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Raimo
Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.11.26 18:31:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Greg6
I will say this; at the current levels I personally know of more than one member of FW who are doing just about nothing but running FW missions and making *billions* of iks per day of game play (call it about 4 to 6 hours.)
Now that's a slight exaggeration I'd say. Dunno what it was like right after 1.5 though, I wasn't in FW then. Join RvB!
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.26 19:29:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Muad' Dib Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 26/11/2009 00:43:18
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Unfortunately the sad truth is that casual player will always suffer due to these "powergamers" which find quick and dirty ways to run these missions many times more efficiently than you can and pull countless billions out of it.
The "But I want to cherrypick" is a weak excuse, if that is valid, I want "Recon" in highsec all day long as well, and the ability to skip all vs. faction and vs. drones missions as well because they lower my average income.
We need to look at the big picture and not our personal interests. I agree that the missions in their old form are not worth it, hence I lobbied strongly for reducing the standing penalty and rake up the rewards. But CCP went completely to the other extreme, and removed all penalties alltogether which was extremely silly and stupid, as every game designer should have been able to predict what would happen next.
You are a massive idiot - RL gender notwitstanding. Powergamers exist only because of 2 possibilities; either free time or spotting a loophole - and in the case of FW missions ... both, which are quickly closed anyway, so this loophole will be closed no doubt.
As for keeping neutrals out of missions, go back to WoW.
Actually she had a valid point, since the powergamers brought down the amount (autobalance) and value (by flooding the market with LP store items) of LPs and therefore ruin the game for regular or casual players. You lack the intelligence to understand that though. What you call loopholes were intentionally created game features and nothing has been fixed quickly, people gathered millions of LP in short time, i know someone who made over 50 billion isk and still have ****load of LP left for the Dominion items.
Things like this kill the game, someone who is mining in empire for his 20mil/hour with the potential risk to lose his ship to just-for-fun-suicide-gankers or someone who trained months for his mission battleships and invested hundreds of millions isk in it in order to do 40 mil/hour with regular missions, will feel snubbed by this imbalance, as that 150mil/hour FW missions (with not much risk and need of skills) make him feel like an idiot and his time and efforts worthless.
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Raimo
Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.11.26 19:37:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Things like this kill the game, someone who is mining in empire for his 20mil/hour with the potential risk to lose his ship to just-for-fun-suicide-gankers or someone who trained months for his mission battleships and invested hundreds of millions isk in it in order to do 40 mil/hour with regular missions, will feel snubbed by this imbalance, as that 150mil/hour FW missions (with not much risk and need of skills) make him feel like an idiot and his time and efforts worthless.
Rightly so (the feeling idiot bit), for not leaving hisec to do them. Now it's out in the opinion and that "regular joe" can rage at CCP that he cannot join the fun :P
Also disagree on the skills needed bit, at least for gallente the SP/ LP relation is somewhat similar than in regular lvl4's comparatively. I need a good-ish PVP fit to put it another way, with high skills. (or low skills and pimping but that would be folly in low sec) Join RvB!
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.26 19:41:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Garr Anders
For clarity lets gather some facts:
- Generate up to 40 million isk per hour and account
- require decent skills for that
- require a faction battleship or modules (as otherwise it's less than 40 mil/h
- LvL4 mission: You only can decline missions every 4 hours without a standig loss
- *edit*LvL4 missoin: Can be done in an NPC Corp safe from wardecs but you will have to pay 11% tax to NPCs.
vs
- Factional warfare: missions net you up to 150 mil/hour or even more.
- Factional warfare: missions don't require high skills, do them with a trash alt
- Factional warfare: missions don't require an expensive ship, one mission pays you more than your mission ship costs
Fixed that for you.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.11.26 20:39:00 -
[95]
Basically it comes down to feeling stupid for playing the game for fun and in a way it was probably meant to be played, instead of investing the same time trying to figure out ways to break and exploit it.
It's not only a matter of can or can't. It's primarily a matter of want and don't want.
Hell yeah, let's all join the loophole-bandwagon, feel 1337 and see how long the game will handle it.. No, not happening, at least not for me. But I might very well lose interest if that kind of gameplay is being encouraged.
___________________________________
Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
Garr Anders
Minmatar The Red Circle Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.26 21:07:00 -
[96]
.... but... but ... but ... I dont mind CCP lowering the reward.
I just want to pick the target system it is in.
Mal: Hell, this job I would pull for free. Zoe: Then can I have your share? Mal: No! Zoe: If you die can I have your share? Mal: Yes.
They can lower the reward done to pre boost, or 1% of it, I dont mind. I just want to pick the target system! ----- Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.11.26 21:49:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Zeba on 26/11/2009 21:50:32
Originally by: Tarron Sarek Basically it comes down to feeling stupid for playing the game for fun and in a way it was probably meant to be played, instead of investing the same time trying to figure out ways to break and exploit it.
Ummm no one is exploiting anything as its all condoned by ccp and anyone at all in the entire eve universe can join in on the lp wagon if they have a 0.5 standing to the faction of their choice. Now what *might* be changed is the dial a mission mechanic as it seems to have achieved its goal of getting people interested in running fw missions and making sure there will be plenty of the new navy hulls for people to buy at whatever price the market demands on launch. So as long as the only thing ccp changes about fw missions is dial a mission then players will still be able to run them in whatever fashion they run them now just at a reduced lp rate because you won't be able to cherry pick for distance and rewards.
As it stands a competant player can easily pull in 100k+lp in an hour of play which beats down normal level 5 mission rewards with a spike studded titanium bat due to the rather large difference in lp store prices so did you guys really think it would last forever? Only a few days left so hurry and get those last few mil of lp stored away before ccp closes down the gravy train.
Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.27 00:35:00 -
[98]
There are no exploits that arent allowed by ccp. The entire universe as u say can joini i. The getting people to run fw missions is one thing. But yes ensuring if i want to buy a navy domi for example is im not paying more than a pirate version is the key. Just increase the risk rewards a bit on some.
But yes grind those missions now get it all ocked up and give us versions post dominion Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Garr Anders
Minmatar The Red Circle Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.27 11:19:00 -
[99]
No reply or statement from CCP regarding their intent or opinion? ----- Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.27 11:29:00 -
[100]
No time to reply as they sort thro the statements to make after the patch, the intent as is in the dominion buil at the moment on sisi
Bring on planetary interaction Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
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Deva Blackfire
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.11.27 11:45:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Garr Anders No reply or statement from CCP regarding their intent or opinion?
Same here. Id like to hear some info regarding this.
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Greg6
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Posted - 2009.11.27 17:53:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Greg6
I will say this; at the current levels I personally know of more than one member of FW who are doing just about nothing but running FW missions and making *billions* of iks per day of game play (call it about 4 to 6 hours.)
Now that's a slight exaggeration I'd say. Dunno what it was like right after 1.5 though, I wasn't in FW then.
Actually, no, it's not. And that's rather the point. :)
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Raimo
Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.11.27 18:21:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Greg6
Actually, no, it's not. And that's rather the point. :)
Well, I only have knowledge of the last few weeks, and based on that you have a significant "s" too much there IMHO. Like I said, I dunno what it was before the autoleveling and market saturation started bringing rewards down. (if that indeed happened)
- But even with my estimated income (somewhere around a billion ISK per 4-6 hours I'd think is pretty common) it is probably the most profitable NPC killing activity around, maybe deserving of a nerf :P
And indeed we would all get mostly back to PVP, about time! Join RvB!
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Sarahs labrat
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Posted - 2009.11.27 18:39:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Greg6
Actually, no, it's not. And that's rather the point. :)
Well, I only have knowledge of the last few weeks, and based on that you have a significant "s" too much there IMHO. Like I said, I dunno what it was before the autoleveling and market saturation started bringing rewards down. (if that indeed happened)
- But even with my estimated income (somewhere around a billion ISK per 4-6 hours I'd think is pretty common) it is probably the most profitable NPC killing activity around, maybe deserving of a nerf :P
And indeed we would all get mostly back to PVP, about time!
Where do u get your figure of 1b isk per 4-6hrs? How can you define these LP v's Isk??
Not saying it isnt true but find it hard to work out how much my XXM LP are worth or going to be worth? I have been working on 500m per 150k (BS pre order prices)
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Raimo
Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.11.27 18:42:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Sarahs labrat
Originally by: Raimo
Originally by: Greg6
Actually, no, it's not. And that's rather the point. :)
Well, I only have knowledge of the last few weeks, and based on that you have a significant "s" too much there IMHO. Like I said, I dunno what it was before the autoleveling and market saturation started bringing rewards down. (if that indeed happened)
- But even with my estimated income (somewhere around a billion ISK per 4-6 hours I'd think is pretty common) it is probably the most profitable NPC killing activity around, maybe deserving of a nerf :P
And indeed we would all get mostly back to PVP, about time!
Where do u get your figure of 1b isk per 4-6hrs? How can you define these LP v's Isk??
Not saying it isnt true but find it hard to work out how much my XXM LP are worth or going to be worth? I have been working on 500m per 150k (BS pre order prices)
It's 450m per 150k LP ish (minus the expenses of the T1 hull and the nexus chip)
I've already sold most of my LP, for a bit better ISK/LP ratio for the most part ;)
I lose if LP value skyrockets postpatch but them are the breaks, I'm ok with that gamble... Join RvB!
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Sarahs labrat
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Posted - 2009.11.27 19:04:00 -
[106]
Well it must be been in Minni FW and getting the 'hardest' (a reletivly loose term I know :P) rats/missions to kill I am only getting 150/200k per 6 hours which equals to 100m isk per hour, that is it based on 500m a BS.
I personally think the price will crash post patch down to about 300/400m for a navy BS with the market flooded. BUT I think the price will steadly increase as CCP nerf the 'select a mission' and the availablity of the T1 Navy BS (as they are only avalilable through FW agents) declines as people will not bother flying 20 jumps for a reletivly small amount of LP the price of a Navy T1 BS will climb and imho overtake the prices of pirate BS which will/are alot easier to get.
Are the FW missions easy - Yes Are the rewards vs LP to high - Yes Are we going to flood the market with T1 Navy BS - Yes Is nerfing the select a mission to much of a smack with a nerf bat - Yes Should they relook at number of LP points per mission or the numer of LP per item - YES
IMHO it is a very easy way for CCP to get ALOT of a certain set of Items into the market quickly before taking away/vastly reducing the ease at which you can then gain them by doing the one thing which will certainly stop people doing them.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.27 19:09:00 -
[107]
So at 450m per 150k LP adding the expenses of the t1 hull and chip we are looking at 700m at the very lease for theese tier 1 navy ships which really bang for buck u can get a fully fitted t1 bs with faction gear or even t1 and overheat for much less.
Mmm ah well sales will be low. Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Garr Anders
Minmatar The Red Circle Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.28 11:06:00 -
[108]
Well since most minni boats are easily outperformed by others, the rarity of having one and selling one will keep em high I think.
To cash in on ISK you ll likely have to go for caldari, gallente or FOTM amarr.
Anyway CCP feedback ? Anything ? ----- Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.11.28 23:58:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Patch Notes Declining Factional Warfare missions more often than once every 4 hours will now (once again) incur a standings loss, as with all other type of agent missions.
Better get those last few mil of dial a mission lp whilst you can.
Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
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Muad' Dib
Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc Beyond Virginity
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Posted - 2009.11.29 00:07:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Muad' Dib Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 26/11/2009 00:43:18
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Unfortunately the sad truth is that casual player will always suffer due to these "powergamers" which find quick and dirty ways to run these missions many times more efficiently than you can and pull countless billions out of it.
The "But I want to cherrypick" is a weak excuse, if that is valid, I want "Recon" in highsec all day long as well, and the ability to skip all vs. faction and vs. drones missions as well because they lower my average income.
We need to look at the big picture and not our personal interests. I agree that the missions in their old form are not worth it, hence I lobbied strongly for reducing the standing penalty and rake up the rewards. But CCP went completely to the other extreme, and removed all penalties alltogether which was extremely silly and stupid, as every game designer should have been able to predict what would happen next.
You are a massive idiot - RL gender notwitstanding. Powergamers exist only because of 2 possibilities; either free time or spotting a loophole - and in the case of FW missions ... both, which are quickly closed anyway, so this loophole will be closed no doubt.
As for keeping neutrals out of missions, go back to WoW.
Actually she had a valid point, since the powergamers brought down the amount (autobalance) and value (by flooding the market with LP store items) of LPs and therefore ruin the game for regular or casual players. You lack the intelligence to understand that though. What you call loopholes were intentionally created game features and nothing has been fixed quickly, people gathered millions of LP in short time, i know someone who made over 50 billion isk and still have ****load of LP left for the Dominion items.
Things like this kill the game, someone who is mining in empire for his 20mil/hour with the potential risk to lose his ship to just-for-fun-suicide-gankers or someone who trained months for his mission battleships and invested hundreds of millions isk in it in order to do 40 mil/hour with regular missions, will feel snubbed by this imbalance, as that 150mil/hour FW missions (with not much risk and need of skills) make him feel like an idiot and his time and efforts worthless.
The persons whom you mention are individuals who like to stay in safe and cozy places with little risk. You do not have to be suicided as a miner, you do not have to be suicided as mission runner, provided you know what your doing - here's a hint ... don't run missions in Motsu/Dodi and don't invest over 500m isk in droppable mods. With FW missions there was no-one to hold their hands, no guide to check. PERVS started doing them first and from their hints on these forums roughly 6 weeks ago everyone else learned.
They are anything but safe - beacon lights up and ceptors do sometimes hunt you, and to top that to really do them fast you need 2 reasonably well specced chars.
Things that may kill a game like EVE will be the ideea of 'instanced dungeons', which is something that most long-term EVE players hate and loath. --- I smack just for myself. Allow faction cap boosters to be traded via normal market ! |
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Naye Nathaniel
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Posted - 2009.11.29 00:30:00 -
[111]
Haha really nice :] <3 CCP u screwed faction warfare missions :) Now i'ts better to farm lv 4 missions in Motsu for twice more LP needed than fly 15j in one way to kill about 20 NPCs and being targeted by WF in your "cheap" ship ;) But hey its cool also, after a week, when everyone will spend theirs LP, the faction Navy Scorp would be worth like 2b and CNR for 1b or even 2b also xD CCP u made my day!
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.11.29 00:41:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Naye Nathaniel Haha really nice :] <3 CCP u screwed faction warfare missions :) Now i'ts better to farm lv 4 missions in Motsu for twice more LP needed than fly 15j in one way to kill about 20 NPCs and being targeted by WF in your "cheap" ship ;) But hey its cool also, after a week, when everyone will spend theirs LP, the faction Navy Scorp would be worth like 2b and CNR for 1b or even 2b also xD CCP u made my day!
The only thing getting nerfed is dial a mission and nothing else. You will still be able to make enough lp in a single playing session to get several cruisers and frigates or even a bs or two if you put in a few hours in a row. But what I'm curious about is if after your mission is spawned and you then get camped out of it can you then quit the mission without a standing hit? Important question really.
Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
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Naye Nathaniel
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Posted - 2009.11.29 01:01:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Naye Nathaniel Haha really nice :] <3 CCP u screwed faction warfare missions :) Now i'ts better to farm lv 4 missions in Motsu for twice more LP needed than fly 15j in one way to kill about 20 NPCs and being targeted by WF in your "cheap" ship ;) But hey its cool also, after a week, when everyone will spend theirs LP, the faction Navy Scorp would be worth like 2b and CNR for 1b or even 2b also xD CCP u made my day!
The only thing getting nerfed is dial a mission and nothing else. You will still be able to make enough lp in a single playing session to get several cruisers and frigates or even a bs or two if you put in a few hours in a row. But what I'm curious about is if after your mission is spawned and you then get camped out of it can you then quit the mission without a standing hit? Important question really.
I think not, cause thats gonna be the same like now, means u can accept and decline mission and pick new one ;) until ull get new one, and believe me, now its a 8-10 hours to get a faction BS for yourself, thats why CCP made a Navy SCorp for 150k of LPS + chip, because no one would "farm" or even "earn" LPs from FW missions. Would u fly 15 jumps for a crapy mission for 8k LP [lv 4] and waste about hour to get a 2 mln reward for it? I doubt it.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.11.29 02:11:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Naye Nathaniel I think not, cause thats gonna be the same like now, means u can accept and decline mission and pick new one ;)
Well considering you would have to fly all the way to the system the mission is in to spawn the mission so you could then refuse it to try to replicate the old cherry pick system it would not do you any good as you would still have to fly all the way back to the agent just for a remote chance at a closer mission.
Originally by: Naye Nathaniel until ull get new one, and believe me, now its a 8-10 hours to get a faction BS for yourself, thats why CCP made a Navy SCorp for 150k of LPS + chip, because no one would "farm" or even "earn" LPs from FW missions. Would u fly 15 jumps for a crapy mission for 8k LP [lv 4] and waste about hour to get a 2 mln reward for it? I doubt it.
Nothing is changing with fw missions so you will still be able to earn a faction bs or a small handfull of frigates and cruisers in just a few missions even with a few low earners thrown into the mix. Also you are only getting 8k lp and 2 mil rewards for a fw level 4 mission? Do you have any social skills trained at all or are you using an agent with negative quality? You should be getting at least 2~3x that amount per mission.
Originally by: CCP Casqade The forum does not represent anywhere close to 90% of the users. In fact it represents a clear minority of them.
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Garr Anders
Minmatar The Red Circle Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.29 10:45:00 -
[115]
I have social skills but not to max (IIRC 4) but the best I ever get is a 11K LP on a lvl4 missions form the agent in abudban as minni pilot fighting for the minni side.
I havent seen anything about lowering the reward, though they might keep that in the "exploits have been fixed and eve is better now" thing hidden.
If they havent done that, I still be able to "farm" minni FW missions for 5-10k but have to fly to random systems.
OTOH since caldari/gallente can not "pick" their 25-30K LP per missions only anymore but have to do the "lower ones" in between as well, it seems.
Balance anyone?
----- Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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Deva Blackfire
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.11.29 12:16:00 -
[116]
Hm best matari agent is in Hadozeko and thats quite far from frontlines :X
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.29 16:28:00 -
[117]
This agent needs to be moved to the front lines for balance reasons Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Naye Nathaniel
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Posted - 2009.11.29 16:45:00 -
[118]
Well for best mission I can get like 11,5k LP, with social skills lv 3 and standing 10.0. But "poor" missions are like 8k LP, and take down like 5 objects, during a heavy fire. If they want to take us that missions declaining system, then ok, but then let it be as normal mission, WITHOUT an OVERVIEW beacon for anyone..
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.29 17:55:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
CCP is well aware that you guys DONT do 20 jumps but have alts in all constellations to blitz any mission that ends up in their sector.
ORLY?
The person who accepted the mission has to spawn it in the target system. You can have an alt sitting 20 jumps away, but it can't do crap unless you physically get your butt out there and cause the mission to appear.
It's amazing to me that everyone who complains about hisec mission runners complains about the losec mission runners as well.
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Naye Nathaniel
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Posted - 2009.11.29 18:07:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
CCP is well aware that you guys DONT do 20 jumps but have alts in all constellations to blitz any mission that ends up in their sector.
ORLY?
The person who accepted the mission has to spawn it in the target system. You can have an alt sitting 20 jumps away, but it can't do crap unless you physically get your butt out there and cause the mission to appear.
It's amazing to me that everyone who complains about hisec mission runners complains about the losec mission runners as well.
But best is complaining about missions that no one of them ever done and see how "hard" it can be ;)
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