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Xuixien
Rifterlings
Damu'Khonde
40
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Posted - 2012.06.15 22:06:00 -
[31] - Quote
Yeah OP. Tech moons are everywhere and they're free to use. Just go take one.
Rabble Rabble!! |
Vigilant
Vigilant's Vigilante's
2
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Posted - 2012.06.16 00:16:00 -
[32] - Quote
I miss mission rewards giving out T2 construction comps  |
Akatenshi Xi
Elite Shadow Society
ESS Empire
29
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Posted - 2012.06.16 01:15:00 -
[33] - Quote
tl;dr
+1 if you can get minerals and/or other things that are used in the manufacturing process ONLY by salvage modules via salvaging the wreck. |
Grumpy Owly
Paladin Philanthropists
633
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Posted - 2012.06.16 07:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:
Stop dancing around the questions and actually answer this one. Why only tech, why not the other t2 materials?
(See above, explains reasoning)
The proposals are for possibilities for technetium rewards from "salvaging", a task associated with specialised techniques to find viable components from ship wrecks. Its added playability associated with being able to extract the technetium from ships with this profession.
Bounty Hunting for CSM7 |
Jenghiz
Dead Pod Syndrome
MORE.DPS
0
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Posted - 2012.06.16 07:36:00 -
[35] - Quote
Owly,
As a small industrialist I love the idea of being able to get tech another way. However, realistically this is not a good idea for a couple of reasons.
Problems:
1. Game balance - As stated earlier in thread ship loss is one of the few mineral sinks.
2. Having a wreck drop a sub component of a product is not very plausible. Example - getting a techetium drop from a T2 wreck ignores several steps of moon refining as well as construction of components themselves.
3. Ship Preying - This idea will guarantee a large amount of high sec ganking will occur. Making a T2 wreck more profitable. This would kill miners as the kill cost to take out a barge/exhumer is already pretty bad. Making it more profitable to gank barges will pretty much ensure mineral costs will keep getting higher.
Solutions:
Perchance to build on your idea it would be better to see if components would drop from T2 ships. Example T2 armor plates, or sensor clusters, shield emitters etc. If you then wanted to take these items and use scrapmetal reporcessing to break it down to the lowest possible elements go for it.
Final Thought - The reason moons are currently the only way to get tech is due to large orbiting body's being source for base materials to make all of the wonderful components we all need. The ring mining idea may open an alternate way to get some base materials just be sure you have a PoS to be able to refine it into more usable forms.
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Lord Zim
798
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Posted - 2012.06.16 07:42:00 -
[36] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:Danika Princip wrote:
Stop dancing around the questions and actually answer this one. Why only tech, why not the other t2 materials?
(See above, explains reasoning) The proposals are for possibilities for technetium rewards from "salvaging", a task associated with specialised techniques to find viable components from ship wrecks. Its added playability associated with being able to extract the technetium from ships with this profession. Shoe on the other foot: Please provide reasoning as to why only moon goo (as current) should be the only methodology of aquiring technetium. I'm expecting ring mining to expand on possibilities of sharing out the technetium supply so why not add small benefit possibilites to salvaging at the same time in a similar manner?
Technetium isn't the only type of moongoo out there. You keep limiting it to just technetium. |
Grumpy Owly
Paladin Philanthropists
634
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 08:13:00 -
[37] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Danika Princip wrote:
Stop dancing around the questions and actually answer this one. Why only tech, why not the other t2 materials?
(See above, explains reasoning) The proposals are for possibilities for technetium rewards from "salvaging", a task associated with specialised techniques to find viable components from ship wrecks. Its added playability associated with being able to extract the technetium from ships with this profession. Shoe on the other foot: Please provide reasoning as to why only moon goo (as current) should be the only methodology of aquiring technetium. I'm expecting ring mining to expand on possibilities of sharing out the technetium supply so why not add small benefit possibilites to salvaging at the same time in a similar manner? Technetium isn't the only type of moongoo out there. You keep limiting it to just technetium.
Are the other forms of moon goo used in Tech 2 ship construction to allow it to be salvaged as components from wrecks. Is it therefore relevant to my suggestions, or are you simply missunderstanding and taking things out of context again?
Bounty Hunting for CSM7 |
Grumpy Owly
Paladin Philanthropists
634
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 08:41:00 -
[38] - Quote
Jenghiz wrote:Owly,
As a small industrialist I love the idea of being able to get tech another way. However, realistically this is not a good idea for a couple of reasons.
Problems:
1. Game balance - As stated earlier in thread ship loss is one of the few mineral sinks.
I think I already covered this as a possibility. But the inclusion of more technetium even if slight on the market will actually help to reduce prices as presumably it can be sold more advantageously by more than just a select few. As such it may help to actually reduce T2 prices a little but I wouldn't expect it to be game breaking. As with all aspects of the economy a sweet spot can be found that usually self regulates itself. Also if its a marginally small amount then it would not be so much of an issue to where the lions share is, with the current moon goo process.
Quote:2. Having a wreck drop a sub component of a product is not very plausible. Example - getting a techetium drop from a T2 wreck ignores several steps of moon refining as well as construction of components themselves.
Totally disagree, technetium is discrete units of components much like salvage components as I explained above. There is no viable way to exclude it from a salvaging option, especially when as you say it can be similrly done with reprocessing. The stipulation I previously made was that as tech it is likley to be fragile and then may effect the number capable of being extracted in the process. Likewise it would be best needed to be an advanced salvaging option with skilling options to cater for some relvance to understanding the tech. (Wether combined with things like Encryption skills from the science category might be a an example of exxisting pre-requisite adaptations to apply here also)
Quote:3. Ship Preying - This idea will guarantee a large amount of high sec ganking will occur. Making a T2 wreck more profitable. This would kill miners as the kill cost to take out a barge/exhumer is already pretty bad. Making it more profitable to gank barges will pretty much ensure mineral costs will keep getting higher.
I actually did realise this but will still continue to promote it:
This I concede is likely due to the attraction of added value to salvaging wrecks yes. But it will also provide much more salvage opportunities to classic PvP T2 wrecks also. T2 ships are intrinsically limited by their rareness and costings associated with the production, also with skilling and simply the production volumes capable of sustaining a certain supply in game. It is also intrinsically limited lower than the original source of moon goo needed to actually make the T2 ship in the first place as it only salvages and recycles a small fraction of the original source.
But I concede that this small addition does allow for more profitable encounters with T2 exhumers from ganking. But on the scale of things a few 100k of additional potential materials isnt so important with the total cost of the ships and mods combined in normal exhumer kills. Yet the advent of some additional sources of T2 tech products might actually help to reduce the strangle hold on current recognised controls (OTEC). Thus reducing the prices of T2 ships margianlly, so overall it actually balances out in theory.
If the current controllers like GSF are also calling for a nerf on the value of and possibilities of this area of the economy it also provides an overall route to help ing that process.
I suppose like the recent changes to R&D where invention costs have marginally risen with Core changes and numbers of these restricted more, (though FW presumably causing a balance? Yet to be seen) it might be viewed that CCP are in fact trying to make the T2 ships more rewarding to obtain and also more rare and beneficial as a result. If that is the case then this model might not be so possible even when economies wont be destabalised by it. But that aslo means that the realtive cost of T2 ships will increase anyhow as CCP introduce methods for making them less affordable?
So at best, allowing a small fraction to be salavaged might actually help matters, and as a result no objections from gankers getting a small reward in the process. We also have to remember that ganking is still a valid play method and that marginal rewards from changes should still apply for the complete benefit of EVE. Can't have it all one way.
Ganking will still occur even with a small improvement to the pocket and is already out by orders of numbers anyhow. The small additions wont really be so much of and added incentive imho.
Bounty Hunting for CSM7 |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
Tactical Narcotics Team
709
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Posted - 2012.06.16 08:50:00 -
[39] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Danika Princip wrote:
Stop dancing around the questions and actually answer this one. Why only tech, why not the other t2 materials?
(See above, explains reasoning) The proposals are for possibilities for technetium rewards from "salvaging", a task associated with specialised techniques to find viable components from ship wrecks. Its added playability associated with being able to extract the technetium from ships with this profession. Shoe on the other foot: Please provide reasoning as to why only moon goo (as current) should be the only methodology of aquiring technetium. I'm expecting ring mining to expand on possibilities of sharing out the technetium supply so why not add small benefit possibilites to salvaging at the same time in a similar manner? Technetium isn't the only type of moongoo out there. You keep limiting it to just technetium. Are the other forms of moon goo used in Tech 2 ship construction to allow it to be salvaged as components from wrecks. Is it therefore relevant to my suggestions, or are you simply missunderstanding and taking things out of context again?
Yes, the other forms of moongoo ARE used in T2 ship production. I don't know the specifics because I can't be bothered to go back through the five or so steps for each and every T2 component involved in building the damn thing, but there are a lot of them in there. |
Grumpy Owly
Paladin Philanthropists
634
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 08:59:00 -
[40] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Danika Princip wrote:
Stop dancing around the questions and actually answer this one. Why only tech, why not the other t2 materials?
(See above, explains reasoning) The proposals are for possibilities for technetium rewards from "salvaging", a task associated with specialised techniques to find viable components from ship wrecks. Its added playability associated with being able to extract the technetium from ships with this profession. Shoe on the other foot: Please provide reasoning as to why only moon goo (as current) should be the only methodology of aquiring technetium. I'm expecting ring mining to expand on possibilities of sharing out the technetium supply so why not add small benefit possibilites to salvaging at the same time in a similar manner? Technetium isn't the only type of moongoo out there. You keep limiting it to just technetium. Are the other forms of moon goo used in Tech 2 ship construction to allow it to be salvaged as components from wrecks. Is it therefore relevant to my suggestions, or are you simply missunderstanding and taking things out of context again? Yes, the other forms of moongoo ARE used in T2 ship production. I don't know the specifics because I can't be bothered to go back through the five or so steps for each and every T2 component involved in building the damn thing, but there are a lot of them in there.
Fair enough, include those as well then. Sorry I had assumed Technetium was a term used to qualify the overall range of tech associated with reaction productions for T2 tech materials from Moon goo. (Thats partially ignorance of null perhaps and the assumptions made from how others talk about it, happy to be educated)
Is there a better term to apply however for the complete range of moon goo Technology applied in T2 ship production?
Bounty Hunting for CSM7 |
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Lord Zim
798
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 08:59:00 -
[41] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:Are the other forms of moon goo used in Tech 2 ship construction to allow it to be salvaged as components from wrecks. Is it therefore relevant to my suggestions, or are you simply missunderstanding and taking things out of context again?
You say "again". I don't think you should.
Converting a covetor to a hulk takes construction blocks, a covetor, crystalline carbonide armor plates, fusion reactor units, ion thrusters, magnetometric sensor clusters, morphite, oscillator capacitor unit, photon microprocessor, pulse shield emitter and R.A.M.- Starship Tech.
Crystalline carbonite armor plates requires crystalline carbonite and sylramic fibers, which in turn requires carbon polymers, crystallite alloy, ceramic powder and hexite, which in turn requires hydrocarbons, silicates, cobalt, cadmium, silicates, evaporite deposits, platinum and chromium.
I could go on, but suffice it to say, surprisingly, technetium isn't the only raw moon material used in making a hulk |
Grumpy Owly
Paladin Philanthropists
634
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 09:11:00 -
[42] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Are the other forms of moon goo used in Tech 2 ship construction to allow it to be salvaged as components from wrecks. Is it therefore relevant to my suggestions, or are you simply missunderstanding and taking things out of context again? You say "again". I don't think you should. Converting a covetor to a hulk takes construction blocks, a covetor, crystalline carbonide armor plates, fusion reactor units, ion thrusters, magnetometric sensor clusters, morphite, oscillator capacitor unit, photon microprocessor, pulse shield emitter and R.A.M.- Starship Tech. Crystalline carbonite armor plates requires crystalline carbonite and sylramic fibers, which in turn requires carbon polymers, crystallite alloy, ceramic powder and hexite, which in turn requires hydrocarbons, silicates, cobalt, cadmium, silicates, evaporite deposits, platinum and chromium. I could go on, but suffice it to say, surprisingly, technetium isn't the only raw moon material used in making a hulk
Please see comments above, my understanding of the terms might be significant here in the gravity towards the focus on technetium. Mainly due to how people have talked about it politically before and also the emphasis people have made in T2 ship production.
My concerns however for this are to consider the salvaging of the full range of T2 tech products able to be made from Moon goo. Please advise which term and if so, that obviously changes my view on the considerations of OTEC monopoly with all of T2 production. Though i imagine it will be relevant to certain products or materials?
However apologies Zim, i can see now why you were being discretely concerned on my focus with Technetium.
Bounty Hunting for CSM7 |
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