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Baron vonBlood
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Posted - 2009.09.27 11:19:00 -
[1]
Is CCP manipulating the market to reduce trading profits? E.g. by inserting NPC sell orders that automatically continue to push down market prices in cases where otherwise huge profits would be made between regions.
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Hamno
M. Corp Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.09.27 11:24:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Hamno on 27/09/2009 11:24:19 I'd say,
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RAW23
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Posted - 2009.09.27 11:26:00 -
[3]
Seems rather unlikely. Any evidence for this?
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Lady Charnoob
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Posted - 2009.09.27 11:29:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Baron vonBlood Is CCP manipulating the market to reduce trading profits? E.g. by inserting NPC sell orders that automatically continue to push down market prices in cases where otherwise huge profits would be made between regions.
Any reason for this question ?
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Saartje Sarel
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Posted - 2009.09.27 14:07:00 -
[5]
Actually I have noticed this recently. On certain ships and implants where margins have been pretty silly ie more than 8m isk or so, NPC buy orders have suddenly appeared 4-5m better than the best PC one. It does happen. If its a conspiracy, I doubt it. Probably just WAD.
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Femaref
Armageddon Day
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Posted - 2009.09.27 14:12:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Femaref on 27/09/2009 14:12:53
Originally by: Saartje Sarel Actually I have noticed this recently. On certain ships and implants where margins have been pretty silly ie more than 8m isk or so, NPC buy orders have suddenly appeared 4-5m better than the best PC one. It does happen. If its a conspiracy, I doubt it. Probably just WAD.
on which and where, was it really an npc order (ie. 365 days left)?
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Brock Nelson
Caldari Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2009.09.27 15:09:00 -
[7]
I've been watching high end moon goo and I'm positive that CCP is driving the price down...
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Yarinor
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Posted - 2009.09.27 18:25:00 -
[8]
If ccp wanted to change the value of stuff, they'd do 1 of 2 things
1) Increase supply, be it either by reducing the actual cost of "producing" the item or make the item cheaper (like lowering lp store cost) 2) Reduce demand.
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2009.09.27 18:53:00 -
[9]
NPC buy orders was removed years ago. While it wouldn't me impossible for them to introduce characters that are NPC/employees, really what's the benefit of doing so, the dynamic market makes few pilots wealthy, not everyone.
So imo, nope I can't see them manipulating the market directly, what they could/would do if that is the case is manipulating it via the changes they introduce if so, eg changing drop rates, increasing NPC tax(omg omg omg!! lol) or similar things. Buy/Sell orders mean nothing in the whole "trade" business (from loot-to-refine-to-build-to-buy-or-sale area) for them [I think].
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SharpMango
The Khanates
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Posted - 2009.09.27 22:05:00 -
[10]
it is possible there is an increased proliferation of trade bots. like it or not they do exist. i have seen frighteningly quick replacements of orders i have bought. in one instance i bought out the entire stock at a particular station, one buyer, one seller. within the same second, that order was replaced in exactly the same quantity. I was surprised enough to think that my market view hadnt updated properly. but i repeated that order, and lo and behold, i had the same amount again. The behaviour was sufficiently weird for me to think it might be an NPC sell order, but now it appears it was probably a market bot, the more i have thought about it.
expect to see more unholy rage at some point.
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six
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Posted - 2009.09.27 22:22:00 -
[11]
NPC Sell Orders are 365 days in length. I assume since no details are specified by anyone here that they are misunderstanding what is going on.
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Usuotas
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Posted - 2009.09.28 03:58:00 -
[12]
Originally by: SharpMango ...
I also think there are market bots out there. Maybe not as sophisticated as you say, but macros that change prices by a few cents every 5 minutes are definitely there. Those are probably what is killing the prices of EVERYTHING these days. People get annoyed buy not being able to sell anything and lower the prices by alot... ---------------- Women - can't live with them........the end. - Al Bundy |
Iridescent Moon
Caldari Iridescent Dawn
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Posted - 2009.09.28 06:43:00 -
[13]
Originally by: SharpMango it is possible there is an increased proliferation of trade bots. like it or not they do exist. i have seen frighteningly quick replacements of orders i have bought.
Just saw this a few days ago in Jita. I meant to buy 3 of an item and only bought one. It was about 300k less then the rest of the market. My trade window flashed like it would when it clears the single listed item but, the item was back on the market again at eh same price selling one unit. Bought a single unit again and it did the same thing. Bought the 3rd unit and it repeated. Since I did not need any more I did not buy any more.
Could be a bot but it seems rather extreme. Most people would not undercut a sell order of one unit so I could see someone doing this to keep a hold on the lowest price for an item. I think it would be a n easy macro for CCP to catch since it would have to be spamming away like mad to keep up. It might have jsut been the data base going all funky though.
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RaTTuS
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.09.28 09:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Iridescent Moon
Originally by: SharpMango it is possible there is an increased proliferation of trade bots. like it or not they do exist. i have seen frighteningly quick replacements of orders i have bought.
Just saw this a few days ago in Jita. I meant to buy 3 of an item and only bought one. It was about 300k less then the rest of the market. My trade window flashed like it would when it clears the single listed item but, the item was back on the market again at eh same price selling one unit. Bought a single unit again and it did the same thing. Bought the 3rd unit and it repeated. Since I did not need any more I did not buy any more.
Could be a bot but it seems rather extreme. Most people would not undercut a sell order of one unit so I could see someone doing this to keep a hold on the lowest price for an item. I think it would be a n easy macro for CCP to catch since it would have to be spamming away like mad to keep up. It might have jsut been the data base going all funky though.
report these to ccp via a petition
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Creepin
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Posted - 2009.09.28 09:38:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Creepin on 28/09/2009 09:42:05
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste NPC Sell Orders are 365 days in length.
Don't be silly. While npc orders that are openly declared as being npc did have 365 days length indeed, I don't think that CCP will be moronic enough to use 365 day long orders coming from npc corp for the sake of covert market manipulation.
Of course, it doesn't prove on it's own that ccp really does so, but it doesn't prove opposite either.
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Baron vonBlood
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Posted - 2009.09.28 11:19:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Brock Nelson I've been watching high end moon goo and I'm positive that CCP is driving the price down...
I believe this drop in price is because of the changes flagged in Dominion - less (or no) need for towers to maintain sov. I've heard the lower prices in high end moon goo should also lead to lower prices in tech II ships.
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Louella Dougans
Amarr Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
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Posted - 2009.09.28 11:59:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Saartje Sarel Actually I have noticed this recently. On certain ships and implants where margins have been pretty silly ie more than 8m isk or so, NPC buy orders have suddenly appeared 4-5m better than the best PC one. It does happen. If its a conspiracy, I doubt it. Probably just WAD.
if you sell to these buy orders, who is the name on the transaction?
Be A Space Nun! It's Fun!! |
small chimp
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Posted - 2009.09.28 12:17:00 -
[18]
Bull**** I say. I can't see any reaso why ccp would do this.
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Andron Blaxcor
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Posted - 2009.09.28 13:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Creepin Edited by: Creepin on 28/09/2009 09:42:05
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste NPC Sell Orders are 365 days in length.
Don't be silly. While npc orders that are openly declared as being npc did have 365 days length indeed, I don't think that CCP will be moronic enough to use 365 day long orders coming from npc corp for the sake of covert market manipulation.
Of course, it doesn't prove on it's own that ccp really does so, but it doesn't prove opposite either.
I must disagree, I feel it's very unlikely that CCP would partake in covert market manipulation. Simply cutting cross-regional profits could be a by=product of trading by a player, so there's no real evidence of CCP's involvement. And I think that if it got out (which it inevitably would) that CCP were doing this it would hurt EVE's reputation of a player driven market. Finally, I see no reason why would CCP bother to cut trading profits? I see no benefit in it for them, they've always let the market find its own equilibrium as it makes the game fun for people like us...
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Graisse
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Posted - 2009.09.28 22:11:00 -
[20]
lol FHT in EvE??
High Frecuency Trading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithmic_trading
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Maurice MerleauPonty
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Posted - 2009.09.28 23:49:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Usuotas
Originally by: SharpMango ...
I also think there are market bots out there. Maybe not as sophisticated as you say, but macros that change prices by a few cents every 5 minutes are definitely there. Those are probably what is killing the prices of EVERYTHING these days. People get annoyed buy not being able to sell anything and lower the prices by alot...
Your comment raised my interest, because I often find myself changing prices by a few cents every 5 minutes. I sometimes do it with a timer, on 2-3 separate buy/sell orders for the same item, cycling my changes so that I can change the price immediately after someone else has tried to .01 isk their way into position. I relentlessly do this to eventually defeat the spirit of other competitors.
Am i then a bot?
Have I been playing against bots?
Both? Neither?
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rubico1337
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.09.29 00:48:00 -
[22]
Originally by: SharpMango but now it appears it was probably a market bot, the more i have thought about it.
ding ding ding! we have a winner
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2009.09.29 02:16:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Maurice MerleauPonty
Your comment raised my interest, because I often find myself changing prices by a few cents every 5 minutes. I sometimes do it with a timer, on 2-3 separate buy/sell orders for the same item, cycling my changes so that I can change the price immediately after someone else has tried to .01 isk their way into position. I relentlessly do this to eventually defeat the spirit of other competitors.
Am i then a bot?
Have I been playing against bots?
Both? Neither?
There is no way a human can accurately time themselves to the same exact seconds when updating an order and this pattern can be especially seen when multiple orders are updated en-masse. It's either the same person with multi-accounts using the same bot working in tandem or it's a different person bot-vs-bot fight.
Their update accuracy is also astounding. Making decisions and typing in the correct numbers with pin-point accuracy in under a second and repeatedly sustained for hours. Human or machine? You can update your same order several thousand times, but the relentless one won't be you ... it'll be Mr. Bot.
I don't trade often but I can recognize a bot when I see one. I'm rather surprised you're not complaining about them but instead adopted a defensive stance, not that I'm insinuating anything
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Krathos Morpheus
Gallente Legion Infernal
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Posted - 2009.09.29 03:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Sturmwolke I don't trade often but I can recognize a bot when I see one. I'm rather surprised you're not complaining about them but instead adopted a defensive stance, not that I'm insinuating anything
I had the thought recently that the best course of action for a bot user in this threads would be to say that they must be a bot because they behave the same and make funny of people confusing him with a bot. I'm not saying that ppl saying that are a computer bot ( at the least they're a human bot autoprogramed to make repetitive tasks) but saying that proves nothing.
EVE Knowledge
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six
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Posted - 2009.09.29 03:30:00 -
[25]
Not to discredit the reality of the situation, but it's sometimes flooring as to how blurry the question of how much cheating happens in the markets due to both simple misunderstandings of how to use the market interface and a lack of understanding as to the level with which some traders compete and update.
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Enihcam Xes
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Posted - 2009.09.29 08:39:00 -
[26]
Originally by: SharpMango it is possible there is an increased proliferation of trade bots. like it or not they do exist. i have seen frighteningly quick replacements of orders i have bought. in one instance i bought out the entire stock at a particular station, one buyer, one seller. within the same second, that order was replaced in exactly the same quantity. I was surprised enough to think that my market view hadnt updated properly. but i repeated that order, and lo and behold, i had the same amount again. The behaviour was sufficiently weird for me to think it might be an NPC sell order, but now it appears it was probably a market bot, the more i have thought about it.
expect to see more unholy rage at some point.
This exact story has come up many, many times before on these forums. Every single time it has been the case that the poster either does not understand how the market works or does not have their market window properly configured. What you saw was not a market bot it was just a big pile of fail. You were simply not filling the order that you thought you were.
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Enihcam Xes
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Posted - 2009.09.29 09:04:00 -
[27]
I also thought I'd point out that there is no way for a bot to act so fast that it updates an order after you fill it and before a refresh. Eve doesn't stream market data to your client, it gives you data with sporadic refreshes. This is true for everybody on eve, so it also has to be true for bots.
Stop and think about how the game works before you stir up the forum trolls.
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Maurice MerleauPonty
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Posted - 2009.09.29 11:16:00 -
[28]
I'm still freaking out over here over the possibility that I might be a robot - it's a sort of existential crisis.
All my life I thought I was a human being living among humans. Then I tried to play this MMORPG, EVE, and through some kind of weird inverse of the Turing test it is now possible that the relentless mind-games I've been trying to play with others in the eve universe actually establish that I'm a robot. What am I supposed to tell my family? If I ever find my creator, I'm going to squeeze his eyeballs in with my thumbs, Rutger Hauer style.
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Loney
CyberDyne R-D
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Posted - 2009.09.30 02:31:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Chribba NPC buy orders was removed years ago. [I think].
There are still many items that have NPC buy orders... however... they are NOT as profitable as in the past. I sell about a dozen hand picked NPC items and make a nice stead income from them daily. ..
Check out our Website in game or out!
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Rudy Gnarl
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.09.30 02:46:00 -
[30]
Wouldn't this kind of behavior from CCP defeat the whole purpose of EVE? This is supposed to be our creation as players for the most part, right? Sandbox?
Now CCP's introduction of the new rigs complete f-ed the market for salvage and large rigs, but hey I should have seen that coming. But CCP bots on anything other than the standard items that CCP sells (trade goods, BPOs, and skill books) just doesn't make any sense to me - at all. --- Am I being targeted, wait, ahh, my shields, s**t my armor. Why won't it warp, it's not responding. Warp to zero! Damn it my pod too?!? F*****g lag! [lesson learned: log for lag] |
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