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Lenko Rock
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Posted - 2009.12.02 03:29:00 -
[1]
Hi guys.
I'm a newish player (had an account for years but have been off and on). Basically I was looking at the Minmatar Jaguar today and decided I wanted to pilot one. I'm not far off being able to and I think i have the supporting skills to make it effective.
Are assault ships designed for solo PvE missions? What is their mission level range? Are they worth using vs say a well fitted Drake or Raven? I'm a little confused over the roles of assault ships.
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FT Diomedes
Gallente Factio Paucorum
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Posted - 2009.12.02 04:29:00 -
[2]
Assault ships can be effective at PvE. They are good in Level 2 missions. They can also be used for ratting with some success. They can also make good tanks for high level complexes.
Their real role, however, is PvP. ...this doesn't even seem to be a regular case of rats fleeing the sinking ship. Seems more like the rats are on fire, the ship is on fire, and the sea is full of drunk Russians. - Jacob Etienne |
Berendas
Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.12.02 04:51:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Berendas on 02/12/2009 04:51:47
Originally by: FT Diomedes Their real role, however, is PvP.
Too bad they are fairly broken atm, wish they were better
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Zaius Caine
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Posted - 2009.12.02 05:35:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Zaius Caine on 02/12/2009 05:36:00 Been flying assault frigs a long time. You can run L2's with them but a T1 cruiser is going to be cheaper and better for that task.
When it comes to pvp, AF's can do fairly well. They make wonderful heavy tacklers in gangs and have the ability to escape crappy situations when flying solo. Your target selection when solo is pretty slim, however, limited to other frigs and some T1 cruisers usually(depending on what AF you are flying). No matter what job you are trying to do, there is almost always another ship that can do it better than an AF.
Cost is a concern when flying AFs of course. They are just way overpriced for what you can do with them. They really do need some kind of buff.
Having said all that, I can tell you that AFs are very fun to fly in spite of their costs and limitations.
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Number 17
Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
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Posted - 2009.12.02 08:53:00 -
[5]
Quote: but a T1 cruiser is going to be cheaper and better for that task
you can place that on everything you plan to do with an AF.
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc
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Posted - 2009.12.02 08:59:00 -
[6]
AF as a specialisation are a bit of a dead end, right now they are without role or focus. Thing is ofcourse that if you want to fly one "just because" then by all mean go have fun but if you're asking if it's a sound choice for a new player with (possibly) low/no income, little experience and actually little USE for the ship then no, it's not a good thing to go for.
For PVP you're much cheaper/better off for now flying cruisers and focussing your SP to get into BC's properly, same thing for PVE really. In short they're very expensive ships which you can't insure that still pop easily and need a ton of TLC in the form of expensive mods to work... in certain situations. Apart from that T2 ships don't really work until you have proper SP in all the areas needed and KNOW what you're doing.
My advise; stay well clear till you've gathered enough wealth, experience, SP and a reason to actually fly one.
----------- I think, therefore I'm single. New projectile damage PDF Alliance creation service |
Proxyyyy
Caldari The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.12.02 10:47:00 -
[7]
There is a prevalent opinion on the eve o forums that af's are some how broken! I dont find that to be the case. For fleet purposes they are not the most cost affective ship, in most cases its prolly better to fly a destroyer over an af.
The thrasher has around the same hp as a wolf, same dps, can destroy all af's fitted correctly, but only realy lacks the sig of a assault frigate. After the speed nerf i realy felt that assault ships were over-powered and that is still somewhat the case. Theyre abillity to take down cruisers and bc's is no joke!If you are gunna use them, solo/pvp is where they shine imo.
For missions i dont think its a big deal, but a cruiser would provided more dps no?
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Quick Edge
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Posted - 2009.12.02 16:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Proxyyyy Theyre abillity to take down cruisers and bc's is no joke!
An AF will never be able to kill a cruiser or bc that has a web and/or med. neut. They will just die in flames. The only reason to fly them currently is the "fun factor".
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Wayward Daughter
Swords of the Righteous
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Posted - 2009.12.02 16:32:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Wayward Daughter on 02/12/2009 16:33:20
Originally by: Lenko Rock Hi guys.
I'm a newish player (had an account for years but have been off and on). Basically I was looking at the Minmatar Jaguar today and decided I wanted to pilot one. I'm not far off being able to and I think i have the supporting skills to make it effective.
Are assault ships designed for solo PvE missions? What is their mission level range? Are they worth using vs say a well fitted Drake or Raven? I'm a little confused over the roles of assault ships.
Assault Ships seem to be outclassed in all of the things they can do by other classes of ships; their only strength, that I can see, is their versatility to do all of these things that other ship classes can do, as a second-rate substitute.
Let's take my personal favorite, the Jaguar:
- It can serve as a gank/tackle frigate. So can a Taranis, or other "Gank" Interceptor; an Interceptor, because of its greater speed, is both more likely to get to the target in time to catch it, and to survive the encounter if the enemy throws out light drones.
- It can serve as anti-tackle support. So can a Thrasher, or any other Destroyer; a Destroyer, because of its inherent range bonus, can pick off targets more safely and is more likely to survive the encounter because it can maintain range.
- It can contribute DPS. So can a tech 1 cruiser; the cruiser will provide more damage with a significantly cheaper hull and will be able to take a lot more damage.
So why pick an Assault Ship at all? In each of the above cases, the specialized ships are better for the specific instance described; but, they fatally falter if you mix up the situations. For example, a tech 1 cruiser would be hard-pressed to serve as a tackler (with perhaps the exception of the Thorax); its greater mass, lower base speed and greatly diminished agility would allow a target to much more easily escape it. As another example, an Interceptor cannot project nearly as much damage as an assault ship (with perhaps the exception of the Taranis), and cannot survive nearly as much damage taken. This is all nit-picky details, because the main reason to fly an assault ship--or to do anything in EVE--is to have fun!
>> Gunnlaug Hildrvarr, >> Loyal Servant of the Holy Amarr Empire
Seeking Custom Signature |
Caldari Citizen4714
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Posted - 2009.12.02 17:04:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Wayward Daughter Edited by: Wayward Daughter on 02/12/2009 16:33:20
Originally by: Lenko Rock Hi guys.
I'm a newish player (had an account for years but have been off and on). Basically I was looking at the Minmatar Jaguar today and decided I wanted to pilot one. I'm not far off being able to and I think i have the supporting skills to make it effective.
Are assault ships designed for solo PvE missions? What is their mission level range? Are they worth using vs say a well fitted Drake or Raven? I'm a little confused over the roles of assault ships.
Assault Ships seem to be outclassed in all of the things they can do by other classes of ships; their only strength, that I can see, is their versatility to do all of these things that other ship classes can do, as a second-rate substitute.
Let's take my personal favorite, the Jaguar:
- It can serve as a gank/tackle frigate. So can a Taranis, or other "Gank" Interceptor; an Interceptor, because of its greater speed, is both more likely to get to the target in time to catch it, and to survive the encounter if the enemy throws out light drones.
- It can serve as anti-tackle support. So can a Thrasher, or any other Destroyer; a Destroyer, because of its inherent range bonus, can pick off targets more safely and is more likely to survive the encounter because it can maintain range.
- It can contribute DPS. So can a tech 1 cruiser; the cruiser will provide more damage with a significantly cheaper hull and will be able to take a lot more damage.
So why pick an Assault Ship at all? In each of the above cases, the specialized ships are better for the specific instance described; but, they fatally falter if you mix up the situations. For example, a tech 1 cruiser would be hard-pressed to serve as a tackler (with perhaps the exception of the Thorax); its greater mass, lower base speed and greatly diminished agility would allow a target to much more easily escape it. As another example, an Interceptor cannot project nearly as much damage as an assault ship (with perhaps the exception of the Taranis), and cannot survive nearly as much damage taken. This is all nit-picky details, because the main reason to fly an assault ship--or to do anything in EVE--is to have fun!
The one thing I can think of they have over a t1 cruiser is virtual immunity to BS class ships (once you deal with drones) that aren't packing a neut (more common that you'd imagine) and a lot better bomb resistance.
I'm not saying that actually makes them better, but they are quantifiable advantages. - Support DISBANDING the Alliance CCP Renamed at the Alliance's Request |
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Proxyyyy
Caldari The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.12.02 17:25:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Quick Edge
Originally by: Proxyyyy Theyre abillity to take down cruisers and bc's is no joke!
An AF will never be able to kill a cruiser or bc that has a web and/or med. neut. They will just die in flames. The only reason to fly them currently is the "fun factor".
I know a few pilots that would say diffrent! Neuts only truly hurt active tanked af's. A jag with an MSE has next to no cap use not to mention capless weapons, and since af's killing cruisers/bc's happen on the reg in eve, there is no need for me to argue with you.
There is an argument of theyre price to preformance atleast when compared to destroyers like the thrasher. I know for fact AF's excel at solo pvp and are hard to kill even in my rupture with duell small neuts which is ideal for the task btw. If a ship has a med neut a small nos will counter it, due to the shorter duration. Mind you they may not be able to activate theyre tank but they will have tackle even if they dont have a nos...
Im just telling you this from experience! and my corp is kinda known for doing things like that...
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.02 17:49:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Quick Edge
Originally by: Proxyyyy Theyre abillity to take down cruisers and bc's is no joke!
An AF will never be able to kill a cruiser or bc that has a web and/or med. neut. They will just die in flames. The only reason to fly them currently is the "fun factor".
I have yet to meet a cruiser that can kill my current retribution. Over 1 year and still zapping away at things it realy shouldnt be picking on
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Zaius Caine
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Posted - 2009.12.02 18:35:00 -
[13]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Quick Edge
Originally by: Proxyyyy Theyre abillity to take down cruisers and bc's is no joke!
An AF will never be able to kill a cruiser or bc that has a web and/or med. neut. They will just die in flames. The only reason to fly them currently is the "fun factor".
I have yet to meet a cruiser that can kill my current retribution. Over 1 year and still zapping away at things it realy shouldnt be picking on
So you are saying you dont fight cruisers with webs or neuts or AMLs, basically. Cruisers that have any those things will smoke any Retri. Also, if you are running a Retri, one would have to assume you are not alone since they cant pack any tackle.
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VanNostrum
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.12.02 18:47:00 -
[14]
I do some L4s with my Retri/Wolf
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.02 19:01:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Zaius Caine
So you are saying you dont fight cruisers with webs or neuts or AMLs, basically. Cruisers that have any those things will smoke any Retri. Also, if you are running a Retri, one would have to assume you are not alone since they cant pack any tackle.
I play with all of the above sometimes solo. Nothing like poping something before it realises having a single mid doesnt mean they are safe
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Quick Edge
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Posted - 2009.12.02 19:24:00 -
[16]
Ok wait just a sec. We have some people in here who are pretty much saying that they have no difficulty in effectively combating neut and web fit cruisers and BCs in an AF solo.
Put your feet up folks, the bull **** is getting pretty deep in here...
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Zaius Caine
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Posted - 2009.12.02 20:08:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Zaius Caine on 02/12/2009 20:10:50
Originally by: Quick Edge Put your feet up folks, the bull **** is getting pretty deep in here...
Exactly. Anyone who actually pvps knows the biggest weakness AFs have is neuts and webs. I can pilot every AF in game. I flew them exclusively for a very long time and Im accounted by my peers as being a master of that ship class. One thing Im always careful about is web/neut boats, they can ruin your day.
Thats not to say that some AFs cant beat the occasional cruiser, but cruisers should never be the primary prey of an AF. You will just end up getting melted.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.12.02 20:28:00 -
[18]
AFs don't need to fight in web/med neut range.
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Zaius Caine
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Posted - 2009.12.02 20:35:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden AFs don't need to fight in web/med neut range.
A few dont, most do.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.12.02 21:00:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Quick Edge Ok wait just a sec. We have some people in here who are pretty much saying that they have no difficulty in effectively combating neut and web fit cruisers and BCs in an AF solo.
To be fair, the Jaguar doesnt have much trouble with that, neuts wont really stop your web / scram and thats usually enough to keep a solid speed advantage and get under their guns even if you get webbed.
Though I'd not say its a trivial thing as you usually have drones on from the cruisers as well and they tend to be troublesome to shoot down without webbing them.
Its doable, but certainly not with every AF and not against every cruiser.
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2009.12.02 21:04:00 -
[21]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Zaius Caine
So you are saying you dont fight cruisers with webs or neuts or AMLs, basically. Cruisers that have any those things will smoke any Retri. Also, if you are running a Retri, one would have to assume you are not alone since they cant pack any tackle.
I play with all of the above sometimes solo. Nothing like poping something before it realises having a single mid doesnt mean they are safe
I don't get it. How do you tackle someone in a retribution? If you don't have a prop mod, they can just run out of your disruptor range and disengage. If you don't have a point, they can just warp away.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.02 21:09:00 -
[22]
Originally by: James Tritanius
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Zaius Caine
So you are saying you dont fight cruisers with webs or neuts or AMLs, basically. Cruisers that have any those things will smoke any Retri. Also, if you are running a Retri, one would have to assume you are not alone since they cant pack any tackle.
I play with all of the above sometimes solo. Nothing like poping something before it realises having a single mid doesnt mean they are safe
I don't get it. How do you tackle someone in a retribution? If you don't have a prop mod, they can just run out of your disruptor range and disengage. If you don't have a point, they can just warp away.
Tear their head off before they can tell their fingers to hit the runaway button.
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Quick Edge
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Posted - 2009.12.02 21:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: baltec1 Tear their head off before they can tell their fingers to hit the runaway button.
Riiiiight... good luck with all that, dude. That will only work on pvp newbs and some kind of horrible fail fits. Kudos.
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Proxyyyy
Caldari The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.12.02 21:53:00 -
[24]
Honestly this is what i hate about the eve o forums! Its very hard to be helpful to anyone because theyre is always a select few who dont know what they are talking about and or havent flown the ships they comment on. Theyre are things others in this game have done and are doing on a regular basis which may be news to you...
I have been hit by a mid neut before and while it would knock out an active tanked ships ability to rep! and hold tackle at the same time! Its still pretty damn easy to hold a scram and web alone. You may not have the cap to also run your tank, but that doesnt matter if you are passivly tanked...
There was one sitution i was in where my bro was like yo warp to the excel gate lets see if this curse follows. Was in a harpy at the time but i had a small nos fitted so i was like nice plan. My bro was in a standard small neutron vex with a small neut fitted. long story short the curse pilot warped right on top of me! I scram and web him. My buddy warps in! This dude already had hobs on me which is a no no for the harpy! I can passivly tank hobs all day its my highest resist, not to mention neuts. Finaly he gets drones off me when he realizes im not going below 70% shields! He sends drones on the vexor and caps him, but his scram and web was also still active. I was able to keep him tackled no prob but i was only able to activate 2 - 3 guns at a time under cap pressure! Soo my bro blew up and i got final blow on the curse... Vexor for Curse good trade?
Med neuts can 2 volly the cap of an active tanked ship no problem! But if its passive armour buffer or shield buffer, a frigate will not have any trouble keeping tackle active. WIth the addition of a small/nos which is a direct counter to med neuts its even poissible to activate your tank between Med/neut cycles which are like 12 seconds...
In the sitution with the curse if i was active tanked i would have died pretty easy! Even cap boosters are a some what good counter for med neuts in my experience.
About the ritribution; It pretty much flys like a coecer and 2 - 4 vollies frigs before they can react which it happens so fast in most cases you would not even miss a warp disruptor!
And pretty much what the bydi member said.... YARHH!!!
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Zaius Caine
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Posted - 2009.12.02 22:14:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Proxyyyy Honestly this is what i hate about the eve o forums! Its very hard to be helpful to anyone because theyre is always a select few who dont know what they are talking about and or havent flown the ships they comment on. Theyre are things others in this game have done and are doing on a regular basis which may be news to you...
I have been hit by a mid neut before and while it would knock out an active tanked ships ability to rep! and hold tackle at the same time! Its still pretty damn easy to hold a scram and web alone. You may not have the cap to also run your tank, but that doesnt matter if you are passivly tanked...
There was one sitution i was in where my bro was like yo warp to the excel gate lets see if this curse follows. Was in a harpy at the time but i had a small nos fitted so i was like nice plan. My bro was in a standard small neutron vex with a small neut fitted. long story short the curse pilot warped right on top of me! I scram and web him. My buddy warps in! This dude already had hobs on me which is a no no for the harpy! I can passivly tank hobs all day its my highest resist, not to mention neuts. Finaly he gets drones off me when he realizes im not going below 70% shields! He sends drones on the vexor and caps him, but his scram and web was also still active. I was able to keep him tackled no prob but i was only able to activate 2 - 3 guns at a time under cap pressure! Soo my bro blew up and i got final blow on the curse... Vexor for Curse good trade?
Med neuts can 2 volly the cap of an active tanked ship no problem! But if its passive armour buffer or shield buffer, a frigate will not have any trouble keeping tackle active. WIth the addition of a small/nos which is a direct counter to med neuts its even poissible to activate your tank between Med/neut cycles which are like 12 seconds...
In the sitution with the curse if i was active tanked i would have died pretty easy! Even cap boosters are a some what good counter for med neuts in my experience.
About the ritribution; It pretty much flys like a coecer and 2 - 4 vollies frigs before they can react which it happens so fast in most cases you would not even miss a warp disruptor!
And pretty much what the bydi member said.... YARHH!!!
Great wall of text, I didnt read much of it. What i did read had only to do with neuts with no mention of webs at all. Also everything you talk about is purely situational. You can go on-and-on as much as you want but you cannot change the fact that a neut/web cruiser will beat an AF 95% of the time.
Tell you what, I get off work in about 2 hours. Lets meet up in game. You bring any AF you want and I'll bring a T1 cruiser and we'll get this sorted out once and for all.
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Proxyyyy
Caldari The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.12.02 22:34:00 -
[26]
Oh please! so you want to duel? = / Pfft i would comment on how dueling is not pvp but that is for another topic! After that one im not gunna take you seriously! Go to the tuskers killboards and look at kills its all the proof that is needed...
http://tuskers.killmail.org/?a=search
basically you want me to go in a arena where you know what im bringing, setup a ship only to counter that, which is unlike actual pvp where its generaly dynamic. = / If you would like kills linked that i have personaly done to prove my point just ask! Other than that you can duel your corp mates champ, cause you seem to like to throw around the words like impossible becuase you can or have never done it!
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.02 22:53:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Quick Edge
Originally by: baltec1 Tear their head off before they can tell their fingers to hit the runaway button.
Riiiiight... good luck with all that, dude. That will only work on pvp newbs and some kind of horrible fail fits. Kudos.
ever see a Ranis explode in two vollies? Its a wonderfull sight to behold and happens so fast they dont have time to react.
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Tray LiSans
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Posted - 2009.12.02 23:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: baltec1 ever see a Ranis explode in two vollies? Its a wonderfull sight to behold and happens so fast they dont have time to react.
A taranis is not a cruiser or a battlecruiser. Any inty pilot that engages an AF is asking to lose his ship. So you managed to kill a terrible interceptor pilot, huzzah. That has nothing to do with the previous comments.
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.02 23:40:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tray LiSans
Originally by: baltec1 ever see a Ranis explode in two vollies? Its a wonderfull sight to behold and happens so fast they dont have time to react.
A taranis is not a cruiser or a battlecruiser. Any inty pilot that engages an AF is asking to lose his ship. So you managed to kill a terrible interceptor pilot, huzzah. That has nothing to do with the previous comments.
Glass cannon omens die fast as does the rax variation, even the zealots go down easy once tackled. You would be surprised at how many cruiser pilots do not fit a neut and those who do fall fowl of my neut that provides enough power to keep me going long enough and webs are not "the end" as I dont use a MWD. TBH the more who think the retri is harmless the better it is for me.
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slightly sillydude
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Posted - 2009.12.03 00:24:00 -
[30]
They don't need a role. They don't need to do anything special. All they need is the fourth bonus and a drastic price reduction. they need to be like 6-7 million and then they will be a fun ship to fly.
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