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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.12.06 15:37:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Damar Rocarion It will be up to Amarr to give the finishing blow anyway. Caldari cannot shoot the bunker so Amarr can simply refuse to take the system. We simply want to bring attention to this bug to CCP. Only one Amarr pilot was actually even informed about it in advance so this is not a joint op or anything, purely a Caldari operation.
As said, once CCP declares this an exploit/bug, we stop. It is what we want to happpen.
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
Damar you are exploiting (small "e") a ridiculous loophole in the FW system to remove the enjoyment of thousands of players. The war that has been fairly decently fought by those players will be brought to a conclusion in weeks now by what will be commonly recognized by as cheating the system. While CCP GM's and Developers have thus far failed to see the implications of this loophole I do not think it gives you free reign to act like this and destroy the integrity of the Faction warfare conflict like a spoilt child raging against a lack of parental attention.
If the war ends like this the Amarrian RP community will never recover from the taint. Any 24th Crusade corporation publicising victory posts will be viewed as sharing your exploiting of the game system and all that will be left will be the same kind of bitterness that stalked and ruined the Black Rise zone.
To your motivation. I cannot agree. I don't like log-in traps. It doesn't mean that I logout my entirely alliance at gates and perform such traps 24/7 to make my point.
You are ruining Faction Warfare for thousands of players right now. Either admit you are doing it for the agenda of "griefing" (which lets face it is certainly an eve tradition) or stop doing it. Unless the TLF players can summon up a goon-style threadnaught on general forum of 200+ pages in the next few days to complain about this situation then I cannot see CCP being able or willing or act fast enough to prevent the end of this warzone through this tactic.
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.12.06 15:41:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Kade Jeekin
Originally by: Jade Constantine ...I cannot believe that a majority of the 24th Crusade players would want to "win" the occupancy battles in their theatre through the efforts of a standings-loophole like this. It makes a mockery of corporations like 1PG and PIE and others who have by and large been fighting an honest war so far...
Jade Constantine, I appreciate your naive belief that PIE had honour but take a look at IGS where PIE is rubbing the new system occupancies in our faces, and even in this thread they only give conditional support. Shame really.
Yes it is very disappointing to see PIE making RP propaganda mileage out these system captures achieved purely through the Caldari plexing technique. I admit I expected more from them on an OOC level.
Quote: Still, it's not PIE's fault, they're only riding on the back of the inevitable. Damar wouldn't listen to them, as he's on his own crusade.
Well ultimately if they use the advantage to win the war they are complicit.
In PIE's place I'd have simply wardecced these caldari for ruining the spirit of the war for everyone involved but then thats me ... and I'm pretty wardec happy at the best of times.
True Knowledge |
Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.12.06 15:52:00 -
[93]
I can not blame PIE for making RP out of it. I would love to make RP out of it, too (the Minmatar are supposed to be the underdogs, and hell, my alliance has been saying we'll be losing the war fast if it's started, so it actually fits into my RP background) - but it's just not possible to go "uh, well, the Caldari have brought a large group of barely trained pilots that are not being shot at by our Fleet if they are capturing the complex, and we failed to set up regular 12'o'clock fleets, and I'm not helping because the Republic doesn't want my alliance to help, ..." - the bugginess of the mechanics makes ICerizing the whole thing absolutely impossible for me.
On the other hand, I am not worried about losing systems. That just means there are more options to capture them back.
What I am worried about is that the Minmatar Militia will lose active pilots interested in plexing because "losing" is demoralizing, thus breaking the nice balance we had between the Amarr and Minmatar militias for a very long time. The lack of balancing factors in FW just means that the normal failure cascades in large groups have very permanent effects.
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Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.12.06 16:13:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Damar Rocarion
It will be up to Amarr to give the finishing blow anyway. Caldari cannot shoot the bunker so Amarr can simply refuse to take the system.
Yes, the Amarr could refuse to take the sys... Wait, was that 3 Minmatar Systems being taken in quick succession by use of this bug?
With Respect, Players, no matter what side they're on, will not care how a system goes vulnerable, all they'll care about is that it's in a position to be taken. Those 3 systems prove that.
Have to admit, it's certainly going to be interesting seeing CCP's response to this as there's no way they can claim that this is Working as intended.
Destroying the warzone that was best balanced, however was probably not the best way to do this. Had you done it from the Gallente side to do in a few weeks what honest plexers have been trying to do for months, then you'd have made a bigger point.
So, what do you think. Don't look at it from the point of View of a leading Caldari Plexer, but from a purely Neutral Point of View :- With the use of this tactic, could you reset the battlelines in the Gallente-Caldari War within a Few Weeks? Could you undo what dozens of Players on the Caldari side had put several Months of constant effort into Achieving? ---------------
Image from Crumplecorn's DesuSigs |
Evanda Char
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.12.06 16:16:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Z0D ... Second part I agree with but I do think that allies should be able to capture eachother's plexes without being shot at by NPCs.
I have to ask... why? Why on earth should you be able to seize an enemy faction's military outpost without anyone trying to shoot you?
-Eva-
Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time |
Evanda Char
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.12.06 16:26:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Evanda Char on 06/12/2009 16:42:43
Originally by: Damar Rocarion
As said, once CCP declares this an exploit/bug, we stop. It is what we want to happpen.
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
Then perhaps you could support the topic that calls for a fix to it?
EDIT: I'm a doofus, you actually did.
-Eva-
Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time |
K0n Fus10n
Tribal Core
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Posted - 2009.12.06 17:04:00 -
[97]
+1 |
Neu Bastian
Minmatar Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2009.12.06 17:14:00 -
[98]
3 systems fallen in a day. it usually takes anyone on the Amarr/Minmatar side weeks to get a single system.
Go ahead CCP, tell me this s*** is not game breaking. :(
Quote:
Neu Bastian Valklear Guard - CEO
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Veshta Yoshida
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.12.06 17:29:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Neu Bastian 3 systems fallen in a day. it usually takes anyone on the Amarr/Minmatar side weeks to get a single system.
Go ahead CCP, tell me this s*** is not game breaking. :(
Let's hope this particular kick is sufficiently swift and painful so that CCP wakes up at long last....
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Ankhesentapemkah
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Posted - 2009.12.06 17:30:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 06/12/2009 17:39:30 Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 06/12/2009 17:37:14
Originally by: Neu Bastian 3 systems fallen in a day. it usually takes anyone on the Amarr/Minmatar side weeks to get a single system.
Go ahead CCP, tell me this s*** is not game breaking. :(
The cloaking exploit was not game breaking enough to warrant a fix for 4 months.
The lag wasn't serious enough to warrant a fix for 6 months.
The timer exploit is not game breaking enough, and still not fixed after 8 months.
The FW missions were fixed in Dominion oh wait...
After a year, kills give Loyalty Points may sometimes give LP but most of the time they don't.
The FW plex spawn mechanics will be fixed right after Apocrypha Soon(TM).
Alliances may participate in Factional Warfare in Empyrean Age 1.2, Quantum Rise, Q1 2009, Right after Apocrypha, Someday.
The CSM has raised the lack of development and bug fixes several times. I did, Erik did, Z0D will likely be raising this very topic as well. CCP just doesn't think FW is important.
Originally by: Veshta Yoshida Let's hope this particular kick is sufficiently swift and painful so that CCP wakes up at long last....
Unfortunately I cannot tell you about the gross incompetence and uncaringness going on behind the scenes.
Question for the people here. Do you think that FW is salvagable, as in, can it work if there are some tweaks and rebalances? Or are the mechanics so fundamentally broken, that all of it should be sent back to the drawing board? ---
Click banner for info! |
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Aurore Tam
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Posted - 2009.12.06 17:40:00 -
[101]
Supported
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Z0D
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Posted - 2009.12.06 18:01:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Z0D on 06/12/2009 18:12:01
FW has many problems, not just the standing. I believe there is an attitude problem with CCP in regards to FW. For this reason, I'll be supporting the following thread here as that is a broader issue. Click below for my manifesto.
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Damar Rocarion
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Posted - 2009.12.06 18:13:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 06/12/2009 18:17:24
Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre So, what do you think. Don't look at it from the point of View of a leading Caldari Plexer, but from a purely Neutral Point of View :- With the use of this tactic, could you reset the battlelines in the Gallente-Caldari War within a Few Weeks? Could you undo what dozens of Players on the Caldari side had put several Months of constant effort into Achieving?
I probably could. It would be horrible and lame. And Gallente are/were already doing it, such as Val Erian with his alt Ramad Noinacor and few others. Understand this.
We simply had to take this desperate course of action before it exploded on our face in our front. Let me repeat it already, I dont personally like what I am doing but eventually, someone would start it and destroy FW anyway. It is better to get the attention to CCP now. We tried for over a year in forums and bug reports, no help.
Do you think Gallentes would be any different and honourable than Amarr if the position was reversed? No, the actions in that Nennamaila fight already proved it well enough.
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.12.06 18:13:00 -
[104]
Now after the sov revamp, a full FW revamp would be nice.
I think it can be made into something usable, but to make it into something really good, you need to remove the division between plexing and pvping, so you don't have two different (and almost disjunct) crowds for those.
But that would require a rather drastic change to plexing all in all. And I have no idea what kind of change.
Fixing the bugs and making it balanced (even for vastly different militia sizes and participation) is quite straightforward and doable, so doing that first would be a great.
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Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.06 18:23:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Damar Rocarion I probably could. It would be horrible and lame. And Gallente are/were already doing it, such as Val Erian with his alt Ramad Noinacor and few others. Understand this.
Aha, so this is all about your own self-interest after all.
You have to put some more effort in "defending" (as in use 10 untrained AFK alts to sit at the buttons) the Caldari systems now because there suddenly are more than 2 people that can deal with overpowered Caldari NPCs. So off you go, grief the Minmatar until they start posting whinethreads, so you have your way and you can keep on defending Caldari space with your 10 untrained alts. ---
Click banner for info! |
Mitara Newelle
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.12.06 21:41:00 -
[106]
This is the first I'm hearing of this, and yes, it does greatly diminish the victories. Let's hope CCP acts quickly, on all the FW issues. Though I'm not holding my breath.
As to the RP side, I don't think it can be expected that we ignore the systems going vulnerable, and seeing what the Caldari have done in such a short time when she and the rest of the 24IC plexers have been busting their humps for just about a year and a half has really put Mitara into a depressed state
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.12.06 21:50:00 -
[107]
It should be addressed along with the bug fix for the dodgy timers that keep going even when the plex is empty.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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No Mauk'Ob
Minmatar Murientor Tribe
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Posted - 2009.12.06 22:59:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Rodj Blake It should be addressed along with the bug fix for the dodgy timers that keep going even when the plex is empty.
agreed whole heartedly. how that particular bug has survived in the wild for at least 8 months when it is know and reported I'll never know.
please consider supporting this thread as well:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1225788
so we can get back to hard fought victories and bitter defeats sooner than later.
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Kade Jeekin
Kinda'Shujaa
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Posted - 2009.12.06 23:05:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Rodj Blake It should be addressed along with the bug fix for the dodgy timers that keep going even when the plex is empty.
To be honest the bugged timers are worse than the standings issue.
The real, and most simple, solution to both of these, and pure speed tanking, is the requirement that all the Navy must be destroyed before the plex can be captured. --------------------------------------- Outface the depths of evil with clarity --------------------------------------- |
Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.12.06 23:09:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Kade Jeekin To be honest the bugged timers are worse than the standings issue.
What makes the standings issue more of a problem is that the plex bugging can be petitioned; the standings abuse can't. So the former can not be abused on a large scale such as it is currently done with the standings.
But yes, there are so many idiotic bugs it's not funny anymore.
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Insa Rexion
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2009.12.06 23:21:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Insa Rexion on 06/12/2009 23:24:30 Edited by: Insa Rexion on 06/12/2009 23:24:04 If I learn one thing from this it's that I can't stand plexers and their pathetic, game ruining pendantry and one-upmanship, whether they are gallente or caldari. Please just sod off all of you and take ur silly meta-dramas elsewhere, I for one am sick to death of all of you.
EDIT, TBH let's just get this over with, all matari should just completely ignore all plexes. Let the caldari take them all and get CCP to do something about it so we don't have to listen to them and the gallente plexers *****ing on about a mechanic that means nothing to most ppl in FW over and over and over ... --------------------------------------------
well mannered ****ole |
Gabriel Darkefyre
Minmatar Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.12.06 23:47:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Damar Rocarion
Do you think Gallentes would be any different and honourable than Amarr if the position was reversed? No, the actions in that Nennamaila fight already proved it well enough.
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
In truth, No. I don't believe that. As long as this, or any other, loophole exists then there are people on all sides who would gladly exploit it. No side is whiter than white when it comes to that.
I can only speak for myself when I say that I've never deliberately triggered off any of the assorted exploit/bugs. There was one time when I was forced to warp out under heavy NPC Fire when taking a plex solo, repaired my ship and returned to the plex to find that the plex timer was still running. No Idea how it happened and No Idea of how to reproduce it in sufficient detail for a bug report. I'm told that it's been bug reported several times in the past however by people on all sides.
As to the Plex I was in, I got back within range of the Timer and finished off the Rats to successfully take the plex legally.
Someone did say above that plexes should require you to kill all the hostile rats to close them. On that I'd have to agree, however there should be rats spawned from both sides to make it just as hard to take a defensive plex as it is to take an offensive plex.
The requirement to Kill the Rats would solve the Standings issue as the person running the plex would be aggressed to the Rat Faction, it would solve the T1 Speedtanking Frigate Issue as they would not have the DPS to take on a plex solo and it would solve the Bugged Timers Problem as finishing the plex would no longer require you to orbit a button, just wipe out all the NPC Rats of the opposing faction before the other side can wipe out the rats of your faction.
Of course, It'd damage your standings towards the opposing faction, but then there should be consequences to getting into FW. After all, with the Level 1 Agent Changes from Dominion it's now impossible to permanently lock yourself out of any faction's space. ---------------
Image from Crumplecorn's DesuSigs |
Gangleri
Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2009.12.07 00:27:00 -
[113]
This bug and all bugs in FW should be properly fixed, so me and the whole 1st Praetorian Guard supports this call for change.
Meanwhile abusing this loop/bug/exploit in extreme to get the attention of CCP and so spoiling the game fun of many, does not get our support. We have always been against any use of loops/bugs/exploits and will not actively support a campaign based on it.
For this reason the 1st Praetorian Guard has pulled back from any offensive plexing a few days ago and now made it a corporate wide decision. We will not shoot any bunker, we will not capture any Minmatar complex and will not put any roleplay based on this campaign on IGS until the situation has normalized. Yes, the situation before the 1st of December was not perfect but it had many moments of fun as a game. Those moment of fun are now gone and I don't know who I have to thank most, CCP or Damar or ......
And CCP, get your act together. If you launch a game feature then you don't have an obligation to developed it further on but you do have an obligation to fix bugs and exploits.
1PG is recruiting
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.12.07 00:51:00 -
[114]
I have the greatest respect for 1PG for that. That can not have been an easy decision.
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Aeirah
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Posted - 2009.12.07 01:02:00 -
[115]
Support this change. Essentially attacking a military installation without repercussions cause your "buddies" doesn't make any sense in any setting, game or otherwise.
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Seriphyn Inhonores
Eleutherian Guard
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Posted - 2009.12.07 01:11:00 -
[116]
Yep, it's rather daft.
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Kazzzi
Amarr Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.12.07 01:17:00 -
[117]
Mad props to Gangleri and 1PG for taking such a stand on this issue.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.12.07 01:18:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Gangleri This bug and all bugs in FW should be properly fixed, so me and the whole 1st Praetorian Guard supports this call for change.
Meanwhile abusing this loop/bug/exploit in extreme to get the attention of CCP and so spoiling the game fun of many, does not get our support. We have always been against any use of loops/bugs/exploits and will not actively support a campaign based on it.
For this reason the 1st Praetorian Guard has pulled back from any offensive plexing a few days ago and now made it a corporate wide decision. We will not shoot any bunker, we will not capture any Minmatar complex and will not put any roleplay based on this campaign on IGS until the situation has normalized. Yes, the situation before the 1st of December was not perfect but it had many moments of fun as a game. Those moment of fun are now gone and I don't know who I have to thank most, CCP or Damar or ......
And CCP, get your act together. If you launch a game feature then you don't have an obligation to developed it further on but you do have an obligation to fix bugs and exploits.
I have to give you respect for this Gangleri.
Appreciated.
True Knowledge |
Neu Bastian
Minmatar Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2009.12.07 01:29:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Gangleri This bug and all bugs in FW should be properly fixed, so me and the whole 1st Praetorian Guard supports this call for change.
Meanwhile abusing this loop/bug/exploit in extreme to get the attention of CCP and so spoiling the game fun of many, does not get our support. We have always been against any use of loops/bugs/exploits and will not actively support a campaign based on it.
For this reason the 1st Praetorian Guard has pulled back from any offensive plexing a few days ago and now made it a corporate wide decision. We will not shoot any bunker, we will not capture any Minmatar complex and will not put any roleplay based on this campaign on IGS until the situation has normalized. Yes, the situation before the 1st of December was not perfect but it had many moments of fun as a game. Those moment of fun are now gone and I don't know who I have to thank most, CCP or Damar or ......
And CCP, get your act together. If you launch a game feature then you don't have an obligation to developed it further on but you do have an obligation to fix bugs and exploits.
Much Respect bro.
Quote:
Neu Bastian Valklear Guard - CEO
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Barik Soldrum
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Posted - 2009.12.07 01:38:00 -
[120]
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