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Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
1086
|
Posted - 2012.06.08 16:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
CSM I know you guys never open up Assembly Hall anymore, I guess it is below you or something, so I will post this here.
Yes we all know the clone upgrade cost is an ISK sink. Now if the sink is added to, spread out or just removed, across other forms of ISK sinks, like cost to install a manufacturing job or something. It does not matter.
The only thing the clone upgrade cost does is discourage PvP. That is it, outside of the sink. And because it discourages potential explosions and stuff dying, etc... it itself causes inflation. If the clone upgrade cost was removed you would see a lot more combat happening and in smaller ships.
Because you can only take so many skill points with you that matter when boarding a ship, it in a way would close the gap a bit more between the vets and the young players.
It is a win win situation. So please grab CCP and convince them to make this change. It in no way makes the game more hard core like some of you like to brag about. It is just one of the mechanics that the game has outgrown.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
394
|
Posted - 2012.06.08 21:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
/Supported.
My "co-main" is approaching SP 60mn., and it's just getting downright ludicrous. In irae, veritas. |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
143
|
Posted - 2012.06.09 00:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Make it so you lose no SP in PvP (which is generally one of the biggest fears about pvping), it should significantly increase PvP. Also raise the tax to 2.0% to compensate for the lack of isk sunk from clones. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
1091
|
Posted - 2012.06.09 00:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:/Supported.
My "co-main" is approaching SP 60mn., and it's just getting downright ludicrous.
Try 110m sp :P
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Eidric
Shadows of HyperSpace Wormholes Holders
33
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Posted - 2012.06.09 00:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
This is a small step towards the dark side....not supported. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
1092
|
Posted - 2012.06.09 01:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Eidric wrote:This is a small step towards the dark side....not supported.
Your argument is so well thought out and compelling.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Eidric
Shadows of HyperSpace Wormholes Holders
34
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Posted - 2012.06.09 02:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Your argument is so well thought out and compelling.
Thank you, here is full list
A) As you have mentioned it is ISK sink
B) This will devalue the death penalty for these, who fly without implants, making the Eve move from hardcore pvp towards arcade pvp (dark side)
C) Clone cost associated with character age, and older characters can earn more money than new players.
D) Clone price is negligible compared to implant cost + ship cost
E) Dropping clone price will fuel the talks of these, who also wish to get rid of implant price (similar arguments) pushing Eve even more into arcade feel (dark side)
F) This goes against what i think is main motto of Eve - "everything comes with a price"
G) Lore-wise: There is no point for main corporations to pay for capsuleer clones, especially if they can't trust our loyalty
I can see it being developed in different manner:
Player owned corporations can let their pilots upgrade their clones for free (while fee is being charged to corporation \ alliance ) This way PvP-oriented groups can encourage their pilots to be more reckless. Without breaking the "hardcore" feeling Eve has.
Or Factions can give bonus to their most loyal FW pilots with similar benefits.
I don't this it should ever apply to any other corporation / empire |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
1092
|
Posted - 2012.06.09 02:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Eidric wrote:A) As you have mentioned it is ISK sink A sink that is moved to something else like NPC job slots - so this is a moot point
Eidric wrote:B) This will devalue the death penalty for these, who fly without implants, making the Eve move from hardcore pvp towards arcade pvp (dark side) These players will fly more often, risking and losing more ships. This is a good thing. You calling it arcade pvp is rather funny though. You view more pvp as bad, I view it as good. So there we have it.
Eidric wrote:C) Clone cost associated with character age, and older characters can earn more money than new players. This argument is simply asinine. There are young players making an absolute **** ton of ISK compared to 9-10 year old vets. Age in EVE has little bearing on what you can make if you put forth effort.
Eidric wrote:D) Clone price is negligible compared to implant cost + ship cost *****, please.
There are more and more older players that are having to upgrade their clone to the 30 million ISK Tau and up. That is more than a T2 frigate and most definitely more than a T1 frigate, cruiser, destroyer and knocking on the door step of a battlecruiser.
Get on my level.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
1092
|
Posted - 2012.06.09 02:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
Eidric wrote:E) Dropping clone price will fuel the talks of these, who also wish to get rid of implant price (similar arguments) This is just a scare tactic from you that is paper thin. That is like me saying the EVE UI should not be improved because it would fuel the talks of players wanting combat to be a rail shooter with joystick support.
Eidric wrote:F) This goes against what i think is main motto of Eve - "everything comes with a price" I could give a rats ass what the motto currently is.
Eidric wrote:G) Lore-wise: There is no point for main corporations to pay for capsuleer clones, especially if they can't trust our loyalty **** lore. I want dumb, arbitrary mechanics that are crap removed/fixed in this game.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Grandpa Bill
Twin Lakes Retirement Home
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.09 03:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ya know, something came to me when I started readin this. What if there were some kind of life insurance policy you could put on yourself monthly. It would pay out like ship insurance, so say it would cost about 30% of what a clone costs. So a 100 mil clone would requite you to pay a extra 30 mil or so for insurance and if you die in that month, you get a free or majorly discounted clone. After you die, you'd have to pay another 30 mil for another life insurance plan. That way if you do a lot of that fightin you'd get cheaper clones. It would be a system built mainly for people who see themselves fighting a lot seeing that someone who dosent fight a lot would probably eat the 100 mil cost because there would be a chance they wouldn't die a whole lot and it wouldn't be worth it. |
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Eidric
Shadows of HyperSpace Wormholes Holders
34
|
Posted - 2012.06.09 03:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote: This argument is simply asinine. There are young players making an absolute **** ton of ISK compared to 9-10 year old vets. Age in EVE has little bearing on what you can make if you put forth effort.
No, character age allows many things to be done with LESS effort, while not preventing them to earn as much as these new players do - it is more about people being able to adapt.
I fail to see a reason, why we have to give older players newbie-like benefits simply because they are unwilling \ lazy to provide for their own support.
Marlona Sky wrote: *****, please.
There are more and more older players that are having to upgrade their clone to the 30 million ISK Tau and up. That is more than a T2 frigate and most definitely more than a T1 frigate, cruiser, destroyer and knocking on the door step of a battlecruiser.
Get on my level.
You have 93-120 million SP and you can't afford 30 M isk per pod?
Or you want to fly most dangerous and high-paced pvp activity without associated risks? Flying in cannon fodder type ships against enemy gangs (Otherwise I do not know how you manage to loose your pods so often)
Mind telling that to people who put officer gear on AF?
Marlona Sky wrote: This is just a scare tactic from you that is paper thin. That is like me saying the EVE UI should not be improved because it would fuel the talks of players wanting combat to be a rail shooter with joystick support.
Your example is completely missing my point
Marlona Sky wrote: ...I could give a rats ass what the motto currently is...
...**** lore. I want dumb, arbitrary mechanics that are crap removed/fixed in this game...
I see, I thought you wanted a discussion. Very well, if you want, I can speak your language: "Wow is that way -->" |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
1092
|
Posted - 2012.06.09 03:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sounds like the ship insurance we have now, which is kinda junk in my opinion.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
909
|
Posted - 2012.06.09 05:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
Eidric wrote:No, character age allows many things to be done with LESS effort, while not preventing them to earn as much as these new players do - it is more about people being able to adapt.
I fail to see a reason, why we have to give older players newbie-like benefits simply because they are unwilling \ lazy to provide for their own support.
The diminishing returns aspect of skill training would disagree.
Eidric wrote:You have 93-120 million SP and you can't afford 30 M isk per pod?
Or you want to fly most dangerous and high-paced pvp activity without associated risks? Flying in cannon fodder type ships against enemy gangs (Otherwise I do not know how you manage to loose your pods so often)
Without which associated risks? The loss of your ship and implants? There are a lot of ships with relatively high SP requirements which are treated as cannon fodder - dictors/hics, logistics, T2 fit battleships, triage carriers, dreads. eh |
Eidric
Shadows of HyperSpace Wormholes Holders
34
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Posted - 2012.06.09 06:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote: The diminishing returns aspect of skill training would disagree...
...Without which associated risks? The loss of your ship and implants? There are a lot of ships with relatively high SP requirements which are treated as cannon fodder - dictors/hics, logistics, T2 fit battleships, triage carriers, dreads.
True, but some skills allow T2 variants that greatly enhance player capabilities. From personal point of view I've noticed that increased clone costs are usually scaled with accordance of my ISK making capabilities.
I also employ a different approach to the cost of buying a clone - i buy them knowing that there will be time, when I will loose them. And therefore it is not a matter of when and how often but more in a matter of how.
Right now i fly inside a Faberg+¬ egg that I've spent approx 1,6 bill isk. Will i run from pvp? No. Will I dive into hornet's nest yelling "Leeroy!" Probably no as well. And I do not think that is a decline of PvP. This is Eve and not WoW or any other game, it's main selling point isn't the pvp, it's main selling point is the sandbox. And sandbox games are different from other games, for they cause players to choose real-life choices and not a game-like ones.
That is why we have corporate espionage and metagaming, that is why we have scouts and recons.
Frankly all associated costs can hurt a lot, but saying that pvp will be better without them is also not true. Yes, perhaps there will be more of if but it wont be the same. Right now I will do my very best to save my pod, even if I switch to my cheap fleet version. Will I care as much if the destruction of my pod will cost me nothing? Not likely.
That is why the real pvp happens here and not on test server - because here it matters; it matters if you loose your ship, it matters if you loose your pod. |
Bossy Lady
Aliastra Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2012.06.09 06:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tbh the right way to improve EVE is to hugely increase ISK sinks that don't effect me, and eliminate the ones that do.
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
Bossy Lady
Aliastra Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 10:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:CSM I know you guys never open up Assembly Hall anymore, I guess it is below you or something, so I will post this here.
Yes we all know the clone upgrade cost is an ISK sink. Now if the sink is added to, spread out or just removed, across other forms of ISK sinks, like cost to install a manufacturing job or something. It does not matter.
The only thing the clone upgrade cost does is discourage PvP. That is it, outside of the sink. And because it discourages potential explosions and stuff dying, etc... it itself causes inflation. If the clone upgrade cost was removed you would see a lot more combat happening and in smaller ships.
Because you can only take so many skill points with you that matter when boarding a ship, it in a way would close the gap a bit more between the vets and the young players.
It is a win win situation. So please grab CCP and convince them to make this change. It in no way makes the game more hard core like some of you like to brag about. It is just one of the mechanics that the game has outgrown.
You know I was just thinking that high skilled veteran players don't have enough advantages over low-skilled newbs. This would help widen the gap nicely.
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
1100
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 10:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bossy Lady wrote:You know I was just thinking that high skilled veteran players don't have enough advantages over low-skilled newbs. This would help widen the gap nicely.
By that mentality, how about we increase the clone upgrade cost by a factor of twenty?
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
141
|
Posted - 2012.06.10 13:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Bossy Lady wrote:You know I was just thinking that high skilled veteran players don't have enough advantages over low-skilled newbs. This would help widen the gap nicely. By that mentality, how about we increase the clone upgrade cost by a factor of twenty?
Naw...
A couple weeks ago I was having a discussion with a few others about changes - one thing that was brought up was ships + pods -- where pods now have the value of implants shown.
What we were discussing, and was to be put together and forwarded to the CSM, is about fleshing that out more:
Insurance costs & payouts need to be added/removed from kill/loss mails. Along with ... med-clone costs and such. If not covered, include *THAT* info. (for the PvP person who lands, jumps in a ship and rushes out without remembering to update their med clone).
Your suggestion... I have no thoughts on it in either direction but I figured the above might carry some meaning for you.
As for the person you are replying to:
Vets aren't much different than many other players. Some have 5+ alts with a batch doing semi-passive income, etc. Others are running far thinner on their income work/efforts to beef up their banks and invest a lot more time in actually playing portions of the game that put them at risk.
The distinction between a 1 year old chars earnings potential and a 3 year old chars is fairly trivial yet the isk costs just keep growing. "Diminishing returns" as skills take longer and longer to squeeze out those final points of optimization.
Beyond 3 years old, the differences between 2 combat focused chars is who chooses what to fly - one will have more options but that's about it. I'm pretty much there now and I haven't quite hit that 3 year mark.
So if "char based" comparison of earnings potential isn't continuing to rise, why should clone costs keep going up?
Personally I don't care either way but I do recognize the limits. |
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
30
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 02:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Greetings
I agree that something should be done about the ever increasing clones cost for diminishing returns. Either cap the clone cost after 100 SP or offer up Content / New Shiny ships / reason to continue to train skills.
vr East IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES: -á" I drank WHAT?!" |
DeBingJos
Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance
286
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 08:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
Supported.
Decreaseing the cost would put more vets in smaller ships. Fix FW ! |
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K'rashu Graylock
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 18:16:00 -
[21] - Quote
Simply 'moving' the sink amount to another location does not result in an equal sink. You can get an average guess as to the monthly costs in total regarding the amount spent on clone upgrades, but that will fluctuate based on what's happening in the galaxy at large, and as such, simply increasing the costs in other sectors would not have the same market effect. The point is NOT moot, as you stated. A sink is not just a sink, it's a sink for a sector -- this one happens to be a sink that applies to every single pilot in the game. I would even go so far as to say DOUBLE the cost of clone upgrades.
Furthermore, the cost is next to nothing for most players, and if the clone cost is really hurting your wallet that bad, then you need to learn how to not be podded. The cost of a ship, insurance, modules and implants greatly outweigh the cost of a clone upgrade, which, if you have even a modicum of hand-eye co-ordination should be an investment that sticks with you long after your ship explodes leaving you behind.
However, the idea of being able to set up a corporate fund for member's clone upgrades IS an outstanding idea. Jesus_Christ renamed to Scoreboard. Scoreboard kills himself. |
Bossy Lady
Aliastra Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 19:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Bossy Lady wrote:You know I was just thinking that high skilled veteran players don't have enough advantages over low-skilled newbs. This would help widen the gap nicely. By that mentality, how about we increase the clone upgrade cost by a factor of twenty?
Sounds good. Let's do it. Life should be precious.
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1131
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 19:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
finally a good idea
clone costs are stupid |
Bossy Lady
Aliastra Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 19:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:finally a good idea
clone costs are stupid
I can repair my giant spaceship that's the size of a small island for free but have to pay tens of millions to update a clone
I can get my 2 ton car fixed for a few hundred dollars but treating a cancer the size of my thumb can cost thousands of times more than that.
Oh look costs aren't directly proportional to mass
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1134
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 19:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
Bossy Lady wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:finally a good idea
clone costs are stupid
I can repair my giant spaceship that's the size of a small island for free but have to pay tens of millions to update a clone I can get my 2 ton car fixed for a few hundred dollars but treating a cancer the size of my thumb can cost thousands of times more than that. Oh look costs aren't directly proportional to mass In your third world country, maybe.
Down with space-fines |
Anrj
Z3R0 RETURN MINING INC. Li3 Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.11 19:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
How about letting players produce clones to either sell on the market and/or keep for their own supply? Physical bodies can be made through new PI commodities, while the actual implant is created through reverse engineering of Sleeper loot. Some balancing would be needed, and I wouldn't want to see this just implemented without it being slowly introduced. How could this happen? The beginning is easier to see, but how would this look six months later, one year, five years? To start, a new set of skills, BPO's, and BPC's would be needed to produce the clones. Second as time goes on, the limit of SP retained per clone grows along with the BP. Third, and this is where much discussion is needed, does this need to be consistent with Dust514 mercs? I think so. Finally, are they even the same type of clone? They seem pretty similar to me to at least warrant a spot on the market. As I understand, merc clones will be provided freely(whether this is only for the people in npc corps is unknown), it's just the equipment that will cost anything to lose. They will need a lot more clones than your average capsuleers so it can't cost them what they're running for in Eve, and how cheap is too cheap in Eve to still enforce that sense of loss? |
Signal11th
507
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 07:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
+1 supported God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
159
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 12:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
0.0 alliances should be allowed to set the clone costs in their stations (to zero if they want)
Want a free clone? Join a spaceholding alliance. |
Marlona Sky
Massive PVPness Psychotic Tendencies.
1137
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 18:34:00 -
[29] - Quote
CSM?? Hellooooooooo....
Are you going to open a dialog with the players on this topic? Have you talked with CCP?
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
430
|
Posted - 2012.06.13 19:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
CSM IT HAS BEEN FIVE (5) DAYS SINCE I MADE THIS PROPOSAL THREAD HAVE YOU OPENED A DIALOG WITH THE DEVELOPERS YET ABOUT THIS ISSUE |
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