you is making business hard for them, your competition, too. If you are able to tweak the way you do things to account for the changes in the environment and additional risks, but otherwise continue your business, you'll probably find you have bigger profits waiting for you.
Ask any miner who has learned to mine without being ganked. Their adaptation let them remain and now they enjoy much higher mineral prices for their efforts. In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
89
|
Posted - 2012.06.06 19:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
Another, "What I mine is free." post, with bonus ganker whine.
1. You don't need a POS to be profitable. In fact a POS may hurt your profits.
I do very well just using publicly available manufacturing, research and invention, slots. Find a quiet highsec system that has low queue times. I can make a profit of about a half bil a week all in public slots, so your argument about "needing" a POS is pretty much moot.
2. Stop trying to gather everything by yourself.
Seriously, set up buy orders, and let somebody who can do it more efficiently than you sell you the materials you need, sometimes a little under value, savings that you can then pocket. Concentrate your skills on becoming a more efficient producer, and preserve even more of your profit margin. Gatherer, producer, efficient, choose two.
3. Stop ******* whining!
Seriously, just stop. You are making yourself look like a fool. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Mina Hiragi
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
62
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Posted - 2012.06.06 19:51:00 -
[29] - Quote
Klandi wrote:Again - we are not on the same page - I need to get the ice in hi-sec because it is cost effective and I prefer to do it alone as I cannot afford to share it. So - a Metropolis ice bearing system gets the attention of my ice-miner.
Being unable to 'afford sharing' ice, you choose to mine alone, thereby:
- Causing a potential decrease in m3/hour - Causing a potential loss in refinery inefficiency - Causing a definite loss in time wasted hauling/refining your own ice - Causing a devastating loss by virtue of being alone (there is safety in numbers, even if that safety translates to the guy next to you getting blown up instead of you).
I submit that you yourself should become a hulk-splattering ganker, because the Market Lords of Jita are going to do things to you and your questionable business sense that shouldn't be mentioned even on impolite forums. |
Pamplie
Tactical Stables Nulli Tertius
0
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Posted - 2012.06.06 19:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
Anyone here old enough to remember M0o? Those guys went on a killing spree in Mara (0.4) and got scattered to the far corners of the universe. |
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