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Helmut 314
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Posted - 2004.10.27 10:27:00 -
[1]
Hi all.
Im considering one of the Amarr assault frigs for some PvP work and of course the Coolness value of having one. I have a Crusader and I love it, but sometimes you want more firepower and durability than a interceptor can supply.
Vengeance looks very sleek and dangerous, has interesting slots but no damage bonus. The Retribution is beautiful although seems a bit hampered by the single medslot, but should be like the Crusader, insane damage dealer.
In your experience dear Amarr assault pilots, which one is better and how do you suggest I set it up for max damage and survivability ?
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Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson |
Helmut 314
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Posted - 2004.10.27 10:27:00 -
[2]
Hi all.
Im considering one of the Amarr assault frigs for some PvP work and of course the Coolness value of having one. I have a Crusader and I love it, but sometimes you want more firepower and durability than a interceptor can supply.
Vengeance looks very sleek and dangerous, has interesting slots but no damage bonus. The Retribution is beautiful although seems a bit hampered by the single medslot, but should be like the Crusader, insane damage dealer.
In your experience dear Amarr assault pilots, which one is better and how do you suggest I set it up for max damage and survivability ?
___________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson |
Jolly Death
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Posted - 2004.10.27 10:41:00 -
[3]
Well, since neither is a very good tackler and both are very slow even with a mwd I¦d say the Retribution is the better one of these. Fit 2 cap relays on the lowslots and you will have the same cap recharge as the vengance with more cap/armor/firepower at the expense of 2 medslots. These ships are really only meant to take down other frigates and will do their best job guarding friendly battleships I think.
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Jolly Death
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Posted - 2004.10.27 10:41:00 -
[4]
Well, since neither is a very good tackler and both are very slow even with a mwd I¦d say the Retribution is the better one of these. Fit 2 cap relays on the lowslots and you will have the same cap recharge as the vengance with more cap/armor/firepower at the expense of 2 medslots. These ships are really only meant to take down other frigates and will do their best job guarding friendly battleships I think.
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Trevedian
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Posted - 2004.10.27 13:25:00 -
[5]
I have flown both, and both suck imo. The Minmatar Assault ships easily own them... But if you need to pick 1 the Retribution has more firepower and is better for PVP and the Vengeance is more versatile (having more than 1 mid-slot).
Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
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Trevedian
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Posted - 2004.10.27 13:25:00 -
[6]
I have flown both, and both suck imo. The Minmatar Assault ships easily own them... But if you need to pick 1 the Retribution has more firepower and is better for PVP and the Vengeance is more versatile (having more than 1 mid-slot).
Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
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Alt Spy
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Posted - 2004.10.27 13:37:00 -
[7]
The minmatar ones can not win this 1v1 easily vs a Retribution. They may be able to run after they realize they the will lose but access denied so to speak. 1 webifier is all that is needed on a Retribution to make a pile of junk of any other frigate
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Alt Spy
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Posted - 2004.10.27 13:37:00 -
[8]
The minmatar ones can not win this 1v1 easily vs a Retribution. They may be able to run after they realize they the will lose but access denied so to speak. 1 webifier is all that is needed on a Retribution to make a pile of junk of any other frigate
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.10.28 01:20:00 -
[9]
Retribution is better for NPCing and mission running. In PvP, you need to be in a "punch" wing with someone else, preferably in a Malediction or a Vengeance, to scram and web the target. Unless you're satisfied with a definition of PvP as having the gun running away smoking as your victory in the end, not a kill.
If you're going to kill, really kill, like someone else in an inty or another frig, you will definitely need a web, scrambler, one of the either or both. A lot of frigate duties involve the frigate pilot tackling a larger target like a cruiser or battleship to prevent it from escaping and let the punchers finish it off.
While lacking the brute power and easy paper stats of the Retribution, I feel that the Vengeance is more carefully designed. It's single missile launcher can let you use defenders to fend off missiles, or add capless firepower like rockets or missiles. It has a range bonus per assault level, which let you shoot and engage without falling into your opponent's web range. It has a cap recharge rate bonus that is handy for running your own webbers and scramblers.
My feeling is that eventually the vengeance will come around once its virtues are better realized. But it is too expensive, like using a BMW in a roller derby. A Malediction or yes, a Maller or Omen with an MWD, can do the web and scram job for much less cost.
_______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.10.28 01:20:00 -
[10]
Retribution is better for NPCing and mission running. In PvP, you need to be in a "punch" wing with someone else, preferably in a Malediction or a Vengeance, to scram and web the target. Unless you're satisfied with a definition of PvP as having the gun running away smoking as your victory in the end, not a kill.
If you're going to kill, really kill, like someone else in an inty or another frig, you will definitely need a web, scrambler, one of the either or both. A lot of frigate duties involve the frigate pilot tackling a larger target like a cruiser or battleship to prevent it from escaping and let the punchers finish it off.
While lacking the brute power and easy paper stats of the Retribution, I feel that the Vengeance is more carefully designed. It's single missile launcher can let you use defenders to fend off missiles, or add capless firepower like rockets or missiles. It has a range bonus per assault level, which let you shoot and engage without falling into your opponent's web range. It has a cap recharge rate bonus that is handy for running your own webbers and scramblers.
My feeling is that eventually the vengeance will come around once its virtues are better realized. But it is too expensive, like using a BMW in a roller derby. A Malediction or yes, a Maller or Omen with an MWD, can do the web and scram job for much less cost.
_______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.10.28 02:19:00 -
[11]
Wonder how many posts like these it'll take before CCP takes their ship-balancing chief out back behind the shed and puts him down. It's been a long time coming.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.10.28 02:19:00 -
[12]
Wonder how many posts like these it'll take before CCP takes their ship-balancing chief out back behind the shed and puts him down. It's been a long time coming.
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Helmut 314
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Posted - 2004.10.28 07:57:00 -
[13]
Thanks for your input.
I realize of course that an assault frigate is not about running your opponent to ground, unless its an industrial or something.
Webbers and scrambler are short ranged, if I want to be that close I would use my Crusader instead.
As I stated in my original post I am interested in how tankable they are and how one sets them up for maximum damage output. Ive been doing some calculating and I can see that the Retribution is very tankable, but hampered by its lowish CPU, the Vengeance has plenty CPU but has fewer good defensive options and less offensive potential.
___________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson |
Helmut 314
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Posted - 2004.10.28 07:57:00 -
[14]
Thanks for your input.
I realize of course that an assault frigate is not about running your opponent to ground, unless its an industrial or something.
Webbers and scrambler are short ranged, if I want to be that close I would use my Crusader instead.
As I stated in my original post I am interested in how tankable they are and how one sets them up for maximum damage output. Ive been doing some calculating and I can see that the Retribution is very tankable, but hampered by its lowish CPU, the Vengeance has plenty CPU but has fewer good defensive options and less offensive potential.
___________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson |
Garramon
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Posted - 2004.10.28 09:20:00 -
[15]
Well, sorry Helmut, this wont help you, but I would just like to say to those replying that I don't think Assault frigates are necessarily designed to get the kill, but rather to keep the tackling frigates off a Battleships back. And by sending them running off smoking you have accomplished your task. ------------------------------------------------
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Garramon
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Posted - 2004.10.28 09:20:00 -
[16]
Well, sorry Helmut, this wont help you, but I would just like to say to those replying that I don't think Assault frigates are necessarily designed to get the kill, but rather to keep the tackling frigates off a Battleships back. And by sending them running off smoking you have accomplished your task. ------------------------------------------------
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2004.10.28 14:21:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 28/10/2004 14:26:22 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 28/10/2004 14:26:08
Originally by: Garramon Well, sorry Helmut, this wont help you, but I would just like to say to those replying that I don't think Assault frigates are necessarily designed to get the kill, but rather to keep the tackling frigates off a Battleships back. And by sending them running off smoking you have accomplished your task.
I really wish they had kept the original name of "escort frigate", it describes the so-called assault frigate much better. They excel at defensive duties and as offensive anti-frigate firepower, but using them the same way you would use an inty is just asking for frustrations. Can't fly them yet so can't comment further, but an Ishkur is on the near-future shopping list and a lot of pilots seem to be having fun with them.
I suspect the assault frigs are quite balanced, it's just that people haven't quite figured out how best to use them yet.
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2004.10.28 14:21:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 28/10/2004 14:26:22 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 28/10/2004 14:26:08
Originally by: Garramon Well, sorry Helmut, this wont help you, but I would just like to say to those replying that I don't think Assault frigates are necessarily designed to get the kill, but rather to keep the tackling frigates off a Battleships back. And by sending them running off smoking you have accomplished your task.
I really wish they had kept the original name of "escort frigate", it describes the so-called assault frigate much better. They excel at defensive duties and as offensive anti-frigate firepower, but using them the same way you would use an inty is just asking for frustrations. Can't fly them yet so can't comment further, but an Ishkur is on the near-future shopping list and a lot of pilots seem to be having fun with them.
I suspect the assault frigs are quite balanced, it's just that people haven't quite figured out how best to use them yet.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.10.28 14:56:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
I suspect the assault frigs are quite balanced, it's just that people haven't quite figured out how best to use them yet.
It's not rocket science, there is no uber leet passcode to get these frigs to work. The point is they can't do anything better then a cruiser/inty. The price doesn't help either. ________________________________________________________
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.10.28 14:56:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
I suspect the assault frigs are quite balanced, it's just that people haven't quite figured out how best to use them yet.
It's not rocket science, there is no uber leet passcode to get these frigs to work. The point is they can't do anything better then a cruiser/inty. The price doesn't help either. ________________________________________________________
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.10.28 15:06:00 -
[21]
AF's aren't bad but they do need a bit more speed.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.10.28 15:06:00 -
[22]
AF's aren't bad but they do need a bit more speed.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2004.10.28 15:26:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 28/10/2004 15:30:16
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
I suspect the assault frigs are quite balanced, it's just that people haven't quite figured out how best to use them yet.
It's not rocket science, there is no uber leet passcode to get these frigs to work. The point is they can't do anything better then a cruiser/inty. The price doesn't help either.
Well, the price point is true, with current pricing they don't really make "sense". But since there is no reason why their price shouldn't drop to around the same as inties at some point, I think they will find regular use in the long run.
They are smaller (i.e. harder to hit) than cruisers, they tend to have range bonuses with small weapons (making them very good at shooting down frigates), they have fast locking, and they have excellent passive shield and armor resists. If you ignore the price point, I suspect they do a better job at anti-frigate duty than a cruiser would. But again, I have no personal experience with them yet, this is from looking at the specs and reading posts of this forum - so I could be totally wrong
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2004.10.28 15:26:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 28/10/2004 15:30:16
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
I suspect the assault frigs are quite balanced, it's just that people haven't quite figured out how best to use them yet.
It's not rocket science, there is no uber leet passcode to get these frigs to work. The point is they can't do anything better then a cruiser/inty. The price doesn't help either.
Well, the price point is true, with current pricing they don't really make "sense". But since there is no reason why their price shouldn't drop to around the same as inties at some point, I think they will find regular use in the long run.
They are smaller (i.e. harder to hit) than cruisers, they tend to have range bonuses with small weapons (making them very good at shooting down frigates), they have fast locking, and they have excellent passive shield and armor resists. If you ignore the price point, I suspect they do a better job at anti-frigate duty than a cruiser would. But again, I have no personal experience with them yet, this is from looking at the specs and reading posts of this forum - so I could be totally wrong
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Nighthawk
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Posted - 2004.10.28 15:40:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Nighthawk on 28/10/2004 15:46:10 Edited by: Nighthawk on 28/10/2004 15:42:49
Quote: The point is they can't do anything better then a cruiser/inty.
it seems to me that far to many people seem to think assault frigates are comparable to interceptors...... when they are bothy built for totally different roles!!!!
a ceptor is the choice if u want to intercept enemy frigates or act as a tackler for a fleet.......
assault frigates (ESCORT frigate) are built for floating alongside big ships and pwning the ceptors that come in to try and scramble/web the big ships...... and this they do admirably.....
personally i wouldnt take an interceptor near an assault frigate, as the assault would shred it in seconds or force it to warp out and the ceptor would never get thru the tank of an assault before it died anyway. and i also wouldnt even attempt to use an assault frigate to try and catch anything else to web/scramble/kill..... as u wont catch them anyway, and tbh most of my interceptors seem to have just as much, if not more firepower (due to bonuses) than the assaults.....
Quote: Webbers and scrambler are short ranged, if I want to be that close I would use my Crusader instead.
i use a webifier on my harpy so when things like ceptors do close in i still hit them with all my guns......cause u aint outrunning anything when u drive around at 300m/sec......
--- All hail to the mighty space hamster!!! --- |
Nighthawk
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Posted - 2004.10.28 15:40:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Nighthawk on 28/10/2004 15:46:10 Edited by: Nighthawk on 28/10/2004 15:42:49
Quote: The point is they can't do anything better then a cruiser/inty.
it seems to me that far to many people seem to think assault frigates are comparable to interceptors...... when they are bothy built for totally different roles!!!!
a ceptor is the choice if u want to intercept enemy frigates or act as a tackler for a fleet.......
assault frigates (ESCORT frigate) are built for floating alongside big ships and pwning the ceptors that come in to try and scramble/web the big ships...... and this they do admirably.....
personally i wouldnt take an interceptor near an assault frigate, as the assault would shred it in seconds or force it to warp out and the ceptor would never get thru the tank of an assault before it died anyway. and i also wouldnt even attempt to use an assault frigate to try and catch anything else to web/scramble/kill..... as u wont catch them anyway, and tbh most of my interceptors seem to have just as much, if not more firepower (due to bonuses) than the assaults.....
Quote: Webbers and scrambler are short ranged, if I want to be that close I would use my Crusader instead.
i use a webifier on my harpy so when things like ceptors do close in i still hit them with all my guns......cause u aint outrunning anything when u drive around at 300m/sec......
--- All hail to the mighty space hamster!!! --- |
Helmut 314
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Posted - 2004.10.28 16:08:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert AF's aren't bad but they do need a bit more speed.
Well, that part doesnt really help me, does it ? Thats the kind of comment you should direct to CCP Hammer,
Oh mighty Vorlon Hammer do not nerf the Coercer
, not to me.
So far the best suggestion is to fit a webifier then. Thats not a very damaging module and it does very little for my tank as well, but its nevertheless a good point.
I can think of two possible reasons why noone is willing to share their Retribution and Vengeance experiences.
1. People have sikrit uber setups that wtfpwn everything and doesnt want anyone to find out.
2. Noone has ever used a Retribution or Vengeance in PvP except Trevedian and he thinks they suck.
Care to share ?
___________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson |
Helmut 314
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Posted - 2004.10.28 16:08:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert AF's aren't bad but they do need a bit more speed.
Well, that part doesnt really help me, does it ? Thats the kind of comment you should direct to CCP Hammer,
Oh mighty Vorlon Hammer do not nerf the Coercer
, not to me.
So far the best suggestion is to fit a webifier then. Thats not a very damaging module and it does very little for my tank as well, but its nevertheless a good point.
I can think of two possible reasons why noone is willing to share their Retribution and Vengeance experiences.
1. People have sikrit uber setups that wtfpwn everything and doesnt want anyone to find out.
2. Noone has ever used a Retribution or Vengeance in PvP except Trevedian and he thinks they suck.
Care to share ?
___________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson |
Veneth
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Posted - 2004.10.28 16:55:00 -
[29]
not totally sure Helmut. After AFs where out for a bit I went and bought a Vengeance. I equipped it like my ceptor than quickly unequipped it cause it's obviously not ment for the same role.
I have my Vengence equipped with some tech2 medium beams and it does a good job and crushing other frigs and intys, but than one day I went and bought the Ishkur and it just seems sooo much better at the same task. perhaps it's my tastes but the amarr AFs do seem a bit.. lackluster atm
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Veneth
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Posted - 2004.10.28 16:55:00 -
[30]
not totally sure Helmut. After AFs where out for a bit I went and bought a Vengeance. I equipped it like my ceptor than quickly unequipped it cause it's obviously not ment for the same role.
I have my Vengence equipped with some tech2 medium beams and it does a good job and crushing other frigs and intys, but than one day I went and bought the Ishkur and it just seems sooo much better at the same task. perhaps it's my tastes but the amarr AFs do seem a bit.. lackluster atm
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