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RRNL
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.10.27 11:46:00 -
[1]
The jump range need some love. With jdc 5 u can jump 4.5 ly max. I think covert cyno's will be more populair if the max range get a boost. Im thinking of max jumprange of 12 - 20 ly's. Maybe adding a special Black Op jump range skill to make this happen. Another level 14 skill that takes ages too learn to L5. Or just increasing base jumprange of 2 ly.
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Hemmo Paskiainen
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Posted - 2009.11.08 20:57:00 -
[2]
they could use a little boost |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.08 23:25:00 -
[3]
12-20 light years?!?! No way! That is way over powered. Now I would be more for a 25% boost in range max. It is a battleship, not a capital ship. Change your proposal to something more reasonable and I will give it a thumbs up.
Why are goons crying the most over the new sovereignty changes?
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Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.09 16:08:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Marlona Sky 12-20 light years?!?! No way! That is way over powered. Now I would be more for a 25% boost in range max. It is a battleship, not a capital ship. Change your proposal to something more reasonable and I will give it a thumbs up.
Yes u might be right, but they certainly need a boost according to the Qen Q3
"The least popular ship group that we can report on was the Black Ops battleship, with only 225 characters piloting them at the time of the snapshot."
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ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.10 02:11:00 -
[5]
Blackops need the most:
Hp buffed to at least the same as their t1 hulls. Some t2 racial resists. 40/20 would be excellent. Improved jump range (4 - 6.5ly base) Useful t2 bonuses Jump portal functioning with standard cyno gens (pos mod) Additional turret on panther.
Currently, the blackops can't even jump/bridge over most border systems, supposedly one of the main uses of BOs. At best, they can bridge about 3 jumps (in-region jumps), which is more or less useless. Never mind any sort of normal travel via jump drive is impossible, again due to horrid range.
Widow is the only ship that has functional t2 bonuses, agility bonuses? speed bonuses? wtf? The redeemer's bonus is at least not completely useless, but the rest.... ugh.
I'd propose something like:
Redeemer:
7.5% to large energy tracking, 10% to large energy optimal per level
Sin
7.5% to drone mwd speed per level, +10km drone control range per level
Panther
7.5% to large projectile tracking, 10% to large projectile falloff per level
Widow
30% bonus to ECM target jammer strength, 10% to cruise missile and torpedo flight time per level
The sin will always be sub-par as a black ops due to using drones: impossible to stay aloof because you can't align with sentries and/or have to wait for heavies to return. Panther could use another turret and/or being changed to be a shield tank ship. Thankfully, the AC fix panthers wont be too badly off
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.11.10 03:48:00 -
[6]
Quote: Maybe they need a new role in general (like the stealth bombers) or just some more tweaking, examle, the jump range need some love. With jdc 5 u can jump 4.5 ly max. I think covert cyno's will be more populair if the max range get a boost.
No they simply need to get unnerfed. They originally nerfed the stats because they thought they'd become the OMGSOLOPWNMOBILE.
1. Maximum Target Range nerfed vs t1 variant. Which is crazy. afaik no other t2 ship had this happen. 2. 25% @ lvl 5 Agility bonus on sin; yet 50% more mass. 3. Non-existent t2 resistances 10% for kin? meh? 4. 20% less armor/shields/strucutre then t1 5. Less powergrid yet more slots 6. less guns
That's for the sin moreso. Which is what I fly. Just for comparison. I happen to be in my oneiros atm as logistics 5 is almost done and i'm changing my fitting slightly. Anyway. Oneiros has...
1. 33% more maximum targeting range over t1 2. Oneiros is slightly less agile. but fairly acceptable. Plus oneiros generally matched up with command ships and battleships. So not an issue. 3. 48.75% more kin res vs 10% more for sin AND 32.5% more thermal res vs NO CHANGE for thermal on sin 4. 33% more armor/shields/structure then t1 5. has fitting bonus over t1 6. well gets 4 large rr vs 1 large rr or 4 large rr to 4 medium rr.
So how about we unnerf these? We dont need to talk about making them jump further or such.
Quote: Improved jump range (4 - 6.5ly base)
That really only may lead to other issues i wont mention.
Quote: Jump portal functioning with standard cyno gens (pos mod)
Black ops and titans can lock onto any sort of cyno. including beacons.
My suggestion would be the allowance for black ops to lock onto ANY alliance beacon. Regardless of alliance association. Which isnt that overpowered as you cant exactly move much to that enemy pos; that the pos cant alpha.
Quote: Currently, the blackops can't even jump/bridge over most border systems, supposedly one of the main uses of BOs. At best, they can bridge about 3 jumps (in-region jumps), which is more or less useless. Never mind any sort of normal travel via jump drive is impossible, again due to horrid range.
This is true. However by design sadly.
Quote: Sin 7.5% to drone mwd speed per level, +10km drone control range per level
This isnt that bad. Then again. I really like the agility. Cloaked velocity is fairly useless. On a ship so fat Anyway. Presumably. You jump into a camp. You ab/mwd-cloak and even with all that. You really arent going to get away from inties who run at you. The cloaked velocity would only work if it was like 1,000% per level. Then you're practically nano while cloaked. Which would be very fun but I cant see that happen.
THERE ARE MORE TITANS THEN BLACK OPS! ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.10 06:18:00 -
[7]
Oops, forgot support.
They can't bridge to cyno gens (ccp did a dirty hack and made the bridge a passive mod so you can't).
The agility is nice, but really useless frankly. (this coming from someone with a sin) Only thing i've used it lately is a glorified loot transport: warps faster than a cs with a built in cloak-warp trick and more ehp. lol.
Being able to jump farther is critical for them to be of any use. If they can't jump/portal (portal range tied to jump range) a decent distance, un-nerfed or not they would still be more or less useless in the role ccp would like to see.
Oh, as far as the covops cloak stuff goes: Meh. It would be nice, but balancing it would be somewhat hard. I'd rather see jumping and ship stats addressed first.
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Curse VonPilgrim
Silver Snake Enterprise Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.11.10 16:07:00 -
[8]
Totaly agree on the part bout boosting would be more fun
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Vall Kor
Minmatar Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
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Posted - 2009.11.10 23:16:00 -
[9]
Originally by: ZigZag Joe Blackops need the most:
Hp buffed to at least the same as their t1 hulls. Some t2 racial resists. 40/20 would be excellent. Improved jump range (4 - 6.5ly base) Useful t2 bonuses Jump portal functioning with standard cyno gens (pos mod) Additional turret on panther.
Currently, the blackops can't even jump/bridge over most border systems, supposedly one of the main uses of BOs. At best, they can bridge about 3 jumps (in-region jumps), which is more or less useless. Never mind any sort of normal travel via jump drive is impossible, again due to horrid range.
Widow is the only ship that has functional t2 bonuses, agility bonuses? speed bonuses? wtf? The redeemer's bonus is at least not completely useless, but the rest.... ugh.
I'd propose something like:
Redeemer:
7.5% to large energy tracking, 10% to large energy optimal per level
Sin
7.5% to drone mwd speed per level, +10km drone control range per level
Panther
7.5% to large projectile tracking, 10% to large projectile falloff per level
Widow
30% bonus to ECM target jammer strength, 10% to cruise missile and torpedo flight time per level
The sin will always be sub-par as a black ops due to using drones: impossible to stay aloof because you can't align with sentries and/or have to wait for heavies to return. Panther could use another turret and/or being changed to be a shield tank ship. Thankfully, the AC fix panthers wont be too badly off
I agree with this. I think they need real bonuses. I would like to see combat recons be allowed to use the bridge also. That would mix the clandestine fleet up a bit. "By way of deception, thou shalt do war"
My Blog
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Yon Krum
The Knights Templar R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2009.11.11 04:52:00 -
[10]
I would agree to boosting the black ops only if there were concurrent defenses implemented to provide both:
a) On-grid cloaking detection/aoe decloaking possibilities.
b) Sovereignty holder anti-afk cloaker possibilities.
Currently the black-ops is primarily a logistical tool for SB/recon gangs, and for that they are very effective. If there were tools to counter cloakers, offensively, not just using bait and hoping they make a mistake, then I'd be all-for increasing their jump/portal range far enough to make some of the very long inter-region leaps such as to the drone region from the north.
--Krum --Krum |
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Dave Meltdown
Capital Construction Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.14 11:45:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Dave Meltdown on 14/11/2009 11:45:25 yes they need some more love. Black Ops have great abiblities that comes with alot of skills that u need to train. The currenty form of black ops just dont make it worth training, buying them for 800m and use them.
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TimMc
Brutal Deliverance Extreme Prejudice.
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Posted - 2009.11.14 12:12:00 -
[12]
Originally by: ZigZag Joe Blackops need the most:
Hp buffed to at least the same as their t1 hulls. Some t2 racial resists. 40/20 would be excellent. Improved jump range (4 - 6.5ly base) Useful t2 bonuses Jump portal functioning with standard cyno gens (pos mod) Additional turret on panther.
hawt. Supporting this.
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Odetta Harpy
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Posted - 2009.11.14 13:39:00 -
[13]
Black ops do need alot of love before they will be used in any great numbers. I personaly think they should be based on more DPS as they are more like hit and run ships, sneaking up on someone then hitting them round the back of the head with a hammer comes to mind. But but at the moment they cant do hit and run because they can only fit a normal cloak instead of a covert ops,they are stuck waiting at gates instead. Also i wouldnt mind them being given a role bonus od 99% reduction in fitting needs of warfare links for a second role of FC ship for a covert fleet.
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Denga Vulture
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.14 16:46:00 -
[14]
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Vincent Gaines
Dirt Nap Squad
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Posted - 2009.11.14 20:09:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Vincent Gaines on 14/11/2009 20:12:02 I support any BO boost.
the pre-nerf needs to be removed, the range is meh but ok. It's a battleship, not a cap.
Leave it skill intensive, that will prevent mass proliferation.
They're not going to be solopwnmobiles, but WILL be useful. Any solo BO will remain a juicy target.
300-350mil is a good target cost. Do this then un-nerf it. At least the sin and panther. |
Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.11.14 21:30:00 -
[16]
i was honestly shocked when i looked at there combat capabilities... I do not fly one, but the fact that they have ess powergrid for fitting, less Hp, makes them made of paper, and less guns, means they cannot even stand up to regular dirt cheap Battleship in combat, and they cost about a bill. Give em proper stats please! ! Fix Destroyers |
Todd Cale
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Posted - 2009.11.16 22:41:00 -
[17]
bump!
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Dr T
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Posted - 2009.11.16 22:44:00 -
[18]
i want blackops boost...immideately!!!! i want it...and you ccp should do it...because(see what i want)...so..do that dodododo!!!!! you have a lot reasons to do that...and main one - is my wish!
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Promephius
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Posted - 2009.11.19 22:19:00 -
[19]
It definitely needs a boost to make the ship more worth while. At the moment its just a expensive battle ship with jump drive attached......
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TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2009.11.21 12:17:00 -
[20]
I support giving blackops a little love. They could handle a bit more jump range, a bit more EHP, a bit more DPS without becoming overpowered.
I don't think many people will frontline them (preferring to bridge a fleet into battle and remain safe in another system) but if they are a little bit better than their T1 hulls that might happen more often.
I have a BO pilot trained but I've not yet bought the ship...
Vote TeaDaze for CSM #4
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Mike Azariah
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Posted - 2009.11.21 15:20:00 -
[21]
I think ccp summed it up best and drew the wrong conclusion.
If there are so few Black Ops ships in the game, less than even the Titans then that is NOT the reason to let is sit in the corner alone like some ugly stepchild . . . that is the reason to go back and give it some loving to bring it back into the fold.
If they are so committed to making ships begin to have specialized roles then ask what role the BO's should have and address the question of whether the current design does make someone look to this ship for that role or not.
Yes, they need someone looking into this.
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Marcus Henik
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Posted - 2009.11.21 21:36:00 -
[22]
Supported, up the jump range so that it can fill its intended role. cov ops cloak would be nice, and for god's sake please bump their base stats up so that they can be a match for their t1 counterparts. either that or mke a drastic reduction in the overall price of the ship, I think the main thing that is killing black ops is the billion isk price tag for a ship that has a nifty trick for its size. compaired to what else I can get my hands on for that amount of isk (carrier, marauder, some of the cheaper dreads,) and the capabilitys that these ships offer compaired to their simarly priced counterpart its just not worth the investment.
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Ryan Powers
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.22 06:26:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Ryan Powers on 22/11/2009 06:26:14 /signed.
I'm Caldari and even I don't want to fly a Widow. :[ Free Abathur! |
Lusulpher
Blackwater Syndicate Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.23 05:38:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Lusulpher on 23/11/2009 05:41:09
Originally by: Yon Krum I would agree to boosting the black ops only if there were concurrent defenses implemented to provide both:
a) On-grid cloaking detection/aoe decloaking possibilities.
b) Sovereignty holder anti-afk cloaker possibilities.
Currently the black-ops is primarily a logistical tool for SB/recon gangs, and for that they are very effective. If there were tools to counter cloakers, offensively, not just using bait and hoping they make a mistake, then I'd be all-for increasing their jump/portal range far enough to make some of the very long inter-region leaps such as to the drone region from the north.
--Krum
They are not more popular than Titans, so no BO defenses are even needed yet, you have to worry about the Titans first...priorities.
Anti-cloaking abilities need to go to those nimble[useless] dessies.
Seriously, having a jump portal ship that can't jump to NEXT DOOR is hilariously fail.
And the fuel consumption, Jesus, we are green tech in the future. High mileage, weak dps/ decent tank(to call in help and bait even). The first iteration was low mileage/weak dps/weak tank. HIGH price, so that you can stare at people?
Who thought that up?
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Deadly Hobbitses
State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.11.24 00:52:00 -
[25]
My wish list for Black Ops, given they truely suck as is...
- Increase Fuel bay to 4km3 - What is the point of being able to fit a jump portal mod if your gang exhausts the fuel the first time you jump. These ships should be able to work in 0.0 without having to be refueled every time the gang needs to move somewhere. As-is, you either need a gang member to bring along a transport ship or you fit cargo expanders, either is a poor choice.
- Tanking - None of them can do this effectively unless it is all they do, and even then it is sub-par compared to their T1 or even faction equivalents. Tanking a Redeemer is an effort in futility. Tanking Sin & Panther require the use of Crystal implants and deadspace modules to get anywhere near being effective. The Widow, while able to tank, sacrifices all of its EW role in doing so.
- Fitting - This is another barrier to those who might have been wanting to fly a black ops. Using the Redeemer as an example, you need to waste your rig slots on reducing the CPU usage of your guns if you wish to fit T2 weapons and anything resembling a tank at the same time. Even then you must use faction mods if you want to have any form of tackle.
- Covert Cynosural Field Generation - DO NOT reduce the skill requirements for using these mods. Not everything in this game should be available to the random pubbie at a weeks notice. What does need to be changed though is the inability of transport ships and strategic cruisers with the covert subsystem to fit them. If a ship can go through the portal, it should be able to light a cyno for it as well. Should this be changed, some of the transport ships would need to be given an additional high slot so they can still fit their cloaks while filling this role.
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MonwrathDisortium
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2009.11.24 04:28:00 -
[26]
If nothing else BO need a longer jump range, at least on par with a dread.
I would like to see it warp cloaked as well but the jump range is the main complaint I have about my sin.
__________________________________________________
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Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.28 11:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: MonwrathDisortium
I would like to see it warp cloaked as well but the jump range is the main complaint I have about my sin.
Im flying the sin aswell and im still wondering what is its role. It isnt tanking, it isnt dps, it isnt logistic, so wtf is it?
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.11.28 15:04:00 -
[28]
I love my +5% speed per BO skill level. Rank10 lol. (no, i don't, give something more useful please) Jump range could use a very small boost. Just a tiny bit more. Supporting this.
Originally by: Sandslinger of CA
So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
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AndzX11
Caldari Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.29 19:38:00 -
[29]
Known facts about black ops are:
They jump in, blow something up, jump out. Hit and run. I don't see where the tank is actually needed. DPS wise all of them can get 700-800.
So let's say a black ops fleet of 5 jumps in to gank a Rorqual or a ratting BS from a constellation that's near another and has blocked, defended gates in between... Do you need a tank to kill a rorq or any t1/t2 bs with 5 x 700 DPS black ops ships? Most will go down even with just 2 Black Ops BS shooting them very quickly.
For any operations where resistance is expected you will simply have to be more tactical about it. The more numbers game doesn't work with B-Ops. Is that bad or good? I think it's great.
The jump range could be 2.5 or 3 light years - but that's just a maybe.
The only real change I'd suggest is remove the Sin's drone damage bonus and it's drone bay. Just because Dominix was drone dependent doesn't mean that Sin has to be.
Now we have these bonuses on Sin: 4 Turrets
5% velocity/125% cloaked velocity modifier 5% to large hybrid turret damage & 10% per level to drone damage/hp
Afterwards: 5 turrets
5% velocity/125% cloaked velocity modifier 5% to hybrid turret damage & 5% to rate of fire
125m3 drone bay with 75 or 100Mbit/s(like T2 mega).
All in all if Sin would receive such a change it would be without the drone damage disability that slows donw hit and run operations and be like the other B-Ops ships.
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ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.30 10:31:00 -
[30]
Originally by: AndzX11 Known facts about black ops are:
They jump in, blow something up, jump out. Hit and run. I don't see where the tank is actually needed. DPS wise all of them can get 700-800.
So let's say a black ops fleet of 5 jumps in to gank a Rorqual or a ratting BS from a constellation that's near another and has blocked, defended gates in between... Do you need a tank to kill a rorq or any t1/t2 bs with 5 x 700 DPS black ops ships? Most will go down even with just 2 Black Ops BS shooting them very quickly.
For any operations where resistance is expected you will simply have to be more tactical about it. The more numbers game doesn't work with B-Ops. Is that bad or good? I think it's great.
The jump range could be 2.5 or 3 light years - but that's just a maybe.
The only real change I'd suggest is remove the Sin's drone damage bonus and it's drone bay. Just because Dominix was drone dependent doesn't mean that Sin has to be.
Now we have these bonuses on Sin: 4 Turrets
5% velocity/125% cloaked velocity modifier 5% to large hybrid turret damage & 10% per level to drone damage/hp
Afterwards: 5 turrets
5% velocity/125% cloaked velocity modifier 5% to hybrid turret damage & 5% to rate of fire
125m3 drone bay with 75 or 100Mbit/s(like T2 mega).
All in all if Sin would receive such a change it would be without the drone damage disability that slows donw hit and run operations and be like the other B-Ops ships.
Yes, black ops don't really need to tank but they should atleast have some t2 resists + the same hp as their t1 counterparts.
The main thing that kills them is ****ty bonuses, and horrible jump range. Sin is additionally disadvantaged due to drones and even as a gunship it would be rather subpar with rails being rather low dps but blasters can't reach 20km either. Rest of them can easily get about 25km range with their short range weapons.
Also, panther needs another turret and being changed to a shield tank (lows -> mids)
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