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Jadawin Khanidi
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.11.04 18:25:00 -
[1]
So I was can-flipped today by a Drake and decided to try punish the thief. I knew I would probably lose, this being my first PvP fight (or rather the first where I was not only shot, but did also shoot), but hey, it was worth trying
So I brought my Harbinger in... BC vs BC. At first I thought it didnt look so bad, but then I went down pretty fast. Only after the fight it occurred to me that I was at a severe disadvantage fronm the beginning: As Amarr, I am pretty much forced to use Lasers, which do EM and some Thermal. Exactly what's worst against a shield tanker. The Drake however uses missiles, and the pilot can even switch the damage type in the middle of the battle if he sees that I'm hardened against what he chose first. That seems a HUGE advantage.
So, how is it even possible to fight a Drake (or any shield-tanked missile boat) in an Amarr ship? Surely two ships of the same class should be comparable in power...?
(Btw, the guy had also much better (=more skill-intensive) weaponry than me... but nevermind.)
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The Subscriber
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Posted - 2009.11.04 18:34:00 -
[2]
there is nothing you can do if the other guy has more skill points |
Phosphorus Palladium
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Posted - 2009.11.04 18:37:00 -
[3]
Drakes are tough to crack. Commonly fit with a huge passive shield tank.
If I had to kill one in an amarr ship I would prepeare for a long slow killing of the drake. That means try to make sure the drake can not hit you with means of ECM or speed, and make sure the drake can not warp off or dock.
Then very slowly kill it. Passive shield tanks are buffer tanks and take a while. Read a book if you get bored. Eventually the drake will either pop or the pilot will log off.
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Sir Fourhead
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.11.04 18:37:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Jadawin Khanidi So I was can-flipped today by a Drake and decided to try punish the thief. I knew I would probably lose, this being my first PvP fight (or rather the first where I was not only shot, but did also shoot), but hey, it was worth trying
Good for you!
Quote: So I brought my Harbinger in... BC vs BC. At first I thought it didnt look so bad, but then I went down pretty fast. Only after the fight it occurred to me that I was at a severe disadvantage fronm the beginning: As Amarr, I am pretty much forced to use Lasers, which do EM and some Thermal. Exactly what's worst against a shield tanker. The Drake however uses missiles, and the pilot can even switch the damage type in the middle of the battle if he sees that I'm hardened against what he chose first. That seems a HUGE advantage.
Actually, EM and Thermal are the strongest damage types against base shield resists (0% and 20% resists, respectively). Switching missiles takes time, unlike switching lazer crystals. Also, he probably used kinetic missiles the whole time without caring about resists, since the drake gets a significant bonus to medium kinetic missile damage.
Quote: So, how is it even possible to fight a Drake (or any shield-tanked missile boat) in an Amarr ship? Surely two ships of the same class should be comparable in power...?
There was probably a combination of factors in this fight that resulted in your defeat: -Skills (both in terms of SP and player skill) -The drake is, against other battlecruisers, generally the best for its ability to fit a nasty buffer tank and go with three damage mods in the lows at the same time -In addition, I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that your harbinger fitting was less than optimal (not just in terms of the meta level of the modules you used, but the actual modules themselves) Nothing against you, but since you said this was your first PVP engagement.
Anyways, practice PVP in frigates before you lose any more harbys. The Punisher is a good place to start as an Amarr pilot.
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Cromzor
Caldari Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.11.04 18:37:00 -
[5]
I think your problem is that you think X and Y should be equal. Just forget about balancing specific ships to eachother. Realize that each race has advantages and disadvantages in different areas when compared to eachother as a collection of ships. You had the ultimate advantage in that you had the ability to choose what ship you would counter a drake with, and chose wrong. I would have picked an Abbadon or Armegeddon probably, but I'm no pvp expert either
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Tormod Berg
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Posted - 2009.11.04 18:38:00 -
[6]
You are wrong about EM beeing the worst damagetype vs. shieldtanking. Its the best. Some put on EM hardners, some put on invul. fields, you never know until you see the killmail.
As for counters I'd say another drake
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Kharamete
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Posted - 2009.11.04 18:39:00 -
[7]
Originally by: The Subscriber there is nothing you can do if the other guy has more skill points
Not true.
Originally by: Jadawin Khanidi So, how is it even possible to fight a Drake (or any shield-tanked missile boat) in an Amarr ship? Surely two ships of the same class should be comparable in power...?
Yes it is possible. Unless the drake was fit with a passive tank you could use the amarrian speciality of energy neutralizing, and destroy the drake's capacitor. Doing so would make the shield tank fail, and the drake would despite having more powerful weapons be as weak as a kitten.
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Jadawin Khanidi
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.11.04 18:45:00 -
[8]
Lol yes, I mixed that up with EM being bad against shields
Thanxs for the advice! Will try to use it next time. I couldnt use another ship because the Harbinger was the only one I had in the area... of course it was a rather rash decision.
Almost needless to say, the thief had a couple of friends who came to the scene after I attacked. They didnt intervene (according to the kill mail), but I'm quite sure they would have if the fight had gone bad for their mate. Damn pirate cowards Oh well.
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Phosphorus Palladium
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Posted - 2009.11.04 18:45:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kharamete Unless the drake was fit with a passive tank you could use the amarrian speciality of energy neutralizing...
Only problem here is that drakes typically do wear a passive shield tank. ECM. What cant hit you, cant hurt you.
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Kharamete
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Posted - 2009.11.04 18:48:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Kharamete on 04/11/2009 18:48:43
Originally by: Phosphorus Palladium
Only problem here is that drakes typically do wear a passive shield tank. ECM. What cant hit you, cant hurt you.
My experience is contrary. People put invuln fields and stuff on drakes and call that passive. So, you just kill the invuln fields by destroying the cap.
*shrug*
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Kharamete
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Posted - 2009.11.04 18:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jadawin Khanidi
Almost needless to say, the thief had a couple of friends who came to the scene after I attacked. They didnt intervene (according to the kill mail), but I'm quite sure they would have if the fight had gone bad for their mate. Damn pirate cowards Oh well.
So, get your own friends with guns for those kinds of situations. If you're not in a player corp, get into one. NPC corps aren't - often - very strong on any kind of cooperative spirit. :)
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2009.11.04 19:02:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kharamete Edited by: Kharamete on 04/11/2009 18:48:43
Originally by: Phosphorus Palladium
Only problem here is that drakes typically do wear a passive shield tank. ECM. What cant hit you, cant hurt you.
My experience is contrary. People put invuln fields and stuff on drakes and call that passive. So, you just kill the invuln fields by destroying the cap.
*shrug*
The thing is, invuln fields will not cost a lot of cap. Additionally, chances are, if the drake is pvp fit, he'll not be packing Shield Power Relays (1 Power Diagnostic System + 3 BCUs, most likely). So it would be very hard to cap him out with one medium neut on a Harbi.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.11.04 19:24:00 -
[13]
drake is top dog in the bc class.
although I hear slaved harbingers with max skills and 5% implants are somewhat decent at killing them.
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Volir
Dot.
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Posted - 2009.11.04 19:31:00 -
[14]
There are many ways to counter a drake. Simple removal will get most of them, but don't forget to sideboard some creatures with reach like a giant spider.
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Mifter Hogdido
Amarr Shadow Legion.
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Posted - 2009.11.04 19:32:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Mifter Hogdido on 04/11/2009 19:33:00 Gank-a-Geddon kills a drake pretty fast.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.04 19:37:00 -
[16]
It's also worth noticing, on the topic of the fabled shield tanking EM hole, that this hole is very dangerous to aim for.
If the Drake has done something as nasty as fit a T2 EM Hardener, EM is no longer his weakest resist — it's the highest. Even if you start to pile on invuln fields, which will receive more stacking penalties towards EM due to that first module, EM will move from first to second strongest resist (right after exposive).
It will still be weak to thermal damage, so the lasers do fairly well in that regard, but you're actually best of using good old-fashioned hybrid weapons since these will bit both its weakest resists: thermal and kinetic. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Benedict Carol
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Posted - 2009.11.04 19:44:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jadawin Khanidi So I was can-flipped today by a Drake and decided to try punish the thief. I knew I would probably lose, this being my first PvP fight (or rather the first where I was not only shot, but did also shoot), but hey, it was worth trying
Well.... you're ahead of roughly 99.999% of the miners in C&P , so good for you. Skillpoints don't make the pilot (of course they help :) ), skill makes the pilot.
My suggestion (if you're not alone) would be to get buddies fitted in ewar/tackle frigs that can shoot down his drones, and after that just bring a metric assload of DPS to bear.
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Jodie Amille
Rifters
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Posted - 2009.11.04 20:18:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Jodie Amille on 04/11/2009 20:20:20 First of all, people replying to this thread need to remember basic aggro mechanics
If someone steals from your can or wreck, only you and your corpmates may shoot him. If you are in an npc corporation then only you may shoot him. If you are in a gang, your gangmates can NOT shoot him.
If you DO fire back on him, only he may aggress you. His gang and/or corp are not allowed to fire upon you.
Now as to which ship you can use that can kill him, even max skilled harbingers will have a hard time if he's properly fit. My obvious choice would be an abaddon with an AB(yes an ab so you can keep the drake within scram/web range even if he scrambles you, which would shut off your MWD), scramble and dual webs. Without an injector you'll have to monitor your cap and micromanage your AB a bit.
So your fit should look something like:
8x megapulse 100mn AB, warp scrambler II, stasis web II x2 1600mm rolled tungsten plate x2, energized adaptive nano membrane x2, damage control II, heatsink II x2
2x ogre, 2x hammerhead, 1x hobgoblin in your dronebay
3x trimark armor pump I if you want to go all out.
Edit: Of course, it's not likely a drake would stick around long when he sees an abaddon coming out of warp, but there you go --------
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The Wintersmith
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Posted - 2009.11.04 20:27:00 -
[19]
By quitting the game.
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Isede Nori
Amarr Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.11.04 20:47:00 -
[20]
Here is how we killed an ebil Drake: my boyfriend was in a Wolf, I was in a remote repair gank Raven. Drake armed specifically to take Wolf out and engaged. I warped in an started repairing the Wolf thus going red to the Drake. Drake decided for whatever reason to fire on me as well. Needless to say he went down much faster than he would have if he only stuck to the Wolf. He might have lived if he didn't attack me cuz my boyfriend never brings enough ammo, he would have just run out before we could kill him
Having friends with remote repairers definitely helps. He won't be able to take you down and if he engages the remote reppers then they can fire on him back adding to your firepower.
Another option I read is a Curse (amarr recon ship) but I have yet to test this personally to see if it works. Curse has neutralizer range of about 30km and is more mobile than Drake, so even if you fail at least you can get out and not die. Most Drakes will only bring a scrambler as their tackling equipment so as long as you keep at 12+km away from him you will be free to disengage. You keep at around 20km and neutralize his cap, hopefully lasting long enough against his missile spam to drain him completely. Once you kill cap the invuls and hardeners will drop. Invuls require 30 en, hardeners 20 en per 10 second cycle. If you have 2x medium neutralizer on and space them out in cycles you will be drawing cap every 5-6 seconds and cap recharge rate is lowest when it is at 0% (as in when you are completely drained out). Most Drakes will put core rigs in lows, not resistances ones, meaning his resistances at this point will drop to about 0-10% EM and 20-30% Thermal depending on his compensation skills. Meanwhile you can work on his tank with some Hammerhead II drones and some EM missiles of your own.
Like I said this is all in theory, I haven't tested to see how this works in practice yet :)
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Kunming
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2009.11.04 20:53:00 -
[21]
Heh, actually lasers are best against shield tankers. If he resist your lasers it means he has hardeners and invul fields, which means he is very vulnerable to cap warfare, something Amarr are rather good at. Also in a harbinger against a drake you have a very good chance of escaping, but I think you might have honored the fight for him honoring the 1vs1.
Jadawin, you choose the wrong fight with the wrong ship bro, against a drake either you know 100% you will blast off his tank with your ultra high DPS, or you play smart (dirty) fit some cap warfare, ECM drones, ECM burst, etc..
BTW If you think caldari are hard to hurt with lasers, you havent met a minmatar T2 boat with 75% shield and 90% armor EM BASE resistance
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LeBelInconnu
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.11.04 21:01:00 -
[22]
Edited by: LeBelInconnu on 04/11/2009 21:05:20
Originally by: The Subscriber there is nothing you can do if the other guy has more skill points
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thats a damn lie.
I would say bring ecm drones next time. 5 of the suckas :) DB Preacher - "We command your game now. As long as you remain in GoonSwarm, we make you play our way..." wtf is wrong with you? |
Marguerite Antiki
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Posted - 2009.11.04 21:27:00 -
[23]
Good read, my 2 cents ....
I have seen a Blaster Brutix tear a new rear end / hole in Drakes from time to time. Catch is getting close enough so a web is required.
Turns out to be a Brutix, web / scram / insanely short range blasters for DPS and drones of X type and off you go cracking drakes.
Thats if you can fly Gall ships though...
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Shade Millith
Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.11.04 21:41:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Shade Millith on 04/11/2009 21:44:55 Really, your biggest problem is that the Drake is currently the best BC for a slugfest 1v1 with another BC, and still does so for things smaller too.
Against your standard Harb, with an armor tank, the drake will have more EHP, simular DPS, more speed, more agility.
A general consensis, is that for 2 simularly skilled pilots, a Harb is the only thing close to a Drake in a simple slugfest, and even then needs some expensive implants.
As much as I hate saying it (I despise ECM), I'd suggest that you get him aggroed to your corp and get a blackbird or falcon to jam him.
Edit : ECM Drones can also ruin his day --------------------------------------------
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.04 21:44:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jadawin Khanidi I am pretty much forced to use Lasers, which do EM and some Thermal. Exactly what's worst against a shield tanker.
What? ----------- ADM-I |
Sloth Arnini
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
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Posted - 2009.11.04 21:52:00 -
[26]
Vespa EC-600 drones would seem to be a PVP newbie's best friend. One facet of the Harbinger which can be overlooked is that it actually has the joint second largest drone bay of all battlecruisers. 50m3 may not sound much but it's enough for 5 of the above mentioned Vespa EC-600s. And any experienced PVPers knows those buggers score jams disconcertingly often.
Of course, in your position, I might have done the same as you, fitted out the punchiest ship I could and tried to beat him down with brute force :) Having four years of skillpoints might have given me a higher chance of success, but in alliance 1vs1s against Drakes, my own BCs had only an even chance of victory.
The important thing is that you don't seem to have given up after the defeat. That's a crucial element of a good EVE player's mindset. Many people just whine about can flipping.
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Slave 775
Ministry of Punishment Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.04 21:59:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Slave 775 on 04/11/2009 22:01:02
Originally by: Kharamete Edited by: Kharamete on 04/11/2009 18:48:43
Originally by: Phosphorus Palladium
Only problem here is that drakes typically do wear a passive shield tank. ECM. What cant hit you, cant hurt you.
My experience is contrary. People put invuln fields and stuff on drakes and call that passive. So, you just kill the invuln fields by destroying the cap.
*shrug*
My experience is the same as yours. Oh and slaved harbringers are pretty good at killing them.
Centuries ago, the Bible warned of dangers posed by evil men described as master[s] at evil ideas and scheming to do bad. (Proverbs 24:8) PRIVATEERS Officialy nerfed by CCP 05/07 |
Caldari Citizen4714
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Posted - 2009.11.04 22:00:00 -
[28]
Originally by: The Subscriber there is nothing you can do if the other guy has more skill points
Bring more friends. - Support DISBANDING the Alliance CCP Renamed at the Alliance's Request |
Dirk Mortice
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Posted - 2009.11.04 23:42:00 -
[29]
bring a friend, although to be safe I would personally suggest bringing about 20 friends, with at least 2 falcons, a damp fit arazu to make sure he cant target you even when he isn't jammed, and a curse to neut any invul fields he's using.
Don't forget to kill his drones first, they're his only hope of survival.
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Kharamete
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Posted - 2009.11.04 23:58:00 -
[30]
OTOH a properly fit drake is an amarrian's worst nightmare. A drake with decent missile systems, a proper passive tank without any active modules, can regenerate 500+ hitpoints per second without the need for any cap at all.
If you want to kill or scare away curses/pilgrims the drake is an excellent choice. It has enough regenerative power to throw off a zealot or t2 pulse harb for long enough to kill it. You won't be moving around in it, but you don't need to in any case.
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