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Cyberstrike2027
Quicksilver Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2012.06.18 14:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Good afternoon all, you'll forgive me if I'm somewhat out of form; I'm more accustomed to fleet politics than that of the boardroom.
My reason for addressing you today is to challenge the capsuleers of New Eden. Some of the old hands may recall huge projects like the ISS and their IPOs, that swept up everyone in this fine community of scheisters, thieves, entrepreneurs, and pirates.
However, that was far from recent, and right now it seems we're in this huge sandbox and everyone is building the same castles, we seem to have hit the 80's and everyone is out for themselves and greed is good, and as for huge "projects" - in it's loosest sense - we have the Goons with hulkageddon; hardly the same calibre or even in the same league and certainly not something the whole community can get behind.
Thus, we are left with a need for a solution. I challenge the community to create something new; there is enthusiasm to be found everywhere in this New Eden, it just requires something to capture it. |
Cyberstrike2027
Quicksilver Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2012.06.18 14:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Perhaps part of the problem lays with the difficulty of raising funds, due to the volume of scammers. So many infact, that it's not even worth scamming anymore; the margins are too low - too many people are doing it. We just need some true innovators to bring something ambitious and far fetched that the community wills to succeed. |
Silas Vitalia
Nobilta Nera
285
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cyberstrike2027 wrote: We just need some true innovators to bring something ambitious and far fetched that the community wills to succeed.
Quite right! I'll start by proposing clonejacks with no prior history and no reputation be banned from bothering the IGS with these sorts of posts.
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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
312
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
I would like capsuleers to start sending me minerals so that I can start on this dyson sphere project I've had running through my head. |
Aria Jenneth
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
74
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
... ha. Um.
Ms. Vitalia's acerbic remarks aside, pilot, what you want is ... kind of difficult to answer. You're challenging us to come up with a challenge-- a popular challenge that can be handled out in the open with full public support.
And not get shredded for a laugh by Goonswarm.
I don't think such a creature exists, or can, at the moment. In order to work these days, a grand design would have to stay quiet. The next great project would probably have to be some grand covert masterpiece that will cause lesser hucksters to throw up their hands in despair.
Paging Istvaan Shogaatsu? |
Cyberstrike2027
Quicksilver Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
I beg your pardon, but I fail to see the need for personal attacks; I have no history because I'm a do-er, I don't spend all my time at summits venting hot air about people who have no history of venting hot air! |
Graelyn
Adamant Edge Aegis Militia
253
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
A Chribba project, maybe?
Shogaatsu might be able to do it.
...probably use some of our money too...
+ Cardinal Graelyn + Owner/Operator, "The Summit" YR113 Amarr Loyalist of the Year
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Cyberstrike2027
Quicksilver Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:... ha. Um.
Ms. Vitalia's acerbic remarks aside, pilot, what you want is ... kind of difficult to answer. You're challenging us to come up with a challenge-- a popular challenge that can be handled out in the open with full public support.
And not get shredded for a laugh by Goonswarm.
I don't think such a creature exists, or can, at the moment. In order to work these days, a grand design would have to stay quiet. The next great project would probably have to be some grand covert masterpiece that will cause lesser hucksters to throw up their hands in despair.
Paging Istvaan Shogaatsu?
I have actually conversed with Mr Shogaatsu many years ago. While I could have mentioned his most infamous scheme, I deliberately left it out as I wanted to convey a tone of a productive nature, to project that ambition and hope that the ISS brought in it's prime.
However, I can appreciate that a big project of the like is extremely fragile and while that bored bunch of geeks are flying around blowing stuff up "because they can" I can't hold out much hope of anything being built that'll attract the attention of the community at large and not those yahoos simultaneously. |
Milo Caman
Anshar Incorporated
51
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote: Quite right! I'll start by proposing clonejacks with no prior history and no reputation be banned from bothering the IGS with these sorts of posts.
Congratulations, you've pinned the precise attitude that kills community, community projects and any kind of long-term progress. |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
370
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Oh, I'd scheme your collective butts off... if it still felt exciting. I fear I'm in a bit of a funk. A depression, really. It seems the more of these blasted "skill points" I accumulate, the more depressed I become. It feels like... the more of them I have, the less I can do with the sum total of them.
Why don't modern ship designers consult with capsuleers when releasing new models? They give us ships and expect us to adapt ourselves to them, rather than adapting the vessels around their most critical and I dare say, most handsome component - in this case, me? The Legion's power grid can easily support another turret battery, yet excessively conservative shipwrights limited it to six guns in gunboat configuration. I've been lobbying for years to get the Retribution's secondary mid-range bay enabled and powered in the common market blueprint - a small victory I claim full credit for - but there's so much else to do...
I find myself pining for the early days of capsuleering, before those idiotic safety regulations regarding the chaining of six heatsinks together made fitting more than four pointless. You know what I really miss? The first releases of the Tech 2 line. First the interceptors... oh how I loved the Crusader. It felt like it had teeth. Then the Heavy Assault class launched, and I was in heaven! Oh how I relished each skillpoint gained in the pursuit of specialization! I felt like a predator in the Zealot!
I've lost that feeling entirely, to be frank. I feel impotent in our modern day's top-of-the-line. Toothless. It feels like for every advantage these new-fangled ships come with, there is a hobbling drawback. Oh good, you lost your tech three, enjoy the brain damage. I used to be a predator in space, and nowadays every third-rate third-generation puke can match cannons with me simply by specializing in a tiny sliver of my encyclopaedic knowledge, or by bringing a friend. There is no edge to capture. No goal to strive toward.
Perhaps there's your grand venture: create a council of capsuleer shipwrights in the vein of the CSM, but devoted to giving us the vessels we ourselves envision, not these back-of-the-line Sleeper scrapings that fry neurons just as frequently as power relays. Give people like me the weapons we desire, and you will make a great many powerful friends. |
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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
312
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
The issue, Captain, is that you expect us all to pitch in and help build "something new", but none of us agree on what sort of "new thing" should be done. What is goose is decidedly not good for the gander, and there are very few projects that people could work on without disagreement.
And this isn't even pointing out the tendency for capsuleers to burn things down just because they have the opportunity. Ms. Jenneth is right. |
Silas Vitalia
Nobilta Nera
285
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Milo Caman wrote:Silas Vitalia wrote: Quite right! I'll start by proposing clonejacks with no prior history and no reputation be banned from bothering the IGS with these sorts of posts.
Congratulations, you've pinned the precise attitude that kills community, community projects and any kind of long-term progress.
I'm sure Cyberstrike and many others would be happy to have your money for "community development." Why don't you go ahead and start donating your personal finances and let me know how that goes.
Working with total strangers on anything involving your own resources is probably the textbook definition of 'gullible."
I've got some lovely oceanfront property on a volcanic world I'd love to sell you, as well.
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Cyberstrike2027
Quicksilver Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2012.06.18 16:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:Milo Caman wrote:Silas Vitalia wrote: Quite right! I'll start by proposing clonejacks with no prior history and no reputation be banned from bothering the IGS with these sorts of posts.
Congratulations, you've pinned the precise attitude that kills community, community projects and any kind of long-term progress. I'm sure Cyberstrike and many others would be happy to have your money for "community development." Why don't you go ahead and start donating your personal finances and let me know how that goes. Working with total strangers on anything involving your own resources is probably the textbook definition of 'gullible." I've got some lovely oceanfront property on a volcanic world I'd love to sell you, as well.
We have since addressed this already, given the current attitude of mistrust - such as your own - makes the integrity of public projects tenuous at best. The ISS was created in an era of prosperity, bordering on naivety, and a few people made a lot of people a lot of money before their operation was lost. But now, similarly scaled projects - mostly banks - all seem to have the same fate only a lot quicker, and each sunk hurts the following attempt. |
Aria Jenneth
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
74
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote:Working with total strangers on anything involving your own resources is probably the textbook definition of 'gullible."
Whereas the textbook definition of "cynic" is probably "One who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing."
... Though perhaps we can add something about one who imputes a con artist's motives to one who has, as of yet, merely mentioned money without ever having even suggested it be provided to any person or entity. At the moment, all I'd feel secure in suspecting him of is wishful thinking.
It would be nice to see some grand project in the works. There have been a few, and not so long ago-- but they all fizzled, one way or another.
I'm not sure that's quite reason enough to say that it's bad to think grandly, though.
Edit:
Make that wishful thinking and trying to produce grand projects vicariously by merely suggesting that it would be neat to produce something grand. |
Rogue Integer
Center for Empyrean Studies
4
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Posted - 2012.06.18 18:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:I would like capsuleers to start sending me minerals so that I can start on this dyson sphere project I've had running through my head.
It's a shame I fear you'd use it for nefarious purposes, because I'd love to discuss the design and applications of a dyson sphere or similar. Perhaps even a matrioshka brain using the most up-to-date quantum computing technologies.
But you'd probably use it for the glory of your messiah, Sansha. What a waste of human potential. |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
312
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Rogue Integer wrote:Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:I would like capsuleers to start sending me minerals so that I can start on this dyson sphere project I've had running through my head. It's a shame I fear you'd use it for nefarious purposes, because I'd love to discuss the design and applications of a dyson sphere or similar. Perhaps even a matrioshka brain using the most up-to-date quantum computing technologies. But you'd probably use it for the glory of your messiah, Sansha. What a waste of human potential.
My lord, every time we talk, you always bring up Sansha Sansha Sansha. It's like you look at me and cannot see anything else.
You think about Sansha more often than most National's do. You should think about that. |
Rogue Integer
Center for Empyrean Studies
4
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Posted - 2012.06.18 18:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
No, only when I'm discussing matters with you. It rarely comes up outside of that.
But when I see somebody who pledges their undying allegiance to a man you'd like to have the entire cluster follow, including even determining what we shouldn't be allowed to think, then yeah, it's more than a minor aspect of your identity. |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
314
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Posted - 2012.06.18 19:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
I have never once, in any of our conversations, brought up Sansha's Nation. You do it. Every time.
When you are thinking about the Master more often than the people who want to be his slaves, you should probably reconsider which side you should actually be on.
Anyways, a dyson sphere, or something like it, is going to be required for humanity at some point. I would be happy to discuss the topic with you at some point.
However, you did serve to adequately prove my point about ganders and geese. Thank you for that. |
Rogue Integer
Center for Empyrean Studies
5
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Posted - 2012.06.18 19:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
Yes, I'm preparing a separate post to discuss large research projects here, outside of the scope of the metaproposal listed above. Rather than focus on scoundrels, thieves, and entrepeneurs, perhaps we can find a way to structure new research that maintains enough transparency that the information can be used by and for all humanity, rather than any single faction or coalition that could use it for Bad Things. |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
314
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
Rogue Integer wrote:Yes, I'm preparing a separate post to discuss large research projects here, outside of the scope of the metaproposal listed above. Rather than focus on scoundrels, thieves, and entrepeneurs, perhaps we can find a way to structure new research that maintains enough transparency that the information can be used by and for all humanity, rather than any single faction or coalition that could use it for Bad Things.
The Arek'Jellan project already attempted this and failed. |
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Silas Vitalia
Nobilta Nera
285
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
The Arek'Jellan project already attempted this and failed.
Stop being cynical, good sir! You are killing community projects with that sort of attitude.
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Aria Jenneth
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
76
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Rogue Integer wrote:Yes, I'm preparing a separate post to discuss large research projects here, outside of the scope of the metaproposal listed above. Rather than focus on scoundrels, thieves, and entrepeneurs, perhaps we can find a way to structure new research that maintains enough transparency that the information can be used by and for all humanity, rather than any single faction or coalition that could use it for Bad Things. The Arek'Jellan project already attempted this and failed.
As did SYNE before it (though "failure" is relative: we didn't find quite what we were looking for, but we did find quite a bit).
Also, Mr. Thessalonia, it should not be surprising if the audience is more conscious of the puppeteer than are the figures on stage, even those who don't currently have strings attached. This is particularly true when that puppeteer keeps snatching members of the audience and adding them to the play.
It behooves potential prey items to be wary of a predator, and, in this sense, you are merely one talon on something much larger than yourself, "free-willed" or not. No one sane and separate can look at you and not see your Master. |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
314
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote: It behooves potential prey items to be wary of a predator, and, in this sense, you are merely one talon on something much larger than yourself, "free-willed" or not. No one sane and separate can look at you and not see your Master.
Your own boss said something once, in another thread: Sometimes, people miss the trees for the forest.
Thank you for yet more proof of why no grand 'capsuleer-wide' project will work, though. We all seek different things, sometimes widely divergent things. Sometimes the things we seek are mutually exclusive.
As a diplomat, I see it as my job to look for those things that are not mutually exclusive and capitalize on them for the good of The Foundations. However, in times when those opportunities are not available... well, I still can fly a ship, yes? |
Aria Jenneth
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
78
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Your own boss said something once, in another thread: Sometimes, people miss the trees for the forest.
Given a singularly carnivorous "forest," you may just have to excuse people for not noticing if your particular tree is not identically aggressive, Mr. Thessalonia. Your statement that you work diplomatic angles for the advantage of The Foundations, which I would analyze as your particular (again, carnivorous) forest grove, gives further cause for caution.
Naturally, our entirely justified mistrust is an obstacle to joint projects. |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
314
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
I'd be more disturbed, frankly, if I was using my diplomatic talents towards some other good. Are WHG diplomats accustomed towards working towards the sole groups of other megacorps? |
Cyberstrike2027
Quicksilver Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2012.06.18 20:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Aria Jenneth wrote: It behooves potential prey items to be wary of a predator, and, in this sense, you are merely one talon on something much larger than yourself, "free-willed" or not. No one sane and separate can look at you and not see your Master.
Your own boss said something once, in another thread: Sometimes, people miss the trees for the forest. Thank you for yet more proof of why no grand 'capsuleer-wide' project will work, though. We all seek different things, sometimes widely divergent things. Sometimes the things we seek are mutually exclusive. As a diplomat, I see it as my job to look for those things that are not mutually exclusive and capitalize on them for the good of The Foundations. However, in times when those opportunities are not available... well, I still can fly a ship, yes?
I believe I may have been misunderstood. When I say "every can get behind" I'm speaking figuratively, not literally; I refer to the majority who want to see it succeed, even if not directly involved, as opposed to the minority who just want to **** all over the plans. It's like the sandbox analogy, you have the bystanders, watching with awe a person, or group of people, creating something fantastic, possibly lending a hand themselves, then there's some others who just want to tread all over it. Of course there always will be, but I just hope the ratio has not shifted so much as that these prevent any attempt being made. When I talk of the community willing a project to succeed, I mean that the bystanders stop the wreckers from getting to the sand sculpture, or make a scenario where anyone who ruins it would be so unpopular they would not want to.
ISS was flawed in this respect since the chosen system penned in the IAC, to expand the IAC was forced to take directive action, and there are those who appreciate their situation, myself among them. |
Aria Jenneth
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
80
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:I'd be more disturbed, frankly, if I was using my diplomatic talents towards some other good. Are WHG diplomats accustomed towards working towards the sole groups of other megacorps?
Ha. Cute.
Strange as it may seem, Mr. Thessalonia, it's a novelty to encounter a Nation diplomat who doesn't claim to be working primarily for the greater good of all humankind, or, at the very least, for the good of the Nation as a whole (which is invariably presented as the self-same thing). I'm inclined to take your apparently narrower focus as a further sign that you are not, yourself, chipped. Yet.
... which I wouldn't take too much comfort in: it means you managed to get into your extremely lamentable position by virtue of your own unfortunate neurons.
Shall we return to the original topic? |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
315
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
Aria Jenneth wrote:Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:I'd be more disturbed, frankly, if I was using my diplomatic talents towards some other good. Are WHG diplomats accustomed towards working towards the sole groups of other megacorps? Ha. Cute. Strange as it may seem, Mr. Thessalonia, it's a novelty to encounter a Nation diplomat who doesn't claim to be working primarily for the greater good of all humankind, or, at the very least, for the good of the Nation as a whole (which is invariably presented as the self-same thing). I'm inclined to take your apparently narrower focus as a further sign that you are not, yourself, chipped. Yet. ... which I wouldn't take too much comfort in: it means you managed to get into your extremely lamentable position by virtue of your own unfortunate neurons. Shall we return to the original topic?
I have True Slave Foundation's Networking Implants in my head and am therefore part of that greater collective.
Of course I believe that I am working towards the greater good of all humanity; This has always been my goal, even pre-Nation. However, I cannot work for humanity as a whole and so I have to focus my efforts towards that part of it that I would nurture and grow.
Have you ever grown a plant, Ms. Jenneth? The process is similar.
This actually ties into the original discussion! How fortuitous!
Any co-operative initiative that is open to all is, as you have said in another post in a related topic, either going to fail, or be too limited in it's scope to "be any fun".
I can work with CONCORD signatories for limited engagements; I did so, for instance, to help rescue a mutual friend. I would willingly provide details on any non-military quality-of-life technologies to people whom, by my allegiance, I would be forced to class as enemies of the foundations (One of my first acts as a Nation loyalist was to give plans for upgraded food production centers to a friend of mine, for instance).
However, the wider the group, the better a chance there will be someone I would not be willing to work with at all (the EoM and the Angel Cartel spring to mind), or whom I would not share a particular piece of information with (Wormhole technology or knowledge with anyone who might pose the least threat to the New Promised Land, not that I have this technology).
So, as with all things, we must talk about limits. Do we limit our scope, or our membership? Some balance of the two, no doubt.
A'J failed because it tried to let everyone into the treefort. The error of this line of thinking came about when Myxx decided she wanted to create a ship-portable dooms-day device (which no one would work with her on). It further failed when it drove out it's Nation loyalists (minus Guthris) by proposing to study the Sansha's Nation wormhole technology to discover the location of the Promised Land, directly leading to the call for us to burn Arek'Jellan to the ground (so National's withdrew themselves).
There is, unfortunately, no way to perfectly balance these two competing limits. No perfect option exists as long as attitudes are divided. |
Aria Jenneth
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
80
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:A'J failed because it tried to let everyone into the treefort.
My impression was that it failed at a more fundamental level because its heart got disappeared (as opposed to "ripped out," though there may have been ripping involved). The wages of upsetting one major government too many, perhaps.
I do agree that there is no perfect balance. The question is whether there is a functional one, and the answer is clearly "yes"-- at least insofar as we can achieve results before it all goes to bits. Take the invention of the cloaking device, for instance. |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
315
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:52:00 -
[30] - Quote
Oh, certainly a functional balance is possible, but I think it is very much a situation of "Operational Time; Wide reaching scientific input; Useful results. Pick Two" |
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