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Calineczka OdZapalek
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Posted - 2009.12.06 07:05:00 -
[1]
And again about t2 bpo, my idea about solution for problem with them is, make decryptors have impact on runs only, and invention bpc me/pe affected by me/pe of bpc they invent from.
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RaTTuS
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.12.06 10:20:00 -
[2]
explain the problem 1st -- 3 Titans Lottery EB | Capital |
Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.12.06 10:48:00 -
[3]
The problem:
Small and large T2 ships require crafting materials in different ratio with smaller ships requiring larger proportion of decryptors.
This is not mirrored by T2 BPOs.
Solution:
Put additional 11% tax on T2 manufacturing from BPOs to discourage T2 BPO use. If 11% does not work, make it higher.
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.12.06 11:20:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Lord Fitz on 06/12/2009 11:21:56 Edited by: Lord Fitz on 06/12/2009 11:21:02
Originally by: Forge Lag The problem:
Small and large T2 ships require crafting materials in different ratio with smaller ships requiring larger proportion of decryptors.
This is not mirrored by T2 BPOs.
Solution:
Put additional 11% tax on T2 manufacturing from BPOs to discourage T2 BPO use. If 11% does not work, make it higher.
I think you've been podded without a clone one too many times.
Why do you need to discourage T2 BPO use? Every mechanic in the game is pointing towards ENCOURAGING their use for good reason. Discouraging their use doesn't benefit anyone (no matter how much you want to think it will) if you think it will, you need to think about it some more.
Originally by: Calineczka OdZapalek And again about t2 bpo, my idea about solution for problem with them is, make decryptors have impact on runs only, and invention bpc me/pe affected by me/pe of bpc they invent from.
The effect of this would basically be do decrease the profit in inventing. Think about it. There's a reason they added more variables to invention, it wasn't because of T2 BPOs.
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Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.12.06 12:13:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Lord Fitz Why do you need to discourage T2 BPO use? Every mechanic in the game is pointing towards ENCOURAGING their use for good reason.
Ah great, did not know CCP will introduce more T2 BPOs to help encouraging their use. Good to hear.
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Dacryphile
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Posted - 2009.12.06 18:58:00 -
[6]
T2 BPOs cost billions of isk, if you can find one. You don't think thats bad enough? Invention lets you build T2 stuff without investing hundreds of billions on a BPO what won't pay out for years.
Originally by: Doc Robertson ...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
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Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente SRS Industries SRS.
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Posted - 2009.12.06 19:12:00 -
[7]
Are T2 BPOs a problem? Only people who have actually owned a T2 BPO for the 2+ years required to break even on the initial investment can answer this properly.
Originally by: "Aristotle" We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
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Iron Mayden
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.06 23:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Are T2 BPOs a problem? Only people who have actually owned a T2 BPO for the 2+ years required to break even on the initial investment can answer this properly.
Originally by: Dacryphile T2 BPOs cost billions of isk, if you can find one. You don't think thats bad enough? Invention lets you build T2 stuff without investing hundreds of billions on a BPO what won't pay out for years.
Of course you two are assuming the T2 BPO was bought from someone who originally won it from the lottery.
If it is the original owner, he did not have that investiment of isk
Specialized in Science, Industry and Trade My Skills |
Yarinor
Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.12.07 02:21:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Iron Mayden
Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Are T2 BPOs a problem? Only people who have actually owned a T2 BPO for the 2+ years required to break even on the initial investment can answer this properly.
Originally by: Dacryphile T2 BPOs cost billions of isk, if you can find one. You don't think thats bad enough? Invention lets you build T2 stuff without investing hundreds of billions on a BPO what won't pay out for years.
Of course you two are assuming the T2 BPO was bought from someone who originally won it from the lottery.
If it is the original owner, he did not have that investiment of isk
THE MINERALS I MINE MYSELF ARE FREE!!
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Agent Known
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Posted - 2009.12.07 03:03:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Yarinor
Originally by: Iron Mayden
Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Are T2 BPOs a problem? Only people who have actually owned a T2 BPO for the 2+ years required to break even on the initial investment can answer this properly.
Originally by: Dacryphile T2 BPOs cost billions of isk, if you can find one. You don't think thats bad enough? Invention lets you build T2 stuff without investing hundreds of billions on a BPO what won't pay out for years.
Of course you two are assuming the T2 BPO was bought from someone who originally won it from the lottery.
If it is the original owner, he did not have that investiment of isk
THE MINERALS I MINE MYSELF ARE FREE!!
QFT. What's to stop the original owner of the BPO from selling it off to have a ridiculous sum of ISK nearly instantly? Instead, the BPO is invested, which is actually a "cost", which is why the "break even" point is the same whether or not you purchased the BPO.
This is the very reason why T2 BPOs are not problematic! You can just consider the original owners "lucky", if you want to call it that...but nothing else. On another note, I also have an annoying sig.
inaftertimeflux |
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Iron Mayden
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.07 03:32:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Yarinor
THE MINERALS I MINE MYSELF ARE FREE!!
Very funny, but in this case yes, there wasnt much involved, besides sitting down, crossing your fingers and praying you would win the lottery.
I waited for years, never got lucky, but I never had to invest money on this
I am not saying I agree with the BPO hate, I am glad I can make T2, even though invention is far from perfect, and if you know your math, you can find items that are profitable with invention
Specialized in Science, Industry and Trade My Skills |
Millimage
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.12.07 07:09:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Iron Mayden
Originally by: Yarinor
THE MINERALS I MINE MYSELF ARE FREE!!
Very funny, but in this case yes, there wasnt much involved, besides sitting down, crossing your fingers and praying you would win the lottery.
I waited for years, never got lucky, but I never had to invest money on this
It is not an issue of what you have to invest in the BPO that's the key here. It is about the current worth of the BPO. If you start manufacturing with the BPO you are losing (albeit not forever with a BPO) the money you might have made from selling it directly. That is the opportunity cost of the manufacturing. ______________________
My EVE blog |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.07 07:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Iron Mayden
Originally by: Yarinor
THE MINERALS I MINE MYSELF ARE FREE!!
Very funny, but in this case yes, there wasnt much involved, besides sitting down, crossing your fingers and praying you would win the lottery.
I waited for years, never got lucky, but I never had to invest money on this
I am not saying I agree with the BPO hate, I am glad I can make T2, even though invention is far from perfect, and if you know your math, you can find items that are profitable with invention
You are falling exactly for the same error:
- the skill point you spent training the science skill were free; - the standing with the R&D agents was free; - running the missions for them instead of more profitable agents was free;
So the BPO had no cost.
Wrong. They had an opportunity cost in training the science skills instead of combat or mining skills, in running mission without immediate payout for the R&D agents, in running low return mission to get the standing instead of better paying missions.
Someone got that a return for that cost with a BPO after 1-2 years, the others got a return after 2 years with the access to datacores.
So there was a opportunity cost in training several millions SP in research skills instead of combat skills. 2 millions SP mean doing level 4 missions 2 month later. 60 millions less every day for 2 months if you run mission mean 3,6 billions, plus the time spent running the R&D missions for extra LP instead of doing combat missions.
Don't seem so trivial a cost, especially for those that have got the BPO with the second distribution after the introduction of invention.
So unless all you did was: "I have trained Assault frigates so I already have mechanic at 5, so I train mechanical engineering at 1 , speak with an agent and pray", you had a opportunity cost and all the people getting R&D agents with the old system had a opportunity cost. Not seeing that is selective blindness.
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Iron Mayden
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.07 13:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Iron Mayden
Originally by: Yarinor
THE MINERALS I MINE MYSELF ARE FREE!!
Very funny, but in this case yes, there wasnt much involved, besides sitting down, crossing your fingers and praying you would win the lottery.
I waited for years, never got lucky, but I never had to invest money on this
I am not saying I agree with the BPO hate, I am glad I can make T2, even though invention is far from perfect, and if you know your math, you can find items that are profitable with invention
You are falling exactly for the same error:
- the skill point you spent training the science skill were free; - the standing with the R&D agents was free; - running the missions for them instead of more profitable agents was free;
So the BPO had no cost.
Wrong. They had an opportunity cost in training the science skills instead of combat or mining skills, in running mission without immediate payout for the R&D agents, in running low return mission to get the standing instead of better paying missions.
Someone got that a return for that cost with a BPO after 1-2 years, the others got a return after 2 years with the access to datacores.
So there was a opportunity cost in training several millions SP in research skills instead of combat skills. 2 millions SP mean doing level 4 missions 2 month later. 60 millions less every day for 2 months if you run mission mean 3,6 billions, plus the time spent running the R&D missions for extra LP instead of doing combat missions.
Don't seem so trivial a cost, especially for those that have got the BPO with the second distribution after the introduction of invention.
So unless all you did was: "I have trained Assault frigates so I already have mechanic at 5, so I train mechanical engineering at 1 , speak with an agent and pray", you had a opportunity cost and all the people getting R&D agents with the old system had a opportunity cost. Not seeing that is selective blindness.
I understand your point of view, but the thing is:
I did not invest skill points solely for that. It is not the same as, say, investing my time mining (which I agree I would be investing my time, and those minerals had a real value) - You did not have to run R&D missions, only to double the points acquired. So if the person ran those missions, than I would have to agree with you. - Again, you did not have to run missions.
Again, what I mean is this is not exactly the same as in the mining / datacore / relics situation...
But in the situation where a person would invest his time training specifically to be able to use those R&D agents and acquire points in the lottery, I would see your point.
Specialized in Science, Industry and Trade My Skills |
Iron Mayden
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.07 14:02:00 -
[15]
Also do not mistake my discussion here with being an advocate of removing those BPOs Altough far from perfect, I am happy I can have profit with T2 invention.
Specialized in Science, Industry and Trade My Skills |
Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2009.12.07 18:21:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 07/12/2009 18:21:46 *sigh*.
Op says tech 2 bpo's are evil even though they have a purpose for filling market needs just like invention. Economics have proved that supply and demand are actually in a good state....,,just not AFTER A FREAKIN expansion release.
I feels this is bpo envy brought on by market instabilities due to pre/post patch speculation |
Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.12.07 19:24:00 -
[17]
Ah, T2 BPO holders can have datacores proportional to the original RP cost and chace of getting BPO. That would make it fair.
See? We can get rid of T2 BPOs tomorrow and none would be losing anything at all.
Anyway, the original post was about invention of smaller ships requiring more descryptors in comparison with larger ships, while this is not mirrored by BPOs.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2009.12.07 19:39:00 -
[18]
Heh I dont think so lol |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2009.12.08 02:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Iron Mayden
Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Are T2 BPOs a problem? Only people who have actually owned a T2 BPO for the 2+ years required to break even on the initial investment can answer this properly.
Originally by: Dacryphile T2 BPOs cost billions of isk, if you can find one. You don't think thats bad enough? Invention lets you build T2 stuff without investing hundreds of billions on a BPO what won't pay out for years.
Of course you two are assuming the T2 BPO was bought from someone who originally won it from the lottery.
If it is the original owner, he did not have that investiment of isk
Ok, so I'll give you a thousand dollars for your arms and legs. You were born with them right? So it's free money?
Most BPOs have been traded since they were given away, and the reality is that by not selling, you are in effect incurring the same cost as someone that buys.
The reality is that the damage was done the instant they were given out, magnified by their rarity. The problem actually stopped the moment invention was introduced and they stopped being given out. At that point they became perfectly balanced and the 'problem' was gone. That is the nature of a persistent game, once something has had such an impact it is impossible to retrospectively fix, the damage is done.
Originally by: Forge Lag Ah, T2 BPO holders can have datacores proportional to the original RP cost and chace of getting BPO. That would make it fair.
See? We can get rid of T2 BPOs tomorrow and none would be losing anything at all.
Anyway, the original post was about invention of smaller ships requiring more descryptors in comparison with larger ships, while this is not mirrored by BPOs.
You really don't understand how the market works do you?
If you gave out that many datacores the datacore market would tank to nothing and invention would be 'free' as such there would be no profit in invention either. Everyone loses. No one wins.
I've yet to see any scenario where T2 BPOs are removed and anyone wins at all. Their introduction was the problem, not their existence, unless you can go back in time, there's nothing to do.
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2009.12.08 04:12:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Misanthra on 08/12/2009 04:14:10 Edited by: Misanthra on 08/12/2009 04:13:11
Originally by: Jovialmadness Edited by: Jovialmadness on 07/12/2009 18:21:46 *sigh*.
I feels this is bpo envy brought on by market instabilities due to pre/post patch speculation
Basically. Alot of us missed the lottery...oh well. Some did't win the lottery if in game at that time...why its called a lottery.
tax this, what's next? tax to older toons who run their own pos' and reactions and the items made were put in their production line? Is an unfair advantage that my couple month old indy just breaking into t2 production has to pay markup on mats while some guy who's been around a while has it easier making his own nanotransistors and doesn't have the markup they put on it when selling on market (but will still charge it for giggles and grins when determining item price).
T2 bpo not being used is pointless. Use discouraged by taxing even more so. If op or any t2 bpo hater owned one...be willing to bet good isk that it be used 24/7. And probably would think the tax is a bad idea lol.
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Iron Mayden
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.08 11:10:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lord Fitz Ok, so I'll give you a thousand dollars for your arms and legs. You were born with them right? So it's free money?
Interesting comparison but wrong. It would be more like a guy who won a car on a lottery. Compare that to a guy who worked and invested time and money to purchase his own car.
Anyway, I agree with you in one think: the damage is done, and frankly I do not have any suggestion as to how to level this.
I am happy I can do T2 at all.
Maybe if T2 bpcs come with better ME/PE, maybe T1 BPO Me/Pe affecting the outcome, etc Specialized in Science, Industry and Trade My Skills |
Qoi
New Eden Warriors
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Posted - 2009.12.08 11:41:00 -
[22]
Perhaps CCP could put the censor to a good use and censor "T2 BPO", so myself and other inventors wouldn't have to read all this babble all the time. /sarcasm
I'm pretty sure the T1 Market is much more desperately in need of a fix than the T2 Market - which seems to be fine.
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Ministers Of Destruction. Green Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.08 14:07:00 -
[23]
Anyone remember how much T2 kit used to cost?
There are a few holes in current T2 production where a bpo will winout over invention, AFs,mining crystals spring to mind but there are a wealth of other items that will turn you a profit.
Now is a terrible time to quibble about things as the prices are still funny after dominion.
As far as I can see, the biggest problem with invention is that there are far too many kids out there who go "woooooooooooo INVENTION!!!" and then realise that they're runnning at a loss.
Find a bpc on contract for the item you want to make, check the materials needed, work out material cost, add in datacore cost, plan it all out before you invest the isk and you'll make a profit and avoid the nonprofit items.
I did like the idea that was thrown around before about adding a tiny tiny chance (based on current number of BPO's of item in game) of getting a T2 BPO from invention but that's just because I want one just as much as everyone else wants the billions of isk they're worth. --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Qual
Gallente Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2009.12.08 14:16:00 -
[24]
There are nothing wrong with keeping the T2 prints around. just loose the base -4/-4 modifier on BPC's. Problem solved.
This changes the BPO advantage from no invetion cost to at least 10% better material cost, but in most cases 30%+. To just no invetion cost and slight mineral cost bonus, if you did ME on the BPO.
Its about time.
As for the whole "oppotunity cost" argument. Lol. This assumes that selling the BPO would give you ISK in hand that could be invested in more profitable items. (Having ISK in hand is not profitable. Actaully they will start loosing value immidiately.) The issue is that for certain T2 BPO's there IS nothing more profitable to invest in (besides pyramid scams, but I choose to ignore those...) thus invalidateing the whole argument.
Two things make owning the BPO profitable, the earnings on it, and the increasing market value of said BPO. I mean, lol, XanCom bought its LAST interceptor BPO for 700M in 2006, which was a high price at the time. Low price sets it at value 20B (very low) at current. Over 36 months thats 9% value increase pr. month. Add to that the actual earnings of the product. In short whatever the margin on the produced item, its been profitable just owning the BPO.
No lost oppotunity cost there, so stop using that argument to justify T2 BPO existence. Mind you I dont want T2 BPO removed. Not at all. Just dont use that old "oppotunity cost" argumant where its not valid.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
Ehbdfgf Intaki
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Posted - 2009.12.08 22:20:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Ehbdfgf Intaki on 08/12/2009 22:23:15 So much to say against T2 BPO..........
First : if you think T2 BPO owner has unfair advantage on T2 building why stick on T2 items that has T2 BPO while there a lot of item were no T2 BPOs exist at all. example of that are all BS and BC and destroyer T2, some cruisers and some frigates and Sentry drones and lot of mods. There so little that a single player can do, choose wisely.
Second - go for T3 - no BPOs owner what so ever.....
Third - yes i have a few T2 BPOs but guess what : i have made much much more profit with invention compare to the T2 BPOs i have....
Ehb
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Mandabalu
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Posted - 2009.12.08 23:51:00 -
[26]
t3 is the answer, you whiners.
once t3 modules will be introduced, and they will, T2 modules and their BPO's will slowly dilute in value. CCP simply doesnt want to remove the BPOs because many of them belong to their msn buddies.
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2009.12.09 00:09:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Mandabalu t3 is the answer, you whiners.
once t3 modules will be introduced, and they will, T2 modules and their BPO's will slowly dilute in value. CCP simply doesnt want to remove the BPOs because many of them belong to their msn buddies.
Not all msn buddies lol. Alot of have been sold over time, would screw over many people and involve billions and billions of isk. These aren't exactly a cruise missile kestrel you can pull the allowed use and fitting from code.
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Volir
Dot.
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Posted - 2009.12.09 00:22:00 -
[28]
You don't break even on T2 BPO.
You live off the T2 BPO until you get tired of it, then you sell it to make back the purchase price. You don't buy a T2 BPO with the intention of owning it for 10 years. It is an income source you purchase and sell when you are done with it.
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Iron Mayden
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.09 01:32:00 -
[29]
The best suggestion so far would be for the Me0 PE0 instead of the current -4/-4
Specialized in Science, Industry and Trade My Skills |
Juno Imaginos
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Posted - 2009.12.09 07:38:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Qual As for the whole "oppotunity cost" argument. Lol. This assumes that selling the BPO would give you ISK in hand that could be invested in more profitable items. (Having ISK in hand is not profitable. Actaully they will start loosing value immidiately.) The issue is that for certain T2 BPO's there IS nothing more profitable to invest in (besides pyramid scams, but I choose to ignore those...) thus invalidateing the whole argument.
And here I thought the whole river of tears was due to them darn BPO's being such fabulous isk makers. So I guess what you are saying is that there is no opportunity cost because the isk can't be invested in anything more profitable (i.e. something that would make you more isk). But by your line of thinking that extra earned isk would immediately start losing it's value, making this all rather pointless.
I have always suspected that people are actually using that money on something other than amassing more money with it. At least I see all these pod pilots shooting lasers at each other while howling madly in our region of space.
Maybe the opportunity cost of investing in that BPO could be not building a brand new titan?
Originally by: Qual Two things make owning the BPO profitable, the earnings on it, and the increasing market value of said BPO. I mean, lol, XanCom bought its LAST interceptor BPO for 700M in 2006, which was a high price at the time. Low price sets it at value 20B (very low) at current. Over 36 months thats 9% value increase pr. month. Add to that the actual earnings of the product. In short whatever the margin on the produced item, its been profitable just owning the BPO.
The way I see it, there is always a opportunity cost attached to choices. It doesn't mean you have to be giving up the best thing over you current choice to have a cost. Not all value is measured in isk.
With the BPO's the cost might come from the risk of CCP nerfing the item in question to make your BPO less valuable (or even worthless). In this case you would be trading financial security for profit opportunity.
Had CCP decided to eradicate the BPO's from the game by somehow making invention a lot more profitable we would be now pointing at XanCom in a Simpsonesque way going "Haa Haa".
I'm not saying BPO's are not a great investment (I would love to own one), but the value of such things is never quite as clear cut as people would like to think. But that's just my way of thinking...
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