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12433412
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Posted - 2009.09.30 15:34:00 -
[61]
I mean large 0.0 alliance fleets and by large I mean 100+ bs and support with tens of thousands of dps. In smaller engagements, targets don't die so fast and the issue with cruise speed is somewhat relativized there (i.e. is smaller or non-existent). Warping on top of snipers is nice, but hardly achievable in such large and therefore heterogeneous groups (although not impossible, of course). But one would not use cruises for that task anyway.
_____________________________________________________ Beware of what you want, it might want you more! |
Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.09.30 16:04:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Daenosa ah well that makes sense, thanks for the post.
So missile fleets have the advantage of causing full damage while receiving very little in return, however the missile fleet has to put in alot of effort and coordination for this to work.
Gun fleets have to stay at range and spam f1-f8, but they can still receive full damage from missile fleets (when the missiles finally arrive that is)
in that case i apologise Valandril. I still say my idea is a good 1 thou
You almost got it, but tackling whole hostile sniper fleet is very easy (in the era of dictors/hictors). As i've said earlier, it is harder but it is also more rewarding (unexperienced guys in this tactic can go with 2:3 odds and win). And as i've said earlier, missile redirection would nullify penalty of flight time in fleet battles which is a no-no. If you want instant sniper, get guns. Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist |
12433412
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Posted - 2009.09.30 16:19:00 -
[63]
Why bother? If you can get the warp-in get a dozen of bombers and annihilate the fleet entirely with their pods too. You're still not getting the point.
You can kill a sniper fleet in many ways and for what has been proposed you can use blaster/ac/pulse ships just as effectively. That tactic is by no means tied to missiles.
Again, the point is to allow missile spammers to join regular fleet (read sniper fleet - and no, I don't want instant damage, just ammo that arrives on the same day it has been fired) without the need to forget all they've been training up to now and just focus on an entirely different skill tree.
_____________________________________________________ Beware of what you want, it might want you more! |
Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.09.30 16:24:00 -
[64]
Originally by: 12433412 ammo that arrives on the same day it has been fired
wish granted, no patch needed. Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist |
Vall Kor
Minmatar Stealthfield Ihatalo Cartel Navy
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Posted - 2009.09.30 19:45:00 -
[65]
Most missiles are supposedly guided. So why can't we guide them? Maybe a secondary effect of target painters (can even use another fleet member to paint it.) could be used to guide the missile. If they are not guided and a fire and forget weapon, then adjust the agility on Calamari ships for that role, warp in fire a volley, warp out all untargeted like bombs.
Basically, missiles are guided or they aren't. If they are are guided then let us guide them.
"By way of deception, thou shalt do war"
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Justin Cody
Caldari Apocalypse Enterprises Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2009.09.30 20:09:00 -
[66]
Well for those of you who were not around during the torpedo and cruise missile kestrel era...missiles used to rock. Torpedoes used to do splash damage...the problem was not so much that there was splash damage...its more that there were people who thought it was funny to fire them off in high sec...and the splash damage hit someone's anchored can or jet can or a friendly ship that was not in your corp.
This resulted on CONCORD pwning many a nub deservingly. Missiles are now way past carebear. their DPS is lackluster, their hitting power negligible except on battleships and BC's and with the new AF changes you can speed tank precision lights.
The missile masters that Caldari used to be are no longer. missiles are a viable weapon in support and heavy siege of a small or medium POS. Torps now are less useful than blasters...though they do a load of damage, they are still dumb, slow and have no benefit whatsoever except for the fact that many of us have trained for them.
Missiles are inherently superior to turret based weapons because they ARE guided. Forget about balance just for one second. If you wanted to kill a ship across vast distances...and it can move...a dumb slug/laser beam can't bend or turn in space, but a missile can. Rockets stink, cruise missiles and heavy missiles are mediocre and well frankly torps need their range back. Remind people that profit is the difference between revenue and expense. This makes you look smart. Scott Adams
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Cayell
Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.09.30 20:27:00 -
[67]
Originally by: 12433412 Valandril, you might have missed the fact that this is the "Features and Ideas" thread. Not an "I Demand" thread. Nobody cares what you want. If you have anything constructive to say to the topic, please, do so. Otherwise, do me a kindness, stop spamming my thread.
You're missing his point. He's simply saying that missiles have a time-to-target penalty just as guns have tracking/falloff. It's a kind of balance.
Unfortunately, I don't use missile boats, so couldn't comment on whether it's a good balance or not.
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Xahara
StarFleet Enterprises Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.09.30 20:48:00 -
[68]
Why the talk about sniping? This discussion should not be based on the plain topic that is: snipe or not to snipe? It's not how it works. Missiles in general are not made for sniping. Leave that to guns. Actually, let me say, leave that to Beam Lasers and Railguns. Arties can't really snipe worth a damn. So, if Large Artilleries (which are guns) can't snipe, why should cruise missiles (which are not guns) be able to snipe aswell? Doesn't make sense in my opinion. Missiles (and more especifically, torpedoes) are made for close range, insta, constant damage. Torp ravens can do wonders in close range engagements. I even think they are overpowered! Lol.
Just my 2 cents :)
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Daenosa
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Posted - 2009.09.30 20:49:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Valandril
And as i've said earlier, missile redirection would nullify penalty of flight time in fleet battles which is a no-no. If you want instant sniper, get guns.
Ah now i see what you mean, however missiles then have 2 penalties attached to flight time, 1: if the target dies, the missile misses completely. 2: it takes time to reach the target.
I purpose getting rid of number 1, having 2 penalties to me seems a bit OTT
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Svartkraft
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Posted - 2009.09.30 22:18:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Xahara Why the talk about sniping? This discussion should not be based on the plain topic that is: snipe or not to snipe? It's not how it works. Missiles in general are not made for sniping. Leave that to guns. Actually, let me say, leave that to Beam Lasers and Railguns. Arties can't really snipe worth a damn. So, if Large Artilleries (which are guns) can't snipe, why should cruise missiles (which are not guns) be able to snipe aswell? Doesn't make sense in my opinion. Missiles (and more especifically, torpedoes) are made for close range, insta, constant damage. Torp ravens can do wonders in close range engagements. I even think they are overpowered! Lol.
Just my 2 cents :)
large artilleries can't snipe? i beg to differ - they might not do as well as the current fotm (beams) but they do sufficiently well to earn their place in a sniper fleet... range is somewhat lower than other weapon system which is compensated by no cap usage, large falloff, big volley damage and dealing exp dmg (which is usually the best damage type to deal against 3/4 of the other snipers). And with the upcoming changes even the arties will be more on par with the other guns.
as for the missiles: as already mentioned, no they dont have a tracking/range penalty. instead they do come with other penalties like reduced damage against fast moving or small targets. even in terms of range they are somewhat penalized since they cant just switch to a high damage ammo for close range, unlike snipers.
I do not know where the information that they are not made for sniping comes from. They arent good at it, but they arent made for it?
To actually quote from the Cruise Missile Launcher II item description:
"A battleship mounted launcher used for long range standoffs with other battleships..."
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.10.01 00:15:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Typhado3 on 01/10/2009 00:16:02
Originally by: Kerfira That is why Raven's either:
1. Fit for anti-support 2. Shoot at the secondary target
LTP
Originally by: Cornette Easy solution: Shoot secondary target
shoot at the secondary target.
still betting someone will qtuote this and say shooting secondary is useless either because your damage will arive to early and be repped or to late and will still miss. that just means your doing it wrong, you have to time your damage it's a lot harder than gun ships but if your smart/well practiced it works. ------------------------------
Just a crazy inventor ccp fix mining agent missions % pls
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12433412
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Posted - 2009.10.01 14:21:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Typhado3 Edited by: Typhado3 on 01/10/2009 00:16:02
Originally by: Kerfira That is why Raven's either:
1. Fit for anti-support 2. Shoot at the secondary target
LTP
Originally by: Cornette Easy solution: Shoot secondary target
shoot at the secondary target.
still betting someone will qtuote this and say shooting secondary is useless either because your damage will arive to early and be repped or to late and will still miss. that just means your doing it wrong, you have to time your damage it's a lot harder than gun ships but if your smart/well practiced it works.
I'll quote, yes. And won't repeat myself. Let me ask you though: would it be a problem if the stats on precision cruises changed? If yes, what sort of problem. Would they be more useful? Would they become overpowered? Or is this just a defense of current stats just for the sake of preserving current stats? Shooting secondary targets might or might not works, still it's a ******ed workaround IMHO.
_____________________________________________________ Beware of what you want, it might want you more! |
Judas II
7th Space Cavalry
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Posted - 2009.10.01 14:28:00 -
[73]
Originally by: 12433412 Edited by: 12433412 on 29/09/2009 21:55:04 Give precision cruises half of the flight time and double their flight velocity.
/signed
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12433412
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Posted - 2009.10.01 14:39:00 -
[74]
Edited by: 12433412 on 01/10/2009 14:39:53
Originally by: Cayell
Originally by: 12433412 Valandril, you might have missed the fact that this is the "Features and Ideas" thread. Not an "I Demand" thread. Nobody cares what you want. If you have anything constructive to say to the topic, please, do so. Otherwise, do me a kindness, stop spamming my thread.
You're missing his point. He's simply saying that missiles have a time-to-target penalty just as guns have tracking/falloff. It's a kind of balance.
Unfortunately, I don't use missile boats, so couldn't comment on whether it's a good balance or not.
If the 'penalty', as you call it, effectively removes the ability for missile users to join regular fleets then it is not a matter of balance but discrimination.
The situation we're in now is has not been estableiseh by some patch or a nerf - you have to keep in mind that Eve has grown, so havs the size of battles and, accordingly, the life expectancy of a primary target has decreased. While a few years ago cruises could still impact in time, these days it is more or less an illusion. Simply said - Eve got faster and cruise speeds need to reflect the trend, well, if they were ever meant to be anything but a carebear weapon.
EDIT: typo
_____________________________________________________ Beware of what you want, it might want you more! |
Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.10.01 14:51:00 -
[75]
Originally by: 12433412 Edited by: 12433412 on 01/10/2009 14:39:53
Originally by: Cayell
Originally by: 12433412 Valandril, you might have missed the fact that this is the "Features and Ideas" thread. Not an "I Demand" thread. Nobody cares what you want. If you have anything constructive to say to the topic, please, do so. Otherwise, do me a kindness, stop spamming my thread.
You're missing his point. He's simply saying that missiles have a time-to-target penalty just as guns have tracking/falloff. It's a kind of balance.
Unfortunately, I don't use missile boats, so couldn't comment on whether it's a good balance or not.
If the 'penalty', as you call it, effectively removes the ability for missile users to join regular fleets then it is not a matter of balance but discrimination.
The situation we're in now is has not been estableiseh by some patch or a nerf - you have to keep in mind that Eve has grown, so havs the size of battles and, accordingly, the life expectancy of a primary target has decreased. While a few years ago cruises could still impact in time, these days it is more or less an illusion. Simply said - Eve got faster and cruise speeds need to reflect the trend, well, if they were ever meant to be anything but a carebear weapon.
EDIT: typo
Then don't fly with people who discriminate you. Again you are confirming that this is matter with PEOPLE who build fleets FOR gunnery ships, and as such can be solved by just players, no need for ccp interference. Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist |
Grumples McGee
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Posted - 2009.10.01 18:04:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Grumples McGee on 01/10/2009 18:04:39
Originally by: Vall Kor Most missiles are supposedly guided. So why can't we guide them?
That's a good point to bring up too.
This is devastating to missile fleets in long range engagement: you still have missile volleys in the air when your target blows up. You just wasted a lot of DPS. Good FCs will try to predict this and get people to switch to another target ahead of time but that's a lot harder than just using instant-hit weapon systems so you never waste a shot.
It would be nice if missiles in space could be switched to a new target, particularly if the current target blows up, rather than wasting that much DPS.
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Nebularis
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Posted - 2009.10.01 19:38:00 -
[77]
well part of the targetting solution aleady exists. you have the ability to target multiple ships. so if you lose lock on a target for *any* reason, then the missile AI could simple redirect towards the next locked target, which it will hit, assuming that it can get there within it's flight time. Problem solved.
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Azirapheal
Amarr Armored Core Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.01 21:24:00 -
[78]
ive known fc's to give out primary secondary and missile targets before.
they usually pop at the same time.
Originally by: Azirapheal i never ever thought id live to see the day.... that titans were nerfed for being FOTM HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist SoonÖ
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Faunker
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.10.02 06:39:00 -
[79]
/signed
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