sandbox = we must have badly abused mechanics that make pvp optional
thanks for that contribution

We've already heard the "'sandbox' means we have to preserve bad mechanics that are endlessly abused through alts to the detriment of the game" argument already, thanks.

NPC corps have to go as they punish newbies, disincentivise working collectively (in an MMO no less), flood highsec with commodities due to a lack of ability of highsec players to effectively compete over resources, make nullsec logistics effectively invulnerable and in the process close the door to 0.0 for the vast majority of industrialists/miners. They don't protect newbies and the few benefits they provide could be equally delivered through the existence of a shared chat channel so unaffiliated players can talk.

Your listing of specific things NPC corp members can't do is disingenuous - EVE is a game that rewards specialization, as CCP is quick to point out. So long as your NPC corp character is specializing something that synergizes with 100% CONCORD protection (like say mining, or freighter hauling) - there is no tradeoff, just benefit.

There's really no justification for NPC corps, decable or not. They need to be removed altogether and just make characters work in de facto one-man corps. that are decable, where wardec corps can decide which players are rich and vulnerable enough to be worth taking a go at, and others are truly too casual and new to be worth the effort.

Sandbox = PVP is optional
Sandbox = PVE is optional
Sandbox = anything is optional

Though PVP is only optional for those who decide to PVP,, as there is non-consentual PVP in this game.

That EVE has lots of bad mechanics and a plethora of bad physics is not new, but is a different topic.

This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness.

Fairness? LOL

CCP Soundwave has already stated that EVE isn't supposed to be fair. You are either in a large nullsec corp or you quit the game at this point.

EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe".

So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's?

Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it.

In response to this, i have written the following:

I donGGVt like it, when you turn my voice about
I donGGVt like it, when you vote one nation out
My language has been murdered, my language has been murdered
My shopping trolley murdered, my groceries just gone!

I donGGVt like it, when you turn my voice about
I donGGVt like it, when you vote one nation out
My language has been murdered, my language has been murdered
My shopping trolley murdered, my groceries just gone!

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 racist, rubbish, racist hate.
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 racist, rubbish, racist

feel the heat

I donGGVt like it, when ummGG* railway lines are white
I donGGVt like it when ummGG* day becomes night

My language has been murdered, my language has been murdered
My shopping trolley murdered, my groceries just gone!

I donGGVt like it, no, no, no I donGGVt never did,
I donGGVt like it, I donGGVt like anything!
I donGGVt like it, no, no, no I donGGVt know where near
I donGGVt like it, I donGGVt like anything!

Please explain, why canGGVt my blood be coloured white
I should talk to some medical doctors, coloured blood is just not right

I donGGVt like anything, I cant do anything about it

But I like dancing, and I like the disco
Coz I left my heart, in san fransisco, yeah!

Feel the heat on the street, dance to the beat out of your seat
Feel the heat on the street, dance to the beat out of your seat

Get down, get down, down, down
I donGGVt like anything, except I like neil diamond, yeah!

Disco dance, disco dance
Lets go nation, not a chance
Disco dance, disco dance
Out of my tree, out of my branch

I donGGVt like it, no, no, no I donGGVt never did,
I donGGVt like it, I donGGVt like anything!
I donGGVt like it, no, no, no I donGGVt, I donGGVt care
I donGGVt like it, I donGGVt like anything!

I donGGVt like a puppet without strings
Theres a muppet in the wings
And its saying racist things, I wont cop that, no way

I, I, I, I donGGVt like anything

Video killed the racist star,
Howard won the **** you are,
But he's on the scrap-heap too,
A bit of a downer.

I donGGVt like anything, I cant do anything about it

But I like dancing, and I like the disco
Coz I left my heart, in san fransisco, yeah!

Feel the heat on the street, dance to the beat out of your seat
Feel the heat on the street, dance to the beat out of your seat

I donGGVt like it, no, no, no I donGGVt never did,
I donGGVt like it, I donGGVt like anything!
I donGGVt like it, no, no, no I donGGVt, I donGGVt care
I donGGVt like it, I donGGVt like anything!

No the whole thing is wrong, and it stinks and I donGGVt like it

Everything in that statement is incorrect. Large null sec Alliances getting together and making each other blue while endorsing NBSI policy and constantly doing blob ganks on Industrialists/Miners is what closed the door to 0.0 space.

Bottom line, you're promoting a change that will force everyone to engage in one aspect of this game, basically removing the players right to choose. There's other SyFy space games available that are strictly PvP with only player corps and no NPC corps. DarkSpace is like that.

[Mining or Freighter Hauling is not 100% Concord protected in high security. The current trend and amount of suicide ganks in high security proves that.

Indeed. There's no reason for large alliances to bring in miners and industrialists when they can just use NPC corp freighter alts to move supplies from trade hubs without any inconvenience. Recruiting miners and small-scale industrialists (aka a lot of newbies) is just a needless liability - on the Fanfest 2012 it turned out that the more developed a 0.0 alliance was, the less and less null manufacturing they actually did. The space of Stainwagon renters turned out to be more industrially active then the entire CFC. So miners and industrialists are stuck in highsec where they are forced to compete economically against people who do not have to factor in the costs of wardecs - aka PVE alts in NPC corps. With that in context, I fail to see how the existence of NPC corps truly benefits the small-scale industrialist/miner.

There's no reason for large alliances to bring in miners and industrialists when they can just use NPC corp freighter alts to move supplies from trade hubs without any inconvenience.

Recruiting miners and small-scale industrialists (aka a lot of newbies) is just a needless liability - on the Fanfest 2012 it turned out that the more developed a 0.0 alliance was, the less and less null manufacturing they actually did. The space of Stainwagon renters turned out to be more industrially active then the entire CFC. So miners and industrialists are stuck in highsec where they are forced to compete economically against people who do not have to factor in the costs of wardecs - aka PVE alts in NPC corps. With that in context, I fail to see how the existence of NPC corps truly benefits the small-scale industrialist/miner.

I'm promoting a change that will merely treat all players equally, to the benefit of everyone.

There's not much "choice" involved in EVE as far as PVP goes already.
The problem is that suicide ganking is too easily avoided, or at least made cost-ineffective.

Too right! We should introduce some kind of mechanic that would hurt large null sec corps!

I know! Lets remove their ability to use NPC hauler alts! Wow full circle!

I'm not entirely sure why I tried writing an entire post with exclamation marks, but all said and done I'm happy with the results.

So simply ban alts. There a simple solution

So simply ban alts. There a simple solution, NPC corps are allowed for new and casual players and it still eliminates the actual problem.

So simply ban alts. There a simple solution, NPC corps are allowed for new and casual players and it still eliminates the actual problem.

Of course this would MASSIVELY cut into CCP's profit margin.... just like the original stupid suggestion.

People really need to understand that CCP is trying to attract the largest number of players, and to do that they have to balance some rather extreme expectations and demands. Which in itself shows off CCP's masterful balancing act that they do on a daily basis. Most other MMO's give you different servers to enjoy while CCP made it a massive sandbox. So let us all enjoy Eve the way Eve is and not make it one ridicules extreme.

!!!PURE SARCASM!!!
But if we have to make it one extreme, let it be mass nudity in all its internet deprivation to give new players and kids a creepy look into the filth that is on the internet.
!!!END OF PURE SARCASM!!!

As usual you people get it wrong.

The correct approach is to teach people to WANT to PvP, not to make game mechanics grab them by the nutsacks and hold them steady while you melt them in RR + Falcon + T3 PvP ships.

This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fairness.

Newbies should be protected to a point yes, but players who can affect the game in any way AFTER a newbie period (as in my other post, I suggest 6 months) should be liable to experience the negative aspects of the game in full. One of those negative aspects is being involved in a war. [[spelling corrected]]

EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe".

So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's?

Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it.

I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps.

Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave...

Thoughts?


NPC corps =/= Noob corps. they're different entities. NPC corps can only be entered after a player leaves a player corporation.

Children, please think your suggestions through before making them:

NPC corps of this type exist for three reasons:

a) to hold toons between corps (disband, thrown out etc)

b) people who are parking their toon because they are not going to use it and the last corp have rules on activity

c) trading/mining/hauling/mining alts

Everyone else hides in their own small toonfarm vanity corp, which if wardec, would be easily parked and has zero tax. Or, go and hide in eve uni or some other large low tax/zero tax corp/alliance with decent defensive capabilities or good CTA station camping rules.

So your "solution" is in search of a problem.

It also has a bigger problem. Most NPC corp members are alts of experienced players with corps that can surely kick your ass. If this were to be enabled, in less than a month no one would wardec NPC corps for fear of retribution. I mean, imaging you wardec, shoot down a freighter full of moon goo. And it belongs, say, to the Goons.

Your corp is ******.

So yeah, sounds like a good idea, until it doesn't.

Please google "law of unintended consequences"...

Besides, until the war-dec system is comletely overhauled and fixed to stop shedding, shielding, dogpiling and all the other crap, it's pretty much useless.

If you bothered to read the thread, instead of skipping to the last page for defensive rage posting, you'd realise that the OP's views are not those shared by the majority of players.

We recognise the need for genuine newbie protection, and as Nicolo has pointed out on multiple occasions the current system raises their profile as targets whilst allowing us older, more experienced players some very questionable mechanics to hide behind.

We also recognise that war dec mechanics are in need of a serious revamp. They have been a complete joke for as long as I can remember.

Let me give an example of my point, because apparently you lack reading comprehension:

1) Wardec on NPC corps is opened

I dare you to find me a single experienced player that hides his or her main in an NPC corp. It simply doesn't happen.

Any experience carebear is either hiding in a vanity corp or in a well established freelancer/educational corp. That is just how it rolls.

The issue that has some mad, as highlighted by your linked posting (Which I had already read) is the Jumpfreighters with just under the gankable amount.

That is not hiding. That is precisely my purpose #3. Those are alts. You want to hit the player, hit their main.

Let me give an example of my point, because apparently you lack reading comprehension:

1) Wardec on NPC corps is opened

2) You go and wardec it

3) You do a zero consequence kill of the "hiding" Jump Freighter you wanted to gank but couldnt because it was not profirable to do so without a wardec.

4) That is an alt

5) The main of that alt is in some very powerful, very elite, PVP corp.

6) They wardec your puny hisec "merc" corp

7) You ragequit eve because you undock, you die - and YOU CANNOT PLAY ALTS BECAUSE THERE IS NO NPC CORP TO PARK THEM AT

As I said, google "law of unintended consequences", and be done, sir.

Also, when did you poll all of the users of EVE to claim that the majority support a given view. Not even the CSM can claim to represent the majority of players, judging by the vote totals (unless, of course, CCP lies on the user base numbers). So yeah, 0/10 on getting your undies all in a bunch...

I've dropped my main down into an NPC corp plenty of times for hauling stuff through high sec, it is a very common practice.

Good job :)

I assume you also make sure to not have too much "isk value of cargo": "gank cost" ratio.

The problem is that NPC corps, especially in the uses that me, Nicolo and others have been highlighting, are not used by "new" or "casual" players.

When you see a three year old NPC corp pilot in a JF, carrying *just* under the amount that would render it profitable to suicide gank, chances are that this is not a casual or new player. Instead it is an alt of an older, more experienced player who is hiding behind concord in order to evade any interference with their particular play style.

I should know, I abuse the crap out of the NPC system myself all the time. Look at some of the characters in this corp and see how often we have corp hopped in the past to avoid decs.

The fact is that if it is even remotely feasible to remove these arbitrary loop holes and protections for older players, whilst retaining protection for genuine new players, then it should be done. The question isn't whether or not it should be done, but whether or not it can be done. And if so, how?

Personally I'd introduce something crazy like suspect flags for NPC corp players over a certain age. Six months old and still in an NPC corp? Good luck making the Jita run with a JF full of technetium. Of course in order for this to have any real effect corp hopping and war dec evasion would also need to be looked at, but that's another issue entirely.

(Personally I liked the idea CCP had of war decs following people around, but unfortunately that is far too open to abuse.)

It is much simpler and less limiting to players to just ban NPC corps.
BTW: NPC corps don't protect new players, they merely disincentivize players of all ages from working together in a player-run corp.

Wouldn't work, people would use additional accounts instead of alts, which amount to much the same thing. There's not really any viable way to tell when several accounts belong to the same person.