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Damar Rocarion
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Posted - 2009.12.11 11:42:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Neo Gabriel Also noticed you guys trying to plex but also noticed you guys sort of went away. Not sure if you decided to make your best in minnie offensive or just realized you can't use ur alts to counterplex 100 gallente.
What, you mean you are getting bored already after a week? I defended systems for 6 months
Anyway, as said elsewhere, I go back to Matar front when RL issues ease up properly, as honestly, I really cannot be bothered anymore to defend plexes. Caldari now have ripe targets in low-sec but I assume most will sit on Tama/Nourv gate anyway. After all, taking a t1 cruiser for a solo roaming and losing it would be too much of a humiliation
So barring few brave people, I dont really assume you guys to get fights over plexes. I'd wish the whole low-sec would erupt in cruiser vs cruiser fights in plexes or such but I dont see it happening. I think someone said that most of Oicx plexes were taken by 3-4 ships while 4 caldari sat in local for the while time.
So there. Sorry.
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
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Gallactica
Gallente Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.12.11 12:02:00 -
[62]
Neo means you moving on Damar, not the Gallente ya plank.
And it does make me smile to see that the Gallente plexers are making it so you cant do anything about it with the momentum that is in full flow at the moment.
One more thing, the Gallente plexers will always get support from the majority of the Gallente side when its needed to shoot those bunkers, even though a lot of us are not into plexing we are working together and backing each other - can you say the same when the time comes where you need assistance from your side?
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EVIL SYNNs
Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.12.11 12:16:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Gallactica Neo means you moving on Damar, not the Gallente ya plank.
And it does make me smile to see that the Gallente plexers are making it so you cant do anything about it with the momentum that is in full flow at the moment.
One more thing, the Gallente plexers will always get support from the majority of the Gallente side when its needed to shoot those bunkers, even though a lot of us are not into plexing we are working together and backing each other - can you say the same when the time comes where you need assistance from your side?
emmmm they did. Or they wouldn't have taken the bunkers in the first place. Look I don't get on with Damar in game (it is only a game, and he don't play the eve I do, its one of the things that make us love eve) but what he has done for the Caldari is nothing short of Fantastic (in the true sense of the word, things he have done are just out of Fantasy). How many alts does he have that log in after DT to run plexes, who knows.. But his work has been amazing.
And I think its a little ****y that the squids and amarrs are abusing him in this way.
As for Gallente taking systems, well done all. However you can not say on one hand "The NPC's are too strong" then celebrate the capturing of systems the next week without saying "You know what, the NPC's were not the problem DAMAR and PERVS were the problem". I do think the NPC's are too hard however by taking system you are just proving that it was possible, what PERVS have been saying for a long long time.
I know WOLFY smacks and we like to kill **** only. However we are also able to say to our enemies "Dude you were awesome!" and Damar, PERVS, the old 22nd were just that. They played their game and as such gave the squids SOMETHING to hold on to, lets be honest and I'm sure PERVS will agree the squid fleets that PvP are pretty fail, their killboard is embarrassing and all they had was the systems.
Now they don't have the systems cause PERVS (who now have Damar as a member, congrats) have gone and done something else and their lead FC is leaving and to be honest failure cascade is imminent. Which is not what WOLFY wants.
Do I agree with what they are doing in mini space, no I think its abusing a game mechanic. However so do we when we close down Nourv or Motsu. So I am not going to condemn them thats for CCP to do.
I will end by saluting them and saying that they are very good pilots who had a goal and set for it. Succeed and then found the rest of their militia wanting. I'm sure we'll see PERVS back, I know if I were them I would be down in mini space already planning to capture back the gallente system.. or packing up and finding something a LOT more fun as they now have to have more alts to defend a 2 front war.
So celebrate GALLENTE! Freedom is coming home and we should celbrate, but lets also salute those brave warriors who have held us back for nearly 6 months without much support from their massive numbers.
EVIL SYNNs CEO WOLFY
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Gallactica
Gallente Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.12.11 12:50:00 -
[64]
I agree Evil, what Damar and Pervs (+ friends that left FW) have achieved is nothing short of exceptional to be honest, and previously they did have a hell of a lot of support, questionable methods aside (not getting into that as its been covered enough already) it took a hell of a lot of time and effort to do what they did and they deserve huge kudos for that û I was saying on vent last night that them having there time tied up in other areas has affected things quite a lot and our side has really built up the momentum now to carry things on.
The point I was making, would they still have the same support now as they did previously?
Now, whether or not our side continue on to retake all the systems, or we lose what weve taken inside a week I really donÆt know which way it will got to be honest, time will tell I suppose. What IÆm hoping for is that it averages out and we start to get more smaller scale pvp fights which is what a lot of us are in FW for.
Interesting times and the closet rpÆer in me is just glad that weve got something to cheer about other than our pvp kills, as its great for our side of FW all round û again, how long this will last I donÆt know but lets enjoy it while it does last
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Damar Rocarion
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Posted - 2009.12.11 14:50:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 11/12/2009 15:05:07
Originally by: Gallactica The point I was making, would they still have the same support now as they did previously?
Alts aside I had approximately 3-8 pilots at my disposal on average* days unless I agreed to FC. That's the support plex defense we got from the thousands of Caldari militia pilots. Hell, even 22nd mocked me on their return for my insistence on defending systems.
Getting a fleet to bust a bunker was never a problem and I doubt has ever been for any militia. After all, despite several Amarr corps condemming our Metropolis offensive, there is always a battleship gang available to bust a bunker and even a cynoed Dread/Carrier occasionally.
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
*those on plexing channels, dont of course know how many unknown heroes are out there who I never heard of.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.12.11 16:31:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Gallactica
The point I was making, would they still have the same support now as they did previously?
Squids outplexed Gallente 22k to 21k (vps) yesterday. The fail cascade alarm may have been a bit premature. We'll see.
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Kora Zilesti
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Posted - 2009.12.11 17:02:00 -
[67]
Thing is, the Caldari can outplex us by ten thousand if they want, it doesn't change anything if they don't get plexes in the systems we've taken. They can float around a million defensive plexes in their home systems and if we keep them out of our 5, we still win.
Which I think is awesome.
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Selous
Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.12.11 18:11:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Neo Gabriel Like I told you, I didn't know the turns npc on friendlies was a feature until a few days ago. I don't like to cheat to win games and I wouldn't use this even if i knew it, and haven't since, and have told people not to do it when we could have done it.
Burning away to 200km can make npcs shoot the enemy as well as anyone else still inside the plex withing range, so that time since he was the only one inside and out of range you guys got fire. Getting range on long range NPCs and caracals is not really a stupid idea.
However, maybe since you guys are OK with abusing game mechanics we could start to use the turn npc on enemy trick more often!
I dont plex for 2 main reasons , its incredibly boring and the few occasions I did , there was obvious `exploits` being used ( cloaked ships etc ).
But the idea of entering a plex that caldari are trying to cap and getting their npc`s to beat up the normally non pvp ships that are capping .... now that sounds like fun
If pervs , damar etc are saying that they are using `exploit` tactics simply to bring the matter to CCP attention ( claiming that they feel really bad , dirty, unwashed etc for being forced to use said tactics )
Then surely its the duty of every gallente militia pilot to turn the npc`s on plex cappers ? ( I think its totally unfair that damar/pervs are the only ones being forced to do the hard/dirty work and we should do our share of it in any way we can)
God forbid that anyone even suggests that damar/pervs are using these tactics for any reason other then to help CCP. Please nobody should even be thinking thats its a convenient story made up after being caught out after using these tactics for several months.
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Ronin Reborn
Wrath of Fenris
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Posted - 2009.12.12 05:16:00 -
[69]
Puck Flexing.
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Terephen
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Posted - 2009.12.12 13:58:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Damar Rocarion
Originally by: Gallactica Just a point, its unfair to label all the Caldari doing this when its just a very very small minority - Theres a lot of good guys in the Caldari who are as miffed as everyone else that this is going in.
Good for them. I quess we have more moral fibre than you lot as i've yet to see Gallente who would be miffled by using the bug to turn Caldari npcs on Caldari militia.
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
Except that Chatgris said that he's against it right above you. And I know that none of Genstar had even heard of it before you started complaining about it on the forums. In fact, a few months ago I entered a plex that you were defending (in which I flew terribly, and you deservedly destroyed my jaguar) and, right as we were entering you made some comment in local about how we were going to use an NPC exploit. I had no idea what you were talking about, and, stupidly thinking it was you getting snotty about the idea of one person taking the NPC aggression to let others handle the militia, I actually continued to engage you after taking all aggression to prove that I was prepared to play "fair". Which was dumb. And, in hindsight, the very fact that you mentioned this exploit in local shows that you were using it as a mind game.
I'm not going to pretend to be a plexing veteran, but I've never been in a fleet that suggested using this exploit, and I know that most of the people I fly with would be against the idea. Which is what it is. One person in Gallente militia does something you think is wrong, and when it's not publicly condemned by people who weren't even aware that it had happened, you say that Gallente militia as a whole are using exploits. Fine. I'm sure there are tons of Gallente who don't fight fair a lot of the time. And, while I find your general attitude towards plexing frustrating, I've never experienced you doing anything "unfair". But if you did, you know who I'd blame? You. Not the entire Caldari militia.
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Mara Tessidar
Rising Phoenix Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.12 16:11:00 -
[71]
Having never done Faction Warfare before, I am now glad to know that I haven't wasted my time doing other things in the slightest.
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Greg6
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Posted - 2009.12.12 17:26:00 -
[72]
If the code allows for it, if the gm's haven't ruled against it, if it does not violate the terms of service, then it's not an exploit. Now, to be clear, I have never used the "range aggro switch," nor the "standings to fool the NPCs," tricks. But I would do so, guilt free, if I were in a plex that were attacked and I had no other recourse, or if I could be bothered playing the alt game.
We all whine about things we don't like. For myself, I think it's cheesy using alts at all and, IMHO, doing so is "cheating." However, the TOS doesn't forbid it, the gms haven't ruled against it, and the code allows for it. Therefor it's not an exploit. The same is true for either of these two examples.
Folk may not like using range to confuse the npcs. But until CCP bothers to address it specifically, either via code changes, changes in the TOS, or some kind of policy statement, it's not an exploit. It's just a strat you don't like. There are lots of those in the game, for all of us, but don't dress your own personal tastes up in, "exploit," language.
And, again, I'm going to disagree with the notion that the most important reason why Gallente flipped a system was because Damar and his army of alts stopped plexing. That is simply not true and it is insulting to those folk who plexed for *months* trying to make this happen. Without those folk, Damar and his alts could have left Gallente space and the rest of you would have never even known.
That is not to reduce the Caldari's accomplishment in "winning," FW at all. It is to say that the influence of the plexers who would not quit was at least as important in our flipping a systems as was Damar's temporary absence from plexing. In fact, I firmly believe that even if Damar had never left plexing eventually we would have gathered enough folk who were willing to plex to retake systems as that is clearly how the trend was developing. The plexers intel list that Gabriel Darkfire created had made a place where plexers could share intell, discuss strat, help each other out, and, most importantly, let each other know that they were not alone on their plexing island. That is why we flipped the first system. And the next ones came, while Damar and his alts were spotted plexing back in Gallente space, because enough folk in Gall Mill decided to start plexing.
Credit where credit is due. Damar and company achieved an incredible thing in taking all of Gallente space. So too has the Gallente plexers who won systems back. And those plexers achieved their goals not because Damar left space, but because they worked hard for months and wouldn't stop even when their own militia mates ridiculed those efforts. Credit where credit is due, we earned those systems we didn't get them because our opponent just walked away.
And I'm agreeing that we've shown that the NPCs were not the problem, a position I'd made more than once here. :)
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Cromwell Savage
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.12.12 19:21:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Greg6 ...even when their own militia mates ridiculed those efforts.
Are you sure about that? I have seen many express their distaste for plexing, but never any "ridicule". I have seen far more thrown at those who choose not to plex than I have seen at those who do.... |
Vixisti
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.12.12 20:36:00 -
[74]
While it's nice to see Gallente capturing a few systems back from a RP perspecitive, there's still little point in doing it IMO. The taking back of systems hasn't made the squids come out and defend them pvp wise so why do people bother?
Also Greg, the NPC's make little difference to people taking systems or not as most plexing is done with no opposition in the complex, all you have to do is be there. The NPC's do however make it difficult to pvp in plexes and I thought pvp is what FW was all about.
I'm hard pressed to think of a worse game mechanic than the current FW plexing system.
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Damar Rocarion
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Posted - 2009.12.12 20:43:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Terephen One person in Gallente militia does something you think is wrong, and when it's not publicly condemned by people who weren't even aware that it had happened, you say that Gallente militia as a whole are using exploits.
What about other example then? Some person in Caldari militia flies a stabbed frigate to defend plexes. That means Damar does it and in fact does nothing except that. Just go back to forums, you'll see it there.
So why not condemm whole Gallente militia? After all, they happily condemm me over other peoples actions...
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.12.12 21:36:00 -
[76]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 12/12/2009 21:36:22
Originally by: Vixisti
Also Greg, the NPC's make little difference to people taking systems or not as most plexing is done with no opposition in the complex, all you have to do is be there. The NPC's do however make it difficult to pvp in plexes and I thought pvp is what FW was all about.
I'm hard pressed to think of a worse game mechanic than the current FW plexing system.
NPCs really just force you to bring more to the fight than the defenders. It's really a function of EvE game mechanics. For the most part both sides have to think they can win or one of them will disengage. It's all about bringing adequately sized force for the plex and not having the "defender" bail like a little weenie.
For example: it gets boring coming into small compound with a single frig and having the "defender" bail instead of fight even though rats are on his side. Haven't seen much of that lately though. Fewer plexing alts and more Caldari are staying and fighting.
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Bad Messenger
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.12.13 00:22:00 -
[77]
There was reason why gallente did not get systems back when we defended those
Example
Now think how much you need people if there is more people defending
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Noreagaa
Critical Mass Inc. Symbiogenesis
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Posted - 2009.12.13 02:07:00 -
[78]
whats the name of the Caldari militia corp
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Terephen
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Posted - 2009.12.13 05:11:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Damar Rocarion
What about other example then? Some person in Caldari militia flies a stabbed frigate to defend plexes. That means Damar does it and in fact does nothing except that. Just go back to forums, you'll see it there.
So why not condemm whole Gallente militia? After all, they happily condemm me over other peoples actions...
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
I'm fine with that. Anyone who accuses you of doing something without any evidence is being unfair, an idiot, deliberately provocative, frustrated and ignorant, or any combination of these.
But it's a pretty minor point. Like others have said, I don't really care that much what tactics other people use to get what they want, as long as they're allowed by the rules. It's irritating to fly against people who treat the engagement differently: if I'm out solo roaming it's irritating finding nothing but alts who don't want to engage or baiters trying to blob me. It's not wrong, and I'm not against it, it's just irritating to experience. Same as the standings trick I imagine, though I've never seen it or had to deal with it.
Faction war can be a lot of fun, but the fact that people involved have so many different motives means that it's impossible to get into a situation where everyone's goals match. People get upset about "exploits" because their goal might be to get into solo or small-gang pvp, whereas the people they're fighting might be actually just doing it for the standings, and have no interest in fighting at all. Neither side is wrong, but both parties are likely to get annoyed by the actions of the other group.
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Neo Gabriel
Gallente Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.12.13 05:36:00 -
[80]
Well you can't really hold up every FW gallente noob to the level of Wolfy, Bacardidesire notwithstanding... can't explain what happen in that plex. But it happens, I could post a bunch of Daniel "Killboard Fodder" Jackson fleet killmails in here too.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.12.13 06:20:00 -
[81]
Edited by: chatgris on 13/12/2009 06:20:42
Originally by: Neo Gabriel Well you can't really hold up every FW gallente noob to the level of Wolfy, Bacardidesire notwithstanding... can't explain what happen in that plex. But it happens, I could post a bunch of Daniel "Killboard Fodder" Jackson fleet killmails in here too.
The fight happened over the course of an hour with the "not overpowered at all npcs"
Looking through my history, clet's dessie doesn't do nearly as well when the targets don't trickle in over the course of an hour and get jammed :P
http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3074706
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Vixisti
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.12.13 10:35:00 -
[82]
From my experience 90% of FW pvp, if not more, takes place outside of plexes so the mechanics do not really encourage people to fight in them.
To take on a lone caracal in a caldari defensive plex using sensible tactics you need 2 ceptors/af's to draw npc aggro (they get perma jammed) and then a ship to actually kill the caracal who at that point usually decides to warp off.
Might be better if the warp in point to the plex was the actual button so that an engagement would be more likely.
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Gwenol Velsa
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.12.13 13:31:00 -
[83]
According to Arkady Sadik and No Mauk'Ob from the Fix FW Proposal the use of an off-militia alt to claim a plex with no standings loss is now recognised as a bug.
To knowingly use this bug for gain would be an exploit.
Awaiting official post from CCP on the matter though.
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2009.12.13 14:13:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Gwenol Velsa According to Arkady Sadik and No Mauk'Ob from the Fix FW Proposal the use of an off-militia alt to claim a plex with no standings loss is now recognised as a bug.
To knowingly use this bug for gain would be an exploit.
Awaiting official post from CCP on the matter though.
Very nice.. but will believe it when I see it.. I'd also like to see CCP return the systems this "bug" was used to gain.
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Bad Messenger
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2009.12.14 01:03:00 -
[85]
Currently Standing penalty comes along promotions not by taking plex.
There is many ways to prevent alt to get promotions so actually it does not matter if they are in cross militia if you want to keep opposite faction standings high.
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Myth1
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.12.14 10:32:00 -
[86]
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Gallactica
Gallente Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.12.14 10:39:00 -
[87]
^^ Me
Wouldnt a simple solution to all this exploit crap be to only allow a plex to be captured once all the NPC's are destroyed? - Standings affected accordingly and would eliminate the noob sp alt being able to run them down, or is that too simple?
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Gwenol Velsa
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.12.14 10:46:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Bad Messenger Currently Standing penalty comes along promotions not by taking plex.
There is many ways to prevent alt to get promotions so actually it does not matter if they are in cross militia if you want to keep opposite faction standings high.
Not sure you're entirely correct with that, you have a source?
Either way, if I'm reading No Mauk'Ob correctly, the defect that is under investigation is that taking a plex with an cross-faction character results in no standings change at all.
Being as you've stated earlier in the proposal thread that you are only exploiting this bug to force CCP's hand to paying attention then you have succeed. allow me a few quotes :-
Originally by: Damar Rocarion Now, let me state clearly. This tactic is incredibly lame, broken and stupid. And in fact I feel dirty for doing it.
Originally by: Bad Messenger We...made lamest machine in fw history.
Originally by: Damar Rocarion As said, once CCP declares this an exploit/bug, we stop. It is what we want to happpen.
So congratulations, I believe the bug number is 88013 filed on 2009.12.02 19:35:40 by Arkady Sadik.
But if you're stating that you know of "ways to prevent alt to get promotions" then it sounds to me as if you are deliberately looking for ways to exploit the game mechanics and aren't interested in CCP's bug fixes at all...
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2009.12.14 13:59:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Gwenol Velsa
Originally by: Bad Messenger Currently Standing penalty comes along promotions not by taking plex.
There is many ways to prevent alt to get promotions so actually it does not matter if they are in cross militia if you want to keep opposite faction standings high.
Not sure you're entirely correct with that, you have a source?
Either way, if I'm reading No Mauk'Ob correctly, the defect that is under investigation is that taking a plex with an cross-faction character results in no standings change at all.
Being as you've stated earlier in the proposal thread that you are only exploiting this bug to force CCP's hand to paying attention then you have succeed. allow me a few quotes :-
Originally by: Damar Rocarion Now, let me state clearly. This tactic is incredibly lame, broken and stupid. And in fact I feel dirty for doing it.
Originally by: Bad Messenger We...made lamest machine in fw history.
Originally by: Damar Rocarion As said, once CCP declares this an exploit/bug, we stop. It is what we want to happpen.
So congratulations, I believe the bug number is 88013 filed on 2009.12.02 19:35:40 by Arkady Sadik.
But if you're stating that you know of "ways to prevent alt to get promotions" then it sounds to me as if you are deliberately looking for ways to exploit the game mechanics and aren't interested in CCP's bug fixes at all...
Of course he's just doing it to grief. He's just using the excuse that he's trying to get CCP's attention because it make him sound legit somewhere in his mind.
I'm pretty certain they are still abusing this exploit even today. I was logged on for a bit this morning and saw reports in Militia channel that Caldri were still plexing in Minmatar space.
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Damar Rocarion
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Posted - 2009.12.14 15:13:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Ralnik I'm pretty certain they are still abusing this exploit even today. I was logged on for a bit this morning and saw reports in Militia channel that Caldri were still plexing in Minmatar space.
Has CCP said anywhere officially yet that it's an exploit/bug? If yes, please link.
Damar Rocarion Brigadier General
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