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Kurt Dyspare
Plaid Jello Inc
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Posted - 2009.10.11 09:04:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Kurt Dyspare on 11/10/2009 09:09:05
Originally by: Lecherito Ebank and staff took MD for over a trillion, and people are still entertaining their "expertise". How the bajeezus does that add up?-L
Make a lie big enough....
Simple fact is, a Director of Ebank's board, took their cash back. Unethical, probably, pragmatic, definitely. Ebank is currently holding the deposits of their customers hostage. Instead of doing an orderly run on the bank, they are stating "We know what is best, you do not. You have no choice." This is basically an incredibly polite theft. No matter the face you put on it, no matter how blameless Ray is after the fact, the simple truth is as such, they have stolen our money, and refuse to return it or a part of it. They have decided they know how to use our money, better then we do.
Lets be honest. EVEN if the remainder of Ebank could somehow turn what little they have into enough cash to restore all accounts to full, 30 seconds after they announced deposits available for withdrawal, there would be a run on the bank to rival the Baily Building and Loan Association.
Lastly, this announcement of further malfeasance comes neatly when the next so-called financial update is due. Now excuse me while I remove my tin-foil hat, but it just smacks of "Hey look at my left hand, not my right!".
Ray, you've been handed a **** sandwich, and told to make it appealing to your customers. You cannot. The proper end to this entire debacle should be, sell off ALL assets still held by Ebank. Take every isk that come from that, and then figure out what percentage can be paid out. Pay that out. Close every account you can. At a minimum, 1/4th of those accounts are zombies. Put a time frame on it, say 2 months. Announce it everywhere. At the end of those two months, start working at making money again to bring the deposits back up to where they should be. Those who are willing to work with you will keep their money in Ebank, and those who want to move on, will do so.
Trolls, flamers and idiots aside, you know this is the right thing to do, for both Ebank and it's customers. So, just cowboy up, and do it.
(edited because speling ise hurde)
--- Quare did pullus crux crucis via? |
Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.10.11 09:15:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Kurt Dyspare and refuse to return it or a part of it. They have decided they know how to use our money, better then we do.
In the upcoming announcement we will reveal how you can begin liquidating your accounts at a loss.
Originally by: Kurt Dyspare you know this is the right thing to do, for both Ebank and it's customers
I don't. What I know is that this is a complex situation with a multitude of solutions. For each person asking me to liquidate, I have others saying they won't accept anything less than full recovery.
It's our job to achieve a balance between those. So whilst our solutions might not be right up your tree, realise you're not the only tree in the forest.
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Kurt Dyspare
Plaid Jello Inc
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Posted - 2009.10.11 09:17:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Ray McCormack I don't. What I know is that this is a complex situation with a multitude of solutions. For each person asking me to liquidate, I have others saying they won't accept anything less than full recovery.
Then at least you know who will be sticking with you until you get fully back on your feet.
--- Quare did pullus crux crucis via? |
Ambo
I've Got Nothing
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Posted - 2009.10.11 09:19:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Ambo on 11/10/2009 09:20:11
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155 As if it matters at this point since most of you fail at reading but one last comment.
The issue IS NOT that a depositor found a way to get their isk back therefore we are calling them a thief, the issue is that a director who voted to freeze accounts and keep people from their isk does not feel as though they too should be included in this. He thought it was a fair move, and the only move to make at the time but did not feel like he should be included in the move. I have trouble understanding how some of you aren't getting that but then again a lot of you fail at reading so I guess it makes sense that you would miss the point.
As I understand it, Ebank employees were given the chance to withdraw their isk ahead of the announcement that accounts where being frozen.
That was surely also a case of the directors voting one way but then choosing not to be bound by what they'd said?
I don't really see Ana's actions as being much different --------------------------------------
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Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.10.11 09:25:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Ambo Ebank employees were given the chance to withdraw their isk ahead of the announcement that accounts where being frozen.
EBANK employees that had deposited ISK into their Sweep accounts when we were suffering a liquidity crisis were allowed to withdraw their funds. Those who had ISK in savings or checking accounts were not.
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DeathGrip
Amarr Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 10:28:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Athre
Originally by: DeathGrip
Per the savings account deal. He also opened one for me after no more accounts were to be created, but this was pretty much done across the board for everyone that I know of.
Excuse me? I did not hear of this being given to anyone post of the cut off date. I mean I know the button was there but I never gave someone nor did I hear of anyone ask or receiving such. This is quite news to me. WTF.
Quote: He(Anastasia) is just protecting his assets, can't blame him.
It is in poor form to not hold ones self to the same constraints that one would hold others. I disagree with your stance on this.
I am pretty sure you knew about the first part, but I can't prove it atm, but still looking.
--
I agree to your second part, but it's also in poor form to hold up trillions of isk that belong to other people because you as the BOD had zero clue of what was going on with isk for over a year now. Why was nobody else in TXD watching what ricdic was doing? Why was nobody watching the deposits that were coming through? I thought Lavista's job was to ensure that those type of frauds didn't happen, atleast from memory that was someone's job.
You can attack me and said I did the same thing, but I can atleast say I was watching what ricidc was doing, and at the same time making reports on problem area's I saw consistantly until I left. Just like the bad loans Ebank was giving out, I think I was the only person to work any of those for 3 months maybe longer? This was not so much on you Athre since I don't think you were BOD at the time, but soon after you were, why was the Bad loans still not taken care of?
Nobody including myself and including you was clean in this entire dealing, we could have all done more to prevent some of the things that had happend. The only 2 exceptions may be Shar as he tried to tell people and left Ebank prior to many issue's, and Ray since he just joined in on this mess. I do disagree with how he is trying to oust Anastasia though since many people would have done the same. I am surprised more of your people that owe you in loans don't do the same tbh, your not paying your investors why should they pay you.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.11 11:00:00 -
[67]
Originally by: DeathGrip
I agree to your second part, but it's also in poor form to hold up trillions of isk that belong to other people because you as the BOD had zero clue of what was going on with isk for over a year now.
So what would you have done? Let a run on the bank take place, meaning that 50% of the customers would lose all their ISK?
Quote: I thought Lavista's job was to ensure that those type of frauds didn't happen
No. I only dealt with RMT "fraud".
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Syphal
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Posted - 2009.10.11 11:07:00 -
[68]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: DeathGrip I thought Lavista's job was to ensure that those type of frauds didn't happen
No. I only dealt with RMT "fraud".
Oops! |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 11:10:00 -
[69]
Quote:
Nobody including myself and including you was clean in this entire dealing,
Well, the meme was: "we are a private institution..."
About Anastasia and those defending the "theft".
When you are a broker (EBANK played many effective - yet not named - roles including this) of some sort you get to know insider information.
Those taking advantage of insider information (if catched ofc) are incriminated. Description
Basically, you screwed up along with other people. You take it like a man and go down like them. Not flee like a scared lizard, leveraging on information and powers no outsider had.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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DeathGrip
Amarr Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 11:12:00 -
[70]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: DeathGrip
I agree to your second part, but it's also in poor form to hold up trillions of isk that belong to other people because you as the BOD had zero clue of what was going on with isk for over a year now.
So what would you have done? Let a run on the bank take place, meaning that 50% of the customers would lose all their ISK?
Quote: I thought Lavista's job was to ensure that those type of frauds didn't happen
No. I only dealt with RMT "fraud".
Without knowing all details; I would have came up with a way to offer customers that want out a way out, and those that want to stay in, continue to do so.
Now I am sure your new plan a few months later will be just this, if not I will be even more surprised. But it should not have taken a few months to come up with this plan.
---
Who was in charge of watching the deposits/withdraws/ and tellers then? I know somone was in charge just don't recall who specificaly.
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flakeys
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.10.11 11:16:00 -
[71]
It is nice to see updates like this from time to time for investors i would assume allthough they are not the ones they are hoping for.However i have seen these updates on the Dbank forum too where i do have some isk tied up unlike with Ebank and so far it is only words and no actions hence why my next question.
In regards to regaining isk has it so far only been checking everything and making a plan or has any isk allready been placed into possible ventures such as price changes with dominion coming up?
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DeathGrip
Amarr Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 11:17:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Nobody including myself and including you was clean in this entire dealing,
Well, the meme was: "we are a private institution..."
About Anastasia and those defending the "theft".
When you are a broker (EBANK played many effective - yet not named - roles including this) of some sort you get to know insider information.
Those taking advantage of insider information (if catched ofc) are incriminated. Description
Basically, you screwed up along with other people. You take it like a man and go down like them. Not flee like a scared lizard, leveraging on information and powers no outsider had.
I have always disagree'd with the "Private" thing. I have argued against it on these forums, while being flamed by the same people that are now saying they want there isk back.
What is Ebanks policy on the Private business now?
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.11 11:51:00 -
[73]
Originally by: DeathGrip
Without knowing all details; I would have came up with a way to offer customers that want out a way out, and those that want to stay in, continue to do so.
So you are saying that you would have rushed a buy-out offer before a full audit was done, meaning that people who wanted out right away would have lost an extra 5-10%, which has now been uncovered and accounted for?
The watching of deposits and withdrawals you refer to is the work I did to try and analyze RMT on the fly. As you would also know, I had to step down fairly shortly after, because of issues with RL.
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Julius Rigel
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:03:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Brock Nelson
Originally by: abraheam As someone who enjoys all aspects of this game I hope this changes the posture of this board regarding ingame banks.
The facts are that noone plays forever. Instead of spending so much time discussing the reputations and credibility of the banks under the current sham of a system I hope MD comes together and presses CCP for actual mechanics that make banks possible.
Why? That takes away the sandbox element of this game a little.
Wow, there's actually a second person out here that still believes in the sandbox? You're making me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Will you be my friend?
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.10.11 12:06:00 -
[75]
Quote: Woot, more epic md elite failures.
Ironically, this couldn't be even further from a failure if you think about it.
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Dzil
Caldari Sausage Banking
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Posted - 2009.10.11 13:47:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Lecherito
Originally by: MD OMG QUOTES OMG QUOTES OMG QUOTES
The "MD-who's who" has utterly failed the community more magnificently then I ever could have imagined. Looking forward to getting some new talent in there as soon as possible. As far as I'm concerned (and this should go for just about everyone), *anyone* affiliated with Ebank now or in the past (with Selene being the only notable exception) should be treated as a YGR/Riethe/CT. AmouredC took the MD for 600 million isk and has been universally black listed by just about everyone here. Ebank and staff took MD for over a trillion, and people are still entertaining their "expertise". How the bajeezus does that add up?
-L
Clearly no depositors feel completely confident that ebank has scammed for the full amount of isk. If this were the case, would these people not put their money where their mouths are when opportunities arose to sell off those accounts?
Dzil's Corp Sales - 200m |
Cinoke
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Posted - 2009.10.11 13:47:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom So it is ethical for EBank to steal a players ISK and hold it without that players input...
but it is unethical for a player to steal back their own ISK and hold it without EBanks input?
This was a hypocritical move by Anastasia Heron. You claimed it was theft. Please explain why you think that it is not theft for you to hold this individual's ISK without their consent, but that it IS theft for them to hold your ISK without your consent.
Also please explain why your reputation should not be tarnished for falsely calling someone a thief, and why someone should put any trust in you after making such a false claim.
QFT
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Leneerra
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.11 13:57:00 -
[78]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: DeathGrip
Without knowing all details; I would have came up with a way to offer customers that want out a way out, and those that want to stay in, continue to do so.
So you are saying that you would have rushed a buy-out offer before a full audit was done, meaning that people who wanted out right away would have lost an extra 5-10%, which has now been uncovered and accounted for?
The watching of deposits and withdrawals you refer to is the work I did to try and analyze RMT on the fly. As you would also know, I had to step down fairly shortly after, because of issues with RL.
Had you offered us that option it would have been our choice too make. You do not have to protect us from our own stupid mistakes. Investing with ebank has approxemately cost me 50 to 60% of the isk I deposited, that has by far been my worst investment in eve. It would have been awesome to have had the option to bug out over a month ago at a 55 to 65% loss.
PS I chose the term investing on purpose because basically that is what you turned it into.
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DeathGrip
Amarr Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 14:53:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Leneerra
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: DeathGrip
Without knowing all details; I would have came up with a way to offer customers that want out a way out, and those that want to stay in, continue to do so.
So you are saying that you would have rushed a buy-out offer before a full audit was done, meaning that people who wanted out right away would have lost an extra 5-10%, which has now been uncovered and accounted for?
The watching of deposits and withdrawals you refer to is the work I did to try and analyze RMT on the fly. As you would also know, I had to step down fairly shortly after, because of issues with RL.
Had you offered us that option it would have been our choice too make. You do not have to protect us from our own stupid mistakes. Investing with ebank has approxemately cost me 50 to 60% of the isk I deposited, that has by far been my worst investment in eve. It would have been awesome to have had the option to bug out over a month ago at a 55 to 65% loss.
PS I chose the term investing on purpose because basically that is what you turned it into.
Agre with the above 150%.
Also you mention I may gain 5-10% do to a 3 month audit, lets see, if I had a savings account that is 3% per month = 9% loss. So I wait 3mths to get 1% at best more isk? I understand you may actually find 20% or even 100%, but that is a chance investors make not the bank. Well atleast should be.
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DeathGrip
Amarr Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 15:17:00 -
[80]
Want to make another point,
Customer A) wants his isk now and soon as you offer it say at 40%, he accepts, he already lost 3mths of interst so really he is only getting 31%.
Customer B) waits a year to get full return, but that is interest free, meaning he loses 36% interest + compound. So he actually only gets about 60%. In the end everyone is losing a major chunk of isk no matter what you do.
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DeathGrip
Amarr Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 15:41:00 -
[81]
So Ebank says it will listen to other idea's, I get into an MSN convo wiht Ray today after taling with LV for some time, we disagreed some but had a reasonable discussion. I first asked why it is taking so long and the answer i get is because it does. I then ask how I or anyone else can help, get told I am not a customer and to STFU.
Glad they are listning and open for suggestions and help.
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SentryRaven
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 15:56:00 -
[82]
Originally by: DeathGrip So Ebank says it will listen to other idea's, I get into an MSN convo wiht Ray today after taling with LV for some time, we disagreed some but had a reasonable discussion. I first asked why it is taking so long and the answer i get is because it does. I then ask how I or anyone else can help, get told I am not a customer and to STFU.
Glad they are listning and open for suggestions and help.
Hehehe Proton. Made me laugh quite some. --------
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DeathGrip
Amarr Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 16:01:00 -
[83]
Originally by: SentryRaven
Originally by: DeathGrip So Ebank says it will listen to other idea's, I get into an MSN convo wiht Ray today after taling with LV for some time, we disagreed some but had a reasonable discussion. I first asked why it is taking so long and the answer i get is because it does. I then ask how I or anyone else can help, get told I am not a customer and to STFU.
Glad they are listning and open for suggestions and help.
Hehehe Proton. Made me laugh quite some.
I have the discussion saved if you like to see it. YOu have me on MSN just ask. At first I was attacking Ebank to LV, then LV made a good point its easy to point fingers so then I started asking why and how others could help. He said to ask Ray, I did so and well was told to STFU. So that leaves me to only pointing fingers.
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Skarii TuThess
Lansez Innovations
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Posted - 2009.10.11 16:04:00 -
[84]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
So you are saying that you would have rushed a buy-out offer before a full audit was done, meaning that people who wanted out right away would have lost an extra 5-10%, which has now been uncovered and accounted for?
Sorry LVV - I was with you up until this point. Nobody stated to the customer that they had (say) 3 options:
a) Withdraw now at x% b) Wait 3 months for a full audit at x% + unknown % recovered c) Stick with it.
The point that many people are trying to make is that they are not being told anything and they are not being given any choice. If people want to wothdraw early and risk losing any extra ISK found in an audit then it is there choice to do so surely?
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SentryRaven
KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 16:04:00 -
[85]
Originally by: DeathGrip
Originally by: SentryRaven
Hehehe Proton. Made me laugh quite some.
I have the discussion saved if you like to see it. YOu have me on MSN just ask. At first I was attacking Ebank to LV, then LV made a good point its easy to point fingers so then I started asking why and how others could help. He said to ask Ray, I did so and well was told to STFU. So that leaves me to only pointing fingers.
Oh, I wasn't laughing about that, good Sir. Just carry on, carry on.... --------
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.11 16:38:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Skarii TuThess
The point that many people are trying to make is that they are not being told anything and they are not being given any choice. If people want to wothdraw early and risk losing any extra ISK found in an audit then it is there choice to do so surely?
In my opinion, the success of the recovery comes down to how close to 100% we give back to the customers.
Of course, people might be able to make the ISK back faster themself. But we are cheating customers by giving them a buy-back offer that's not representative of the value of EBANK at present. And before a full overview is had over EBANK, we can't make a fair offer.
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DeathGrip
Amarr Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 16:46:00 -
[87]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Skarii TuThess
The point that many people are trying to make is that they are not being told anything and they are not being given any choice. If people want to wothdraw early and risk losing any extra ISK found in an audit then it is there choice to do so surely?
In my opinion, the success of the recovery comes down to how close to 100% we give back to the customers.
Of course, people might be able to make the ISK back faster themself. But we are cheating customers by giving them a buy-back offer that's not representative of the value of EBANK at present. And before a full overview is had over EBANK, we can't make a fair offer.
Is it you cant or your worried to many people will take ebank up on it and then you may have to liquidate further than you like hurting your chances to recover the lost isk of the people that want to stick it out?
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cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:02:00 -
[88]
A lot of arguments going on in this thread.
To me, it looks like the thoroughness of the audit is helping to weed out some of the bad stuff. The final results of the audit should help to show the "true current picture" of EBANK.
Can't really do anything until the board analyses the audit and submits their plan. Going to hold off until then.
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Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:09:00 -
[89]
I was watching the President's Cup today, and the commentator was critizing a player's choice of putting line. He then said something quite pertinent, he admitted he was up in the booth whilst the player was down on the green and things might be quite different for him.
So it may be easy to shout your opinion from the sideline, crying out about the idiots in charge, but realise things are quite different when you're in the position that requires the decisions to be made.
You could always man up and make the differences you're so vehemently crying for, we're recruiting.
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DeathGrip
Amarr Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.11 17:33:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Ray McCormack I was watching the President's Cup today, and the commentator was critizing a player's choice of putting line. He then said something quite pertinent, he admitted he was up in the booth whilst the player was down on the green and things might be quite different for him.
So it may be easy to shout your opinion from the sideline, crying out about the idiots in charge, but realise things are quite different when you're in the position that requires the decisions to be made.
You could always man up and make the differences you're so vehemently crying for, we're recruiting.
I asked a quesiton to see if I could help, and was told to STFU. So maybe you should go look at the convo again.
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