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Tom Hanks
Amarria Auxilia
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Posted - 2009.11.27 22:37:00 -
[31]
I guess now any pilot is guilty until proven innocent. No charges, no evidence, just the gut feeling of a pilot is reason enough to blow away someone these days. Gee what a beacon of truth and glory you are...
Caldari Racial Purity
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Vlad Cetes
Caldari H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.11.27 22:51:00 -
[32]
Ah, Merdaneth. It seems you have seen the wisdom of NBSI and the inherent failure of NRDS. It is time for you to embrace the truth, and leave behind your false ways. Come join the true crusade, that to exterminate Goonswarm.
I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature. |
Invelious
Amarr Deus Imperiosus Acies
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Posted - 2009.11.28 00:19:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Vlad Cetes Ah, Merdaneth. It seems you have seen the wisdom of NBSI and the inherent failure of NRDS. It is time for you to embrace the truth, and leave behind your false ways. Come join the true crusade, that to exterminate Goonswarm.
That exact idealogy got your sacrilege destroyed last night Vlad. Next time, when you ask me not to shoot you, dont go shooting my guys right after.
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Vlad Cetes
Caldari H A V O C Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.11.28 00:46:00 -
[34]
A tactical error on my part, combined with a failure to activate overheat on my repairers for the last cycle before I could dock.
((Drunk pvp is bad m'kay))
I do not see why man should not be just as cruel as nature. |
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.28 02:57:00 -
[35]
I note that PIE command officers believe there was enough proof to adjust the standings. That is a matter for them naturally. I believe in people operating their standings/RoE regime as they see fit, even where I differ with them.
Given this, however, I think Merdaneth's attempt earlier on this thread to suggest that the Star Fraction would set people red without clear evidence to justify it, merely because ChipMo asked why Merdaneth did not present the evidence he had amassed to his superior officers, is rather rum. It was already rather a peculiar attempt to side-smear as I cannot understand why one can have enough proof in one's mind to open fire, yet not have enough proof to bring a case to one's superiors.
Nonetheless, for the record, I can state that the Star Fraction do not set people red at the request of our pilots without clear evidence of hostile action or intent to commit hostile action towards the Star Fraction.
As to the action taken by Merdaneth, I will give my personal opinion, as he asks people at large about it.
First, if Merdaneth could not fully satisfy himself at the time that the pilot in question was hostile, it was wrong of him on an individual basis to carry out the act. As I understand it, Merdaneth had satisfied himself as to this, so his act was not wrong in terms of the personal justification for it. But this ignores Merdaneth's freely-entered-into obligations and so is not enough for a full assessment.
Second, if Merdaneth had freely given undertakings to the association he belongs to, that is PIE, not to unilaterally open fire on neutrals without seeking authority from officers in situations not involving self-defence and situations covered by PIE RoE...
Originally by: "Remarks on PIE RoE by a PIE Director"
Whilst PIE does operate an NRDS policy, individual pilots are allowed to excercise their initiative and fire upon non-red vessels under certain circumstances.
Examples of this include self-defence, the defence of an ally, and the removal of ships believed to be acting in the support of an enemy. Clearly, in circumstances such as these it is not always practical to await for a director to enact a standings change before taking action.
...and this act breached those undertakings, then it is wrong on the basis that it is wrong to break one's word. This is a lesser wrong if Merdaneth himself truly believed the violence to be justified.
Third, an overarching view must include whether or not this violence really was justified, despite Merdaneth's beliefs and irrespective of undertakings given. This is a very hard thing to judge as none of us are perfect. No hard and fast rule is possible. Loosely, one can say that a true wrong is often such that 'one knows it when one sees it'. Here, I am not quite prepared to say that it is so clear but it is certainly difficult for me to see what immediate danger the pilot posed to Merdaneth. An interceptor should outclass a covert ops frigate and, with Merdaneth in a Crusader, I believe this norm would be the case here. My feeling is that Merdaneth had not only come to his view regarding this pilot before now but he could have stayed his hand and sought guidance from superiors even on this occasion. I feel the justification for acting at that time was fairly low.
In the end, I can only say what I would for myself, or another Star Fraction pilot, and that I would certainly view it as wrong in terms of breaking RoE and wrong in terms of justification for the act there and then.
For the record, I cannot regard this act as piracy. It seems much more akin to an act of war, a misguided and unjustified one perhaps, but nevertheless an act of war and not piracy.
The key question of course is whether or not Merdaneth would act similarly in future with regard to a pilot about which he had formed the same view? An important question the answer to which should breach no protocols as far as I can tell.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
The Cosmopolite
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.28 03:17:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Riso Makaan
Originally by: Jade Constantine
...and Star Fraction's more principled rules of engagement... ...and Star Fractions Rules of Engagement...
Rules of engagement? Principles? Miss Jade, perhaps you have forgotten, in your long relationship with the Minmatar, that you run an ANARCHIST orginisation. Rules of engagement, morality and principles are for us cultured folk that belong to these neccecary, neat little entities called EMPIRES. One of which, despite how you might delude yourself, the Minmatar are too.
As has been pointed out more times than I can now easily count, the practice of philosophical and political anarchism is in no way in contradiction with maintaining principles, rules, morality, ethics, organisation and much else besides, including, I may say a sense of culture and basic courtesy.
The Cosmopolite
The Star Fraction Communications Portal |
Stratio
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.28 08:18:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Invelious Once you enter any warzone location, any neutral that is not spoken for by any of your allies, should be pressumed as a spy or associate of the enemy.
Is it then not better to have clearly designated warzone locations where NBSI is known to be in effect? At least then genuine neutrals know when they are safe from you and when they are not. _____________________
For Tribe and Honour! |
Alica Wildfire
Minmatar Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2009.11.28 11:27:00 -
[38]
The thing about principles is that you have to respect them even if they bring momentarily great disadvantages for you. And I admit that I do not follow a philosophy of that extreme.
So I do understand the decision to shoot a neutral in some circumstances. For example not long ago I met a pirate on patrol with a wing of very young pilots at my side. The pirate was not yet rated an outlaw but is status was near that threshold.
If I let him attack and destroy one of my wingman I would have sacrificed the whole fleet because without full strength we were not able to fight that pirate. So I ordered to attack him, for the situation was that he was jumping on us anyway and tried to find the weakest target.
This is a situation that I as a convinced existentialist would say is valid to overwrite the ethics of not engaging neutrals. And it is a situation that was even more "right" to open fire than in that famous Minmatar existentialistic lyric "Killing a Khanid" that some of you might know, especially in the Gallentean original. Funny that Minmatar poetry sometimes is written in Gallente. But never mind.
But I never opened fire on Amon Xeno, who is a well known neutral that is fighting on the side of Amarr Militia. Only when that character actually gets red by remote repairing he is becoming a valid target. And of cause if I am ordered to attack by the fleet commander I usually obey the command disregarding if the target is valid or not. Because you chose freely to follow a fleet-commander and follow his orders, respect his decisions or you don't and then you don't fly with him.
So. I would not have fired on that special target. Especially if I only suspect a target to be valid and it is not in a situation of preventive self-defence like in my situation with the fight against the not yet outlawed pirate.
And still I do not think that I am an extremist of firing only on RED targets for the idea of existentialism teaches that every ideal can be overwritten by an other in certain situations. And that the only one who can tell us if it is right or wrong to do something is our conscience. Not a god, not a law. Life is much more complicated than any fixed set of rules can flawless express.
This doesn't make me a nihilist of cause who thinks that there is no right or wrong at all. But it is a much more realistic approach than to think in absolute states of right or wrong. Every right or wrong is in reality a scale of grey if you try to see the whole situation.
And you always hurt one ideal if you follow an other in some way.
Merdaneth is a warrior that I respect very well, but I think he should think about his set of values. He is even more going to be an existentialist than I am with this attack and I think if he is, I ask myself why the hell is he then fighting me? Fighting us, the Minmatar, that just stand for this:
There is no god. There is no just one truth.
And if he really is thinking that his attack is wrong he should show it to himself by doing something like a ordeal. Something that will hurt himself in his pride and that shows not just everybody but especially himself that he really regrets what he was doing.
But I am not his judge. He is his own. And he should act accordingly. -- FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.28 12:18:00 -
[39]
As has become clear from several comments, pod pilots seem to distinguish between two types of neutrals, I'll call them unregistered hostiles and genuine neutrals. Unregistered hostiles are pilots that desire to attack you or otherwise do you harm, possibly by aiding others but are not yet formally declared hostile by available standings databases. Genuine neutrals do not wish to do you any harm.
The problem is centered on the fact that genuine neutrals can appear suspicious, and unregistered hostiles can appear completely benign. Organizations have different procedures by which they promote a neutral to the status of hostile. Some of them require extensive evidence and diplomacy, others merely require the whim of the CEO.
An example: Ushra'Khan shoots all neutrals in their home territory because they believe that because neutrals have to cross a dangerous stretch of territory only unregistered hostiles would risk (or even survive) the journey. Hence the neutral arriving in their space is evidence enough, unless they receive evidence to the contrary: NBSI.
I have done my best to confirm or deny ms. Sej Jamira's neutrality:
- I have made careful observations about ms. Jamira's activity and movement, correlating it with other pod pilot movement - I have asked allied pilots about their experiences - I have scoured public kill databases for entries related to her - I have asked ms. Jamira for an explanation - I have asked Star Fraction members for an explanation
The first three points all indicated she was closely allied to the Star Fraction, more specifically the Jericho Fraction. The last two were inconclusive, both SF pilots and ms. Jamira declined to expand upon their relationship and still do refuse to admit or deny any relationship even though I asked it here repeatedly. It is my belief that SF and ms. Jamira decline to comment on this matter because they desire to engender a certain level of paranoia among their opponents. We can see SF members hinting that this is indeed the case in this thread.
If Star Fraction insists on waging warfare through indirect means and employing unregistered hostiles posing as genuine neutrals, then they indeed endorse a climate where suspicious genuine neutrals are mistaken for unregistered hostiles. They indeed try and create a climate where genuine neutrals are inadvertently shot.
In effect, they are conducting a policy specifically aimed at seducing opponents to commit war crimes, upon which they then can cry 'foul' once a genuine crime of war is committed: entrapment. This is of course typical example of SF hypocrisy. It would be like Amarr printing and spreading a heretical text while at the same time claiming reading the text is a sin and will be punished while also trying to hide the fact that they are spreading these heretical text.
Perhaps I can relate this to my own slave investigation as well. By setting up a buy order for slaves I can be accused of entrapment. I am creating a demand and thereby try to seduce people to violate their principles. However, there are two essential differences here:
1. I personally believe that slave trading is allowable, and hence my seduction of others is not hypocritical. 2. My entrapment purposes are clear for all to see, I do not try to hide it by working through intermediaries and neutrals, I freely and openly admit it. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar DAEDALUS X The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.28 16:03:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 28/11/2009 16:03:41 sounds like Merdaneth was kill horny and after he popped a neutral he preemptively made this farce of a post incase some one caught him doing it.
Merdaneth, you are a dishonorable cull.
I had a similar issue yesterday. I had an overview glitch that showed an Amarr militia Prophecy as -10 to Jericho (I.E. set red), I chased him to a planet pounded him into half armor; his prophecy was no match for my Loki so it was easy meat.
A fellow Fraction pilot warped in, to help if it was a trap (it wasnÆt) and noted this pilotÆs standing wasnÆt -10 to us. I stopped shooting the prophecy (though the prophecy kept attacking me, desperate to try and escape) and I checked the standings list in the Concord Database and I was wrong. I refreshed my screen (all while fighting with this prophecy, holding him down but not shooting him anymore) he wasnÆt -10 to the Fraction.
So I let him go. I apologized and offered to pay for his armor repair cost and over heat damage cost. He declined, said it wasnÆt a problem and that he had though it may have been an error since Star Fraction are NRDS. He left like a good chap, no hard feelings. He knows Star Fraction has values, if he ever reads this he will know that Merdaneth does not.
Comparably, If Merdaneth even suspects a pilot may be vaguely related to an enemy force he will attack ignoring NRDS. I knew this prophecy pilot is a threat, his small corp works for the 24th crusade, and yet he is not red and so was not destroyed.
So Merdaneth, as of yesterday I am morally superior to you. |
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.28 17:28:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 28/11/2009 16:03:41 sounds like Merdaneth was kill horny and after he popped a neutral he preemptively made this farce of a post incase some one caught him doing it.
Merdaneth, you are a dishonorable cull.
I had a similar issue yesterday. I had an overview glitch that showed an Amarr militia Prophecy as -10 to Jericho (I.E. set red), I chased him to a planet pounded him into half armor; his prophecy was no match for my Loki so it was easy meat.
A fellow Fraction pilot warped in, to help if it was a trap (it wasnÆt) and noted this pilotÆs standing wasnÆt -10 to us. I stopped shooting the prophecy (though the prophecy kept attacking me, desperate to try and escape) and I checked the standings list in the Concord Database and I was wrong. I refreshed my screen (all while fighting with this prophecy, holding him down but not shooting him anymore) he wasnÆt -10 to the Fraction.
So I let him go. I apologized and offered to pay for his armor repair cost and over heat damage cost. He declined, said it wasnÆt a problem and that he had though it may have been an error since Star Fraction are NRDS. He left like a good chap, no hard feelings. He knows Star Fraction has values, if he ever reads this he will know that Merdaneth does not.
Comparably, If Merdaneth even suspects a pilot may be vaguely related to an enemy force he will attack ignoring NRDS. I knew this prophecy pilot is a threat, his small corp works for the 24th crusade, and yet he is not red and so was not destroyed.
So Merdaneth, as of yesterday I am morally superior to you.
And this is how Star Fraction pilots honour our Rules of Engagement and NRDS ideology. A lesson you could learn about principle Merdaneth.
True Knowledge |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.28 17:50:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
And this is how Star Fraction pilots honour our Rules of Engagement and NRDS ideology. A
So are there any circumstances at all where your pilots are allowed to fire on a vessel that isn't red?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.28 18:21:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Rodj Blake So are there any circumstances at all where your pilots are allowed to fire on a vessel that isn't red?
Of course. Self defense is one such circumstance. If a previously neutral vessel aggresses one of our ships then Free Captains are in their rights to fire back. They will be expected to provide aggression logs for our internal coms and diplomacy record and the hostile will be set -10 as soon as possible. Its a clear, principled and transparent mechanism that leaves everyone knowing where they stand.
Unlike your partial NBSI "pilot may shoot at neutrals if they really want to" practise illustrated in this thread.
True Knowledge |
Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.28 18:29:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Rodj Blake So are there any circumstances at all where your pilots are allowed to fire on a vessel that isn't red?
Of course. Self defense is one such circumstance. If a previously neutral vessel aggresses one of our ships then Free Captains are in their rights to fire back. They will be expected to provide aggression logs for our internal coms and diplomacy record and the hostile will be set -10 as soon as possible. Its a clear, principled and transparent mechanism that leaves everyone knowing where they stand.
Unlike your partial NBSI "pilot may shoot at neutrals if they really want to" practise illustrated in this thread.
Except that our policy isn't as you describe. I outline our policy here
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.28 18:33:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Rodj Blake Except that our policy isn't as you describe. I outline our policy here
I dismissed your earlier post as mere excuse and wordy evasion. I see no reason to reassess that classification now.
True Knowledge |
Frygok
Minmatar The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.28 21:59:00 -
[46]
I find it interesting that during another discussion here on GalNet on whether or not a (former) member of Ushra'Khan doing an act of piracy, several members of the PIE corporation, including the "sinner", Mr. Merdaneth were very vocal in telling Ushra'Khan how to act towards neutrals in their own house. I am talking about communications such as this:http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1208891&page=2#34
Quote: Mr. Sapphrine, I am not claiming UK are pirates. In fact, I find the UK position quite sensible. NRDS vs. NBSI is not a non-piracy vs. piracy debate. Piracy is about personal profit by any means. UK is not about that. NRDS is about trusting people that have not yet proven themselves friendly, NBSI is about not trusting people that have not yet proven themselves friendly. I fully understand that UK is not in a position to give neutrals the benefit of the doubt. I fully understand UK is not in the position the investigate every unknown flying around in Providence and confirming if he really a supporter of slavery or just a bystander. You have more important goals, goals that at this point in time does not allow you to trust others unless they have proven friendly, vouched for, or are otherwise directly aiding in some UK goal. However, don't come on the IGS pretending you are an NRDS alliance. At this moment, you are at war, and you are not trusting people unless they proven themselves friendly. That's NBSI. Pragmatism before principle has ever been the Matari way.
Does this not mean, by Mr. Merdaneths own words, that he did an act of NBSI? He talks about "observations", and the lack of response from said individual, yet I have yet to see any factual evidence of this to be the case. Or could the Ushra'Khan, according to PIE logic, simply have stated that the involved Ushra'Khan pilot had made observations showing that the victim had affilitations with enemies of Ushra'Khan, and then the wider EVE community would have accepted it? Sounds very convinient.
Another important quote from Mr. Merdaneth in the same GalNet communication here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1208891&page=3#67
Quote: If your ideals don't start at home, they are not ideals. Ideals are not overruled by matters of practicality. What are your ideals worth if they can and will be overruled by practicality on a regular basis even in your own home? Ideals are the things you cling to even when its not practical.
Perhaps Mr. Merdaneth and other PIE members should reflect a bit on practicality vs. ideals when shooting neutrals themselves (however much circumstantial evidence you might have) while accusing others of not abiding by the Rules of Engagement set up.
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.29 01:03:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Frygok
Perhaps Mr. Merdaneth and other PIE members should reflect a bit on practicality vs. ideals when shooting neutrals themselves (however much circumstantial evidence you might have) while accusing others of not abiding by the Rules of Engagement set up.
I've broken the PIE ROE, that is clear.
I don't believe I've engaged a genuine neutral, I am still convinced I shot down an unregistered hostile.
Of course, Star Fraction could easily have come forward by now and denied any relation between them and ms. Jamira and by doing so practically proving I've shot a genuine neutral. They certainly have sufficient motive to do so, considering that they have posted here in this very thread attempting to smear my name and reputation. Mr. Frygrok, I ask you and any other reader, why don't they just deny any SF involvement with ms. Jamira? ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Eran Mintor
Minmatar Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2009.11.29 01:07:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Merdaneth Mr. Frygrok, I ask you and any other reader, why don't they just deny any SF involvement with ms. Jamira?
Because you wouldn't listen anyways; it's a waste of breath. You already put yourself in the position of judge and jury. Why do you ask for information from SF now, after you already destroyed suspected neutral? Isn't that a rather backwards way of going about things? ------------------------------------------------
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.29 01:20:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Merdaneth I don't believe I've engaged a genuine neutral, I am still convinced I shot down an unregistered hostile.
These are your make-believe classifications to excuse your deed. End of the day you shot down a neutral-flagged pilot who hadn't fired on you. Call that an "unregistered hostile" all you like but the deed remains a profoundly NBSI one.
Quote: Of course, Star Fraction could easily have come forward by now and denied any relation between them and ms. Jamira and by doing so practically proving I've shot a genuine neutral.
We owe you precisely nothing and have absolutely no interest in discussing any of our relations with 3rd parties with you. It quite simply is none of your business.
Quote: ... They certainly have sufficient motive to do so, considering that they have posted here in this very thread attempting to smear my name and reputation. Mr. Frygrok, I ask you and any other reader, why don't they just deny any SF involvement with ms. Jamira?
We don't trust you. We don't trust your word. We don't trust your motives. And by and large we treat you as one might treat a particularly noxious breed of biting insect. Why you imagine we'd be prepared to play your silly little games and help excuse you from the burden of dragging the PIE Inc. reputation into the NBSI dirt besides No.Mercy I really can't imagine.
You shot a neutral. Rather than be apologetic you are trying to make propaganda mileage out of the deed. I guess that makes you somewhat worse than an NBSI pirate really.
True Knowledge |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar DAEDALUS X The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.29 01:43:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Merdaneth
I've broken the PIE ROE, that is clear.
so are you trying to make things harder for PIE leadership?
If this were an accident, that would be one thing. Mistakes happen in the crazed heat of battle. But proud and willful public defiance of a corp policyàwhy are you in PIE if you canÆt adhere to their rules of engagement?
you do a disservice to PIE's reputation to post this all here and flaunt your weak moral fiber.
Were I in PIEÆs place you would be packing it on the Interbus and lucky to not have a boot print in your tailpipe after being so smug about breaking your word (you agree to PIEÆs RoE upon membership).
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Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.29 02:38:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss If this were an accident, that would be one thing. Mistakes happen in the crazed heat of battle. But proud and willful public defiance of a corp policyàwhy are you in PIE if you canÆt adhere to their rules of engagement?[/quote
Calling it an accident would be a lie mr. Bliss.
Calling it not breaking the ROE would be a lie mr. Bliss.
Calling it public defiance would be a lie mr. Bliss.
I don't do lies.
Shooting the vessel was not a mistake, not filing the proper request before shooting it was the mistake.
As admiral Blake pointed out, there are circumstances in which a PIE pilot can make a decision to bypass the paperwork. He still needs to inform his superiors of this field decision of course. They will decide if a pilot has made a correct decision in the field or not. If my field decision had indeed be found completely without basis I have no doubt that I would have been demoted at best. Admiral Blake clearly indicated that I made a correct field decision and removed a threat to the Amarr Empire from the field.
The fact that my superiors had to review my field decision because I had not filed the proper paperwork in advance is my mistake. And I'm fairly strict at interpreting these things.
How about this telling silence about the employment status of ms. Sej Jamira and her relation to the Star Fraction? Perhaps you could convince ms. Constantine to enlighten the public?
I also find it slightly amusing that SF members come forward with such a strict and legalistic view of following rules of engagement and similar principles. As a strict legalist myself, I certainly appreciate this approach, I just believe that even a cursory investigation of many Star Fraction members will result in their removal from the Fraction if we are to really believe you and ms. Constantine.
Can I have your word that you will demand and expect any member of the Star Fraction that makes a mistake and does not follow through on what they promised or stated earlier will be removed?
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.29 03:35:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 29/11/2009 03:35:41
Originally by: Merdaneth How about this telling silence about the employment status of ms. Sej Jamira and her relation to the Star Fraction? Perhaps you could convince ms. Constantine to enlighten the public?
I have told you its none of your business. Its as simple as that.
Quote: As a strict legalist myself, I certainly appreciate this approach
Thats clearly a lie since you ignored your own organizations pretty lacklustre rules of engagement in this matter.
Quote: Can I have your word that you will demand and expect any member of the Star Fraction that makes a mistake and does not follow through on what they promised or stated earlier will be removed?
You pathetic slithering worm! As if any member of the Star Fraction would be accountable to your deceitful slurs. You are in no position to accuse anybody else of wrongdoing.
You come to this summit with a fake apology and packload of lies and evasion with a foolish story of how you regret destroying a neutral ship just to make a spurious rhetorical point to distract from the negative press on the No.Mercy affair?
How simple things must seem in the PIE cloister when you dream up these "masterplans"
True Knowledge |
Stratio
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.29 07:59:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Merdaneth An example: Ushra'Khan shoots all neutrals in their home territory because they believe that because neutrals have to cross a dangerous stretch of territory only unregistered hostiles would risk (or even survive) the journey. Hence the neutral arriving in their space is evidence enough, unless they receive evidence to the contrary: NBSI.
That is one consideration which has been mentioned, yes, though I would point out once again the we were NBSI in Catch and Providence long before we moved to Catch and we were operating NRDS in Curse even when we lived there. _____________________
For Tribe and Honour! |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.29 09:54:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Jade Constantine You shot a neutral.
Let us examine this claim.
If you know someone is a murderer, can you truthfully state he is innocent without lying? If another imprisons someone you know is a murderer can you reasonably state that an innocent has been imprisoned without lying?
I believe if you know someone is a murderer and you state he's innocent you are lying. If you know Sej Jamira is hostile to PIE but you continue to say she's a neutral you are lying.
Originally by: Jade Constantine I am simply repeating what you have told us.
Classic. If I were to post 'Anarchist philosopy is the only true way' without adding a quotation tag or prefacing it with 'ms. Constantine said', I would be posting my own opinion. Are you now claiming one can post statements from others without referring to them as such and except people to read them as not your own opinion? Your excuses are getting weaker and weaker.
Originally by: Jade Constantine Any further wriggling on your part just makes you look increasing foolish at this point.
It is rather evident that you are the one wriggling here ms. Constantine.
Calling someone you know is a murderer innocent and then subsequently claiming you are merely repeating the words of another and you don't really think that? Show a little backbone ms. Constantine. If I can confess my mistakes, surely you can?
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.29 15:39:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 29/11/2009 15:44:07
Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: Jade Constantine You shot a neutral.
Let us examine this claim.
Its gone from an "admission of guilt" to a mere "claim" then?
So the statement you made at the beginning of this thread was a clear lie then. You've stepped back from admitting your guilt and are now pretending you didn't actually shoot a neutral? Its getting difficult to follow the twisting of your logic and sometimes I get the impression the only person you lose yourself completely in the labyrinthe of petty lies you weave in these threads is yourself.
You have admitted to shooting a neutral.
I am 100% certain that had the circumstances been reversed and I had been in your position being shadowed by a "suspicious" covert ops pilot I wouldn't have fired regardless of my suspicions because by the circumstances of the engagement the pilot was flagged neutral to me.
Hence I can say without hesitation yes, you shot a neutral. In your place I would have proved better than you and not ignored my personal and organization standards and claimed a kill because "I wanted to".
Quote: I believe if you know someone is a murderer and you state he's innocent you *are* lying. If you know Sej Jamira is hostile to PIE but you continue to say she's a neutral you are lying.
I believe you are wrong. Unless you had that pilot flagged -10 to you or you were responding to a direct attack on your ship then that pilot was neutral and you had no ethical right engaging. This is firm point of principle to the Star Fraction and I will not compromise on it. In my eyes you wrongfully engaged a neutral. You destroyed said neutral and committed an act of NBSI-level piracy.
The fact a PIE pilot is able to do this and remain unpunished is simply one more rusty-panel on the golden armour and step down into NBSI hypocrisy by your organization.
True Knowledge |
Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.29 16:06:00 -
[56]
Interesting reading, that's for sure.
Did you enjoy it, Merdaneth?
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
Tomahawk Bliss
Minmatar DAEDALUS X The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.29 17:54:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Tomahawk Bliss on 29/11/2009 17:56:19 really Merdaneth, you are babbling in circles.
you are a deceitful weasel with weak morals and a petty bitter need to try and undermined The Star Fraction when the focus is on Garst Tyrell and (to a lesser extent) failures like yourself.
If you didn't violate PIE's RoE; then PIE RoE is weak at best and a farce at worst.
-or-
If you did violate PIE's RoE; then you are weak at best and a farce at worst.
good job with your propaganda there Merdaneth. Painting PIE with a tar brush in the hopes some flecks may stick to Star Fraction.
at least I know for certain that now I am morally superior to you, capable of keeping my word to abide by my alliance's RoE and am willing to make reparations if an error is made.
Ultimately this is what you have accomplished in explaining:
Star Fraction's NRDS RoE > PIE's "when convenient" NRDS RoE
what a sad for the Amarr when you started to try your hand at Hardin's art.
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.29 18:47:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Archbishop on 29/11/2009 18:50:07
Given the reluctance of the Star Fraction to come out and confirm or deny the accusation and the ensuing hostility on the part of CEO Jade Constantine one can only conclude there is a causal relationship between the two. I find it ironic that while insisting we release our internal report on the No.Mercy incident she would turn around and deny even a basic "yes or no" question. I'd call it hypocritical but I think "business as usual" for the Star Fraction better defines it.
While I certainly don't condone shooting neutrals I also don't condone using civilian unregistered pilots in a corp capacity. Commander Merdaneth has publically admitted his error, he has prayed for forgiveness and offered up repentence. I am willing to accept his apology for attacking this apparent Star Fraction co-conspirator in her probe fitted anathema and move on from it. As a single incident over a six year history I don't tend to look at it as anything but an anomoly. Certainly a less frequent occurance then the years and years of Star Fraction history of operating with impunity from pirates obviously in some twisted quid pro quo peace.
Archbishop
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.29 19:07:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Archbishop Given the reluctance of the Star Fraction to come out and confirm or deny the accusation and the ensuing hostility on the part of CEO Jade Constantine one can only conclude there is a causal relationship between the two.
You deceitful dog! The only thing you can honestly conclude is that by the Standards of the Star Fraction Merdaneth has shot a neutral and demonstrated NBSI principles (principles that have not been condemned by PIE Inc.)
Quote: I find it ironic that while insisting we release our internal report on the No.Mercy incident she would turn around and deny even a basic "yes or no" question.
The only "yes / not" question I have been asked is whether I consider the pilot in question was neutral. I have answered that by the standards of the Star Fraction the pilot was neutral and our pilots would not have engaged this target.
Quote: While I certainly don't condone shooting neutrals..
Well clearly you do. You are condoning Merdaneth's actions just as in refusing to condemn Garst Tyrell's piracy you are condoning his.
True Knowledge |
Vaarun
Amarr Imperio Obscura
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Posted - 2009.11.29 19:16:00 -
[60]
Sej Jamira I have long had listed as a Minmatar collaborator. She has deployed Combat scan probes in support in Minmatar operations and has surveyed systems which she clearly has no reason to and has done so to benefit the enemies of the Empire.
The "nuetrality" of any pilot goes deeper than some papers filed or boxes checked. Your intentions are delineated by your actions and can be judged by the observant pilot.
The unfortunate side effect of this is some pilots, of high moral caliber and sense of duty, may find bringing these pilots to justice. You act was not a sin against God or Empire, but mereley a violation of rules of conduct set forth by an entirty created by men, which the more unsavory of pilots use as a shield.
CONCORD may punish you, but CONCORD is not above the wishes of God and Empire. Still, you must endure their ire for your actions simply becasue they violated the letter of the agreement, though the offending pilot(Sej Jamira) has obviosly violated the spirit of them.
The pennace for CONCORD is satisfied, while sins against God and Empire are not.
You acted justly, Merdaneth.
Fly safe.
"To bring order to chaos, one must bring chaos to its knees."
-Vaarun |
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