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Evengard
Solar Dragons SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2009.10.01 15:15:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Evengard on 01/10/2009 15:37:03 Edited by: Evengard on 01/10/2009 15:17:55
Yes this is another epic thread about Tempest and projectiles.
Let's face reality, balancing of Fleet Pest \ Machariel is a waste of time, without solving a problem with Tempest.
As we have now, Tempest is weakest ship with 2 damage bonuses. If you fit Tachs on a Tempst with 3 heatsinks and 2 traking comps, there be these numbers (with all @5 and t2 long range ammo):
Tach: 301 dps, 154km (+25) Arty: 356 dps, 140km (+44)
And this is ship with dual damage bonus ?? Joke. with only 6 turret slot it can not compete with 8 turreted Apocs and Abaddons (somehow closer to Megas but still sucking).
To solve this we need total rework on tempest design. CCP already started working at this direction by lowering ROF and increasing Alfa. In extention changes on a Tempest: Removing RoF bonus, and adding Falloff, making looks like this
- 10% Per level to Large Projectile Damage. - 10% Per level to Large Projectile Falloff.
+1 Turret Slot.
More grid to fit 7th turret or less base grid for turrets
Why so?? Falloff bonus is natural for minmatar and is the only logical choice.
As for turrets we having 2 "primary" attributes (damage \ ROF) and 3 "secondary" (optimal \ traking \ falloff)
Optimal used by Amarrs (and caldari O_o) Tracking for Gallente Falloff for Minmatars
Below is a comparation of old and new tempest.
http://rapidshare.com/files/287382736/Tempest.xls.html
With added faloff bonus Tempest will be able to compete with other fleet battleships giving him 140+66 range ________________ Recon and Intercept
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To mare
Amarr Advanced Technology
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Posted - 2009.10.01 16:04:00 -
[2]
1st stop comparing 1400 to tach 2nd the tempest bonus are fine, the ship will need the rof expecially with new artillery.
all what the tempest need is a agilty-speed bonus and the grid for a sniper fit w/o fitting mods (or arty grid req reduced). AC needs love, they still do bad damage at every range
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dirtystorm
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Posted - 2009.10.01 16:11:00 -
[3]
Evengard
+1.
Tempest should be rebalanced. But in case of Alpha changing i think bonus to agility will be pretty fine. (Hit and run tactic)
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Evengard
Solar Dragons SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2009.10.01 16:28:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Evengard on 01/10/2009 16:30:15
Originally by: To mare ...
1st just an example of sucking ship 2nd Even with arty changes this tempest will be fine.
it goes to approx 6k alfa with 16 second ROF.
With my changes Tempest can use 1200 artys without beeng completly useless.
And please can you name a reason why should Tempest be used over Apoc who have more damage, range and tank ??
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Saietor Blackgreen
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2009.10.01 18:20:00 -
[5]
1) Most (if not all) of the Tempest problems are Arties and large ACs themselves, which are being rebalanced. Nothing to ask for untill its done.
2) This is the MOST HORRIBLE EFT fit I probably ever saw! 6 Tachs on Tempest? With 5 weapon mods in lows? Mwahahahah! :)
Did you try to actually fit that? How long its gonna run with Tempest capacitor? And dont even start talking about CapBooster because tempest doesn't have enought grid even to fit 6 1400s + MWD without some extra grid, let alone tachyons+capbooster.
I am really sorry, OP, but you have too many mistakes in your OP to turn it into constructive megathread. ---
EvE online. New game every 6 months. |
Saietor Blackgreen
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2009.10.01 18:27:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Evengard And please can you name a reason why should Tempest be used over Apoc who have more damage, range and tank ??
Because its more agile, has higher alpha, and because its a Minmatar ship.
This was discussed many times - where is it written that ebery race has to have EQUALLY good fleet BS? Fleet - is just one tactic. It happens so, that Amarr warfare philosophy is most suitable for that tactic - "sit in your glorious golden ship, believe in god and unleash laser hell on infidels". NO WONDER they have best fleet BSes.
Matari are supposed to be (and actually are close to be) the kings of roaming small-to-medium gangs, but not masters of linear battleships battles. And THEY ARE NOT.
So to answer your questions properly: "Why use Tempest over Apoc in 0.0 classic POS-warfare fleet?" "Because you cant use Apocalypse."
Theres nothing DRASTICALLY bad about it.
But it doesnt mean Tempest doesnt need attention. All Im saying it doesnt necessarily have to rival Apocalypse in fleet, it just have to have advantage in some other field, that Apoc doesnt. ---
EvE online. New game every 6 months. |
Evengard
Solar Dragons SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2009.10.01 19:27:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Evengard on 01/10/2009 19:28:34 [ Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen 1)... 2) ...
1. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1184365&page=12#336 Even with change i don't see good improvement for Tempests as a fleet Battleship .
As it was pile of crap it still be.
2. 6xtachs 3xdamage mods. Tachs was just an example to compare damage of the ship. If you can't understand this, better stop posting at all.
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
Because its more agile, has higher alpha, and because its a Minmatar ship.
12.7 Apoc second vs 11.9 Tempest allign. Just super agile
2760 Apoc vs 3770 Tempest... Rally makes a difference.
Quote:
This was discussed many times - where is it written that ebery race has to have EQUALLY good fleet BS? Fleet - is just one tactic.
Sure. The are not equal, but every ship shuld have a role.
You want to make tempest 1 hit ship ?? For what mid range 80-120?? you will be tackled before you make a second shot.
For such hit&run HACs suites better.
Current RoF on Sisi is 17 seconds with 3 gyros.
Even with this i don't see usefull role for this ship.
Quote:
Matari are supposed to be (and actually are close to be) the kings of roaming small-to-medium gangs, but not masters of linear battleships battles. And THEY ARE NOT.
Roaming 1-hit&warp battleships...
Sorry mate but this is useless.
Quote:
So to answer your questions properly: "Why use Tempest over Apoc in 0.0 classic POS-warfare fleet?" "Because you cant use Apocalypse."
Exactly. And it's not about Apoc. Mega, and Rokh are better in most situations.
Quote:
But it doesnt mean Tempest doesnt need attention. All Im saying it doesnt necessarily have to rival Apocalypse in fleet, it just have to have advantage in some other field, that Apoc doesnt.
From description: The Tempest is one of the Republic Fleet's key vessels; a versatile gunship proficient at long-range bombardment.
PS: BTW, do you even looked at exel file ??
________________ Recon and Intercept
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Psyflame
Overview Glitch
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Posted - 2009.10.01 20:17:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Evengard
Tach: 301 dps, 154km (+25) Arty: 356 dps, 140km (+44)
Why are you comparing tier 2 artillery with tier 3 beams?
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Evengard
Solar Dragons SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2009.10.01 20:37:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Psyflame
Originally by: Evengard
Tach: 301 dps, 154km (+25) Arty: 356 dps, 140km (+44)
Why are you comparing tier 2 artillery with tier 3 beams?
maybe because there is no Tier 3 Artys ?? ________________ Recon and Intercept
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Psyflame
Overview Glitch
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Posted - 2009.10.01 20:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Evengard
Originally by: Psyflame
Originally by: Evengard
Tach: 301 dps, 154km (+25) Arty: 356 dps, 140km (+44)
Why are you comparing tier 2 artillery with tier 3 beams?
maybe because there is no Tier 3 Artys ??
Soo... ask CCP for tier 3 arty instead of something so asinine as comparing different tiers of weaponry?
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Evengard
Solar Dragons SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2009.10.01 20:46:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Psyflame
Soo... ask CCP for tier 3 arty instead of something so asinine as comparing different tiers of weaponry?
good idea, but i think this takes even more then 5 years of Tempest rebalancing ________________ Recon and Intercept
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2009.10.01 21:22:00 -
[12]
just leave him alone
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.10.02 09:24:00 -
[13]
Why does everyone want to boost falloff on artillery? They aren't AC's. The fall off is useful but the optimal is longer on artillery. How about a 10% damage and 5%-7.5% to optimal bonus per lvl?
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Evengard
Solar Dragons SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2009.10.02 12:04:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 02/10/2009 09:30:13 Why does everyone want to boost falloff on artillery? They aren't AC's. The fall off is useful but the optimal is longer on artillery. How about a 10% damage and 5%-7.5% to optimal bonus per lvl?
There is a few reasons.
First. There is already 2 battleships with Optimal range bonus (Rokh and Apoc) and adding third IMO not a good idea.
Second. Falloff bonus applying not only for Artys, but also to ACs, and they have alot of use of it. Adding optimal bonus on a Minmatar ship in general leads to only one weapon system to use - Artillery. Extra 2-3km optimal on autocannons is a thrown away bonus.
And we already have a ship close to this - Vargur. With extended falloff it can use close range weapons on a mid range (like a pulses on Apoc).
So changing Tempests bonus to falloff is on logical to make a line for a prototype.
________________ Recon and Intercept
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2009.10.02 12:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Evengard There is a few reasons.
First. There is already 2 battleships with Optimal range bonus (Rokh and Apoc) and adding third IMO not a good idea.
Second. Falloff bonus applying not only for Artys, but also to ACs, and they have alot of use of it. Adding optimal bonus on a Minmatar ship in general leads to only one weapon system to use - Artillery. Extra 2-3km optimal on autocannons is a thrown away bonus.
And we already have a ship close to this - Vargur. With extended falloff it can use close range weapons on a mid range (like a pulses on Apoc).
So changing Tempests bonus to falloff is on logical to make a line for a prototype.
In other words you are trying to make the tempest an AC ship. The tier 2 BSs tend to be the long range BS. Yeah the Megathron kinda breaks that but not entirely. It fits Sentry drones and with the right fittings reaches out quite a ways. Gal tend to be the short range race anyway. The Apoc and the Raven definately fit the long range niche. Caldari are long range so the optimal on the Rokh fits. Notice it's got a tank bonus as well. So what's up with the tempest?
The Vargur is a pve ship. Look at the sensor strength. It also has the equivilant of 8 turrets. Fall off bonus on a tempest that is already undergunned isn't going to fix anything.
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Evengard
Solar Dragons SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2009.10.02 16:17:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
In other words you are trying to make the tempest an AC ship.
Wrong. Both Arty and AC benefits from extended falloff. And with damage bonus Arty maybe even more, giving Tespest quite kick with high alfa.
With 7th turret (and without RoF bonus) tempest recieve small DpS bonus (18-20) but quite large alfa boost.
And extemded faloff giving him ability co compete al long ranges with Apoc and Rokh.
Quote:
The Vargur is a pve ship. Look at the sensor strength. It also has the equivilant of 8 turrets. Fall off bonus on a tempest that is already undergunned isn't going to fix anything.
It's not about sensors or PvE. It's ships weapon systems design. If you looked at formulas attached in first post, you'd notice difference between Vargur and New Tempest is minimal in terms of DpS. it will have higher Rof but lower Alfa. But problem of Vargur that it cannot be fited with artys without 2-3 powergrid mods.
________________ Recon and Intercept
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