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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.12.03 00:48:00 -
[1]
The NPCs in FW need a defined role. Regardless of what role you envision for them, they fail to fulfill it.
1) NPCs of different factions add very different difficulty levels to complexes.
The most apparent imbalance is with Caldari NPCs compared to other factions. They have enormous range, the missiles can not be speed tanked even close to as easily as the turrets of the other factions, and the ewar they employ (ECM) is extremely strong in interfering with PvP, especially compared to the ewar of other factions. But this also applies to other factions. Minmatar NPCs also utilize missiles, making those complexes difficult to speed tank compared to, say, the Amarr complexes. Amarr TDs interfere with combat much more than the painters of the Minmatar. Gallente dampeners are annoying only if you have a long-range fit, a single frigate can easily keep them occupied as they have no range. Etc.
Regardless what the role of NPCs in FW is - and especially if that role is to provide something to do while there are no hostile players around, as CCP stated - the NPCs of the different factions should be equal in danger level.
Proposed solution: Replace all stats of the FW complex NPCs with a single set of stats that is identical for all four factions. The only difference between the factions should be the model they use, and at most the damage type they are weak against (and even that is unnecessary).
2) NPCs care too much about standings
The FW complex NPCs will not shoot you if you have high standings with their faction, even if you are in a hostile militia. In the actual primary hostile militia, this is somewhat balanced by gaining standings fast for capturing complex, and thus losing enemy faction standing fast, so you can not do this for long. But if you are in the "off militia" (e.g. Caldari for Minmatar, Amarr for Gallente, etc.), you do not gain or lose standings for plexing.
This leads to the situation where the most effective offensive plexing is done by a rookie alt with sufficient standings in the "off militia", as they can run offensive plexes without NPC interference, i.e. a t1 frigate is enough for even unrestricted complexes; and as the "off" militia do not get any standings from plexing, so do not lose that ability.
I do not think that this is the way FW should be played, so this game mechanic has to change.
Proposed solution: Have FW complex NPCs shoot members of hostile militias regardless of their standings. Alternatively, to diminish the ability of third parties to interfere, have FW complex NPCs shoot everyone who is not part of their associated militia or the allied militia. (If you need an RP justification: Hell, you are trespassing on a very important military installation, even if you're blue, GTFO! And yes, I'm in one of those 3rd parties, so I'll hate that change, but it's a lot better than the current situation.)
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Z0D
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Posted - 2009.12.03 01:03:00 -
[2]
First part has already been raised by Erik Finnegan in CSM3 and will be fixed.
Second part I agree with but I do think that allies should be able to capture eachother's plexes without being shot at by NPCs. Click below for my manifesto.
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.12.03 01:13:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 03/12/2009 01:13:43
Originally by: Z0D First part has already been raised by Erik Finnegan in CSM3 and will be fixed.
I must have missed that, sorry. For the curious, here is the link I found:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Factional_Warfare_-_NPC_Review
Originally by: Z0D Second part I agree with but I do think that allies should be able to capture eachother's plexes without being shot at by NPCs.
Oh, I surely did not intend to say that allied FW factions shouldn't be able to capture hostile plexes (e.g. Gallente should be able to capture Amarr complexes).
"3rd party" above refers to outside groups such us my alliance, who are working with a militia, but are not part of that militia.
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.12.03 13:30:00 -
[4]
Strongly supported. The current situation is just ridiculous. -- Gradient forum |
Insa Rexion
CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2009.12.03 15:21:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Insa Rexion on 03/12/2009 15:22:17 Edited by: Insa Rexion on 03/12/2009 15:21:59 Aaaaah so THAT's why I saw Damar hanging out with Amarr plexers
didn't know this was even possible, supported --------------------------------------------
DOMINION ! Welcome to Amarr Online the sequel, last buff was business, this time it's permanent |
Val Erian
Azure Horizon Federate Militia
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Posted - 2009.12.03 16:14:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Val Erian on 03/12/2009 16:18:34 Edited by: Val Erian on 03/12/2009 16:16:41 Standings has been issue since begining of FW.
Been used before to cap.fight in plexs by many. Me included.
Does need to be adressed.
Now tha tDamar/perv alts doing it on industrial scale in Minnmatar/Amarr space, look forward to lack of any meaning full plex warfare as is situation in Gal/Cal.
This is one reason why Mr. Damar was unsuitable as a CSM canidate.
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Nihil Magnus
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Posted - 2009.12.03 16:20:00 -
[7]
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Alica Wildfire
Federal Investigations Agency
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Posted - 2009.12.03 16:22:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Alica Wildfire on 03/12/2009 16:27:43 Strongly supported without further need to justify why. Not just broken. It's insane. And is currently exploited on an industrial level by said characters, this will break the -so far- fair and working Amarr-Minmatar factional warfare.
Act fast please. -- FREEDOM, PUNK & AUTOCANNONS
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Anewb N'eve
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Posted - 2009.12.03 16:29:00 -
[9]
supported
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Carib Devist
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Posted - 2009.12.03 16:37:00 -
[10]
Strongly supported. this is just a ridiculous.
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Garr Anders
The Red Circle Inc.
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Posted - 2009.12.03 16:43:00 -
[11]
Supported ----- Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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Isobel Mitar
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.12.03 17:26:00 -
[12]
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.12.03 17:42:00 -
[13]
Working as intended. (c) Ankhesentapemkah
Originally by: Sandslinger of CA
So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
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Damar Rocarion
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Posted - 2009.12.03 17:42:00 -
[14]
Fully supported.
And I know why this thread is here. It is because it is what we do in Matar space right now.
Now, let me state clearly. This tactic is incredibly lame, broken and stupid. And in fact I feel dirty for doing it.
However, according to CCP and ex-CSM members (Of ZoD's party) it is working as intended. We asked CCP two months ago if this is legit or if it's exploit. Answer was outright "No, go ahead".
Because we did not get our candidate into CSM who would have wanted to fix the issues (we dont belive Ankh's party would) we are simply going to make this issue so big and broken that CCP has to take action and correct the FW bugs.
Thank you.
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.12.03 18:12:00 -
[15]
Forgot to check the support box, oh well. Doing it now. Agreed, this is stupid mechanic and should be fixed.
I'd like to point out that Ankhesentapemkah or Eric didn't want to address this issue while Ankhesentapemkah was using it to capture Caldari plexes during her time in the Gallente Militia, double standards ftw I guess.
Originally by: Sandslinger of CA
So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
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Garr Anders
Minmatar The Red Circle Inc.
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Posted - 2009.12.03 18:27:00 -
[16]
TBH, this:
Originally by: Damar Rocarion
Because we did not get our candidate into CSM who would have wanted to fix the issues .. Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
.... that sounds a little bit like you are whining and
IMHO
Originally by: Damar Rocarion ...
And I know why this thread is here. It is because it is what we do in Matar space right now.
Now, let me state clearly. This tactic is incredibly lame, broken and stupid. And in fact I feel dirty for doing it. .... we are simply going to make this issue so big and broken that CCP has to take action and correct the FW bugs.
... makes you a hypocrite.
Now we all understand that that is broken but neither the amarr and the matari were using it (yet - that level) so although this was broken you could have said that both sides were on an unspoken mutual agreement to not abuse this and "try" to play the game as intend.
Now because it is broken for "your" war you have to spoil it for the others, who are trying to play the game as intended and out of their own will are not abusing the system?
I do appreciate your support, but TBH, I would feel more "supported" if you would stop doing that. ----- Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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Val Erian
Gallente Azure Horizon Federate Militia
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Posted - 2009.12.03 19:11:00 -
[17]
Because we did not get our candidate into CSM Quote: we will now grief you.
As I said this is why you lost CSM. People know what you are.
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sasawong
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Posted - 2009.12.03 19:21:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Damar Rocarion Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 03/12/2009 17:56:24 Fully supported.
Meh
Now, let me state clearly. This tactic is incredibly lame, broken and stupid. And in fact I feel dirty for doing it.
Signed
Because we did not get our candidate into CSM who would have wanted to fix the issues (we dont belive Ankh's party would since she was happy to use this tactic) we are simply going to make this issue so big and broken that CCP has to take action and correct the FW bugs.
I don`t know your real intention, but your act as Robin Hood of FW is laughable. The plexing side of FW is dead. HavnŠt sawn, that the Gallente recaptured a system after you have used the same "legal tactic" in their space. In any case, the damage is already too big. And obviously you do not want to stop. Thanks for the destruction of a game idea.
Sasawong
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Bad Messenger
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.12.03 19:29:00 -
[19]
Originally by: sasawong
Originally by: Damar Rocarion Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 03/12/2009 17:56:24 Fully supported.
Meh
Now, let me state clearly. This tactic is incredibly lame, broken and stupid. And in fact I feel dirty for doing it.
Signed
Because we did not get our candidate into CSM who would have wanted to fix the issues (we dont belive Ankh's party would since she was happy to use this tactic) we are simply going to make this issue so big and broken that CCP has to take action and correct the FW bugs.
I don`t know your real intention, but your act as Robin Hood of FW is laughable. The plexing side of FW is dead. HavnŠt sawn, that the Gallente recaptured a system after you have used the same "legal tactic" in their space. In any case, the damage is already too big. And obviously you do not want to stop. Thanks for the destruction of a game idea.
Sasawong
Caldari did not use this tactic to take gallente systems, but gallente used it against caldari at same thime when we took all systems.
So it can not be a problem, right?
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.12.03 20:10:00 -
[20]
The question whether a game mechanic is "good" or "bad" does not depend on whether it is "unbalancing enough", but on whether it encourages the kind of game play you want to have encouraged.
This game mechanic encourages the game play where you create an alt, get him high standings, and then run offensive plexes in very cheap ships, primarily avoiding PvP (as it's a very low-SP alt).
That does not seem like the kind of game play I want to encourage in FW.
Hence, this should be changed.
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No Mauk'Ob
Murientor Tribe
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Posted - 2009.12.03 20:46:00 -
[21]
stupidly broken mechanic is stupidly broken.
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Onnen Mentar
Murientor Tribe
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Posted - 2009.12.03 21:29:00 -
[22]
agreed, this needs to be fixed and with priority.. |
Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.03 22:22:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Damar Rocarion However, according to CCP and ex-CSM members (Of ZoD's party) it is working as intended. We asked CCP two months ago if this is exploit or bug. Answer was outright "No, go ahead".
That's the same response I got when I reported it as a potential problem, so don't twist it on me, I also reported it, right from the start, and got the same stupid reply by CCP as you did. "Yeah this is working as intended, go use it!"
But we all know that the only reason you use this bug is because your untrained alts can't deal with the strong Minmatar NPCs, like they could with the Gallente NPCs, and this is just a lame excuse. NPCs which you didn't consider a problem. You always whined about me using it, and now you use it yourself. You are a hypocrite and you ruin the spirit of FW, just like you did with your army of untrained alts and exploits to make timers count down magically on the Gallente/Caldari front.
Go ahead and abuse this. The sooner CCP will take away the broken plexing system completely, and reset the systems to their original state. ---
Click banner for info! |
Damar Rocarion
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Posted - 2009.12.03 22:41:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 03/12/2009 22:44:36
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah That's the same response I got when I reported it as a potential problem, so don't twist it on me, I also reported it, right from the start, and got the same stupid reply by CCP as you did. "Yeah this is working as intended, go use it!"
So, why didnt you had any interest to fix it during your term in CSM and quite contrary, constantly bragged about using the standings to capture plexes to me when we chased you away from plexes?
This is a legitimate question and i'm sure you would like to answer to all those concerned about faction war.
In fact, you said to me and PERVS "Working as intended" many times. So, now that we decided to do the same to show what is wrong in FW, it is bug/exploit in your opinion? Strange logic I must say.
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.12.03 22:46:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Unfamed II on 03/12/2009 22:47:29
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 03/12/2009 22:36:49
Originally by: Damar Rocarion However, according to CCP and ex-CSM members (Of ZoD's party) it is working as intended. We asked CCP two months ago if this is exploit or bug. Answer was outright "No, go ahead".
That's the same response I got when I reported it as a potential problem, so don't twist it on me, I also reported it, right from the start, and got the same stupid reply by CCP as you did. "Yeah this is working as intended, go use it!"
But didn't think it needed to be fixed? You could have done something good for FW for once. After all, you do TAKE CREDIT for fixing lag issues, having something to do with lolbalanced fw missions etc etc, surely you could have had this one fixed too? I guess you were too busy taking the caldari plexes.
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
But we all know that the only reason you use this bug is because your untrained alts can't deal with the strong Minmatar NPCs, like they could with the Gallente NPCs, and this is just a lame excuse.
Who is this mysterious we you speak of? We do this because CCP doesn't react to a few individuals taking advantage of this, we shall see if they care when a few more do it.
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
NPCs which you didn't consider a problem. You always whined about me using it, and now you use it yourself. You are a hypocrite and you ruin the spirit of FW, just like you did with your army of untrained alts and exploits to make timers count down magically on the Gallente/Caldari front.
And how are you not a hypocrite? I remember you bragging in local about this working as intended and so on. (well, you didn't deny being a hypocrite...)
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Go ahead and abuse this. The sooner CCP will take away the broken plexing system completely, and reset the systems to their original state.
Yes we will, just like you.
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Quote: I'd like to point out that Ankhesentapemkah or Eric didn't want to address this issue while Ankhesentapemkah was using it to capture Caldari plexes during her time in the Gallente Militia, double standards ftw I guess.
I'd like to point out that that was the only valid way and affordable for a solo player to deal with the Caldari NPCs as well as the alts and exploits used, which mr. Damar thinks are perfectly balanced and working as intended.
The only way? How does this justify you using it? How about making some friends? I heard it can help you a long way.
Originally by: Sandslinger of CA
So this wasn't a straightoff logoffski from our point of view, rather a tactical manoeuvre
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Garr Anders
Minmatar The Red Circle Inc.
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Posted - 2009.12.03 22:57:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah ..You always whined about me using it, and now you use it yourself. You are a hypocrite and you ruin the spirit of FW, just like you did with your army of untrained alts and exploits to make timers count down magically on the Gallente/Caldari front.
Actually that makes you a hypocrite as well. If you used this, you were ruining the spirit just like he is now. If you have found out about this and reported it, that's good, but if you continued to use this, no matter if you want to "proof a point" or get an unfair advantage you're not better as any other common exploiter. And I say exploiter as you see this as broken mechanism that needs to be fixed. Thus you are "exploiting" a broken mechanism according to your own standards.
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Go ahead and abuse this. The sooner CCP will take away the broken plexing system completely, and reset the systems to their original state.
I hope this was meant to be ironic, because before Damar started "playing the loophole" Amarr and Minmatar were so far happy with their "meaningless occupancy". It was all driven my "incharacterly driven pride" and fun in having PvP.
Just because Caldari and Gallente got a broken toy and dont like to play with it they dont have to ruin it for the Amarr and Minmatar who were at least so creative to play with it even though it is broken.
If you (in a general sense and only loosely aimed at Ankhesentapemkah and Damar) got a problem with the state of FW adress it to CCP. Just ruining the game for other is not "proving a point". It's just griefing.
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Quote: I'd like to point out ...
I'd like to point out ...
So we got two hypocrites pointing fingers at each other pointing out that "the other" is a hypocrite.
This would almost be funny if you two wouldnt be ruining the game for others.
----- Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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Bad Messenger
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.12.03 23:06:00 -
[27]
This tactic is most efficient way to conquer all system.
This system shows what happen if you remove npc from plexes or make them inefficient (like amarr npc is now), our alts does not have to care about those at all.
This method also proves that plex spawning is not an issue if you attack on whole area, not only in 1 or 2 systems.
Here was only couple things what this can show, but we all can learn from it if we want.
Fact is that this is legit method at this moment, and every one knew it exists, if minmatar was not prepared for it they can only look at mirror.
And i find it funny how minmatar is crying about it while they had use some of the methods in caldari space on some scale all the time.
But maybe all lame things are just ok if others does not use them against you.
We did not invent any of these methods, we just put them all together and made lamest machine in fw history.
and last i want to thank Ankh for making fw missions easiest way to grind alts for this operation and earn some nice amounts of lp. What is ironic is that these lame traitor alts has millions of minmatar lp to use
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Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.03 23:14:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Damar Rocarion So, why didnt you had any interest to fix it during your term in CSM and quite contrary, constantly bragged about using the standings to capture plexes to me when we chased you away from plexes?
This is a legitimate question and i'm sure you would like to answer to all those concerned about faction war.
Surprise, I did ask CCP to fix this, just like I asked them to fix the cloaking exploit and the timer exploit, and the whole plexing mechanics which basically encourages people (like me) to avoid PVP while they run plexes. I used this tactic to become Luminaire General and hoped this would wake up CCP and get them to fix it.
I told them that the current plexing mechanics of FW make it more profitable to use recycled unskilled alts which avoid PVP, than to use established characters who fight over plexes.
Why I bragged to you about it? Cause you were bragging about your own alts and exploits, and because you were always smacktalking and insulting me, rather than hearing me out and working with me to fix the issues that troubled FW.
Do you think I was in FW just for my own fun? Not really. It was homework which CCP gave to me as part of the CSM. When I was in CSM1, Empyrean Age was just released, and CCP asked me to write a document about factional warfare. I had tested FW on SISI before launch and saw it was released in a pretty incomplete state, so I thought, "Hey, I can make a difference for these players if I specialize here, none of the other CSM seem to care". I didn't have the knowledge of the game that the 0.0 players had, and I just thought this was the best way to contribute to the community as I could. So I signed up with Amarr, my favorite faction (surprise!), learned the ins and outs, became the first Divine Commodore, and wrote a long document about the flaws of FW.
The standings issue was noticed somewhere in june 2008, got together with some Amarr players which I plexed with at that time, and one of them reported it. We got the reply that it was working as intended, as it was a necessary evil which allowed allied militia members to be in the plexes if they met standing requirements. I thought this was pretty stupid and mentioned it to CCP on the 22nd June 2008. They would look into it but didn't, just like the other, more important issues, were never fixed.
CCP introduced a new round of fixes at the end of July, so I re-joined as Gallente, abused the standings to get max rank, and wrote my second rather critical report. The only time I joined for personal reasons was in december, as I was hoping to get a medal for capturing the most sites. This was the time where you encountered me, and we got to hate eachother. CCP organized that event later on, and I rejoined the Gallente to motivate them to plex for once. Never really cared about plexing and the system capturing business myself, but since CCP had an event, I thought I should be there to see how it went and provide feedback. The average Gallente turned out to be an ungrateful d!ck and had no interest in the event, so I quit again.
It was here that I realized there was fishy stuff going on with the plex timers and how you guys were using alts and gaming the system. Also became painfully aware of the lag issues plaguing FW, which I only remotely heard about and never thought much about. Used my influence in the CSM to get CCP to fix the lag and FW mechanics problems (did this through CCP directly as the CSM voted down a lot of FW issues, including the lag one, as they didn't deem them important!), and wrote a new document about the problems with the FW plex mechanics, as well as the NPC imbalance issues.
When the Gallente finally started caring about the plexes, I joined Eleutherian guard, but we were put off by the overpowered Caldari NPCs, your use of alts, and all the exploits with the timers. I finally managed to reproduce the timer exploit and reported this to CCP. Seeing no point in playing FW in this state, I quit. ---
Click banner for info! |
Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.12.03 23:33:00 -
[29]
Could I ask all of you to move the discussion about Caldari vs. Gallente, the accusations of hypcrisy, and other such stuff to a different thread?
This issue deserves more than another derailed thread of personal dislikes.
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Stevakis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.12.03 23:38:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Oh yes one more thing. Why is this issue a problem for you? There is noone using this against you, and if there was, you can just capture everything back with your alts and timer exploits. So the real reason is that you just want to screw up everyone else's joy in FW, just like you guys always did.
This. We all know the PERVS and Damar are just a bunch of smacktalking griefers, they don't care about this issue, they just want to ruin the game. They're the Goons of FW.
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