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Great stuff and amazing feedback. I'm pretty much in favour of allmost all of the plans, except making solo Hulk miner live harder.

I mined in a Hulk, in HS for quite a long time. I never lost a single one.

Mine in a backwater.
Mine aligned.
Use Local.
Use D-Scan.

The list goes on. Sitting like a lump at the warpin of the belt, mining while alt tabbed away, is how a lot of hulks get ganked.

Doing that when you know you have a price on your head is, I believe, one of the clinical signs of brain death. Commence the organ harvesting.

A good thing, else you'd have been perma-banned years ago.

1 I do mine in a backwater
2 mining aligned is hardly the life saver it is said to be when your not being a hyper-paranoid meth freak
3 I use local
4 this is highsec, I am too busy using D-Scan in my actual wormhole to give a rats ass about gankers

And I never sit at at the warp in point for belts like a lump as you say... And there is no price on my head.


Are you going to continue to fantasize about my mining routines while calling me stupid, or can we drop all of this nonsense?

Give the miners a fighting chance. Any barge should be able to withstand at least 3 salvos of a good skilled destroyer pilot.
Any mining barge should be able to target a suicide ganker in such a fashion (i.e. short time) that they are able to counter attack with their drones.
You can not attack the SG as it is now. Who would want his 300-500+Mill Hulk be blown up by Concord for a preemptive strike? Only after the SG fire their first shot can one counter attack, which is futile now. Let the suicide gankers at least risk to be blown apart by sufficiently (drone) skilled miners. The SG should not get away with a 2Mill Destroyer against a highly skilled adversary in a Hulk.
If the suicide gankers use Battlecruisers to accomplish their goal and avoid being ripped apart by the drones, they have to spend at least a decent ammount of ISK on the ship that will eventually be blown up by Concord. Suicide ganking should still be possible, but not as easy or as cheap is it is now.

The orehold of Hulk, Skiff and Mackinaw (when icemining) should be large enough to hold two cycles of a perfect miner with a perfect supporter (both with implants and maxed out skills). Anything less is clickageddon. One of the Mackinaws' Iceminers already switches off at the begin of the second cycle although there is space left - not enough to hold the full cycle return, but more than 0m3. Check the space left only at the end of the cycle, not at the beginning.

To make the Procurer useful it needs to be able to fit 3 stripminers. Which of course would require the retriever to fit 3 as well. Add a multiplicator to assign a bonus/malus as you seem fit. A Procurer will never become popular with just 1 stripminer and most likely not even with 2, no matter what the cargo-/orehold or the tank. If I can fit a battleship with 8 MinerII and it outmines the procurer, guess what I will use? If I can use a Hulk and even though I have to dock frequently I still outmine the Procurer, guess what I will use. In a dangerous area, where the Hulk perishes soon, how much longer will a scrambled Pocurer last? Guess who will mine there?

To make the Mackinaw more useful allow the medium slots to be used. Currently one can only put a couple of civilian shield booster there - which is just enough to fend off rat damage in upper high sec areas...

Make the cargohold extenders/rigs apply to the Orehold, please!!! I know you won't, but I would love this On a (relatively) small cargohold those are nearly useless and therefore a waste of slots.

Don't buff the Hulk beyond recognition, it takes a lot of time to get there, which should still be worthwhile. Adding the ore miner skill should take care of the training time / usefullness rate between T1 and T2 barges.

Mining cruisers - increase ore-/cargohold to make them usefull. Any Destroyer outmines them and they even come with more cargo... Better yet, skip the dedicated mining frigates, they are to small. Make the mining cruisers the entry level for dedicated mining, with a decent bonus and a suitable cargohold. Ofc one should still be able to mine in a frigate, just skip the mining bonus there.

You can not attack the SG as it is now. Who would want his 300-500+Mill Hulk be blown up by Concord for a preemptive strike? Only after the SG fire their first shot can one counter attack, which is futile now. Let the suicide gankers at least risk to be blown apart by sufficiently (drone) skilled miners. The SG should not get away with a 2Mill Destroyer against a highly skilled adversary in a Hulk.

The orehold of Hulk, Skiff and Mackinaw (when icemining) should be large enough to hold two cycles of a perfect miner with a perfect supporter (both with implants and maxed out skills). Anything less is clickageddon.

On a (relatively) small cargohold those are nearly useless and therefore a waste of slots.

Yes facepalm, because you wrote idiotic things.

You want to proof ? Drake Rebalance Topic

Check the datas. Everything was wrote there earlier.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

1 Drake 95646 kills (almost double numbers than any ships)

Most used weapons:

1 Heavy Missile Launcher II 34381

The drakes is OP, need rebalance and nerf. The buff of cruisers not help for this problem.
500+ drake fleets in 0.0. Drake blobs everywhere and the missile spam eat server resources more than any gunboat fleet.

And stop those arguments, how you playing 3.5 years ago. Many players playing with this game more than 9 years ago, just like me too.

***

What ship to need to rebalance:

Coercer > Need +1 mid slot
Move interceptors back to line, after faction and pirate frig OP buff, CCP push them back to bad category.

Nerf drake blobs somehow.

Malediction !!! Long range tackler with short range weapon platform ? Really ? Unlogical and bad developed design.

Gallentean ships need much love. Make them faster and agile, that's need for their short range weapon system.
After speed nerf and web nerf these ships got disadvantages.

My personal thoughts:

Coercer - meh, everyone bitches about the lack of a midslot but its called a *coercer*. You get your kills exactly like the ship name says, by convincing the enemy they can take you down and WHAM they're dead. I've seen this down (yes, in solo fights) so many countless times I just don't see a real reason why all ships MUST have two mid slots. ....but on the other hand, the universe won't implode if it did.

Drakes - is it the Drake that's the problem, or the blob? Not much you can do about the blob, that's the drawback of EVE combat and not a reason to nerf a ship, though you could certainly make the case that Drakes need some.....adjustment ;)

Malediction - I don't think you understand tackle frigs, TBH. Their job is not to apply DPS to the thing they are tackling, there should be plenty of other ships around for that purpose. *Any* DPS on a pure tackle frig / inty is there for one reason - self defence, usually against drones. In that case, the small caliber turrets and short range rockets the fleet ceptors fit are quite suitable.

Gallente ships - this is exactly what they buffed, on almost every single hull, in Crucible. While there is lots of other things that will help the Gallente out (the new drone damage mod, the proposed sensor damp fix which will force more fighting against gallente ships into short range) I don't know that you're going to convince CCP that speed is still the major issue when they just got finished buffing speed and agility across the board.

This is good point. I like flying with small ships too, but prices of my clone is too costly to flight with them in 0.0.
Ship repairs at not NPC 0.0 stations is costfree, would be nice there the cost free clones or reduced costs such as at FW stations.

1.
How many ship have in EVE just one mid slot ? Check this out.

2. The problem is the drake blob. Why ? Because the drake is the best solution if you have enough members and not need too much learning time, so the newbees can easily using them after short learning period and they will increasing those drake blob numbers.

3. Wait. methought the short range weapon have better DPS than long range. So, you are wrong.
Every other ceptor can use long range weapon systems and every ceptor have bonuses for those weapon systems, except Malediction.

4. No, they still ridiculously slow. They useabled at station camp and gatecamp (except just few ship arazu etc), but when need to fight out of station/gate range they have poor performance, because they are slow and the webs not slowing downt the targets too fast. So they reach to optimum shot range too slow and this is huge disadvantage than any other ships.
Just asking yourself if you would two opportunities:

Fly with a very slow boat with huge short range DPS, but never can't reach the enemy or a faster ship with common DPS which can dictate range and dont lose his DPS when shot farther range.

I guess slow boat which is lost his DPS over 20km and can't reach his target it's a bad choice.
No matter how big your DPS if you can't hit anything.
This would be a bad approach from an engineer, if would want to build a slow boat with very short range weapons.

It's same, when heavy cavalry is dissapeared which changed onto a more mobile tactical unit.

If you're too distracted to mine safely in HS, you might consider running a less expensive mining ship.

Mining aligned will keep you 100% safe, guaranteed. Just warp off when someone starts landing on grid.

You just admitted that you are choosing to not use the tools available to keep safe. So why should your expensive cardboard box be safe?

The orehold of Hulk, Skiff and Mackinaw (when icemining) should be large enough to hold two cycles of a perfect miner with a perfect supporter (both with implants and maxed out skills). [...]. Check the space left only at the end of the cycle, not at the beginning.

To make the Procurer useful it needs to be able to fit 3 stripminers. Which of course would require the retriever to fit 3 as well. Add a multiplicator to assign a bonus/malus as you seem fit. A Procurer will never become popular with just 1 stripminer and most likely not even with 2, no matter what the cargo-/orehold or the tank. If I can fit a battleship with 8 MinerII and it outmines the procurer, guess what I will use? If I can use a Hulk and even though I have to dock frequently I still outmine the Procurer, guess what I will use. In a dangerous area, where the Hulk perishes soon, how much longer will a scrambled Pocurer last? Guess who will mine there?

To make the Mackinaw more useful allow the medium slots to be used. Currently one can only put a couple of civilian shield booster there - which is just enough to fend off rat damage in upper high sec areas...

Make the cargohold extenders/rigs apply to the Orehold, please!!! I know you won't, but I would love this On a (relatively) small cargohold those are nearly useless and therefore a waste of slots.

Don't buff the Hulk beyond recognition, it takes a lot of time to get there, which should still be worthwhile. Adding the ore miner skill should take care of the training time / usefullness rate between T1 and T2 barges.

Mining cruisers - increase ore-/cargohold to make them usefull. Any Destroyer outmines them and they even come with more cargo... Better yet, skip the dedicated mining frigates, they are to small. Make the mining cruisers the entry level for dedicated mining, with a decent bonus and a suitable cargohold. Ofc one should still be able to mine in a frigate, just skip the mining bonus there.

I have not once asked for my expensive cardboard box to be safe. And yes, I am too distracted to mine safely in highsec, and I wrote that possibility off a long time ago. I am really glad for you that when you mined in highsec, that was the only thing you where doing, and you devoted %100 of your attention to that task while eying every passer by with suspicion.

They all can, as they have more than 3k EHP.
EHP is nice, if you have time and mods that work fast enough. Otherwise just HP aply. And on top of that, the Mackinaw is a poor tanker, without the ability to use med slots.

Set drones to agressive
Setting your drones to agressive in High sec can lead to you being concordockened. I actually keep them in the drone bay unless attacked by rats.

Set ECM drones to agressive, or bring a friend in something with sebos.
A tanked hulk with either a friend in a fast locking Gank BC or RR ship means Alpha is required (in fact, 6 Tornados are required.
ECM drones - dronebay and bandwith is limited and usually one is faced with rats, so I choose dps over ecm. My choice of course. As to having a friend in a BC/BS won't save you - if they see him they either do not attack or bring a friend or two as well.

So stop fitting and flying your ship bad, and you have everything you want.
I fit my mining barge for mining. Thats its job. As for avoiding being scrambled: a mining barge should be fitted for mining and not for anti ECM or anti frig or anti what ever - fit a ship for its purpose. Try to fit it to suit all all purposes and it will fit none.

Nullsec is safe due to the large amount of effort expended by a large number of people.
Never said anything different. Point is, you know immediately if the new pilot is friend or not.
To do any meaningful mining you can not run each time someone appears in local - in null sec you know if it is not blue it is time to run, otherwise just mine on. In high sec gankers just push their security level high enough to not appear orange or red - if those colors appear in local I run - I am not that stupid...




2 clicks every ten minutes. Oh, the horror.
You obviously are not a skilled miner. I am maxed out and have a maxed out supporter. Of course I also have the best implants, ships and modules. I even sometimes mine ore instead of Ice.





Seriously? They said that they'd be buffing the yield of the Procurer/Retriever. Might want to wait to see the numbers before you **** yourself over them.

Actually I believe they are going to push them. However, I say: kill them while the are small - I did not say anything about the new unified inventory until I had to deal with this s**t. I just try to voice my concerns before it happens again this time.

Mining Cruisers are going the way of the Dodo, replaced by an Ore Frig.
Mining cruisers will go that way... unless modified as suggested. As for mining frigs - frigs by definition are small. I would not use a mini to deliver ore to a steel manufacturing plant, I' d use a resonably sized truck.

If they're a waste of slots, don't use them... *gasp*
Nice to see you can be impressed!

Scrambled industrial ships die unless CONCORD responds quickly. In areas without CONCORD, they just die. The trick is to not get scrambled.
Concord does respond too slow - Lost a Mackinaw in a 0.7 System though being aligned. Watching local and warping out when a ship appears in the vicinity that is not an industrial is not always working, they just take to much time for everything. As for fitting see above...

Setting your drones to agressive in High sec can lead to you being concordockened.

ECM drones - dronebay and bandwith is limited and usually one is faced with rats, so I choose dps over ecm. My choice of course. As to having a friend in a BC/BS won't save you - if they see him they either do not attack or bring a friend or two as well.

I fit my mining barge for mining. Thats its job.

You obviously are not a skilled miner. I am maxed out and have a maxed out supporter. Of course I also have the best implants, ships and modules. I even sometimes mine ore instead of Ice.

I just try to voice my concerns before it happens again this time.

They all can, as they have more than 3k EHP.
EHP is nice, if you have time and mods that work fast enough. Otherwise just HP aply. And on top of that, the Mackinaw is a poor tanker, without the ability to use med slots.

Set drones to agressive
Setting your drones to agressive in High sec can lead to you being concordockened. I actually keep them in the drone bay unless attacked by rats.

Set ECM drones to agressive, or bring a friend in something with sebos.
A tanked hulk with either a friend in a fast locking Gank BC or RR ship means Alpha is required (in fact, 6 Tornados are required.
ECM drones - dronebay and bandwith is limited and usually one is faced with rats, so I choose dps over ecm. My choice of course. As to having a friend in a BC/BS won't save you - if they see him they either do not attack or bring a friend or two as well.

So stop fitting and flying your ship bad, and you have everything you want.
I fit my mining barge for mining. Thats its job. As for avoiding being scrambled: a mining barge should be fitted for mining and not for anti ECM or anti frig or anti what ever - fit a ship for its purpose. Try to fit it to suit all all purposes and it will fit none.

Nullsec is safe due to the large amount of effort expended by a large number of people.
Never said anything different. Point is, you know immediately if the new pilot is friend or not.
To do any meaningful mining you can not run each time someone appears in local - in null sec you know if it is not blue it is time to run, otherwise just mine on. In high sec gankers just push their security level high enough to not appear orange or red - if those colors appear in local I run - I am not that stupid...

2 clicks every ten minutes. Oh, the horror.
You obviously are not a skilled miner. I am maxed out and have a maxed out supporter. Of course I also have the best implants, ships and modules. I even sometimes mine ore instead of Ice.

Seriously? They said that they'd be buffing the yield of the Procurer/Retriever. Might want to wait to see the numbers before you **** yourself over them.

Actuallz I believe thez are going to push them. However, I say: kill them while the are small - I did not say anything about the new unified inventory until I had to deal with this s**t. I just try to voice my concerns before it happens again this time.

Mining Cruisers are going the way of the Dodo, replaced by an Ore Frig.
Mining cruisers will go that way... unless modified as suggested. As for mining frigs - frigs by definition are small. I would not use a mini to deliver ore to a steel manufacturing plant, I' d use a resonably sized truck.

If they're a waste of slots, don't use them... *gasp*
Nice to see you can be impressed!

Scrambled industrial ships die unless CONCORD responds quickly. In areas without CONCORD, they just die. The trick is to not get scrambled.
Concord does respond too slow - Lost a Mackinaw in a 0.7 System though being aligned. Watching local and warping out when a ship appears in the vicinity that is not an industrial is not always working, they just take to much time for everything. As for fitting see above...

You didn't really address any of the points I was making.

1.) All I said was that people get plenty of kills with a one-midslot coercer. It's not a requirement for being a viable ship. Yes, it may be the *only* ship that has that layout, but "everyone else has one" isn't a reason to buff something. You have to first prove that the lack of a the second mid cripples the ship.

2.) Other's have already said this so I don't need to repeat it, but just because a ship is used in a fleet doctrine doesnt mean its OP. (Believe me, no one relishes the thought of a Drake nerf more than me - but it needs to be justified, a specific change for a specific reason). Saying "gobs of noobs use them" is not logic that will ever be used to balance a ship, I'm just explaining how the dev's work.

3.) Wait, what? My point was that tackle interceptors are not designed for applying DPS to their target. That is the job of Assault ships, or any other number of ship. As for the "short range > long range DPS" comment, feel free to mount light missile launchers on it if you like. See what kind of DPS you get when compared to rockets. It doesnt really matter, if you're attempting to fit enough DPS on your fleet inty to kill the ship you're tackling, you're doing it wrong. Fleet inty's are designed for obtaining and holding point, for the rest of the fleet to finish off. Your job is to *survive*. The enemy will have drones on you. I'd love to see you attempt to stave off a wing of warrior II's with railguns, artillery, and light missile launchers. 125mm's, gatling pulse lazers, small blasters, and rockets work much better for this purpose.

4.) You dont have to explain why Gallente ships need speed to me, I understand that. I was just explaining that CCP just got finished buffing speed, that's all. *Why* Gallente ships need speed is a separate issue from whether or not CCP is going to buff it a second time before tackling the other issues that Gallente ships struggle with.

You are wrong. That is not arguments, that's truth and no matter you like it or not.
The drakes overpowered. That's why 0.0 alliances using them.
Easily to tank them with logistics, they have infinity cap (fleet doctrines), they have relative long shoting range. They have ridiculous large HP than other BCs.
Those informations at hyperlinks not lying and the +500 drake fleets it's a real problem already.
And dont forget do you asked datas with your another character and you told you dont belive for a twitter blog. The eve killnet top20 datas and the other ones not lying. So, try harder your evade.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/Drake3LSE.jpg and you said this ship is not overpowered.
232.5 passive shield HP regenerations / seconds it's a bad joke too (2615HP/11.25sec). 2x large armor repairer (not medium) can healing 1600HP/11.25 sec.
So what do you talk about it ?

Gallentean ships need much love. Make them faster and agile, that's need for their short range weapon system.
After speed nerf and web nerf these ships got disadvantages.

Not a bad bit of EFT warrioring. A bit of a LOL fit, but not too imbalanced.

I suppose you think the Mael and Nado are overpowered too, otherwise why would 0.0 alliances use them? Those fleets can if properly FCed, do some serious damage to a Drake fleet by all accounts. So still need seeing this as an OMG ONOES gamebreaking situation worthy of your zealous Drake hating campaign. Since I don't argue religion with those that can't see reason, I am out of this conversation. Buh-bye.

How you got CSM membership ?
God save us.

Have you tried using the new light and medium web drones with the Gallente blaster boats?

The aggregate effect of the web drones plus a standard scram/web is sufficient to slow down most opponents, allowing the blaster boat to actually get into range and stay there.

True, you lose some DPS by switching from combat drones to web drones, but this is rather negligible when using a full rack of blasters and completely offset by the ability to get within blaster range faster.

True, the web drones are rather fragile and don't last long when targeted, but a blaster boat also doesn't need much time to take down most opponents, once within optimal range.

Just a suggestion, not an argument.

At long last
The balance is going to be restored
In the past it took a Battleship to gank a miner and that has droped down to a just a Destroyer.
The cost of ganking will now go back to where it was.
Too long the gankers has had a cheap and easey way to kill expensive mining ships.

Your link leads to a thread of arguments from people who are on both sides of this argument, hardly proof of any conclusion.

As for stats, Hurricane and Drake used to be fairly neck and neck, until a certain large alliance started fielding huge fleets of them. Did the Drake suddenly become OP at that point? Frequency =/= OP. After they are done with the Drake (and once CCP gets it in their head to nerf something they usually go way too far), I presume you would be screaming just as loudly to nerf the Hurricane as it becomes the fleet doctrine whelp-BC?

As for lag and server resources, are you seriously going to say the Drake is OP due to server resource use? That's more a problem for CCP to fix, and to my understanding they have made great strides in that direction.

The drake is a good ship. But there are plenty of other good ships out there. Don't start the fail-cascade of nerfing anything that works for balance's sake, because when that cycle is done all we have left are crap ships and stories from old timers who lament about the good old days when there where ships that where good to fly.

o/ None ofthe Above. A certain person who's posts I'm no longer reading was worried that I had terribly hurt your feelings. Hope you're doing ok.