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Idris Mandela
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
33
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Posted - 2012.06.18 14:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
Lets start with an RL example:
AWACs and Fighter Jets. So in RL Jets may have their own radar (lets just say this is equivalent to the Dscan), but for obvious reasons they cannot field a radar as powerful as the one on the AWACS (lets say that this is equivalent to combat probing).
So the AWACs detects enemy jets and then transmits that data to the jets who then engage the enemy depending on their own circumstances. The AWACs by its nature is not one to actually come anywhere near the enemy., simply because it would be suicidal to get into range of the enemy fighters.
So, a few of days ago I was in an FW fleet and we were playing a game of cat and mouse with a couple of Talos BCs. Long story short they were in a SS, and no one had a probe as most people were flying DPS.
Now the things is I was in my Blackbird, I didnt even consider putting a probe launcher because as per the current mechanics probing down the enemy and then warping @ zero to the enemy would put me smack on top of them which is the last place a Blackbird should be. It is simply put the equivalent of having the AWACs flying to the location of the ENEMY and then telling its allied fighters to come shoot the hostiles. Not a great idea.
There would be no point warping at your optimal, which is like 70km with average skills anyway. By the time people burn to the targets they would be long gone.
So in this regard we have Cov-ops. The problem with Cov-ops other than the initial training and ship costs is that well - you really are in no position to be a KM *****. Sure you may decloak to take a few pot shots at the hostiles and hope like hell that the hostiles are top busy with other matters to note oh so soft and tempting behind.
In FW especially I have noted a lot of newbie players as well as old players who fly heavy dps. Few peeps are willing to sacrifice a high slot except you guess it - EW pilots - other than Amarr ofcourse.
So what am I suggesting?
Simply allow Probers to use the Broadcast window to broadcast the warp in location of the scanned down hostiles. FCs can designate broadcast rights for Intelligence to a prober who can then scan down the hostiles > right click on the system scan location > Broadcast.
This would mean people in support roles such as EW can still be usefull in using a high slot without being the first to warp in on the grid.
But what about Cov-ops you say? Havent they been made redundant? Well to begin with Covops have bonuses to scanning anyway that no other ships except the T1 variants have. A Cov op pilot is still very useful in gathering intel data even without probing as well as providing specific warp in location when on grid.
All in all the overlap in my estimation would be minimal. Yet the possibilities for even more versatility for T1 ships become more fruitful.
Discuss. And please try to READ the post in FULL before you post. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1252
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Posted - 2012.06.18 14:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
1) IRL analogies are pretty useless, due to this being a game about internet space ships.
2) Fly a falcon and put an expanded probe launcher on it.
3) Learn to fleet warp. Then press ctrl+space and follow fleet at range.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Omega Industries
114
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Not a bad idea. The cov ops have enough roles already that I don't think the small reduction in cov ops uses will be a problem.
+1 |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
1796
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
The actual message of your post was badly diluted by un-important RL facts (this is a game, not RL, not everything translates 1:1) and your personal stories about the matter. You would have been better served to simply post your idea straight up instead.
That said, have you checked if it's possible to warp fleet from the right-click menu in the probing interface? If so, you can get warping privileges from the FC and then initiate warp for your fleet to that point. Either that or you could just probe them down and drop a BM for your FC to warp everyone to the point.
There are ways to work through the situation right now, I don't think we need CCP messing with stuff that is working ok already. |
Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
23
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
Idris Mandela wrote:Discuss.
->
Simi Kusoni wrote:1) IRL analogies are pretty useless, due to this being a game about internet space ships.
2) Fly a falcon and put an expanded probe launcher on it.
3) Learn to fleet warp. Then press ctrl+space and follow fleet at range.
/thread
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Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
93
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Posted - 2012.06.18 16:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Idris Mandela wrote:Lets start with an RL example:
Stopped reading there. Try again.
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Varg Krugar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2012.06.18 17:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Learn to fleet warp. Then press ctrl+space and follow fleet at range. yes that does work, creating a corp bookmark for the scan result would be another solution. but both are workarounds for a feature that is obviously missing. and that would be the "found them, go get 'em" button that allows your fleet to warp to the scan result, regardless of corp membership or position in the fleet structure.
OP does need a proper executive summary w/o the story tho |
Idris Mandela
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
mxzf wrote:The actual message of your post was badly diluted by un-important RL facts (this is a game, not RL, not everything translates 1:1) and your personal stories about the matter. You would have been better served to simply post your idea straight up instead.
I thought an analogy would be useful to illustrate my point, so meh. Deleted the example.
Quote: That said, have you checked if it's possible to warp fleet from the right-click menu in the probing interface? If so, you can get warping privileges from the FC and then initiate warp for your fleet to that point.
Yeah see the problem there is in an FW (or any equivalent pickup) fleet do you REALLY want to give someone else warp to rights?
Quote: Either that or you could just probe them down and drop a BM for your FC to warp everyone to the point.
There are ways to work through the situation right now, I don't think we need CCP messing with stuff that is working ok already.
Dropping a BM means going through more steps than would be actually required when compared to a broadcast and as Varg mentioned above also means dealing with corp / fleet structure. A simple broadcast is hardly going to break anything so I dont see what should be a common sense addition will somehow break anything.
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1255
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Idris Mandela wrote:Yeah see the problem there is in an FW (or any equivalent pickup) fleet do you REALLY want to give someone else warp to rights? So what's the difference between a spy having squad warp privileges and being able to create a false warp broadcast?
Whilst yes, I understand the spy could in theory fleet warp you to a hostile POS. But a scout spy in the same position without warp privileges could broadcast the POS anyway.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Idris Mandela
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:1) IRL analogies are pretty useless, due to this being a game about internet space ships.
The idea of an analogy is not to make a 1:1 comparison but to illustrate a point. Though I guess that on these forums last thing I should have expected is people being able to do just that.
Quote: 2) Fly a falcon and put an expanded probe launcher on it.
Sure. In a month or two. More to the point completely irrelevant to the thread since this is not about uber cloaky ships with shinny t2 but about a simple addition to broadcasts.
Quote:3) Learn to fleet warp. Then press ctrl+space and follow fleet at range.
Assuming I am FC, which I am not, Assuming the FC would be give me fleet warp rights, which I hope you know this - is generally a bad idea unless you really know the guy. |
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Idris Mandela
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
33
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Posted - 2012.06.18 17:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote: So what's the difference between a spy having squad warp privileges and being able to create a false warp broadcast?
Whilst yes, I understand the spy could in theory fleet warp you to a hostile POS. But a scout spy in the same position without warp privileges could broadcast the POS anyway.
As compared to getting fleet warp rights? Somehow BROADCASTING is WORSE than Warp rights? Yeah that makes sense.
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1255
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
Idris Mandela wrote:Quote: 2) Fly a falcon and put an expanded probe launcher on it. Sure. In a month or two. More to the point completely irrelevant to the thread since this is not about uber cloaky ships with shinny t2 but about a simple addition to broadcasts. It's not really irrelevant when covert ops ships, and especially recons, are designed for this role.
Idris Mandela wrote:Quote:3) Learn to fleet warp. Then press ctrl+space and follow fleet at range. Assuming I am FC, which I am not, Assuming the FC would be give me fleet warp rights, which I hope you know this - is generally a bad idea unless you really know the guy. I just noticed below you claim broadcasting is worse than fleet warping? Hardly, in practice it is exactly the same thing. The only difference is the intermediate step of the FC giving the warp-to command.
Unless he deliberately warps ahead of fleet to check out the destination, the end result is the same. And I'm sure I don't need to tell you that the FC (or anyone else for the matter) warping solo into an enemy fleet is a bad idea.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Idris Mandela
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Idris Mandela wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote: So what's the difference between a spy having squad warp privileges and being able to create a false warp broadcast?
Whilst yes, I understand the spy could in theory fleet warp you to a hostile POS. But a scout spy in the same position without warp privileges could broadcast the POS anyway.
As compared to getting fleet warp rights? Somehow BROADCASTING is WORSE than Warp rights? Yeah that makes sense.
Oh and btw. In a broadcast *I* can choose my warp in distance, in a fleet warp in, the FC chooses the warp in distance. Thats a FREAKING huge difference. |
Idris Mandela
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:[quote=Idris Mandela] It's not really irrelevant when covert ops ships, and especially recons, are designed for this role.
So..cov ops wouldnt use such a feature anyway? yeah sure tell that to cov ops pilots who have lost ships because thier own peeps would warp in at zero. Oh and No. Recons DO NOT Have bonuses to probing ONLY Cov ops do. Nice that you know that.
Quote:I just noticed below you claim broadcasting is worse than fleet warping? Hardly, in practice it is exactly the same thing. The only difference is the intermediate step of the FC giving the warp-to command.
Excuse me? I made the EXACT OPPOSITE Claim. Do you not get that? Wow.
Quote: Unless he deliberately warps ahead of fleet to check out the destination, the end result is the same. And I'm sure I don't need to tell you that the FC (or anyone else for the matter) warping solo into an enemy fleet is a bad idea.
Actually no. Broadcasts *I* get to decide the range at which to warp in, Fleet warps do not have that privilige.
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1255
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Idris Mandela wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote: It's not really irrelevant when covert ops ships, and especially recons, are designed for this role.
So..cov ops wouldnt use such a feature anyway? yeah sure tell that to cov ops pilots who have lost ships because thier own peeps would warp in at zero. Oh and No. Recons DO NOT Have bonuses to probing ONLY Cov ops do. Nice that you know that. Unlike you, I can fly recons (falcons and rapiers). I'm well aware of their bonuses, and their intended roles.
As for your fleets warping to zero on stationary covert ops scouts... maybe your issue is just needing to find better fleet members/scouts?
Idris Mandela wrote:Quote:I just noticed below you claim broadcasting is worse than fleet warping? Hardly, in practice it is exactly the same thing. The only difference is the intermediate step of the FC giving the warp-to command. Excuse me? I made the EXACT OPPOSITE Claim. Do you not get that? Wow. Typo, was meant to read: "I just noticed below you say I claim".
My points still stand, there are already plenty of in game methods of getting warp ins. If you don't want to use them, don't trust your scouts and don't want to learn to fly covert ops ships, then that is your problem.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Varg Krugar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:48:00 -
[16] - Quote
can you guys stop fighting please? i like that "broadcast scan result location" suggestion and your **** fencing just drowns it in testosterone or worse. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1777
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
I'd prefer the ability to link a location in chat so that people could warp to or bookmark it. Corp bookmarks can take MINUTES to propagate to all online corp members, and even then anyone not in corp with the scanner would still have to be fleet warped or wait for someone to land. It makes sense for a fleet to be able to transmit coordinates.
edit: as for having to warp to zero: you need better scouts. One of my favorite moments in Eve was when I positioned a Pilgrim 10 km off an enemy POS rep fleet and had a 4-man fleet warp to a planet and then to me, at 10 km. They landed directly on the rep fleet and wiped 3 of the 4 ships before they could hit the shields. We fought under active POS guns and got everyone in one piece
All done without probes to alert the enemy, before corp bookmarks, and completely on the fly. There's nothing quite like a little creativity to win the day. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Idris Mandela
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
33
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I'd prefer the ability to link a location in chat so that people could warp to or bookmark it. Corp bookmarks can take MINUTES to propagate to all online corp members, and even then anyone not in corp with the scanner would still have to be fleet warped or wait for someone to land. It makes sense for a fleet to be able to transmit coordinates.
Well yeah thats the whole point. Fleets shold have better intelligence tools and the broadcast system IMO is the best way to do that, would a BM>Fleet Chat also do the trick? sure but keep in mind that a broadcast is in one way a compressed chat window which only shows the most pertinent info, unlike fleet chat which can tend to be clutter with other info - i.e other system scouts informing on hostiles, people doing a head count etc.
Quote:edit: as for having to warp to zero: you need better scouts. One of my favorite moments in Eve was when I positioned a Pilgrim 10 km off an enemy POS rep fleet and had a 4-man fleet warp to a planet and then to me, at 10 km. They landed directly on the rep fleet and wiped 3 of the 4 ships before they could hit the shields. We fought under active POS guns and got everyone in one piece All done without probes to alert the enemy, before corp bookmarks, and completely on the fly. There's nothing quite like a little creativity to win the day.
Its not a matter of better scouts far from it. We were once doing a major wolf pack roam, it was done by a very good FC who flew cov ops and what no one knew at the time was there was a jackass in fleet, so when the FC told everyone to warp to him @ 10 / Optimal (which was the SOP anyway) this guy deliberately warped to zero, and bumped him, cloak dropped > AF Pointed > Dead.
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AeonOfTime
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 12:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
+1.
Being able to broadcast a location and warping to it was something I expected to already be in the game when I started flying in fleets. I was a bit disappointed to see that you can only broadcast the system you are in.
Obviously some thought has to be given to the implementation, since the fc must still be in control of who gets the information. The pilot who scanned down hostiles should not be able to broadcast the coordinates to the fleet.
The way I see it, it could be done a bit like this:
1) Pilot scans down hostiles 2) The pilot sends the coordinates to his FC (in which form is to be determined) 3) The fc chooses who may get the info, and broadcasts the coordinates 4) Fleet members can warp to the coordinates using the broadcast
If the FC has specific requirements for fleet members like warp to distance, I would assume he does this through regular channels (fleet chat/voice...). |
Efraya
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
100
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 13:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Surely you must be joking. The mechanics are in place already and are perfectly adequate.
Come to wspace to learn how to combat probe like a pro.
WSpace; Best space. |
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Idris Mandela
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
37
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Posted - 2012.06.20 06:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
/bump |
Idris Mandela
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
37
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Posted - 2012.06.21 15:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
/bump |
Idris Mandela
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
38
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Posted - 2012.06.23 03:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
/bump |
hired gunman
Knights of Neraka Hades.
0
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Posted - 2012.06.23 03:44:00 -
[24] - Quote
[Discuss. And please try to READ the post in FULL before you post.[/quote]
Why would you put that at the end who's going to read the whole post if its at the end :p |
hired gunman
Knights of Neraka Hades.
0
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Posted - 2012.06.23 03:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
Idris Mandela wrote:mxzf wrote:The actual message of your post was badly diluted by un-important RL facts (this is a game, not RL, not everything translates 1:1) and your personal stories about the matter. You would have been better served to simply post your idea straight up instead. I thought an analogy would be useful to illustrate my point, so meh. Deleted the example. Quote: That said, have you checked if it's possible to warp fleet from the right-click menu in the probing interface? If so, you can get warping privileges from the FC and then initiate warp for your fleet to that point.
Yeah see the problem there is in an FW (or any equivalent pickup) fleet do you REALLY want to give someone else warp to rights? Quote: Either that or you could just probe them down and drop a BM for your FC to warp everyone to the point.
There are ways to work through the situation right now, I don't think we need CCP messing with stuff that is working ok already.
Dropping a BM means going through more steps than would be actually required when compared to a broadcast and as Varg mentioned above also means dealing with corp / fleet structure. A simple broadcast is hardly going to break anything so I dont see what should be a common sense addition will somehow break the game.
QUESTION? why fly to the target and alert them that YOU NO WHERE THEY ARE! they will warp off before you can even get fleet there and then failed work around starts over again,,,,,
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Busta Rock
The DawnSoarers
0
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Posted - 2012.06.23 05:21:00 -
[26] - Quote
I LOVE this idea. something many of the naysayers in this thread are overlooking is that this would provide a much needed symbiosis between probers and fast frigates/interceptors, in essence enhancing the roles and usefulness of BOTH. to understand exactly what I am talking about, it is necessary to understand that there are TWO overall types of combat warpin, these are (A) TACTICAL and (B) STRATEGIC.
for example:
- TACTICAL usage:
in the vast majority of pvp cases, non-cloaking but safespotted ships are actively MWDing and simply cannot be caught by ANY cloaker... by the time the cloaked prober arrives on grid, the target is already OFF grid, or damn close to it, and doesnt even have to bother with warping away. while a covops ship *MIGHT* be able to catch up with such a target by decloaking and MWDing themselves, such a move would be suicidal (by extension insanely STUPID), and by the time fast tackler backup arrives, well... they just wasted their time unless they fleet warped simultaneously, which would require that the prober at least have scout or squad leadership roles in fleet, as well as a squad with suitable composition for high speed pursuit and tackling. also, having the prober onsite in that kind of situation is a waste of time for the prober, who should be able to focus more on keeping the probe net focused on the target, or redirecting the net to search for other targets.
I think it can be safely said that probers - be they covops, force recons or whatever are (at present) outright terrible at providing tactical warpins on highly mobile targets. against safespotted targets that dont move much like oh... afk battleships, they're perfectly fine.
- STRATEGIC usage
these types of warpins are provided primarily by cloaked ships taking a great deal of risk to get into just the right position to provide ideal positioning of fleet assets against target forces. Floppie earlier wrote:
Quote:as for having to warp to zero: you need better scouts. One of my favorite moments in Eve was when I positioned a Pilgrim 10 km off an enemy POS rep fleet and had a 4-man fleet warp to a planet and then to me, at 10 km. They landed directly on the rep fleet and wiped 3 of the 4 ships before they could hit the shields. We fought under active POS guns and got everyone in one piece Cool
All done without probes to alert the enemy, before corp bookmarks, and completely on the fly. There's nothing quite like a little creativity to win the day.
the above is an ideal example of a strategic warpin, and the role for which covert ops and force recon ships are specifically designed for. at the same time, it illustrates exactly what such ships are completely unsuited for, which is target interception at remote locations within a system (ie tactical).
in summary:
adding a warpin broadcast option would permit an enhanced use of fast frigate/interceptor vessels in a symbiotic relationship with probe equipped ships (especially covops/probe frigates) in tactical situations. it would allow fast tacklers (and possibly combat recons) to be the FIRST arrivals at a target location (which they are supposed to be), thus giving them a much better chance to successfully engage highly mobile targets that have to this point been (in most conditions) untouchable... in tactical situations, this is highly desirable. even if the extra step of the FC/WC being the only one to receive a warpin broadcast is deemed necessary, allowing said FC/WC the option to specifically relay that broadcast to a specific wing or squad would be an excellent means to manage fleet performance. |
Idris Mandela
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
39
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Posted - 2012.06.25 01:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
/bump |
Varg Krugar
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2012.06.25 18:51:00 -
[28] - Quote
addendum to tactical warp-ins and fleet warps: the fast interceptors warp at 13.5 AU/s (possibly faster with rigs), a trait that may be lost on a fleet warp (if they don't get into warp before the rest, which is likely). |
Mary Annabelle
State War Academy Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 19:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
+1
This sounds like a good tool for fleets.
Noone has to use it, but for those that can it will be awesome. |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
42
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 21:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
ITT: yet another example of someone proposing a solution to a non-existing problem because they are too lazy to learn how to do it properly. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
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