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Jagid
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Posted - 2009.10.14 19:18:00 -
[1]
Motivation: I've grown weary of all these scandals, failed stock exchanges and hyped up business ventures...
This has caused me to finally decide to devote time to the development of a legitimate /real-time/ EVE stock exchange. There is just one problem: I can't do it alone!
Why I'm Posting: I'm looking for those with strong programming skills who also have a background in statistics, mathematics, business and group collaboration.
My Background: I'm currently in my fifth year of studies in the US majoring in Computer Engineering and Math. I have a strong interest in the stock market and am an avid investor. I've spent the past three years reading books on investing, the various stock exchanges and similar topics.
I decided playing EVE just isn't enough, I need to be more involved and have a greater role in the overall community.
How to get Involved: Interested parties can simply reply to this post and we can talk from there.
This project is currently in its planning stage and I realize this post is vague, but is purposefully so. I want as much input from the EVE community as a whole in order to provide the best possible experience for everyone!
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Cista2
Jita Direct Sale
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Posted - 2009.10.14 19:27:00 -
[2]
Kudos to you.
I don't have any of these skills, but I will follow this as it develops. If you need a testing group or any other input call on me.
There is one other stock exchange on its way, the Eve Central Reserve project, but they are launching their bank first
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.10.14 19:29:00 -
[3]
How are you going to differentiate yourself from the 2-4 other stock-exchanges under development?
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Maestro Del'Tirith
Space Exploration Forward Motion Industries
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Posted - 2009.10.14 19:30:00 -
[4]
For some reason I thought I had heard that CCP was going to make one in-game??
Maybe I heard incorrectly, it happens. -------------
Looking for a mature group to play with? Recruitment Thread |
Jagid
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Posted - 2009.10.14 19:36:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Maestro Del'Tirith For some reason I thought I had heard that CCP was going to make one in-game??
Maybe I heard incorrectly, it happens.
I've heard this for quite some time now. I originally started with EVE about 4-5 years back and always heard whispers, nothing has really surfaced yet.
As far as differentiating this exchange, well its quite simple:
- Straightforward and honest - I've got nothing to gain by cheating
- Devotion to creating a better overall player experience
- Strong technical skills with investment know-how will create a realistic and functional exchange
- Open Communication - I want player input
As you can see I'm focusing on the ethics and player impact, not my ability to gain wealth like many business ventures on EVE do. Although I will admit if wealth comes along with this project I wouldn't be upset!
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Gehnster
Gallente Boundless Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.10.14 19:38:00 -
[6]
If none already exist he doesn't need to be different really, he just needs to be somewhat complete and be the first or the one with the most interest behind it. :)
The products that end up being used the most aren't always the best.
Jagid, you may want to post this in the tech forum.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.14 19:47:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Jagid
Originally by: Maestro Del'Tirith For some reason I thought I had heard that CCP was going to make one in-game??
Maybe I heard incorrectly, it happens.
I've heard this for quite some time now. I originally started with EVE about 4-5 years back and always heard whispers, nothing has really surfaced yet.
As far as differentiating this exchange, well its quite simple:
- Straightforward and honest - I've got nothing to gain by cheating
- Devotion to creating a better overall player experience
- Strong technical skills with investment know-how will create a realistic and functional exchange
- Open Communication - I want player input
As you can see I'm focusing on the ethics and player impact, not my ability to gain wealth like many business ventures on EVE do. Although I will admit if wealth comes along with this project I wouldn't be upset!
You ability to profit will be a function of how useful and how often used your stock exchange is. Transaction fees can be very lucrative, just look at any of the retail brokerages. Whoever controls the infrastructure - wins.
You'll need to strongly consider virtualizing shares (don't try to link to in-game shares) and provide a quick and easy way to buy and sell. Promoting liquidity is one of the hallmarks of success and growth in the MD, just look at Block's ventures or any of the Banks, scandals withstanding.
As you are an investor myself I would urge you to limit the scope of your design to simple equity and debt securities. Don't try and tackle derivatives or futures...it's a fool's errand at this point.
Of course, assuming you do get all this and it works and people use it and you get filthy rich...you'll need to make sure you aren't a one-man show. One-man show projects around here die quickly due to the well known "hit by a bus" phenomenon. Basically if you get hit by a bus, your project dies (or is hospitalized for several months) with you.
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Jagid
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Posted - 2009.10.14 20:09:00 -
[8]
Hexxx, you bring up some very good points. One of them, "The One Man Show," is exactly why I'm posting here for input and collaboration. I know that a project like this cannot and will not be successful without others on the team.
Debt and Equities are all that I currently plan on offering on the exchange. Stock and bonds will not be the only securities traded, as I plan on having ETFs, especially for commodities trading. This way I can still emulate the ability to trade commodities like you can on COMEX and NYMEX without having to deal with futures...
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.10.14 20:57:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Hexxx on 14/10/2009 20:58:07
Originally by: Jagid Hexxx, you bring up some very good points. One of them, "The One Man Show," is exactly why I'm posting here for input and collaboration. I know that a project like this cannot and will not be successful without others on the team.
Debt and Equities are all that I currently plan on offering on the exchange. Stock and bonds will not be the only securities traded, as I plan on having ETFs, especially for commodities trading. This way I can still emulate the ability to trade commodities like you can on COMEX and NYMEX without having to deal with futures...
You will need to detail exactly how you will be valuing those commodities. Commodities are a largely over looked asset class for investments despite some pretty well established cyclical patterns in pricing. The trouble has always been abstracting the value of those commodities into a fund (a la ETF, similar perhaps to a REIT ETF like my lovely Vanguard REIT (VNQ) +2.5% today!) for trading on an exchange.
It is tempting to want to bring more diversity to the financial instruments that MD currently employs but be mindful of the financial acumen of the common investor. Block is currently the most successful fund manager of commodities that MD has ever seen. I'm not sure how you could beat him in that game (or why you would want to divert your energy to that end).
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Jagid
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Posted - 2009.10.14 21:31:00 -
[10]
My thoughts on valuing commodities will depend heavily on the data provided by EVE-Central (I've yet to establish contact with this developer).
Since the exchange is going to be centered in Jita and known as the JSE (it just makes logical sense) I will rely mainly on the trading that takes place there. Just as in RL, commodities markets are localized and I plan on emulating this.
Some examples of funds could be: The Jita Minerals Fund The Jita Rare Minerals Fund The Low-Sec Ice Fund
Where the value of these funds reflect the average price of the minerals found for sale in Jita, Low-Sec, etc... These are examples of System and Regional Funds. Much of this data is already available, its just a matter of verifying it accurately reflects the prices seen on the market. I will rely heavily on individuals and the developer of EVE-Central to provide this data.
Since resources in EVE are theoretically limitless it really just depends upon supply (how much the miners are getting to the market) and the demand (how much production is taking place). Availability of resources cannot really be factored in as it can in RL (where oil reserves can be depleted...)
This is a topic I will be researching quite a bit more as the time to create these funds appraoches. I would appreciate any insight or input.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.14 22:23:00 -
[11]
I was talking of implementing this (and more) to Athre months ago.
Now, there's a couple of issues that made me freeze this and many other initiatives:
1) chronical lack of time 2) feasibility doubts 3) popularity doubts.
1) does not require further talk
2) is about technical issues:
- EvE does not export trades, just orders. - EvE does not export tick based information nor OHLC information - EvE does not support any kind of real time - EvE time granularity is high
Now, the exchange could be totally asbtracted off EvE leading to 3) issues.
But to stay on 2):
- Lack of compatible proper analysis tools. - Incredible lack of liquidity. Incredibly high estimate time to security swap. Unacceptable slippage because of 3) - Need to implement a cumbersome and easy to be flamed these days system requiring people to sign up and deposit "like a bank" (flames begin).
This is why I was following ECR, because they are going to implement some of the cumbersome - and boring - aspects I CBA to waste my time on.
3) All of the above - like every project - has to have a sound business plan.
That is, the project should have an use and a return.
Now, like it or hate it, the number of people even getting what a virtual stock exchange is in a MMORPG is minimal at best. This is also why the market related features tend to be left bugged and stagnant for years. Because CCP know the numbers at stake. This causes 2), that is a lack of people actually using such expensive to make tools cause slippage and gaps.
Basically, people know how to make these features, probably since years, but there's just not enough pervasive interest to make them fruit money or just to be useful. Basically, creating a bank and a whole stock exchange just to let 5 guys sell 4 shares every 10 days is just an huge waste of time and talent.
- Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Prodigal
Caldari New Genesis Project
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Posted - 2009.10.14 22:51:00 -
[12]
I will keep saying this until I cannot say it anymore......
Reporting standards must be set, until then none of these exchanges will ever work how they SHOULD.
The game mechanics set up for Corporations and their finances does not have a proper reporting function. Until this is developed and realized, Eve Finances will be stuck in the stone age.
Cheers,
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Jagid
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Posted - 2009.10.14 23:33:00 -
[13]
Vaerah you bring up some excellent points, that goes without saying. Here are a couple reasons while I'll continue to pursue this project, even in light of these... problems.
1) This is an excellent opportunity for me to become more involved and use the knowledge and skills I have in a realm that I have great interest.
2) I hope to encourage others to participate and in turn create a product that is used by many because so many showed interest in its development.
3) I'm writing a massive paper on the development and operations of stock exchanges and this ties in perfectly with it. (Which I'll post on the JSE blog when I'm finished. The new blog can be found here)
4) Much of what we see in the way of CCP content has been driven from what players develop/desire. My intent is that this can be one of the those projects that influences the CCP to develop content related to an exchange.
5) The project will continue to bend, fold, adapt and meld as different features of EVE come out.
That being said, if you have any insight, inputs, suggestions etc... please send them my way. I'm always open to optimistic and realistic (but not pessimistic) thoughts!
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Meryl Lazard
Ad Hoc LLC
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Posted - 2009.10.15 03:13:00 -
[14]
Jagid,
While it seems that an EVE stock exchange has been on and off the MD radar screen for some time, I like your enthusiasm.
I confess that I am still learning the ups and downs of EVE economics, but in real life I somehow managed to obtain a bunch of securities licenses. Go figure. I know just enough about web programming to FUBAR your entire project.
In summary, I probably can't be much help, unless it is to beta-test, provide feedback, or make coffee. Please add me to your mailing list.
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Jagid
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Posted - 2009.10.15 04:27:00 -
[15]
I found your post refreshing Meryl, I'm glad to see there are those out there who are honest and have an interesting sense of humor. I'll add you to the list and will most definitely be seeking your input.
Thanks for the reply!
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destinationunreachable
Hello Kitty Fanclub
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Posted - 2009.10.15 07:49:00 -
[16]
I had the same idea since some while, but I am still not convinced that it is possible to connect in-game items (like shares or commodities) with out-of-game, without using collaterals or CCPs help. If that is solved, I would be able to help out in around 6 weeks (not earlier due to RL reasons) with technical help. I do the technical background of real world financial exchanges for living (algo trading systems, etc.) ;-)
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Jagid
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Posted - 2009.10.15 15:26:00 -
[17]
Is it alright if I add you to the mailing list destinationunreachable? I wouldn't mind a least some advisory information on various topics if you had the time, whether it be now or in six week.
As far the feasibility of this project that is something will also need to be overcome. I feel that if we have enough bright minds we'll be able to come up with a viable solution. The more people who bring up issues will just lead to more solutions.
This is something that many people would like to see work successfully, so that's what we're going to try and and do!
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destinationunreachable
Hello Kitty Fanclub
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Posted - 2009.10.15 17:23:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jagid Is it alright if I add you to the mailing list destinationunreachable? I wouldn't mind a least some advisory information on various topics if you had the time, whether it be now or in six week.
Yes, please write me an in-game mail.
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Ryisaa
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Posted - 2009.10.15 18:40:00 -
[19]
I would love to be a part of this endevour. I could provide an assortment of services and would like to be part of the building blocks of a good company. Please contact me in game or on here. :)
Cheers Ryissa
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Maestro Del'Tirith
Space Exploration Forward Motion Industries
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Posted - 2009.10.15 20:18:00 -
[20]
What tech stack are you thinking to utilize?
LAMP/.Net/Java?
This would have a large impact on the desire of a developer to be involved in such a project, since it is inherently a hobby activity and we all have our 'first loves' and such in the development work. -------------
Looking for a mature group to play with? Recruitment Thread |
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Gehnster
Gallente Boundless Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.10.16 13:49:00 -
[21]
That information is posted on the tech forums post. I think its Java/PHP/MySQL and something else maybe?
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Ray McCormack
Kisoken Innovations
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Posted - 2009.10.16 13:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Gehnster That information is posted on the tech forums post. I think its Java/PHP/MySQL and something else maybe?
Better throw some Python in there for good measure... Maybe some Smalltalk just in case.
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Gehnster
Gallente Boundless Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.10.16 14:42:00 -
[23]
Stackless Python maybe? :)
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Jagid
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Posted - 2009.10.16 14:44:00 -
[24]
Created a blog here: http://jitastockexchange.blogspot.com/
There's info on what to do to join the google group as well. The response volume is higher than I anticipated so I figured we should move a lot of this info to a more permanent location.
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GG Spillane
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.22 13:04:00 -
[25]
Edited by: GG Spillane on 22/10/2009 13:04:58 FYI: The hot link is dead.
Jagid,
A hugely interesting project you have taken upon yourself to coordinate. A stock exchange for corporations would complement and expand the business framework of EVE beautifully.
The details and intrinsic technical aspects are naturally essential in implementing a well-functioning systems architecture that also takes into account potential transference to future administrators other than those creating it, in addition to developments and changes from CCP's side.
However, I think the broad strokes are essential at this point, which I mention because you are bringing commodities and other non-corporate shares entities into the mix. I think that's exciting, but my thoughts lean first and foremost towards a shares market for private corporations that in a sense mirror the in-game market.
So, take into account that I'm neither a broker nor an IT-wiz, my thoughts on this should be considered as those from the point of view of a user of such a stock exchange.
In simplifying things substantially, an EVE stock exchange should perhaps be designed around a stand-alone market system similar to the in-game marketplace (but without a direct real time data-link up to it or the game), where corporations are approved through a commission for being enlisted and the initial stocks and their value is set based on the total value of the company as determined by the commission on the basis of their total assets. Once issued, the securities would be traded freely as any commodity in-game is. Both annual and more frequent reports should naturally be issued to the commission and the public, subject to independent auditors. Beyond that the individual corps are on their own in terms of generating interest through their respective activities as to elicit interest in their company and their stocks.
There are more than enough challenges hiding underneath this very simplistic sketch even without in-game commodities and more complex financial securities services. However, once a stock exchange of the above sort is actually up and running, then one can consider bringing other elements into it.
Broad strokes indeed, and perhaps some points are self-evident, but I think it's important to have a crystal clear idea of what to do and what is technically and physically possible to achieve.
In any case, feel free to add me to your address book. I'd love to help out with this project.
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