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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 17:01:00 -
[1]
Cosmic Anomolies need an enourmous overhaul. They need to be switched to regular belt rats with normal bounties and normal loot/salvage to be worth anything. Tell me why I won't just roll an alt and run Level 4s in empire?
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 17:15:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Qlanth Cosmic Anomolies need an enourmous overhaul. They need to be switched to regular belt rats with normal bounties and normal loot/salvage to be worth anything. Tell me why I won't just roll an alt and run Level 4s in empire?
here I will answer my own question:
because Delve has Level 4 agents!
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 21:53:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Franga Goons/MM whine is this thread is hilarious.
You forgot all the Atlas, XXdeath, CVA, and generally every sov holding alliance of note also saying that the changes are poorly conceived.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 22:58:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Spawinte
Originally by: Pattern Clarc
Originally by: pi squad Edited by: pi squad on 07/11/2009 21:54:06 you're literally a dip**** if you thought the csm would actually accomplish anything and this thread is incontrovertible proof
Looks like your right.
We made it explicitly clear that unless the risk vs reward balance was fixed, they wouldn't solve anything.
Seems like they have just flat out ignored this advice and not made it the priority it should have been.
Am I in the minority in thinking that CCP knows best and not a bunch of forum whiners who got a free trip to Iceland? I include myself among the whiners btw.
Also BAAWWWWWW and AHAHAHAHAHA
Hahahahahahahahaha yes you are
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 23:14:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Qlanth on 07/11/2009 23:15:02
Originally by: Treji If Goonies are whining, new expansion must be good
Or are they a little miffed due to new changes hampering their system of play?
If there is a single sov holding alliance that doesn't need to worry about this patch it is goonswarm. We have billions of ISK in reserve and had been preparing for the likely R64 nerf for months before it was announced.
It should be pretty obvious that these changes will do nothing but force people OUT of 0.0 to search for a better way to make money.
That way will probably be running Level 4 missions in empire while holding some key lowsec moons of value.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 23:39:00 -
[6]
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 23:45:00 -
[7]
You guys should check out Perpetuum, being developed by an ex-BoB guy looks pretty sweet.
http://www.perpetuum-online.com/
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 23:53:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Vivian Azure
Originally by: Zahorite
Originally by: Vivian Azure Edited by: Vivian Azure on 07/11/2009 23:43:19
Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang
So why are you supporting changes that force us to do more of it? Are you just that dumb?
EvE was once a game, where you had to invest lot's of time and efforts into the game. Today it's just a shadow of itself, getting dumbed down into the direction of ADHD-kiddies that can't be bothered to do something for longer then 2 minutes.
So yes. If it was up to me, I'd make this game hardcore again, where you need to spend 1/3 of your time playing to have enough money for the ships to fly around in the other 2/3 of your time.
Making ISK is way too easy these days, as is holding space.
If that was the case we would all be happy. That isn't how things work now, and this update is going to make it even worse. Right now it's about 2/3 making money for 1/3 doing pvp, after this update it will be worse.
Learn to make ISK.
I spend some 1/10 of my time making enough ISK in EvE to fly around in Tech 2 cruisers the whole day and loose some 5 HACs a week.
Making 1 billion ISK a week is a piece of cake and can be done 90% AFK.
You must be ****ing awful at PvP
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 00:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Vivian Azure
Originally by: Cefte
Originally by: Vivian Azure
Learn to make ISK.
I spend some 1/10 of my time making enough ISK in EvE to fly around in Tech 2 cruisers the whole day and loose some 5 HACs a week.
Making 1 billion ISK a week is a piece of cake and can be done 90% AFK.
So are you the long-suffering logistics ***** of your alliance who hates them and everyone else who lives in 0.0 because you spend all your time doing the logistics that lets them enjoy themselves, or are you the anonymous alt who still refuses to post on the main whose purported existence is the only crutch for your crippled arguments, or are you the 0.0 playboy who spends one tenth of his online time making billions a month and losing 5 HACs a week in PvP?
Because either you're a really bad PvPer, or you're doing a whole lot of hours of PvP a week.
Or you're not only an anonymous alt, but a fantasist who can't keep his story straight.
I'm all of this at the same time.
I do alot of industrial stuff for my corp/alliance before primetime and then take part in nearly every fleet that forms up. While doing the above, I've got a mission-running-alt running LvL 4's (allmost 100% AFK with an Ishtar in Gallente-Space against Serpentis) on my second rig or I play the market.
Do I play alot? Yes, some 6 hours a day.
I'm sorry to say it but your situation is abnormal and most people have a job and a family and cannot play a video game 6 hours a day. Most are lucky to get in 1 or 2 hours a day.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 00:48:00 -
[10]
If anyone knows about holding 0.0 space its Triumvirate.
Oh wait!
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 01:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Dante Edmundo ...The RISK in null-sec for outweighs the GAIN with the current proposal. So why bother? At least CCP has degraded the risk so far - but now what about the GAINS?
Hey man, didn't you hear, you got moons!
Oh yeah awesome why don't I just go ahead and tower th.. oh right taking a moon of any value requires a fleet of Dreads or battleships to clear it from its current owner and all the profits from those moons go to fueling the hundreds of systems that do not have an R64. Also they are being nerfed in three weeks.
Well at least now my alliance can spend some of that ISK to gain TWO(!) guaranteed Cosmic Anomalies!
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 01:33:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Future Mutant Do i know what npc means? It means your a moron you hypocrite.
Originally by: cok cola YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
THIS NEEDS ANSWERING CCP, WERE ALL ASKING, WERE ALL WAITING FOR A RESPONSE.
Also- everyone thats asked this question is a moron- every activity that makes isk can be done in nullsec for more isk per hour compared to highsec.
You are completely wrong.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 05:52:00 -
[13]
CCP could easily stop my complaining by making Cosmic Anomalies have belt rats in them instead of the nerfed rats that drop no loot or salvage they have now.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 17:38:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Gramtar I proposed a good, well reasoned proposal to fix the imbalance between high sec mission running and 0.0/lowsec ratting back in August. I know it was brought up and voted on in the CSM, but I don't know what CCP's response to it was. You can read the whole proposal here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1137380
Most of my suggestions can be summed up by the following: 1) Improve the quality of spawns (max BS bounty) in all systems 2) Eliminate cruiser spawns from 0.0 (all spawns have at least one BS) 3) Add POS module and permanent outpost upgrade which improve truesec of the system they operate in
Of course, you could just double belt/gate rat bounties and be done with it if you want a simpler solution. I don't prefer that, because I feel very strongly players should be able to improve their space, and it tends to favor macro ratters more than regular players. Still, something obviously needs to be done, and something is better than nothing.
I think the fact there was no ratting upgrade suggested in the dev blog is very telling. Someone or some group of someones in CCP plain doesn't like ratting. When you look at the suggested mining upgrades, the rationale becomes more clear. They don't like static asteroid belts.
Around the time CCP removed npc's from the directional scanner (nerfing ratting - since you now have to warp to every belt to see what is up in a system), I recall reading comments from more than one dev that their goal was to pretty much eliminate static asteroid belts. Everything would be anomolies or dynamic plexes all the time.
Whether I'm right about this or not is immaterial. Maybe CCP loves ratting and mining as much as every other PvE activity. The problem is they don't recognize that ratting, in particular for 0.0, is a favored activity of actual players. The best thing about ratting is you can log in, warp to a belt, and start going to town. You don't need a probe launcher and astrometric skills, you don't need to spend an hour bouncing between half a dozen systems hoping you get lucky. You can just shoot stuff for a little bit and get some isk.
Here's something else CCP may not realize. Isk making generally isn't a social activity in EVE. At least, it isn't in 0.0. If the only way a player in 0.0 can make as much or more than a high sec mission runner is to get in a gang and cooperate in order to locate and take down some randomly spawned complex, then 0.0 is still crap.
On a final note, several of the upgrades suggested are hilarious in that they promise "significantly increase the chance...". The problem with them is you can't parse/prove the improvement. If they worked in some systems and not others, how would anyone know? Hey, the GM responds to your petition, you just must be unlucky. Upgrades/improvements that can't be parsed are terrible. People have known this since Everquest days, when certain character abilities plain didn't work.
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
I am quoting this because I want to make sure than someone in CCP reads it. Gramtar has had the best ideas for improving the reward to match the risk in 0.0 for as long as I can remember and if anyone truly has a grasp on what should be done I would say it was him.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 18:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: SavageBastard
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Not sure why anyone would be surprised about the fact that there is massive opposition to these changes from 0.0 alliances who have currently covered the map with a static system of fortifications that cheaply cyno-jam and deny any realistic danger to their holdings while letting them sit back and collect income with less overall risk than the mission-runners in hisec suffer from can-flippers and the occasional suicide ganks.
Leave it to Jade to not read a thread and then claim that high-sec is safer than 0.0 because of can flipping.
Hahaha, oh my god, I didn't even see this part.
Plus he seems to think people are still mad about the prices which CCP already reneged on.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 18:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Destrim
Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: Gramtar I proposed a good, well reasoned proposal to fix the imbalance between high sec mission running and 0.0/lowsec ratting back in August. I know it was brought up and voted on in the CSM, but I don't know what CCP's response to it was. You can read the whole proposal here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1137380
Most of my suggestions can be summed up by the following: 1) Improve the quality of spawns (max BS bounty) in all systems 2) Eliminate cruiser spawns from 0.0 (all spawns have at least one BS) 3) Add POS module and permanent outpost upgrade which improve truesec of the system they operate in
Of course, you could just double belt/gate rat bounties and be done with it if you want a simpler solution. I don't prefer that, because I feel very strongly players should be able to improve their space, and it tends to favor macro ratters more than regular players. Still, something obviously needs to be done, and something is better than nothing.
I think the fact there was no ratting upgrade suggested in the dev blog is very telling. Someone or some group of someones in CCP plain doesn't like ratting. When you look at the suggested mining upgrades, the rationale becomes more clear. They don't like static asteroid belts.
Around the time CCP removed npc's from the directional scanner (nerfing ratting - since you now have to warp to every belt to see what is up in a system), I recall reading comments from more than one dev that their goal was to pretty much eliminate static asteroid belts. Everything would be anomolies or dynamic plexes all the time.
Whether I'm right about this or not is immaterial. Maybe CCP loves ratting and mining as much as every other PvE activity. The problem is they don't recognize that ratting, in particular for 0.0, is a favored activity of actual players. The best thing about ratting is you can log in, warp to a belt, and start going to town. You don't need a probe launcher and astrometric skills, you don't need to spend an hour bouncing between half a dozen systems hoping you get lucky. You can just shoot stuff for a little bit and get some isk.
Here's something else CCP may not realize. Isk making generally isn't a social activity in EVE. At least, it isn't in 0.0. If the only way a player in 0.0 can make as much or more than a high sec mission runner is to get in a gang and cooperate in order to locate and take down some randomly spawned complex, then 0.0 is still crap.
On a final note, several of the upgrades suggested are hilarious in that they promise "significantly increase the chance...". The problem with them is you can't parse/prove the improvement. If they worked in some systems and not others, how would anyone know? Hey, the GM responds to your petition, you just must be unlucky. Upgrades/improvements that can't be parsed are terrible. People have known this since Everquest days, when certain character abilities plain didn't work.
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
I am quoting this because I want to make sure than someone in CCP reads it. Gramtar has had the best ideas for improving the reward to match the risk in 0.0 for as long as I can remember and if anyone truly has a grasp on what should be done I would say it was him.
I still think he's missing the necessity of a means by which security may be increased. The vulnerability to small roaming gangs will be increased ten-fold, especially since even small disruptions carry far greater implications: being unable to meet the monthly bill for sov.
While that may be true it is certainly better than TWO GUARENTEED COSMIC ANOMALIES!!
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 18:15:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Destrim
Originally by: Hertford I like how Jade spews forth a veritable wall of words that is just a rehash of CCPs aims without mentioning any of the issues brought up in the rest of this thread.
But then this is a terrible thread; Can you blame Jade for not reading it?
True. Methinks it would be better if we re-focused to more constructive ends.
We've done enough flaming... we've made our point: we're not happy with the inf-hub upgrades, they are weaksauce. Penalizing large alliances for holding enormous amounts of space they don't use is all fine and well: it frees-up space. But that is not enough to draw people from empire... the benefits of settling a system are not enough.
So, let's move on to what we would rather have, and discuss the details of that. What do we thing should be used in the military/industrial/sovereignty divisions, and how, etc. What would be worthwhile benefit to draw people out into 0.0?
Removing non-BS spawns from static belts. As in, every single spawn should have at least one battleship. This makes it so the player has to spend less time grinding out smaller spawns in the hope that a Battleship will appear. This is one of the major reasons 0.0 ratting is often not worth as much as mission running.
Give cosmic anomalies regular rats instead of the nerfed, small bounty, no loot/salvage rats they currently have.
Make asteroids contain 5x as many minerals as they do now in 0.0. Most of your time mining is spent moving within range of an asteroid or warping between belts to get to a new rock. This should ideally be coupled with a nerf to the drone regions and compounds in general because they have destroyed the mineral market and made mining one of the least lucrative and most boring things a person could possibly do in this game.
You could also ideally get rid of those stupid "last forever" datacores than have made running hacking profession sites completely worthless unless you magically find a War Stratagem.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 20:10:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Qlanth on 08/11/2009 20:11:27
Originally by: Mkiaki
Originally by: Bonefish O'Hallahan
Originally by: Vadinho
Originally by: Zahorite Table for 300,000 subscribers soon to be 100,000 please.
Right sir. You have your choice of two seating areas. The tables next to the kitchen are free and can support several hundred guests who may never talk to or even see one another as they eat. We also have seating much further from the kitchen, and those tables can only support one or two people, are much more expensive, and everyone has to fight over the same basket of bread and glass of water.
Which will your party prefer?
boosh
Goons tears are the best tears
Ahh yes eve online player "Mkiaki" from the great Center For Advanced Studies enjoys the feeble cries of a crushed GoonSwarm
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 20:19:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Zemi Dahut
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Zemi Dahut You really don't understand what the problem is here which is really not surprising. You should probably have stayed out of this thread since all you're doing is reminding everyone why you failed as a CSM.
Actually Dominion is looking like a pretty good success for my time on the CSM right now
What, making 0.0 less accessible to small alliances and gangs? You're really this delusional?
He is only posting here to get attention. Everyone knows he was a failure and a terrible CSM. The best bet is to just ignore him or talk around him. He gets mad pretty easily.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 20:33:00 -
[20]
I, for one, am all for the scaling back of space and the increased cost of cyno jammers and jump bridgesm, and even the nerf of R64 moons. I am also certain that all of our in-game enemies and allies feel basically the same way.
Right now the problem is that these changes were supposed to come with an added benefit of the ability to make this consolidated, and more vulnerable space, a good home for your alliance. As in you will not want to leave it and if you do leave it your space is more vulnerable.
Except now that the space is worth even less than before. Extra cost plus no added benefits, and let me be clear these benefits are completely worthless under current mechanics, means less desire to be in 0.0 space.
I can see many of the current powerblocs moving to NPC 0.0 space because of this.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 20:53:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Qlanth on 08/11/2009 20:53:43
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Freidrich Hayek
And small-gang PvP flourishes in the prime isk-generating center of... Motsu.
If Motsu was 0.0 it would be hog-heaven.
0.0 does have its own Motsu
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/G-ME2K/agents#Tiet_Saggilo
And if the changes go through the way CCP has layed out the only thing in 0.0 worth fighting over will be access to NPC stations and systems like this one.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 21:14:00 -
[22]
Honor, glory, ~good fights~
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 21:21:00 -
[23]
jade is under the delusion than most people are like him and strive only to have their name appear on a generated space MMO map.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 22:43:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Jade Constantine That might be worth a couple of dozen goon votes for you Herschel. But its a very long way from convincing me that you have a point.
Please, Goons will vote for Goons. I don't have a shot there. I'm going for the Atlas vote
Originally by: Jade Constantine 0.0 becomes more interesting when the existing power-blocs need to struggle for their existence and make significant strategic choices on spending their income.
Agreed. It should never be a walk in the park to live in 0.0 space.
Originally by: Jade Constantine If they fold and reduce rents to a nominal nonsense fee then nothing will change and 0.0 stays the same as it has for the last year.
The fees are not the problem. I liked the original fee structure - taking a system should be a serious hit to the wallet. The problem is that there's not much actual reason to take a system right now. I want upgrades that let a good system house 50 people making 40 mil/hour each, at a minimum. If you put that into place, nobody would give a solitary damn about the fees.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Coming out "against" the Dominion rent model is probably good for a few votes for you though Herschel so don't let me stop you
I'm for the rent model, though I'm not sure whether isk is the right commodity to be paying rent in(but that's a minor issue). I'm just saying, the proposed upgrades look like very good ones to add for the first tier. Where are the other four tiers?
And what about the problem with cosmic anomalies? They are completely inferior to belt ratting in every way regardless of how many guaranteed ones there are in a system at any time. I don't mean to try and quiz you in this thread but don't you agree that cosmic anomalies need to be fixed before CCP starts basing their entire "ratting" upgrade on them?
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 22:50:00 -
[25]
I'll say again that all 0.0 alliances have known about the nerf to R64 for months and probably heard it coming long before it was announced.
And we have known that we would be spending far more money to be able to lock down our systems with cyno-jammers and jumpbridges as well. Most 0.0 entities, including GoonSwarm, were the ones calling for these changes from the beginning. Our CSM representatives along with others were the ones pushing for them.
The problem arises from the promise of upgrades that were lauded as fantastic changes that would increase the profitability of 0.0 space for the average player and allow 50-100 people to be making those profits at the same time, per system.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 22:54:00 -
[26]
The changes to 0.0 I am looking for should be totally unaffected by Sov. All Cosmic Anomalies would be fixed by giving them belt level rats.
All rocks in 0.0 should have 5x as many minerals in them as they do now.
etc. I have laid out exactly my suggestions several times.
You can keep your upgrades exactly as they are now because the problems with 0.0 require more than sovereignty upgrades to fix.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 02:56:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Qlanth on 09/11/2009 02:58:31 Vivian you should also keep in mind that not everyone has multiple accounts to use. Either I am in 0.0 making money to keep upgrades online and make sure my space is defended, or I am in Empire running Level 4 missions to keep ISK in my own wallet.
e: and when considering changes you should also be assuming that most people only have and use one account.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 03:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Vivian Azure
Originally by: Kaldor Mintat
A last note: i hear alot about about having alts for mission running and trading in highsec to earn isk. Nothing wrong with this in general but the point is you should NOT NEED to have that to be able to support yourself.
EvE Online is setup to have more then a single character... CCP makes more ISK this way.
*hint* Power of Two *hint*
You cannot possibly be suggesting that every person playing this game needs two characters to do it "correctly". If you think that CCP is designing game mechanics based on the assumption that every subscriber is using two accounts you are wrong.
If you think that every person must have two accounts to enjoy the game you are wrong.
If you think that 0.0 is not broken because everyone should have another character in highsec running missions you are wrong.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 15:45:00 -
[29]
Originally by: FourDrink Minimum
Originally by: propotkin's alt I really dont understand why "most" people are so negative. A corp with only 10 active characters can easily afford to keep a system.
72.5 mil per day for the system (that includes the cyno jammer upgrades etc) / 10 players = 7.25mil per person per day. That is a laughable amount to get. Everybody needs to stop moaning and start playing instead of sitting in their ivory towers while afk isk earning.
The thing is: holding the space doesn't give you any advantage. And if you're going to grind out 72.5M a day, you're going to do it in under two hours in Irjunen and over two hours in your ****ty little corner of 0.0. So why do it?
Especially considering how easy it would be to start controlling only lowsec moons and have roaming gangs leaving from empire every day to go to 0.0 instead of leaving from an outpost to another region of 0.0
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 15:54:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Sethur Blackcoat Edited by: Sethur Blackcoat on 09/11/2009 15:32:44
Originally by: Kepakh Search pages 25-60, it is burried somewhere there.
Hmm, you mean http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1210267&page=25#723 this? Because that's the only dev response to it at all, and it's not an answer but rather just a weak avoidance of the question
get out stop trolling I've read the thread and know it hasn't been answered and nobody's gonna fall for it and be dumb enough to reread 35 pages
so stop feeling so great about how you're ~the puppetmaster~ because you're not nearly as smart as you think, okay, well, bye
Yep, that's it. Perfect answer for stupid question of such type. Even further in the thread Chronotis(?) admits that CCP is aware of high profitability of L4.
0.0 PVE is more profitable than doing the same thing in high sec.
- better belt rats - better ore to mine - better mission rewards - better exploration sites
Risk vs reward is a myth.
You are wrong on a number of points.
Rats: To start making decent amounts of ISK ratting you need to grind out any chain of rats that is worth under 3 million ISK combined. In some areas of space (Feythabolis, Providence) this is almost impossible because of truesec limitations. In places where it is possible (Delve) this can still take sometimes over an hour. Meanwhile in this time you are killing cruiser/frigate groups with the occaisional battleship. In bounties and loot you can expect to be making 15m/h your first hour and probably 30 mil/hr every hour after that. If you can only play one hour a day, we;lp!
Mining: The Drone regions have made mining high-end ores completely worthless. The price of minerals has crashed so hard that right now the 4th most profitable rock to mine is Veldspar. If you want to mine, say, Arkanor (the most profitable) in 0.0 space you find a group, your lasers cycle twice and you must find a new group. You will spend most of your time finding a new group of rocks to shoot. You can expect to make 15-20mil/hr mining Arkanor, assuming your region even has it.
Missions only exist in (I believe) 4 or 5 different regions. My alliance once controlled 8 regions all connected and not one had an agent.
Most exploration sites have been completely devalued by CCP. The most obvious one is Hacking where CCP invented a new kind of infinite use datacore that makes old datacores completely useless. The only point to running a hacking site is hoping for a War Stratagem which is worth around 14 million ISK last I found one. In one hacking site you can expect to make around 5 million ISK total.
The closest you might come to making more than a Level 4 mission is with ratting, if you spend the time to do so, or with finding a 6/10 complex and hoping for a good drop.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 18:20:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Qlanth on 09/11/2009 18:21:10
Originally by: Kepakh Edited by: Kepakh on 09/11/2009 16:55:04
You are comparing and mixing numerous things together.
1) As I hinted out, if you do the same thing in high sec and then you do it in 0.0, you get better rewards in 0.0. This works fine. 2) Availability of 0.0 PVE resources is unrelated.
In a matter of fact, 0.0 is more rewarding for the same activity. The issue is that you compare L4 to ratting which might be closest in procedure but completely different in mechanics.
I understand very well what you and all posters demanding the answer are asking but that does not make the question less stupid. If you want an answer, ask properly.
Why is risk vs reward a myth.
People ask for dangerous space yielding more rewards basing on simple fact that it is more dangerous. This logic as well as motivation is invalid.
I am in a system with cyno jammer and bubbled gates are perma camped by 200+ man blobs. I undock and warp to first belt. Should rats have higher bounties there just because I am in 0.0? Where is the risk? None, nada.
The only reason why you should get ever more rewarded is because of team work. Your alliance making an effort to claim a space, run a cyno jammer and perma camp gates. This is the only reason you ever get rewarded in compulsory PVP areas - not because of risk, but because of teamplay benefits.
Rising rewards and transfering exact same activities you can do in high sec space will only turn 0.0 into high sec with no Concord. That's just pointless.
0.0 needs another layer of benefits for 0.0 citizens. Introduce more alliance/corp level income like moon mining, taxes bound to sovereignty and tons of new tools how distribute those resources. This is what will actualy make 0.0 interesting and diverse.
You have obviously never been in 0.0 space or tried to make money there. Cyno Jammers are there not to protect the average person running around trying to make ISK to buy a ship. They are there to protect logistics (jumpbridges) or to protect R64 moons. No one uses a capital ship to disrupt mining, ratting, or exploring unless they are heinously rich.
Also I have never been in a system with 200+ people that wasn't the focus of a war. My alliance on average has 500-600 people online (assuming there are no critical ops) and these people are spread over most of Delve and the rest of the galaxy doing whatever it is they do. The most people I have ever seen in a non-contested, non-empire system at once is probably in NOL- with 50-60 people in system, 45-50 of them docked and the rest moving in and out.
No one puts 200 blues and bubbles every gate to protect ratters. In fact I can't remember the last time anyone bubbled an entire gate to protect themselves from the possibility of a roaming gang. It is not reasonable and ends up disrupting the average player more than a gang that may or may not be coming.
No one perma camps a gate to protect ratters. The closest thing to a perma camp you will ever see is probably on the lowsec/0.0 border gates - but most roaming gangs don't start from lowsec. They start in other regions of 0.0
In a normal day in the system I normally base out of I see about 2 reds come through every hour. Most of these are just passing through but some of them are actually looking to kill some ratters. Of course you can't tell which is which so you need to stop what you are doing to get safe or else risk losing your ship but still preserving your ISK/hr
Or I could just run missions in high sec and be completely safe making the exact same amount.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 18:25:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Tippia Not if it's going to attract highsec dwellers, since it means they won't have the same infinite resources to pull ISK from. I.e. they'll get less ISK if they move out of highsec.
I don't know nor I do care wheter it is supposed to attract high sec dwellers. People are ratting in 0.0 regardless of L4 and those people will like those changes. That's good.
Originally by: Tippia I'm already in a dictor. As for a reimbursement scheme, it doesn't particularly matter: if they're getting their PvP ships replaced, then their personal ship loss will be the same as in highsecà except for the PvE ships lost to reds;
You losing ships while ratting? lulz
Originally by: Pointfive All those empire dwellers who have never set foot in nullsec will be dyinggggg to come out to run these anomalies. Just have to find some space, not get killed by your neighbors, pay your large monthly bill, wait months for your system to be fully upgrades, and then hooray they can go back to making the same isk for hour they made safely in empire! Wow what a bargain that is. But oh wait, a cloaker has come to the system, isk drops, a local pvp gang comes to system, isk drops, the system starts getting crowded, isk drops, you also spend most of your time scanning and warping back to new anomalies slowing it down a bit, and oops you have 10 people in system and you guys keep warping to anomaly that someone is already at.
All that work and ships going boom to end up paying money to be worse off than you were.
Same as above:
Originally by: Kepakh
I don't know nor I do care wheter it is supposed to attract high sec dwellers. People are ratting in 0.0 regardless of L4 and those people will like those changes. That's good.
People are ratting in 0.0 despite of level 4 missions because they do not have multiple characters and if you are expected to be able to defend your space from hostiles you cannot be in Motsu running a storyline, you need to be ready in an instant.
0.0 is a terrible excuse for a "home" and the only reason people put up with it right now is the insane alliance-level profit from R64s that give tjhe ability for alliances to afford Titans/more Outposts to Sov4 R64 moons and the ability to PvP without penalty.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 18:40:00 -
[33]
It still seems like people do not understand basic things:
Almost every major 0.0 alliance not only supports but has been pushing for changes to make cyno-jammers less desirable and more expensive. Our CSM representatives are the ones who suggested it, we are the ones who supported it.
Almost every 0.0 alliance also supports the idea of scaling back the amount of space they hold. If you think that Atlas alliance holds 7 regions of space because they want to and not because they HAVE TO to support their players you are wrong. The logistics involved in fueling 7 regions of systems and keeping a jump bridge network online is intense. I'm 100% sure that all of ATLAS would gladly shed those regions GIVEN THAT THEY CAN SUPPORT THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE.
These changes make it very difficult to afford a huge number of regions (good) but give a TERRIBLE alternative for those people to support themselves in consolidated space.
Adding two Cosmic Anomalies will support 0 new players because no one runs them in the first place. They are terrible. Fix Cosmic Anomalies, make it 5 guaranteed in every system with the upgrade and you will be on the right track for making this balance out.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 18:43:00 -
[34]
The problem with "this is only the first step!" is that if you take the first step in a weak, half-assed, almost "pre-nerfed" way then you will see a lot of people get fed up and leave before they can take the second step.
CCP has been really good lately about releasing things completely prenerfed and then wondering why everyone is completely underwhelmed by what they did (see: Black-Ops battleships, Tech 3 Cruisers) and then taking 6 months to un-nerf them.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 18:54:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Qlanth on 09/11/2009 18:55:47
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Alekanderu how can you post something this stupendously moronic and expect anyone to take anything you say even remotely seriously?
Because I am expecting someone else but Goons read this thread, someone being able to understand that exaggareted example serves for better demonstration of principles behind it.
You can read the comparison with shuttle couple posts above if that is more understandable for you.
Originally by: Qlanth People are ratting in 0.0 despite of level 4 missions because they do not have multiple characters and if you are expected to be able to defend your space from hostiles you cannot be in Motsu running a storyline, you need to be ready in an instant.
0.0 is a terrible excuse for a "home" and the only reason people put up with it right now is the insane alliance-level profit from R64s that give tjhe ability for alliances to afford Titans/more Outposts to Sov4 R64 moons and the ability to PvP without penalty.
Ok, so you want L4 income + moon profits. I think you need to be way more reasonable in your wantings...
Originally by: Pointfive I'm sure if your boss came and told you were getting a raise to the same income as the guy who sits next to you and works half as much as time as you do , you would be freaking ecstatic.
Maybe you dont care if this attracts empire dwellers, but that was a goal of the patch. Maybe you dont care you make the same as l4's, im assuming because you run level 4's. Otherwise its awesome that you do not value your own time. Even if the anomalies made more than level 4's most of the time due to having actual competition for spawns and cosntantly having people wanting you dead, you will rarely see that much isk.
Read my other posts, I explained why 0.0 ratting shouldn't be equal not even being compared to L4.
Once again you are doing a great job letting everyone know you have never been to 0.0 space. No average player is going to have a goddamn R64 moon towered up raking in profits for themselves. An average player in my alliance won't have any moon above an R16. The alliance mines those moons and uses profits to pay for fuel for holding the rest of the space we require to support a 6,000 man alliance, or super-capitals to help defend it.
My alliance, or most alliances, does not hand out free ships to people to fly. If you want a ship to fly you make ISK for it. You buy your ship and defend our space or try to take other peoples space. If you have the skills and fit your ship to an alliance standard you can be eligible for reimbursement for your losses paid for by moon income. This makes it so after insurance costs you will only lose 20-30 million ISK instead of losing 40-50 million ISK.
You are completely out of touch if you think that an average 0.0 alliance member sees R64 profits beyond "here we will help cushion your losses you suffered while defending these moons."
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 19:06:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Alekanderu
Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Hertford
Originally by: Honest Smedley
Moon mining is more profitable than in high sec (of course) if you do it right.
And missioning in Irjunen is more profitable than all of those if you're doing it right. Well done for trying to misrepresent the current risk/reward paradigm.
Not so much, no. Those jump bridges networks and throw away cap fleets aren't materializing out of nowhere... and your alliance isn't funding them off the backs of people grinding out missions in Irjunen. If you aren't personally benefitting from the silly money your alliance is rolling in as much as you think you should, consider finding a new alliance.
Did you think the titan conga line came out of an Irjunen-based LP store?
moon mining =/= individual isk making, i don't know why people have such a hard time grasping this relatively simple concept
It's because they have absolutely no grasp on the amount of ISK it takes to run a successful alliance. They think there is an R64 in every system and we are raking in trillions of ISK a day while our space costs nothing to uphold.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 19:11:00 -
[37]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: teji Edited by: teji on 09/11/2009 18:56:05
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 09/11/2009 18:52:11 CCP stated that pure military alliance will be haveing trouble keeping space , i am sure you all goonies missed that part.
Goonies aren't even close to a pure military alliance. I'm sure you missed that part. Or you might have missed the part where the current costs make it unprofitable for any type of alliance to hold many systems in 0.0.
Great i hope you leaving delve, when you finish packing your stuff i will be happy to move there.
Once again I will say that as an alliance GoonSwarm has been preparing for R64 nerf, an increase to the cost of maintaining space, and an increase to the cost of infrastructure (jump brides, cyno jammers). I won't speak for other alliances but I am sure they have been doing the exact same thing.
If there is a single alliance, however, that has nothing to fear after this patch it is GoonSwarm. Smaller alliances or alliances deep in 0.0 without direct access to empire (those that rely heavily on jumpbridge networks to keep their logistics chain intact) are the ones who have to most to lose from this patch. The carrot at the end of the stick was supposed to be the ability for average alliance members to be able to support themselves on an individual level while also maintaining their own space for upgrades. CCP has given us the stick, but there was no carrot.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 19:22:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Guy in Motsu: "Oh crap, I'm out of ammo. /me buys a million rounds off market" Guy in AB-CDE: "Oh crap, I'm out of ammo. /me flies 8j to the nearest station with any on market"
Guy in Motsu: "Well, that's enough loot to be worth selling. /me flies 6j to Jita and sells it all in half an hour...Nice, I can afford a Nightmare!" Guy in AB-CDE: "Well, that's enough loot to be worth selling...oh wait, I just got ganked flying through 17j of nullsec to deliver all my money to market. This is a nightmare."
I don't claim that living in 0.0 is like the labours of Hercules, but even the most cursory glance at how you have to live out there will tell you that the logistics effort is considerable, even for someone who isn't tasked with keeping the POS infrastructure up and running.
You nicely elaborated what I said but avoided the question. Is it justifying ie. higher rat bounties? I say big NO.
0.0 is group content therefore you should benefit from being in a group. More alliance/corp income, more tools how to distribute them = lower personal profit, high benefits of claimed space.
Transfering high sec mechanics into 0.0 will just turn the space into High sec mk2.
Originally by: Qlanth Once again you are doing a great job letting everyone know you have never been to 0.0 space. No average player is going to have a goddamn R64 moon towered up raking in profits for themselves. An average player in my alliance won't have any moon above an R16. The alliance mines those moons and uses profits to pay for fuel for holding space the rest of the space we require to support a 6,000 man alliance, or super-capitals to help defend it.
Whats the point discussing with you when you don't read/understand post you are replying to?
Originally by: Qlanth My alliance, or most alliances, does not hand out free ships to people to fly.
Dude, face it. Your alliance sucks.
I understand perfectly what I am replying to.
You said "You want L4 Missions running profits + moon income. You want too much"
I said "No average member of my alliance sees moon income beyond the level of cushioning losses for PvP done defending those moons, or acquiring more moons (this is essentially what all 0.0 warfare boils down to)."
I do not want to see Level 4 mission running income. I want to see income better than that because I am risking more and expected to do more than a corp member in an empire corp that has 0 logistics infrastructure and 0 risk to account for.
You are only showing that you know less and less about the issue by suggesting an average player is seeing alliance level R64 income.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 19:31:00 -
[39]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 09/11/2009 19:24:24
Originally by: Qlanth
Once again I will say that as an alliance GoonSwarm has been preparing for R64 nerf, an increase to the cost of maintaining space, and an increase to the cost of infrastructure (jump brides, cyno jammers). I won't speak for other alliances but I am sure they have been doing the exact same thing.
If there is a single alliance, however, that has nothing to fear after this patch it is GoonSwarm. Smaller alliances or alliances deep in 0.0 without direct access to empire (those that rely heavily on jumpbridge networks to keep their logistics chain intact) are the ones who have to most to lose from this patch. The carrot at the end of the stick was supposed to be the ability for average alliance members to be able to support themselves on an individual level while also maintaining their own space for upgrades. CCP has given us the stick, but there was no carrot.
IF its not worth it then why are you staying there ????? Are you stupid ?
Oh wait ...
I stay in 0.0 because it means I can PvP without being penalized like in every other region of Eve. I enjoy large fights over R64 moons, I enjoy playing with a large group of people to obtain an objective (R64 Moons), and I enjoy the politics involved with these things.
If this patch goes through as is I believe you will see most alliances consolidate their space, but not in the way CCP intended. Fights will take place over who has access to NPC sov 0.0 and the best agents. Stain will become the richest most contested region in the Eve Universe. My alliance will probably maintain Sov in R64 systems while basing entirely out of NPC space, or even lowsec.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 19:40:00 -
[40]
Right now I am feeling a sense of camaraderie between myself Atlas members. CCP should feel ashamed.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 19:49:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: teji Edited by: teji on 09/11/2009 18:56:05 Goonies aren't even close to a pure military alliance. I'm sure you missed that part. Or you might have missed the part where the current costs make it unprofitable for any type of alliance to hold many systems in 0.0.
Great i hope you leaving delve, when you finish packing your stuff i will be happy to move there.
Once again I will say that as an alliance GoonSwarm has been preparing for R64 nerf, an increase to the cost of maintaining space, and an increase to the cost of infrastructure (jump brides, cyno jammers). I won't speak for other alliances but I am sure they have been doing the exact same thing.
If there is a single alliance, however, that has nothing to fear after this patch it is GoonSwarm. Smaller alliances or alliances deep in 0.0 without direct access to empire (those that rely heavily on jumpbridge networks to keep their logistics chain intact) are the ones who have to most to lose from this patch. The carrot at the end of the stick was supposed to be the ability for average alliance members to be able to support themselves on an individual level while also maintaining their own space for upgrades. CCP has given us the stick, but there was no carrot.
Because Goons like helping the "little guys" more than anyone! This is the stupidest thing I have read yet. Goons are not saying this stuff out of the goodness of your heart; your cold, black, merciless heart. Your big problem right now is that anyone who would potentially rent from you would have to be a total idiot, and they will most likely end up getting scammed. Yah, carebears are going to bring their Hulks in to mine in your space! So you are stuck having to raise revenues from your existing players base and don't have any other options. Yah, I can see why you are crying in this thread more than anyone. Moonswarm is over, either adapt or you will be a victim of evolution.
You must be ignoring a lot to not realize that smaller alliances will be hurt far more than the larger richer ones.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 20:01:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Verone It's going to take a while, and the new system will adapt as time goes on, just like people will adapt to use it as it evolves.
Yes, I'm sure that eventually CCP will figure out the correct balance between the costs and the rewards, but what happens in the meantime? We're seeing a system imposed where 0.0 alliances pour their ISK down the toilet on sov taxes while CCP imposes worthless pre-nerfed "upgrades" which we have to pay for and grind up just to keep running, conspicuously avoids introducing any upgrades to belt ratting (the most valuable method of money making in conquerable 0.0 and the method used by most of its occupants), and says the real benefits are coming Real Soon Now Guys We Promise.
This is supposed to be the patch which opens up whole swathes of 0.0 for the empire hordes wanting to make their fame and fortunes, but CCP wants them to pay through the nose for the privilege from day one while they wait .... 3 months? 6 months? A year? Two years? .... for the actual benefits to arrive. This is not like a new shiptype or module where if its pre-nerfed to the stone age people will just use something different until CCP get around to fixing it. This is the basis of 0.0. and if its pre-nerfed then people 'using something different' means conquerable 0.0 becoming a stagnant wasteland because everyone is running L4s in highsec or Stain/Curse/Venal instead.
This post right here is on the money. If CCP wants people to move to 0.0, if CCP wants current 0.0 alliances to "consolidate" and not "abandon" conquerable 0.0 space they will read this post right here and realize they cannot release these changes pre-nerfed.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 21:10:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Itzena
Also: YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
Originally by: Kepakh What effort? Jumping through gate in a shuttle? Should I be paid for that? 1 hour of jumping through 0.0 gates making me +45M? It is indeed increased risk to move around 0.0 as well as logistical challenge.
Alright I concede. There really is no more risk in 0.0 space than in empire.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 21:38:00 -
[44]
For those planning on going to nullsec to mine be prepared to be sorely disappointed. While you CAN make more ISK than mining Veldspar, Veld is currently the 4th most profitable ore to mine. The drone regions have crashed mineral prices so drastically it is barely worth the effort.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 21:54:00 -
[45]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: Tesal
YES OR NO: Can I have your stuff.
Seriosly.
CCP:
* 75 % of crying post are off goons, sudden defenders of small alliances . * Changes and upkeep cost sound pretty good but there IS still problem with lvl4. * Consider icreasing bounties of rats so running anomalies will be some more profitable of lvl4 . * It could good to add some more usefull upgrades some of which were mentioned in this thread. * Chaniging moon stuff in BPO requirments for t2 stuff was the worst way to deal with moon minerals changes , i am dissapointed in this regard. We still dont know how it will impact EVE economy
So even though we are arguing the exact same point goons are crying and you are...?
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 22:10:00 -
[46]
One thing that has definitely become glaringly clear is that CCP is completely out of touch with 0.0 moneymaking or else they are just ignoring it completely to push an agenda regarding static belts.
I honestly would love to run Cosmic Anomalies instead of doing belt ratting because they are far more interesting. But in typical CCP fashion they released them pre-nerfed and they are basically worthless when compared to normal belt ratting.
The sad part is this could be easily fixed but they seem to have absolutely no motivation to do so. (Hint CCP: these Sov changes were and are perfect motivation)
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.09 22:33:00 -
[47]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: Pointfive
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: Tesal
YES OR NO: Can I have your stuff.
Seriosly.
CCP:
* 75 % of crying post are off goons, sudden defenders of small alliances . * Changes and upkeep cost sound pretty good but there IS still problem with lvl4. * Consider icreasing bounties of rats so running anomalies will be some more profitable of lvl4 . * It could good to add some more usefull upgrades some of which were mentioned in this thread. * Chaniging moon stuff in BPO requirments for t2 stuff was the worst way to deal with moon minerals changes , i am dissapointed in this regard. We still dont know how it will impact EVE economy
The majority of the wgoons re not hining about moon or sov prices, they are complaining about the same ****. The null sec income being crap and level 4s being too good.
I have heards goons crying about :
* Star wars game and expansion that killed it NGE ? And saying it is coming to eve * That 0.0 is now worthless and they are going to farm lvl4 , then saying they stay for other reasons when i am talking about moving to delve. * insulting other poeple beggining on that some have no idea of 0.0 and they(goons) knows everything ending on nerds that lives in mothers basement. * complaints that now they cant pvp in carriers and titans for free. * complaining that now they cant cyno jam and jump bridge entire regions. * crying about small alliances that they suddenly feel so much sympathy for that they cant afford to hold sov.
and many more that i missed ...
And no, null sec is no crap after expansion.
Moons + rats + hi lvl plexes + hi lvl wormholes gives very decent income. You just have to work a litte more ( no more afk empires ) and cant roll caps like they were rifters.
The anomalies are there to give you opportunity to keep isks flowing 23/7. The only thing i dont like they are at the level with lvl4.They should give more.
Also mining is broken beacuse of : lvl4 loot and drones .But thats the diffrent story.
Also CCP what about drones regions. How do you compensate no bounties thing ?
I am challenging you right now to find a single post where a GoonSwarm member is complaining about any one of those bullet points. Keep in mind that no one is "crying for" smaller alliances we are just pointing out that larger alliances like ours are hurt the least by this.
Sometimes I really wish I could sit down and talk to someone face to face about this because you apparently are having a very hard time understanding when it is written.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 04:09:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 04:09:40 Infinitely respawning anomalies 95% of which will not even be close to the amount of ISK you will be able to make belt ratting regardless of how often you hit an empty belt, let alone a level 4 mission.
Easy fix to this is to switch out the pre-nerfed terrible rats in anomalies and replace them with belt rats. That would easily make the current Pirate Magnet worth it (at least for first tear)
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 04:39:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 04:43:45 Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 04:41:57
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Qlanth Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 04:09:40 Infinitely respawning anomalies 95% of which will not even be close to the amount of ISK you will be able to make belt ratting regardless of how often you hit an empty belt, let alone a level 4 mission.
Easy fix to this is to switch out the pre-nerfed terrible rats in anomalies and replace them with belt rats. That would easily make the current Pirate Magnet worth it (at least for first tear)
Case in point.
What you have stated does not jibe with the facts we have been presented, as you can clearly read above. Since the rats in these anomalies will have their quality determined by the level of your upgrades you can NOT state that they are going to be the same as current anomaly rats. You have been told that is incorrect.
Quit distorting the information presented to further your own ends.
Every single thing a CCP employee has posted has said absolutely nothing about "fixing" anomalies or making them worth running. Just that there would be a certain number ALWAYS available and that the top tier anomaly will be "almost on par" with a level 4 mission.
They are completely ambiguous about whether they are referring to the current top tier of anomalies, which are incredibly difficult to find (I would say around 5% of current anomalies are worth running over belt ratting), or if they are planning on changing anything about anomalies to make them worth as much as a level four (add new anomalies, up bounties in anomalies, or increase the rate at which to-tier anomalies spawn.
I am not misrepresenting anything in my previous post. If they do nothing to change anomalies aside from how many guaranteed ones there will be (this is the only thing they have EXPLICITLY stated or even alluded to) they will not be worth running over belt ratting. They would be worth running, however, if instead of the degraded 1/2 bounty, no loot, no salvage rats they were replaced with their regular loot. regular salvage. regular bounty. belt rat counterparts.
e: Keep in mind that I am not suggesting replacing the rats as an upgrade but as a complete overhaul to ALL anomalies regardless of sovereignty. Right now anomalies are a joke - they were released pre-nerfed and despite them being a great idea (they really are a good way to replace current statsic belts) were completely ignored after being implemented.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 04:58:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote: When you run the highest tiers of anomalies, you will financially be on par with Motsu.
and
Quote: When you scan for an anomaly, that anomaly will be based on your upgrade tier, making a specific number superflous (since the tier collectively replaces that).
and
Quote: The distribution of sites is made so that the higher the upgrade, the higher quality anomaly. Financially, the top tier anomalies that will be spawning are much more profitable than mining and ratting currently is, and pretty much on par with level 4s. Added to that, they have a chance of escalation.
Bolded for the most pertinent part. Now what do you suppose is different about top tier anomalies anomalies that makes them "much more profitable than ratting"? What do you think "on par with level 4's means in terms of tackling the issue of current anomalies being useless?
If you are going to try to continue persuading people that this can not possibly mean the quality of rats (not to mention volume of them available to shoot) is significantly better than current anomalies then there is no point to trying to continue any sort of rational discussion with you. You've already made up your mind and are just blowing smoke.
They cannot possibly mean the quality of rats because they have specifically said right here that the higher the upgrade, the higher the TIER of anomaly will be likely to spawn. Like I said before about 5% of anamolies are currently worth running. They have said nothing about WHAT EXACTLY the new chance of these top tier anomalies will be when they spawn. They have said NOTHING about making the other 95% of anomalies worthwhile to run PERIOD. As in, while the top tier are worth running over belt ratting, the lower 19 tiers are far worse.
And you wouldn't need to make only the top tier worthwhile if only the rats in them were regular and not pre-nerfed. This would make it on par with belt ratting and sometimes even better than belt ratting, and for the top 25-30% better than a Level 4
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 05:03:00 -
[51]
To make it clear when I say "because of the risk and increased logistics of 0.0 space I should be able to make more, not as much as a L4 in empire" I am not sayign I want to make 300% more ISK, 200% more ISK or even 100% more ISK than what L4 mission runners make. I want to make maybe 20-30% more than a mission runner in highsec makes because to defend my own space I am constantly battling and losing ships. I would very much enjoy for the end-game of Eve to be able to facilitate my ability to defend my space and not make it so that I decide "I might as well just have an alt in empire so i can more reliably make ISK"
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 18:03:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Orthaen
Originally by: Alexander Knott
The argument all the big power blocs use is a flawed. They all try to argue the assumption that 0.0, and the game is purely about maximizing isk/hour, so 0.0 needs to provide a higher income then high sec for anyone to bother heading to 0.0. That is a load of horse ****.
This game is about fun. For some, that may be by maximizing isk/hour. Those people are sitting in Jita trading. They make millions/billions per day, with absolutely 0 risk. For everyone else, the game has other attractions besides making the most money. Being an MMO, you could assume the "other attractions" revolve around team play. The new sov changes greatly emphasize team work and cooperation to support your alliance, not solo profit. If this isn't your cup of tea, get out of 0.0, and start soloing level 4s. Thats what this game offers people who desire to conform to a solo playstyle. If you want to work with a large group of people to have fun, stay in 0.0 and make less money.
Sucks, not being able to have everything you want huh? Almost like CCP wants choices in their game to have consequences.
Here is my problem with your argument: Making a stake in 0.0 requires TONS of ISK. Even under current mechanics. Take a heavily contested system like 49- a few months back. This system had something like 50 moons on it and to keep Sov you needed 51% of all POS in system. So when band of Brothers (Kenzoku) took the system they proceeded to put a large tower on 51% of the moons in the system. I would eastimate that they spent around 20-30 billion ISK in fuel and towers to keep a hold on this system. That's currently 2 months worth of R64 money (soon to be 4 or 5 months)
How much does your corp or alliance actually spend to keep their position in Motsu or Irujen? Probably office fees. Maybe a few million a month.
For most most systems in space an alliance will be paying more under new mechanics to claim sovereignty, this is absolutely fine. To make up for these costs an alliance needs to supplement their income. R64s are being nerfed. Currently on an alliance/corporate level my alliance mines all R64s and R32s, and leaves unused towers to individuals to mine (first come first served)
Either my alliance is going to have to start taking R16 moons from individuals to help supplement their income or else they are going to have to raise taxes far higher than they have ever been. Either way this results in a net loss of individual profit.
The individual in any alliance is expected to help defend their space. To do this they need to make ISK. If I only have one account I can only be in one place at one time. I am either in Motsu running Level 4 s to make the most guaranteed and reliable income or I am in 0.0 space making ISK so i can be ready at a moments notice to defend against roaming gangs (which will be far more dangerous than ever before).
I am completely leaving out of this example the cost of man power for increased logistics in 0.0, and the cost of importation of goods (modules, ships, fuel, T2 ammo) that is required for a successful alliance.
It's almost as if some of you have absolutely no idea the level of cost and manpower required to keep an alliance running in 0.0. I'm sure a group like Atlas would be able to tell you how incredibly difficult it is to keep space running when you are 40 jumps from empire. There are other smaller alliances as well deep in 0.0 that are absolutely going to be destroyed by these changes because increased cost without any compensation is basically unacceptable.
Smaller 0.0 alliance are barely scraping by as is. When my alliance (the largest one) controlled ALL of the South including about 7 different regions (required to keep players with personal ISK) we had basically no profit margin whatsoever. If you recall we had 1 (one) titan until we moved to Delve where the R64 profits started flowing like mad and we were able expand in that respect.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 18:06:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Uberfrau So, let's say that 10 alliances each upgrade 5 systems, each with CCP's dream of hundreds of pilots per system. These alliances have upgraded several times to have better chances of wormholes spawning.
That's 50 specific, heavily-trafficked systems that suddenly will be full of wormhole *exits*, thus increasing the odds of you exiting a wormhole into extremely hostile territory.
Am I wrong about this?
Theoretically that might be correct. But under the current changes each system will be very lucky to be holding more than 7-10 people making ISK per system. On average I would say probably 4-5 people will be able to make ISK. This is actually an improvement but only because currently a single system in 0.0 can sustain about 1-2 people with the highest true-sec highest belt count systems maybe supporting 3.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 18:22:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 18:23:07
Originally by: Kepakh Edited by: Kepakh on 10/11/2009 18:18:12
Originally by: Qlanth
Here is my problem with your argument: Making a stake in 0.0 requires TONS of ISK. Even under current mechanics. Take a heavily contested system like 49- a few months back. This system had something like 50 moons on it and to keep Sov you needed 51% of all POS in system. So when band of Brothers (Kenzoku) took the system they proceeded to put a large tower on 51% of the moons in the system. I would eastimate that they spent around 20-30 billion ISK in fuel and towers to keep a hold on this system. That's currently 2 months worth of R64 money (soon to be 4 or 5 months)
Except you are forgetting to say that you will only need 2B per month to maintain the exact same system under new mechanics which completely invalidates your already invalid arguments.
Nice try though.
The cost of maintaining contested systems like 49- that cost 30 billion ISK a month under current mechanics will be cheaper. every other systems (all 100 some of them) will be about twice as expensive.
Are you now, quite hilariously, trying to suggest keeping space will be cheaper after the expansion?
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 18:29:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 18:30:11
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Qlanth
The cost of maintaining contested systems like 49- that cost 30 billion ISK a month under current mechanics will be cheaper. every other systems (all 100 some of them) will be about twice as expensive.
How many of the them do you actualy need for sov level only? Drop those and the numbers are far far away from what you are trying to imply.
No wonder you are so vehemently asking for more rewarding PVE content when you can't work with numbers...
How many systems do we currently need to support our playerbase? Every single one because current mechanics do not facilitate an individual making decent ISK with more than one person in a system. How many will we need after this expansion? Essentially the exact same amount because the changes do so little to actually facilitate a denser population they might as well have added nothing at all.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 18:34:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Qlanth
The cost of maintaining contested systems like 49- that cost 30 billion ISK a month under current mechanics will be cheaper. every other systems (all 100 some of them) will be about twice as expensive.
How many of the them do you actualy need for sov level only? Drop those and the numbers are far far away from what you are trying to imply.
No wonder you are so vehemently asking for more rewarding PVE content when you can't work with numbers...
Or do you mean how many POSs do we need to maintain Sov? In a heavily contested system like 49- you want to control at least 51% of the moons which is why it is so expensive (I said this in my original post).
In an R64 system you probably have 51% moon coverage by smalls and a cynojammer.
In any other system you will only have one or two large POS. The cost is minimal. Under new mechanics this cost will easily double in price.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 18:36:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Orthaen
Originally by: Qlanth Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 18:23:07
Originally by: Kepakh Edited by: Kepakh on 10/11/2009 18:18:12
Originally by: Qlanth
Here is my problem with your argument: Making a stake in 0.0 requires TONS of ISK. Even under current mechanics. Take a heavily contested system like 49- a few months back. This system had something like 50 moons on it and to keep Sov you needed 51% of all POS in system. So when band of Brothers (Kenzoku) took the system they proceeded to put a large tower on 51% of the moons in the system. I would eastimate that they spent around 20-30 billion ISK in fuel and towers to keep a hold on this system. That's currently 2 months worth of R64 money (soon to be 4 or 5 months)
Except you are forgetting to say that you will only need 2B per month to maintain the exact same system under new mechanics which completely invalidates your already invalid arguments.
Nice try though.
The cost of maintaining contested systems like 49- that cost 30 billion ISK a month under current mechanics will be cheaper. every other systems (all 100 some of them) will be about twice as expensive.
Are you now, quite hilariously, trying to suggest keeping space will be cheaper after the expansion?
Then why did you use 49- as your "baseline" example of how expensive 0.0 is? "Making a stake" in 0.0 involves taking a super powers capital system does it? And for ****s sake people, stop using the stupid "2 billion per system" imaginary number. The dev blog stated 950 odd million per month. Those numbers have since been reduced significantly, due to all the QQing in this thread. The only systems that will get anywhere close to 2 bil/month are jump bridge/cyno jammed systems, coming in at like 1.6 billion/month. You plan to cyno jam and jump bridge every single system you control? Well, good for you. Enjoy your unsustainable sov tax.
0.0 will be a more enjoyable, less POS-spamming experience. It might cost more, it might not. That has been established. If you are only interested in making ISK, trade in jita. You want to have fun? Play the game. It is your decision.
I used 49- as an example of how expensive a system can be for an alliance trying to maintain its space. Either from invasion or day to day activities.
I should have been more clear though, so hopefully my other post makes that.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 18:44:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Qlanth How many systems do we currently need to support our playerbase? Every single one because current mechanics do not facilitate an individual making decent ISK with more than one person in a system. How many will we need after this expansion? Essentially the exact same amount because the changes do so little to actually facilitate a denser population they might as well have added nothing at all.
Every single one? No, you don't.
You only need sov where you want to have upgrades which is not 'every single one'.
Once you place a hub in the system, and it is actualy used, it will easily pay for itself and if used effectively, it leaves you nice ISK in corp wallet.
If you insist on having all systems you touch fully upgraded, it is only your choice, don't blame the system though.
See here is what you do not understand. The new system does not improve the problem of density in 0.0. To keep all our players with ISK in wallet and ships at hand we need to control 100 some systems so they can all spread out and make decent money. In current mechanics each system will support on average two people.
Under new mechanics each system will support on average 3 or 4 people. That is including the improvements on upgrades. The problem with 0.0 money making has more to do with scalability of resources than ISK/hr.
The changes will double our costs while not affecting player income, maybe even hurting it because R64 moons, the crux of alliance level income, will be losing their value.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 18:49:00 -
[59]
You should also keep in mind that my alliance controls easily the best true-sec region of the entire game and we are able to support all of our members in two regions because of this. We used to control 7 different regions and struggled to make ends meet on most occasions because of terrible true-sec and a lack of R64 moons.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 19:12:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Pervin Mervin
Originally by: Qlanth Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 18:46:21
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Qlanth How many systems do we currently need to support our playerbase? Every single one because current mechanics do not facilitate an individual making decent ISK with more than one person in a system. How many will we need after this expansion? Essentially the exact same amount because the changes do so little to actually facilitate a denser population they might as well have added nothing at all.
Every single one? No, you don't.
You only need sov where you want to have upgrades which is not 'every single one'.
Once you place a hub in the system, and it is actualy used, it will easily pay for itself and if used effectively, it leaves you nice ISK in corp wallet.
If you insist on having all systems you touch fully upgraded, it is only your choice, don't blame the system though.
See here is what you do not understand. The new system does not improve the problem of density in 0.0. To keep all our players with ISK in wallet and ships at hand we need to control 100 some systems so they can all spread out and make decent money. In current mechanics each system will support on average two people.
Under new mechanics each system will support on average 3 or 4 people. That is including the improvements on upgrades. The problem with 0.0 money making has more to do with scalability of resources than ISK/hr.
The changes will double our costs while not affecting player income, maybe even hurting it because R64 moons, the crux of alliance level income, will be losing their value.
CCP has said themselves they want an upgraded system to be able to to support 50-100 people. Tell me how two cosmic anomalies are going to do this when they barely support one person each (each of those people could easily be making more belt ratting). These changes are a VERY far cry from what it will take to support 50-100 people.
Here's a question for you. Why do you need to maintain and hold sov in those extra systems for people to "fan out" and make isk from. If the systems remain unclaimed won't people still be able to use them therefore freeing you from the shackles of ccp rent?
This is true and probably how things will work out. My alliance will control parts of space and not pay for any upgrades (they are essentially worthless without a more grandiose 0.0 fix). Either that or we will consolidate our space on our own terms instead of CCPs. By moving to NPC space and only claiming sovereignty in systems with valuable moons so we can keep them cynojammed.
Really though this speaks volumes toward CCPs failure at incentivising 0.0 space. It looks like they were aiming for alliances to want to claim sovereignty in any system they control to be able to take advantage of the upgrades. I would rather bypass the upgrades completely and just continue making ISK without paying for the cost of sovereignty.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 19:23:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Kepakh
Originally by: Qlanth See here is what you do not understand. The new system does not improve the problem of density in 0.0. To keep all our players with ISK in wallet and ships at hand we need to control 100 some systems so they can all spread out and make decent money.
Ok, so you failed to run the numbers on space costs but it is me that I don't understand something here...right.
I say it again: I absolutely don't care how sov changes are SUPPOSED to work, all I am concerned about is what they WILL actually do.
Sovereignty changes are fail in regards to determined goals but this was obvious with first dev blogs released. That does not however mean that the system isn't working on functional level or breaking the game like many people try to imply.
I don't understand your first statement. What costs should I be running? How much ISK players make? Or the cost of holding Sovereignty in 100 systems in current mechanics? Or the cost of holding Sovereignty under future mechanics?
As far as the rest of your post: In this regard you are absolutely correct. 0.0 alliances will be able to make some ISK with the changes. Not every bit of ISK we make will be going toward maintaining sovereignty and we will be able to survive (GoonSwarm especially). We will, however, be making decidedly less ISK than before because of the increased cost of maintaining space without increasing the amount of ISK earnable by players.
Basically all these changes are going to do on a personal level for me is make me not want to claim sovereignty. I think there are a lot of other alliances feeling the same way. Especially groups like Atlas who live DEEP in 0.0 with terrible true-sec systems, very few R64 moons, and HEAVY reliance on jumpbridge networks to keep them supplied.
I do not want to see this happen because I enjoy large scale PvP, and having all of my enemies abandon 0.0 space (I'm betting a large amount would just abandon the game) would be very very boring for me.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 19:31:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Qlanth See here is what you do not understand. The new system does not improve the problem of density in 0.0. To keep all our players with ISK in wallet and ships at hand we need to control 100 some systems so they can all spread out and make decent money.
Already shown before. Currently system can hold circa 1 person per 8-10 belts + 1-2 people more thx to exploration stuff. With changes EVERY anomaly can hold 1 more person. That is 1-5 people via belts + 0-10 people via anomalies. Why 1 person per anomaly? If you FINISH it you warp out and new anomaly is spawned instead. Implying that 10 anomaly system can keep only 3-4 players busy is just plain lie. Unless you run 2 sites AT SAME TIME using one character.
So you already get 1-15 people per system (dependant on belts/anomalies) + more due to mining stuff (tho gravi sites suck) + at least few people who can perma-farm radars/magnetos (no idea if its +1 or +1 per level up to 5 or 10 sites - still its one person per site). So you can get up to around 20-25 people working at same time in fully developed system. This is excluding any mining (and i do exclude it coz mining in 0.0 is worthless in most cases. Hint, hint CCP).
That all assumes that the anomalies will actually be worth running. I said earlier in this thread that I would estimate about 5% of all anomalies are currently worth running over belt ratting. If I come into a system and see that all the anomalies are terrible I might as well start ratting because I'll make more ISK.
It seems I was mistaken. I thought that the upgrade just gave a flat 2 anomalies period. if it does indeed give 10 anomalies at max level then that is actually a much better improvement than I thought.
I still think however than if you want to fix 0.0 money making you need to fix those anomalies so that all anomalies are worth running because they are on par with belt ratting (the top tier is better, the majority is on par, the bottom tier is slightly worse but you need to finish them for a new one to spawn) or else I will just keep on belt ratting because I can make more ISK more reliably.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 19:53:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Orthaen
Originally by: Qlanth
I still think however than if you want to fix 0.0 money making you need to fix those anomalies so that all anomalies are worth running because they are on par with belt ratting (the top tier is better, the majority is on par, the bottom tier is slightly worse but you need to finish them for a new one to spawn) or else I will just keep on belt ratting because I can make more ISK more reliably.
People in this thread, from testing, and CCP responses have indicated that this is what will happen. The anomalies quality will be at least on par with ratting, once you've upgraded them. Ideally, better.
On the topic of 0.0 mining being worthless....why? Is it the logistics, or getting the ore refined? ABC ores are 2-3 times more profitable then mining in hi-sec. I know, a lot of poor trusec systems have absolutely laughable ores, but grav sites are always better then the resident ores, meaning they would be primarily ABC ores in 0.0 grav sites, with some dark ochre, gneiss, and mercoxit on the site.
Because of the drone regions and drone compounds in general mineral prices have been steadily crashing. ABC ores are not worth as much as they were a year ago and actually if you crunch the numbers Veldspar is probably the 4th best ore to mine.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 20:57:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 20:58:23
Originally by: Verlisia people who complain about having to bring everything from empire are just stupid. You can build almost everything on site with the right towers and stations. The only thing anyone should have to bring down are maybe componets to build T2 stuff and maybe some things for invention. If your Alliance is based on Ratters and Moongoo then that's your problem. Clearing a single system of its minerals refining them in the local station/pos with good skills and having people build all manner of stuff you need solves the whole ship replacement problem as well. My group does only 1 major mining op a week and we manage to collect enough materials to build enough cruisers/battle cruisers to supply everyone with replacements and were only based in high/low sec.
Null sec groups have access to much greater quantities of materials then we do they just don't properly utilize their full potential. If you idiots used the materials on hand to build what you needed instead of grinding rats all day to pay for stuff then you'd be better off. Anyone who doesn't maximize efficiency of the materials given to them rather then just depending on the direct income of bounties and moons deserve to fail.
No matter how many miners you have clearing out your system, to survive in 0.0 you will always need to import at the very least Tritanium. Battleships are the bread and butter of every 0.0 fleet looking to accomplish anything substantial (take moons, take systems).
You could mine dry and entire system in 0.0 and get enough Trit for maybe two or three battleships. Now keep in mind you need to replace these on an alliance level. You need to replace ~20 battleships every week assuming you don't have a major loss. Often times it is much easier and more cost effective to import Tritanium or just import ships.
Also things like: implants, POS modules, and of course fuel among other things often cannot be acquired outside of importation either because they are NPC seeded or because they do not exist in your region.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 21:24:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Verlisia
Originally by: Qlanth Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 20:58:23
Originally by: Verlisia people who complain about having to bring everything from empire are just stupid. You can build almost everything on site with the right towers and stations. The only thing anyone should have to bring down are maybe componets to build T2 stuff and maybe some things for invention. If your Alliance is based on Ratters and Moongoo then that's your problem. Clearing a single system of its minerals refining them in the local station/pos with good skills and having people build all manner of stuff you need solves the whole ship replacement problem as well. My group does only 1 major mining op a week and we manage to collect enough materials to build enough cruisers/battle cruisers to supply everyone with replacements and were only based in high/low sec.
Null sec groups have access to much greater quantities of materials then we do they just don't properly utilize their full potential. If you idiots used the materials on hand to build what you needed instead of grinding rats all day to pay for stuff then you'd be better off. Anyone who doesn't maximize efficiency of the materials given to them rather then just depending on the direct income of bounties and moons deserve to fail.
No matter how many miners you have clearing out your system, to survive in 0.0 you will always need to import at the very least Tritanium. Battleships are the bread and butter of every 0.0 fleet looking to accomplish anything substantial (take moons, take systems).
You could mine dry and entire system in 0.0 and get enough Trit for maybe two or three battleships. Now keep in mind you need to replace these on an alliance level. You need to replace ~20 battleships every week assuming you don't have a major loss. Often times it is much easier and more cost effective to import Tritanium or just import ships.
Also things like: implants, POS modules, and of course fuel among other things often cannot be acquired outside of importation either because they are NPC seeded or because they do not exist in your region.
That's not true though about the trit... you only need 13 or so million trit to build a abaddon for instance with a ME of 0. there's more than 13 Mill worth of trit in one belt in empire belts. ( we mine usually about 2 belts at a time and at the end of it all we typically end up with about 25-30+ mill of trit depending on if we concentrante solely on veld or not. so that's a battle ship per belt and they respawn fairly often enough that you could draw in enough materials in a week with a group of dedicated industry guys who know what their doing to provide loads of ships including bs's.
There is also the issue that while I am mining Veldspar and Scordite 23 hours a day I could be ratting or running Level 4 missions and make more than enough ISK to just buy the Tritanium and import it.
In actuality I can gather more Tritanium faster by ratting and using my ISK to buy it in empire and import it to 0.0 than i could by just mining it.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 21:37:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Orthaen
Originally by: Qlanth
There is also the issue that while I am mining Veldspar and Scordite 23 hours a day I could be ratting or running Level 4 missions and make more than enough ISK to just buy the Tritanium and import it.
In actuality I can gather more Tritanium faster by ratting and using my ISK to buy it in empire and import it to 0.0 than i could by just mining it.
We have an inconsistency. (Maybe. I didnt actually keep track of who exactly was complaining about what.) On one hand, there is no reason to mine trit in 0.0 because you can just make money ratting and import the stuff. On the other hand, 0.0 is SOOOO HARD because it takes so much work and logistics to import stuff and its unfair and totally not cool. Either import the stuff, and deal with the logistics, or mine it yourself and don't. The opportunity cost, as people here seem to be so fond of bringing up, of importing stuff is that...you have to do the importing. Perhaps a mining gang could spend less time to mine it themselves, and then in the time saved not hauling **** you could rat/whatever. Even more money!
And again, some people like mining. They dont want to rat all day every day.
And that is fine. They can mine all day but they need to realize their opportunity cost. I can be making 30 million ISK/hr ratting, but if I mine to make 15million ISK/hr, I am suffering a 15 million ISK opportunity cost.
And guess what? 0.0 alliances have been dealing with the logistics of importation from, literally, day one. People complain about this but no one expects CCP to start seeding 0.0 space with NPC goods.
The problem arises when people either fail or refuse to recognize that increase risk and increase in work maintaining that space should result in increased reward. CCP does recognize this because they are attempting to give us the incentive of being able increase the profitability of our space through sovereignty upgrades.
Except the upgrades are almost completely worthless and still do very little to address the issue of scalability of resources in 0.0. Level 4s are infinitely scalable. You can have essentially thousands of players running missions from the exact same agent in the exact same system. Every 0.0 system can hold at most 2 people.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 21:41:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Verlisia
Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: Verlisia
Originally by: Qlanth Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 20:58:23
No matter how many miners you have clearing out your system, to survive in 0.0 you will always need to import at the very least Tritanium. Battleships are the bread and butter of every 0.0 fleet looking to accomplish anything substantial (take moons, take systems).
You could mine dry and entire system in 0.0 and get enough Trit for maybe two or three battleships. Now keep in mind you need to replace these on an alliance level. You need to replace ~20 battleships every week assuming you don't have a major loss. Often times it is much easier and more cost effective to import Tritanium or just import ships.
Also things like: implants, POS modules, and of course fuel among other things often cannot be acquired outside of importation either because they are NPC seeded or because they do not exist in your region.
That's not true though about the trit... you only need 13 or so million trit to build a abaddon for instance with a ME of 0. there's more than 13 Mill worth of trit in one belt in empire belts. ( we mine usually about 2 belts at a time and at the end of it all we typically end up with about 25-30+ mill of trit depending on if we concentrante solely on veld or not. so that's a battle ship per belt and they respawn fairly often enough that you could draw in enough materials in a week with a group of dedicated industry guys who know what their doing to provide loads of ships including bs's.
There is also the issue that while I am mining Veldspar and Scordite 23 hours a day I could be ratting or running Level 4 missions and make more than enough ISK to just buy the Tritanium and import it.
In actuality I can gather more Tritanium faster by ratting and using my ISK to buy it in empire and import it to 0.0 than i could by just mining it.
So i suppose that running lvl 4 missions for an hr gets you as much trit and isk then gathering 10 or so people to clear a belt in the same amount of time and i suppose having to move it all the way out to your base of production while running the lvl 4's are all done within that same amount of time? we donate our time for that one day to fund the free ships and do 50/50 ops to pay people for their time as well to suppliment the weekly donation. given that we can build nearly all the ships we need and equipment as well our members dont have to grind as much to pay for their own goods and instead of spending it on ships spend it on better gear and implants... but i suppose your methods of looking out only for yourselves is a much better way of doing thing?
Your argument doesn't make any sense because you are talking about one person running a Level 4 versus 10 people mining.
If I have 10 people running level 4s and using all of their profits to purchase Tritanium off of the market versus 10 people in Hulks mining out belts in 0.0 space the people running Level 4s will be able to produce more Tritanium by the end of the week. Its not a matter of opinion its a fact.
Do you really think if people could get more Tritanium faster by mining in 0.0 they wouldn't already be doing it? People strive in this game to make as much ISK as fast as they possibly can.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 22:07:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 22:11:12 Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 22:09:34 Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 22:09:10
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally by: Verlisia
There is also the issue that while I am mining Veldspar and Scordite 23 hours a day I could be ratting or running Level 4 missions and make more than enough ISK to just buy the Tritanium and import it.
In actuality I can gather more Tritanium faster by ratting and using my ISK to buy it in empire and import it to 0.0 than i could by just mining it.
So i suppose that running lvl 4 missions for an hr gets you as much trit and isk then gathering 10 or so people to clear a belt in the same amount of time and i suppose having to move it all the way out to your base of production while running the lvl 4's are all done within that same amount of time? we donate our time for that one day to fund the free ships and do 50/50 ops to pay people for their time as well to suppliment the weekly donation. given that we can build nearly all the ships we need and equipment as well our members dont have to grind as much to pay for their own goods and instead of spending it on ships spend it on better gear and implants... but i suppose your methods of looking out only for yourselves is a much better way of doing thing?
Your argument doesn't make any sense because you are talking about one person running a Level 4 versus 10 people mining.
If I have 10 people running level 4s and using all of their profits to purchase Tritanium off of the market versus 10 people in Hulks mining out belts in 0.0 space the people running Level 4s will be able to produce more Tritanium by the end of the week. Its not a matter of opinion its a fact.
Do you really think if people could get more Tritanium faster by mining in 0.0 they wouldn't already be doing it? People strive in this game to make as much ISK as fast as they possibly can.
you may make more in a hr that way but you have to deal with the logistics of moving the minerals and the risk is higher (usually) when you have to move goods through several jumps than and it takes time to do that as well in which your not earning any isk at all. Plus why do you need all that isk anyway whats the point in having 5 billion isk when you only fly sub capitol ships (talking myself here) I don't need to worry about tons of isk to suppliment my losses i just work on taking fewer losses so i don't have to grind missions or isk to support a pvp habit.
Lets say I imposed a race on 20 players split into two groups of 10.
They each had 7 days to gather as much Tritanium as possible and put it in my home system of C3N.
One group decides to mine it with hulks right inside the C3N system, which is a refinery. The other group decides to run Level 4 missions, buy the Tritanium from Empire with ISk and import it to 0.0 space using freighters or jump freighters.
What would be the outcome? Every hour the miners would gathering 15 million ISK of tritanium. Every hour the mission runner would be gathering 30 million ISK of tritanium. After 3 and a half days of this competition the mission runners will have so much tritanium that the other team will not be able to catch up in the remaining 3 and a half days.
So after, say, 5 days the mission runners stop and begin importing their tritanium. By the 7th day they will have all their tritanium in the system. Even though the miners never left C3N and even though the miners had to import it in the end the risk and work of importing gives a better reward.
e: Edited this post so that it didnt get cut off
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 22:35:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Orthaen
Originally by: Dante Edmundo Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 22:29:36
>> but it does make 0.0 more appealing for the player base at large.
No - it doesn't.
Proof or GTFO.
Expansion adds things for every brand of player except pure-ratters, who will have more competition. It does nothing to make 0.0 less attractive. Yeah, you're right.
Mostly I would say the proof is that every major 0.0 space holding alliance has posted in this very thread saying they think CCP has done a poor job creating incentive for even current 0.0 holding alliances to stay.
These alliances include but are not limited to, GoonSwarm, MM, PL, Razor, Legion of xXDeathXx, Atlas and Against ALL Authorites
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 22:44:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Qlanth
Originally by: Orthaen
Originally by: Dante Edmundo Edited by: Dante Edmundo on 10/11/2009 22:29:36
>> but it does make 0.0 more appealing for the player base at large.
No - it doesn't.
Proof or GTFO.
Expansion adds things for every brand of player except pure-ratters, who will have more competition. It does nothing to make 0.0 less attractive. Yeah, you're right.
Mostly I would say the proof is that every major 0.0 space holding alliance has posted in this very thread saying they think CCP has done a poor job creating incentive for even current 0.0 holding alliances to stay.
These alliances include but are not limited to, GoonSwarm, MM, PL, Razor, Legion of xXDeathXx, Atlas and Against ALL Authorites
YES OR NO: Dominion is a Sov nerf, but a resource buff.
No, once again we will go back to opportunity cost.
If I can make 20 million ISK running a cosmic anomaly (this is actually a fair estimate given current mechanics) or 35 million ISK belt ratting (I would also say this is a fair estimate given current mechanics), which should I chose? Belt ratting right? No matter how many cosmic anomalies I can have guaranteed to spawn, unless every single one of those is a top tier anomaly I should still be trying to maximize my ISK/hr by ratting in a belt.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 22:57:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Tesal YES OR NO: Dominion is a Sov nerf, but a resource buff.
Originally by: Qlanth
No, once again we will go back to opportunity cost.
If I can make 20 million ISK running a cosmic anomaly (this is actually a fair estimate given current mechanics) or 35 million ISK belt ratting (I would also say this is a fair estimate given current mechanics), which should I chose? Belt ratting right? No matter how many cosmic anomalies I can have guaranteed to spawn, unless every single one of those is a top tier anomaly I should still be trying to maximize my ISK/hr by ratting in a belt.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 23:07:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Qlanth on 10/11/2009 23:07:59
Originally by: Ukucia
Originally by: Renada Trinity Well I actually read most of this...there are good points, but mostly complaining, sorry my opinion.
(...)
This patch will allow some of that space to free up and let smaller corp/alliances to form in 0.0 space.
Then you didn't read this thread.
Increased Sov costs just means that the big alliances will only officially claim key systems. They will still occupy the same space as they do today. The upgrades are so terrible that they can not reduce their footprint in order to sustain their pilots.
So yes, the blobs on the in-game map will be smaller. The blobs on the map that will be generated out of a thread on CAOD will be exactly the same. And if a little guy tries to move into one of the systems that is unclaimed officially, but claimed in CAOD, they will be crushed like a bug. Because that big alliance is still using that space for ratting, which remains the only reasonable income stream for the individual pilots trying to live full-time in 0.0.
If CCP buffs the anomalies well above what the blues have described in this very thread, then you might see alliances contract. But when those anomalies offer equal income to L4s in Empire, take 100 days to get, and can be completely shut down by parking an afk cloaker in an anomaly so it can't respawn, they are not worth buying.
Quote: What I see is the upgrade is going to make people have to actually work for once in order to keep thier space.
And you've apparently never tried to live in 0.0.
Agree completely with this post and the key statement is:
Quote: Increased Sov costs just means that the big alliances will only officially claim key systems. They will still occupy the same space as they do today. The upgrades are so terrible that they can not reduce their footprint in order to sustain their pilots.
I would LOVE to be able to shed systems in favor of a more dense space-empire. In fact that's what the changes were meant to facilitate. these were the changes our CSM representatives pushed for. But CCP came up short so its time for them to considering a better incentive
My suggestion was an overhaul of anomalies that essentially involved replacing them with regular belt rats with regular bounties, loot, and salvage.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 23:16:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: Roger Douglas
Originally by: Tesal YES OR NO: Dominion is a Sov nerf, but a resource buff.
Sov nerf: yes. Nerfs all the perks of sov: cyno gens/jammers/JB's/CSAAs/sov4
Resource Buff: No. Given that we can't test/have no idea how the effects will play out.
Pirate magnet: more guaranteed anomalies. Better than belting? No. Profession sites: This is mentioned a lot. Mags/radars are poor income. Ladars are only in Cosmos. Grav's are good only in WH's.
Complexes: Probably a bright side here. However, there better be a lot of them, because if you have 20 probers looking for one site, only one guy is going to get lucky.
WH generator: Yessiree baby! Excellent idea, and would rock if L5 would create a constantly open WH that would not decay. The bummer is that to adequately extract WH resources you need to live there.
Mining Upgrades: If this means spawning hidden belts with the composition and density of current system belts or (heaven forbid!) grav sites, then this is worthless. If you are talking about spawning a WH class grav site, i'm all over that. Superdense roids ftw! By the way, you'd generate a ton of goodwill if you multiplied the average output of a veld roid in 0.0 by 4-5x. That would make 0.0 mining much easier.
There will be more ratting resource than there was before. Why do you deny that? Ratting is not being nerfed, there will not be fewer rats. Why do you deny that?
First of all Cosmic Anomalies are not the same as belt ratting. They are worth less per hour than belt ratting under current mechanics and will stay that way unless CCP has some changes they have yet to release. It is not a "ratting resource."
Second of all no poster in this thread has made any mention of a nerf to ratting, aside from you in this post right here.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.10 23:21:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Tesal
Originally by: KeratinBoy
Originally by: Tamahra YES OR NO: Have you ever been caught beating your wife?
I get to reframe, you do not. :smugbert:
ANSWER THE QUESTION: YES OR NO: THERE WILL BE MORE RATS IN DOMINION THAN THERE ARE NOW, RIGHT?
I did all caps and added an arrow, you have no choice but to answer the question.
The real question is if I have rats in an anomaly and rats in a belt and the rats in the anomaly are worth 2/3rds the amount of ISK as the ones in the belts why would I bother shooting them?
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.11 02:13:00 -
[75]
Originally by: KeratinBoy You agree we are getting shafted then?
Look, every 0.0 holding alliance, irrespective of personal feelings, has stated why the upcoming changes are bad. Paying through the nose for, well, the same experience is something none of us are inclined to do.
What if, along with these changes, CCP decided to charge players through the nose for, well, the same experience?
Can you people get it through your heads yet that this is NOT GOOD?
Don't you see we are all just crying because we cannot adapt.
Adapt or die.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.11 02:28:00 -
[76]
Originally by: gambrinous
Originally by: KeratinBoy What if, along with these changes, CCP decided to charge players through the nose for, well, the same experience?
The updated patch notes now state that they are trying to reduce empire alt sprawl, you know, condense empire carebears into fewer, more lucrative alts. As a result you will have to pay 7 mill a day for any character that logs on in empire. To make things more lucrative, there are now 10 more lvl 3 agents in every system.
This is an excellent post.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.11 03:52:00 -
[77]
Originally by: ServantOfMask
Originally by: Kayl Breinhar many good points
i agree with most of what you typed, with a few exceptions.
the greatest wars were fought over purely player created drama.. SirTrolle's speeches of total EvE subjugation fuelled a hatred and subsequent vicious war. You as a Goon of all people should know what happened when he said he'd kill you off completely.
all this talk of no more large scale warfare due to lack of R64 importance is misguided.
post-dominion there will be 4 R64 to fight over not 2, as well as 2(?) types of R32's? how about the few sov'ed systems alliances will continue to hold?? talk about a friggin multi-billion isk target ... i agree that goons will keep parts of the subway running and so will any other alliance worth their logisticians... but with the increased cost and effort of building and maintaining a JB route it increases dramatically in target profile! again just by existing its worth a few billion in upgrades and x days of sov.
just a few points on warfare post dominion as i see it.
about goons standing up for the little guy... well i have a hard time believing EVE's resident scammer alliance.
We stand to gain absolutely nothing from even our enemy alliances abandoning 0.0 space. Even if they all did and we didn't why would we want to take more space under the new mechanics? The entirety of the Eve Universe relies on constant war to keep the economy moving.
And plus we like to be the ones that destroy alliances, instead of watching them die to bad game mechanics.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.11 05:00:00 -
[78]
Goons are make vocal and make posts. This, and sports!, at 11
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.11 05:14:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Zastrow im expecting a new dev blog that's going to resolve all of this any second now
The Council of Stellar Management ladies and gentleman
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.11 05:38:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Qlanth on 11/11/2009 05:39:15
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Originally by: Zastrow Our dream for Dominion was that lucrative upgrades meant people lived in 0.0 instead of running L4 missions. Lucrative 0.0 upgrades means carebears are happy. More people actually living in 0.0 means more targets for combat players. People playing in the 0.0 sandbox means emergent gameplay so the developers are happy.
Unless 0.0 individual player income generation is lucrative and JUST WORTH IT, then you don't have carebears in 0.0. No carebears means no targets. No targets means pvpers leave. No emergent gameplay. Nobody's happy, everything sucks.
It all starts with making 0.0 profitable on the individual level. so there ok i just rehashed exactly what i said to ccp months ago, can we actually move forward now
Zas, seriously, what happened? Did CCP just go in some completely different direction? During the Fanfest they said that the sov changes they took some ideas from you CSM, but is this it? Also, Helen Highwater stated that many of the upcoming changes in this expansion including the sov changes were spear-headed by Darius Johnson. What gives? I mean if this is what goons wanted to happen then why???
What Zastrow is saying is that we wanted to get rid of huge empires hiding behind cyno-jammers because it is no fun. We wanted to nerf titans because they are no fun. We wanted to increase the scalability of 0.0 resources in 0.0 so more people could make money faster without having to spread themselves across the galaxy to do so.
The CSM, in the end, have no control over what CCP decides or does not decide to implement. They relay to CCP what they believe to be the best decisions. In this case I have the utmost faith that Zastrow, Avalloc and other 0.0-centric CSMs presented their case as best they could.
Unfortunately I don't think CCP listened very carefully.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.11 18:30:00 -
[81]
Honestly I would have been fine with the old prices. it's the supposed "upgrades" that need to be reworked.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.11 18:34:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Qlanth on 11/11/2009 18:33:51
Originally by: Mokita maybe if we increase the spawn rates of things that are both unpopular and unprofitable, people will use them to make more isk
This quote basically applies to every single infrastructure hub upgrade except the complex spawning one.
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Qlanth
Caldari Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.11 18:37:00 -
[83]
Another thing I have been purposely avoiding but is a problem I have feared since the announcement of R64 nerf is: What exactly is my motivation for taking new space?
I can imagine some of my alliance's enemies will be trying to take our space for the sake of pure revenge but what is supposed to fuel my fire after the first 6 months? 0.0 needs something static to fight over as for years the only thing alliances EVER fought over were:
Static complexes Static R64 moons
Both of which have been nerfed.
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