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Bortagguss
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.06.08 22:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
with small gang pvp and pve in mind which is better? |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
109
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Posted - 2012.06.08 23:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Oneiros is better, unless you have another Guardian to pair up with. Then the Guardian is better. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
176
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Posted - 2012.06.09 00:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Oneiros is better, unless you have another Guardian to pair up with. Then the Guardian is better.
Until one gets jammed, or get killed, then Oneiros is better again.
You only have to jam/kill one guardian to put the other out of commission. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
190
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Posted - 2012.06.09 01:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Not really that comparable.
Large, stable, heavy gangs - Guards (or mixed guards and Onerios fueled by guard transfers)
Small, bursting, skirmish gangs - Onerios with dual prop and cap boosters.
Guardians are great when they can run as a stable unit cap chained and ABing around to mitigate damage, provided the fleet isn't faster than them. (Onerios can be mixed into this role with specific fits - makes jamming more difficult)
Onerios are great for skirmishing, cap boosted means fight length is limited, MWD lets them keep up with gangs, smartbomb lets them clear ECM drones. Bursts of RR only, can also be self rep fit occasionally.
Similar logic holds for the shield logi, however cap stable fits are possible with scimis which makes them vary slightly from onerios. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
181
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Posted - 2012.06.09 04:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Not really that comparable.
Large, stable, heavy gangs - Guards (or mixed guards and Onerios fueled by guard transfers)
Small, bursting, skirmish gangs - Onerios with dual prop and cap boosters.
Guardians are great when they can run as a stable unit cap chained and ABing around to mitigate damage, provided the fleet isn't faster than them. (Onerios can be mixed into this role with specific fits - makes jamming more difficult)
Onerios are great for skirmishing, cap boosted means fight length is limited, MWD lets them keep up with gangs, smartbomb lets them clear ECM drones. Bursts of RR only, can also be self rep fit occasionally.
Similar logic holds for the shield logi, however cap stable fits are possible with scimis which makes them vary slightly from onerios.
Onieros is cap stable with 2 cap rechargers, leaving several mids free for whatever. Scimi's feature is speed and sig, cap stability is besides the point. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Addrake
Origin. Black Legion.
26
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Posted - 2012.06.09 05:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
TLDR: Having flown scimitars and guardians almost every night for the last year, the self sustaining scimi/onieros are the better of the four. Basilisks/Guardians look great on paper, but only perform that well in pve. Onieros is better in pvp, guardian is better for PvE.
ECM: I have sat in a scimitar, with lg jackals, and an eccm ladar overheated, and still gotten jammed out every cycle by scorps/falcons. And that sensor strength will only save you half the time from swarms of 30+ ec-300 drones. When you are flying armor setups in large fleet pvp you are either running as logi for AHACS or Hellcats, both of which you use a 10mn AB II. You can't outrun the ec-300's optimal effectively with an AB like you can a microwarp drive. So good luck sitting in a guardian and being capped out because you and your partners are capable of only 50% up time towards the start of a fight.
In small gangs you're more likely to run into falcons, so sensor strength is still an issue here, but on top of that in a small gang (maybe 2 or 3 onieros) you are going to be using a mwd. Oneiros fit much easier, and have a much better tank against drakes, which you'll probably run into if you're stirring up some randoms home system. |
GreenSeed
47
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Posted - 2012.06.09 05:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
i would argue that on PVE, considering that most PVE consists on webbing/painting targets and applying DPS, oneiros/scimi are better due to the awesome tracking bonuses they provide.
A dual link oneiros takes some SP to fit, but will share a nice +45% tracking to two ships, or +52% with faction links, this with 80km range (95km faction) thatGÇÖs a nice boost to any fleets effective DPS. or you could swich to a no script link and help snipers on incursion fleets do their job without going for the very low DPS Tech2 range ammo, and using faction instead.
IGÇÖm not too sure about a dual link scimi, my logi char only flies oneiros and basilisks, so i canGÇÖt tell if the cap can handle it w/o compromising the tank.
and yeah on pvp, those tracking links become free slots for cap boosters, +cap to fit a mwd, eccm, you name it. |
Lili Lu
266
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Posted - 2012.06.09 12:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
For small(er) gang warfare Oneiros is better. You are cap independent, and your highest resist is kientic. Chances are you will encounter lots of Drakes spewing kinetic missiles. Guardians high explo resist is more advantageous in larg(er) fleet warfare with usually lots of alpha arty enemy fleets. Regardless, don't forget to fit an eccm.
But sadly, you probably will have few chances to use it. Small gang is almost wholly a shield tanking affair. Until the mobility penalties with armor buffers are addressed. Either plates and armor rigs need to lose or lessen their penalties, and/or the hp-only platings and membranes need a buff. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
160
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Posted - 2012.06.09 15:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Until the mobility penalties with armor buffers are addressed. Either plates and armor rigs need to lose or lessen their penalties, and/or the hp-only platings and membranes need a buff.
Plates penalties are a huge, if not the greatest problem coupled with active armor reps for armor tanking and Membrane EHP bonus is far too ridiculous to be used in something else than capitals
Hope this crap stuff will be fixed at some point but knowing how bad or wrongly done are major fixes we'll probably get worst drawbacks than we already have. brb |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
122
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Posted - 2012.06.09 19:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ever since the Oneiros buff, it has been preferred in incursions over the Guardian due to its tracking links. I'ld say unless the FC specifically needs Guards (e.g. cap battery for Bhaal), the Oneiros is a better choice.
Given that Logi V is the skill to have however, switching between an Oneiros and Guardian (or even Scimi) is but a rank 5 skill away. |
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