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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.11.13 09:44:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik SiSi Naglfar:
Quote: Minmatar Dreadnought Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Capital Projectile damage per level 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level.
:-(
... Oh-kay. If this stays, my take on the numbers:
Short-range Naglfar with 2*BCU2, 1*Gyro2 will get 2795 DPS from ACs (with new EMP), 3929 DPS from torps and 263 DPS from Bouncer IIs, so 6987 DPS total. Very close to Moros/Rev. Phoenix will do about 22% more.
Long-range with same 2*BCU2, 1*Gyro2 will get 1552 DPS from arties (with EMP), 2140 DPS from cruises and 263 DPS from Bouncer IIs, so 3955 DPS total. Pretty similar to other dreads. -- Gradient forum |
Fuujin
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2009.11.13 15:00:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Oedus Caro
Originally by: Theron Gyrow I did some number-crunching with numbers reported from SiSi - if you notice mistakes / wrong numbers, please let me know.
All dreads with maxed skills, 3*damage mod, 5*Bouncer II, short-range weapons and ammo:
Phoenix (new kinetic torps): 8547 DPS (8285 DPS from torps), 37km range.
In other words, the ships not needing cap to fire, able to pick the damage type they do (even if only somewhat with Phoenix) _and_ better able to fit damage mods do about 1/4-1/3 more damage than the ships that need cap and are stuck with the damage types and which gimp their tank worse when fitting damage mods. No, this is not balanced.
All dreads with maxed skills, 3*damage mod, 5*Bouncer II, long-range weapons and shortest-range ammo (if no changes to arty DPS and rail/beam RoF same as in TQ):
Phoenix (new kinetic cruises): 3671 DPS from missiles + 263 DPS from drones = 3934 DPS total, theoretical range 157km. Revelation: 3743 DPS + 263 DPS from drones = 4006 DPS total, 45km optimal + 28km falloff
I don't know if Naglfar will be badly enough hampered by the long-range ammo change that Moros/Revelation will be competitive at extreme-range sniping, but even if that was a viable tactic to use, the balance seems pretty bad here, too.
Barely more than two weeks to go now and crap like this is still being touted by CCP as "balanced" - my oh my. Pretty planets aside, I have a bad feeling this patch is going to be a proper debacle, CCP. Get with it, SoonÖ.
Well, if it makes you feel better the Phoenix and citadel portion of the Naglfar's DPS will only be doing HALF the max DPS unless its shooting at a Titan. The Explosion Radius nerf is very severe in that regard. And forget about shooting ANYTHING smaller than a dread or medium tower--you'll do less damage than a Thorax.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Meltdown Luftfahrttechnik
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Posted - 2009.11.13 15:31:00 -
[243]
No, nononononononononoooo. Don't reintroduce split weapon bonuses *sob* They are evil and we just got rid of them. Please.
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Ragel Tropxe
DEATHFUNK Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.13 16:38:00 -
[244]
Edited by: Ragel Tropxe on 13/11/2009 16:41:56 so CCP, whats the rationale for
a/ Nerfing the Naglfar (after years of waiting for it to be buffed) b/ The ridiculous numbers of the cit torp and cit cruise explosion velocity???
I have now lost what little faith I had in your ability to balance the game. what is going on??
p.s dont think by just sneaking these changes onto sis you can get away with stealth nerfs - people spot these changes and then it looks like your being less than honest with your customers
p.s to all you EFT warriors spouting massive theoretical dps numbers - consider the effect of 1. missile speed 2. explosion velocity. I do hope CCP isnt taking any notice of the numbers you are producing to base their balance decisions on
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Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.13 17:33:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Arkady Sadik SiSi Naglfar:
Quote: Minmatar Dreadnought Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Capital Projectile damage per level 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level.
:-(
We've only just had the Naglfar refocussed to have its damage primarily turret based.
Reconsider this, CCP. If you need to reduce capital ship damage, so be it, but don't undo the granting of the focus that the ship was finally given after years of petitioning for it.
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.11.13 20:29:00 -
[246]
I don't even believe dread damage reduction is a wise move anyway. Either way there needs to be some sort of none godawful explanation for what the hell the vision is, and your rationale for random nerf's. ____ Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.13 20:43:00 -
[247]
I'm going to reserve judgement on what looks like an across-the-board reduction in capital ship damage until I see the blog that has been mentioned that is forthcoming. Until then, I feel that reversing the much-requested focus on turret damage for the Naglfar is by far the greater of the two evils.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.14 02:25:00 -
[248]
Naglfars were clearly completely overpowered.
Jesus christ CCP, are you into the 'make balance decisions by throwing darts at the wallchart' phase of dominion now? The naglfar was finally starting to look like a competitive choice and actually justify the extra training time we had to shovel into the split weapons systems, and now (on top of hitting us for even more training time with the Citadel Cruises) it gets a pointless nerf out of the blue and returns to split bonuses because, hey, we can't minmatar actually being good at anything, now can we?
Your only saving grace here is that people are so dumbfounded by the modifications you've announced to the 0.0 economy, and the ongoing supercap farce, that this stealth Naglfar nerf has slipped out almost unnoticed. So congratulations on that, I guess.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.14 02:33:00 -
[249]
As an aside, I'd like to point out that having spent most of this week posting in agreement with AAA, Atlas and IT alliance members about various dumb changes for Dominion, I'm now posting in a thread where I, as a goon am in agreement with a member of the ****ing STAR FRACTION.
what the hell is going on here
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Draahk Chimera
Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.14 10:25:00 -
[250]
So... When dreads came out and was new and exiting I trained up Caldari BS 5, since I already had torpedoes 5. Since then I have been the object of ridicule and scorn for flying the LOLdread, doing 1/3 of the dps of other dreads, and this with a 30s delay to the damage. Having already switched to flying mostly minmatar on all other shipclasses I decided enough is enough and two weeks ago I started training minmatar bs 5. And then CCP goes and makes naglfar the LOLdread II, again! Sure the nerfbat goes around the races all the time, back in the day amarr was the LOLrace for pvp, then they where fixed and minmatar was screwed and so forth. So training a new race for HACs and stuff once in a while is inevitable. But for dreads it's just too much bloody work. Just keep nag the way it is so caldari and minmatar pilots can be effective in dreadfleets too, please.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.11.14 17:44:00 -
[251]
OMFG.. naglfar is WEAKER than it used to be ? Who in hell had this incredbly stupid idea?
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.11.14 21:42:00 -
[252]
Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 14/11/2009 21:42:39 WHAT
1. The Ion Siege, Dual Giga Pulse and 6x2500mm should be removed from the game. 2. Their role should be partially replaced by Siege Module scripts.
WHY
1. If you commit to taking down a POS you risk being hotdropped by an enemy who will decide the engagement range. Even if your newly-improved Ion Siege can hit a large POS at optimal, no one would trade a slight damage bump for the complete inability to do anything at range. 2. Large fleets will still idle in front of a tower for 10 minutes in siege mode even if they have the DPS to raze it in 5. Past some point, short range weapons have zero purpose even when there is absolutely no risk of hotdrop. 3. There are no point-blank capital engagements where everybody is in optimal of short range guns because capitals will bump and spread wide even if both sides don't want them to. 4. Long range guns can hit other dreadnaughts at short ranges perfectly fine, since they're both stationary.
HOW
1. Create three scripts for mandatory use with Siege Module 1. 2. First script makes ship and siege perform the same as it does now. 3. Second script +15% damage, 2x strontium cost, 20 minute duration timer. 4. Third script +25% damage, 2.5x strontium cost, 30 minute duration timer.
BENEFITS
1. Dreadnaughts have more flexibility within their specific role while reducing the fitting variations that complicate the balancing process. 2. Lowers barriers to entry like excessive siege times for smaller groups without lowering consequences and risk. 3. Lowers the effort and time needed to clear out a broken alliance's infrastructure, while simultaneously giving said alliance an easier opportunity to strike back.
If you can't tell by now, I am not really a fan of these changes because the concept of short range dreadnaught guns is pretty dumb to begin with. Scripts would move tactical decision making to the field, away from the paper-rock-scissors gamble of the fitting screen.
And no, this isn't a new suggestion either, nor do I expect it to enter Dominion this late. But I've asked for it many times, and I feel its worthwhile to repeat better options even when they're not taken. People on both sides of the fence should never start assuming that a change made with good intentions will actually yield positive results. CCP's hit rate is under 50% and I imagine these tweaks won't be anything terribly relevant for improving cap warfare.
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Blazde
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.16 07:06:00 -
[253]
I give up. It was only a few months ago that the Nag and Phoenix (torps really) were balanced. That was difficult enough but very well done in the end and widely regarded as a success.
Most would agree some form of second XL missile type would be cool, but what is the justification for turning everything else on it's head? There are plenty of problems in EVE but balance between XL weapons, and balance between dreads, is surely not one of them.
Now all the feedback I've invested time in giving over the past months because I want to see the small kinks particularly in cap warfare ironed out, to make EVE a better game, seems to be entirely worthless because the rug is being turned upside down and nothing I've commented on exists anymore. Either you care about our feedback or you don't. I'm fairly happy either way (so long as you don't mess things up so much I need to find another game), but please don't keep telling us you want feedback if really you don't.
So is there actually any rationale for these changes or does CCP finally have too many game designers that now need to look for something to play with for the sake of it, so they have something to do? _
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Kai Lae
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.16 14:41:00 -
[254]
I'd love to hear what kind of justification you have for:
#1. Range nerfing the short range weapons. Falloff/optimal differentials may have needed a look, but why the sudden reduction? #2. Nerfing the naggy. Which was so clearly superior to everything before. YOU JUST FIXED THIS SHIP. Look around for the complaints about how overpowered it is. Hint: It's not overpowered. #3. Capital missile explosion radius making them ineffective against anything the size of a small moon. I can see having them not hit BS well, but not hitting other capitals well?
We'd love to give feedback on your ideas, but currently, what exactly are your ideas, because it seems you're changing them constantly, and nerfing things that didn't need them as well.
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The Economist
Logically Consistent
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Posted - 2009.11.16 17:08:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Kai Lae
We'd love to give feedback on your ideas, but currently, what exactly are your ideas, because it seems you're changing them constantly, and nerfing things that didn't need them as well.
Also gotta echo some of digi's sentiments....how and why exactly do you expect short range capital weapons to get used? Why being the most important one, I mean, do you understand the basics of how capital warfare works? They're a nice idea, but not a well thought out one.
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Myrkala
Minmatar Aurora Acclivitous
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Posted - 2009.11.16 19:08:00 -
[256]
I knew it was too good to be true, Minmatar pilots have to go back to comitting more slots to have comparable dps, resulting in lower dps.
Or they can use those slots to have a comparable tank to the other dreads but lower dps.
Either way you can never have both comparable damage and dps. Oh and you also have to train more skills to be fly this thing.
The changes to the naglfar were not just about dps, they were about it being unfair to train longer for something and as a consequence use more slots to be comparable in either.
The old naglfar changes enabled it to be comparable in both DPS and EHP. Can we have them back please?
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Hun Jakuza
24th Imperial Guard
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Posted - 2009.11.17 11:14:00 -
[257]
Another gallente and minmatar dread nerf again, congratulation CCP and Nozh.
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Nye Jaran
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Posted - 2009.11.17 17:16:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Hun Jakuza Another gallente and minmatar dread nerf again, congratulation CCP and Nozh.
Actually I think the only dread to emerge relatively unscathed is the Revelation. Phoenix pilots are worthless when engaging anything smaller than a medium tower, and they need to train Citadel Cruise now.
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Hun Jakuza
24th Imperial Guard
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Posted - 2009.11.18 06:32:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Nye Jaran
Originally by: Hun Jakuza Another gallente and minmatar dread nerf again, congratulation CCP and Nozh.
Actually I think the only dread to emerge relatively unscathed is the Revelation. Phoenix pilots are worthless when engaging anything smaller than a medium tower, and they need to train Citadel Cruise now.
Wait. A minmatar need to train for capitals: Cap armor and shield tank, capital guns, citadel torp and citadel cruise. Do you want to talk about more from citadel cruise missile ?
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Xandor M
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Posted - 2009.11.18 07:19:00 -
[260]
Seriously though, something needs to be done about the explosion radius of citadel torpedos/cruise missiles. The fact that a large portion of the damage is negated when shooting things like small control towers (which btw are what they're designed to shoot we're not talking shooting other capital ships here) is just outright silly.
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Nye Jaran
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Posted - 2009.11.18 16:51:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Originally by: Nye Jaran
Originally by: Hun Jakuza Another gallente and minmatar dread nerf again, congratulation CCP and Nozh.
Actually I think the only dread to emerge relatively unscathed is the Revelation. Phoenix pilots are worthless when engaging anything smaller than a medium tower, and they need to train Citadel Cruise now.
Wait. A minmatar need to train for capitals: Cap armor and shield tank, capital guns, citadel torp and citadel cruise. Do you want to talk about more from citadel cruise missile ?
I'm aware of this, since I do fly a Nag and have trained all of those skills (except Citadel Cruise, of course). I wasn't talking about who got nerfed the most. I was pointing out that the quoted post overlooked the nerf to the phoenix and the only race to come through this with a relatively untouched dread is the Amarr. Think it's time to start a "Nerf the Rev!" thread :p
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Succubine
Caldari Succubine Dynasty Technologies
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Posted - 2009.11.18 18:13:00 -
[262]
Switch a turret hardpoint to a missile launcher hardpoint on the Revelation and Moros while also giving them a split weapon bonus.
Lets see where the chaos leads.
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Cheekything
Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.
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Posted - 2009.11.19 01:09:00 -
[263]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Stuff
I don't think you've ever flown a dread before we don't want more damage at the cost of more time which i might add contradicted you point about what's the point of it if your still stuck in siege.
On to my other point.
Dread pilots want to kill stuff and kill everything and frankly should be able to be used as big heavy *****es again only to fear other dreads.
Screw the tracking penalties for starters if a bs isn't moving you should be able to put a huge hole through it's hull at maximum damage say 200% per a dread level then the Siege mod should give a 5 times mod right away so that towers and other structures can fear the dreads.
Dreads are meant to be feared why are you making them all soft and spongy with child safey stickers on them.
CCPs current line of thinking is just going to make eve boring you keep adding more HP to things we have to kill then making our guns that kill them smaller, the new weapons looked great when I first saw them bar the Moros nerf but now your taking the ****.
If you want to take our guns away give us MOAR MAG STABS -
Lastly if you feel inclined to make an official Cheekything's Modified Magnetic Stabliser with no bonuses i would be honoured Eve Ideas Dom Loves, Hates & Wants |
Suboran
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.20 12:26:00 -
[264]
Why nerf the naglfar again, It was buffed and deemed by many to be equal to the other dreads and very usuable.
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.11.20 14:07:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Suboran Why nerf the naglfar again, It was buffed and deemed by many to be equal to the other dreads and very usuable.
because on CCP nohz blindness he thinks that peopel wil be fitting the new useless torpedoes and AC on it and fighting at poitn blank range and it woudl be too powerful on that scenario that will NEVER happen.
So to avoid that a scenario that will NEVER happen to be overpowered.. he decided to nerf completely the realistic scenario of long range turrets and citatel cruises. Less damage on long range ammo, range of XL projectile turrets NERFED. Massive nerf to the bonuses... nerf of 50% to explosion radius of cit cruise..
aa yes and ccp nohz can still see this as an" overpowered monster".
I never ever seen someone as blind to real game mechanics usage in 20 years that I play computer games.
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Geralden
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Posted - 2009.11.20 14:35:00 -
[266]
Nerf, nerf nerf...
Do the devs even KNOW that TP's DOESNT WORK ON SUPERCAPITALS, SIEGED DREADS OR STRUCTURES ??
Play the game devs, or STOP fiddling with stuff you obviously dont get a clue on....
The phoenix is now less worthwhile than a RR BS to bring for a PoS takedown.... why not just delete the ship, free the space of that junk you are creating ?
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Kai Lae
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.20 14:56:00 -
[267]
Well it's now apparent that this entire thread was designed as "boob bait for the bubbas". Why solicit feedback when you have 0 intention of listening to any of it?
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Seishi Maru
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.11.20 15:19:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Geralden Nerf, nerf nerf...
Do the devs even KNOW that TP's DOESNT WORK ON SUPERCAPITALS, SIEGED DREADS OR STRUCTURES ??
Play the game devs, or STOP fiddling with stuff you obviously dont get a clue on....
The phoenix is now less worthwhile than a RR BS to bring for a PoS takedown.... why not just delete the ship, free the space of that junk you are creating ?
The phoenix at least didn't had its bonus nerfed because of the new "uber"torpedo that no one will use because has too short range and because its explosion radius keeps only titans as valid targets. But since naglfar can use this piece of crap weapon now.. then it needs to loose 72 % of the damage on its main weapon system. YES 72% 7.5% rof is 60% dps bonus.. and the damage bonus droped from 7.5% per level to 5% per level.
But won arguee that phoenix also got hit pretty hard by the explosion stuff.
I really really doubt anyone will keep a naglfar after this patch. Only sensible thing if you have ANY intelligence will be to reprocess it.
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Sfynx
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.21 04:17:00 -
[269]
Edited by: Sfynx on 21/11/2009 04:18:22 So what are the unique roles of the Phoenix and Nag really? For what reason should everyone and their grandma NOT choose to crosstrain for a Revelation?
I always had the role as a dedicated structure siege platform in mind for the Phoenix. Complete control of damage type against stuff that's stationary and big enough to hit fully. Looks like this feature is now deleted from the Phoenix also.
What thing that another dread can't do should Phoenix pilots rejoice about? Come on, make it better than the others in something other than collecting dust in hangars.
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AngusThermo
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Posted - 2009.11.21 10:04:00 -
[270]
Hope you insured your phoenix, cause that's all it's going to be used for, insurance payouts after patch.
I just wish i could get the skillpoints back, so i could use a real dread like the revelation
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