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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Donte
Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
2
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe".
So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's?
Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it.
I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps.
Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave...
Thoughts? |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1496
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts?
Space shuttle Enterprise Space shuttle Atlantis
Both are space shuttles both look the same
only one can actually fly in space making the other one spaceworthy would take pretty much a complete reconstruction project
see where I'm going here?
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Sara XIII
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
91
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
EVE is a game tough guy. Something a lot of people do for fun. NPC corps are a great place for casuals like me.
Between Ignorance and Wisdom |
Alexa Coates
The Scope Gallente Federation
145
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jesus christ, stop trying to MAKE people fight you. Go shoot some other miners you freaks. Love my Gallente Federation Navy ships! |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts?
I agree, to an extent.
I think NPC corps should be wardecablle, but the fee higher AND toons less than 6 months old should be immune.
It's just wrong that a game like this has un-deccable hiding spots. Either npc corps should be war-deccable OR players in npc corps should be restricted from doing anything that affects the game like making isk or shooting people. |
Christopher Dulson
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 15:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
If you could wardec NPC corps then they would be permanently wardeced.
Players would sit outside start up systems shooting newbies that had undocked for the first time ever.
And over local there would be a bot just constantly repeating "go back to WOW" every 5 seconds
It could never happen and your either a bad troll or a dumb as a sack
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alexa Coates wrote:Jesus christ, stop trying to MAKE people fight you. Go shoot some other miners you freaks.
This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness.
Newbies should be protected to a point yes, but players who can affect the game in any way AFTER a newbie period (as in my other post, I suggest 6 months) should be liable to experiance the negative aspects of the game in full. One of those negative aspects is being invovled in a war. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
860
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Alexa Coates wrote:Jesus christ, stop trying to MAKE people fight you. Go shoot some other miners you freaks. This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness. Newbies should be protected to a point yes, but players who can affect the game in any way AFTER a newbie period (as in my other post, I suggest 6 months) should be liable to experiance the negative aspects of the game in full. One of those negative aspects is being invovled in a war. Rookie Corps are not the same as Bittervet NPC Corps.
Make NPC corps dec-vulnerable.
Leave Rookie corps alone.
All semblance of ill-intent vanishes, because a rookie cannot be in an NPC corp without having first joined a player corp to get out of the Rookie corp.
Clear as mud, right? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Baby ChuChu
Ice Cream Asylum
92
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
We could argue for days about this issue, but let's all be honest with ourselves here. This is the Eve playerbase we're talking about here. I love you guys. I really do, but...
Christopher Dulson wrote:If you could wardec NPC corps then they would be permanently wardeced.
Players would sit outside start up systems shooting newbies that had undocked for the first time ever.
And over local there would be a bot just constantly repeating "go back to WOW" every 5 seconds
...this is all that would happen. |
Donte
Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
i certianly admit that special considerations must be made for beginning players.
I have issues where simply by being in an NPC corp individuals can negate social consequence.
it should be a common thought when undocking in a space ship when you look at all those neutrals on your overview, "those people probably will kill me if i get out of line (or if they feel like it)." Those in NPC corps simply do not have that worry. yeah suicide ganking is a concern on every bodies mind, but the escalation of that aggression, the wardec, which is a visceral and integral part of EVE's combat society.
EVE is a PVP game. its not fair, but we all love it.
Its time those in NPC corps get to feel the unfair side of eve too.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
1318
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
Very simple common sense 101: in order to have new players stay in the game they have to get emotionally attached to something in EvE for long enough to decide to keep playing & paying even in a cold, harsh universe.
If you pound them since day zero they don't even have to time to like something about this game before they are kicked out.
Also, the day you wardec NPC corps all you get is to have former NPC players create a zillion of 1 men corps. Go wardec them all.
As usual you people get it wrong.
The correct approach is to teach people to WANT to PvP, not to make game mechanics grab them by the nutsacks and hold them steady while you melt them in RR + Falcon + T3 PvP ships. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Foder Enaka
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
They should have 2 tiers of npc corps. Newbie ones that are good til 5 mil sp. Then regular npc corps that can be war docked. You should start to get warning messages at 3 mil sps with even a small tutorial on how to find a corp for the truely clueless. That way someone is not getting killed their first day and people cant hide behind a wall of safety. |
Donte
Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Alexa Coates wrote:Jesus christ, stop trying to MAKE people fight you. Go shoot some other miners you freaks. This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness. Newbies should be protected to a point yes, but players who can affect the game in any way AFTER a newbie period (as in my other post, I suggest 6 months) should be liable to experiance the negative aspects of the game in full. One of those negative aspects is being invovled in a war. Rookie Corps are not the same as Bittervet NPC Corps. Make NPC corps dec-vulnerable. Leave Rookie corps alone. All semblance of ill-intent vanishes, because a rookie cannot be in an NPC corp without having first joined a player corp to get out of the Rookie corp. Clear as mud, right?
this man has a fine point.
|
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
531
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Donte wrote:Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts?
Thoughts? "Cant wait to pad my killboard with noob players because I have no skill" |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1497
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
really this is about 1 player or corp who wants to stalk another player or corp and make their lives miserable
here's a news flash, NPC corps are not safe please feel free to gank them on the undock if you feel their crimes towards you merit their destruction
but no, nobody is going to give you license to follow some noob indy corp around new eden while you remain 100% safe in a much more powerful war gank fleet.
I'm sure you'd love decs on NPC corps since they can't request allies or set standings or form alliances win for you eh? The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Freezehunter
133
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
It would be awesome if NPC corps could be war decced.
That way, inflation in this game would not run rampant because some people just make ISK for the sake of making ISK, and they would be forced to lose their super expensive faction fitted loot pinatas. Inappropriate signature, CCP Phantom. |
nate555
GODHC INTERSTELLAR FLEET Primal Force
44
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
You would want the powerfull navy's of the amarr empire to come down on you? |
Donte
Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Morganta wrote:really this is about 1 player or corp who wants to stalk another player or corp and make their lives miserable
here's a news flash, NPC corps are not safe please feel free to gank them on the undock if you feel their crimes towards you merit their destruction
but no, nobody is going to give you license to follow some noob indy corp around new eden while you remain 100% safe in a much more powerful war gank fleet.
I'm sure you'd love decs on NPC corps since they can't request allies or set standings or form alliances win for you eh?
you're right about them not being safe. but they are, without a doubt, the safest. which says a lot. What do they sacrifice for that added safety?
Nothing.
Some added that they would just be steamrolled by corps with t3 ships and logistics... Cant people in NPC corps get t3 ships and their own logistics? Of course the answer is "Yes". They can indeed defend themselves from aggressors.
The key is, however, they don't want too! |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
724
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
If such a change were made, many players would start new pilots who would never leave the started corp or area. If that was prevented, they would simply un-sub. That results in less money for CCP and they would have to fire people. It would then take even longer for them to fix stuff, or maybe they would only have sufficient money for persistence, and not be able to work on the game at all.
But maybe you think Eve is perfect now and CCP does not need to work on it.
On the other side, those who stay in NPC corps do pay for their freedom from war. Higher taxes, no POS capability, no possibility of Sov, no corp hangars, cannot have annoying members kicked, cannot choose who is admitted to corp, cannot declare war, cannot put up a POCO, and so on. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
MaxxOmega
Temporal Mechanics
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:24:00 -
[20] - Quote
Freezehunter wrote:It would be awesome if NPC corps could be war decced.
That way, inflation in this game would not run rampant because some people just make ISK for the sake of making ISK, and they would be forced to lose their super expensive faction fitted loot pinatas, which would encourage them to buy new stuff and help the market doing so. It would do no such thing at all. Any time I am in an NPC corp it is full of playeres with no ISK. Also since the NPC Corp has no real command structure or home base, full of people with no roles and absolutely no ties to each other, no one cares. Just try to get people in an NPC corp to get together to do anything.
It's a completely stupid idea. As someone else said, people will just create one man corps. You can't FORCE anyone to fight if they don't want to fight, they will just quit... |
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Donte
Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
i have to say this again.
Its not about forcing people to fight, that is simply impossible.
its about removing unnecessary immunities.
There is no good reason that non-noobcorp NPC corporations should be immune to incoming wardecs. |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1498
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
Donte wrote:Morganta wrote:really this is about 1 player or corp who wants to stalk another player or corp and make their lives miserable
here's a news flash, NPC corps are not safe please feel free to gank them on the undock if you feel their crimes towards you merit their destruction
but no, nobody is going to give you license to follow some noob indy corp around new eden while you remain 100% safe in a much more powerful war gank fleet.
I'm sure you'd love decs on NPC corps since they can't request allies or set standings or form alliances win for you eh? you're right about them not being safe. but they are, without a doubt, the safest. which says a lot. What do they sacrifice for that added safety? Nothing!
no sacrifice? so you're saying there's no benefit to being in a player run corp and alliance?
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
highonpop
Void.Tech Fatal Ascension
103
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
Instead of letting player corps wardec NPC corps, CCP should add in some storyline with NPc corps vs NPC corps (not FW) and let NPC guys have at it in high sec
Read First Dev Post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
My post was probably full of typos. I don;t care... |
stoicfaux
1108
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
Donte wrote:I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps.
Excellent plan! Plus, anyone who war-decs an NPC corp loses access to that corp's stations (i.e. no med labs, market, fitting, etc.) and since the NPC corps are closely tied to the faction, such war-deccers should lose access to all stations of the corp's parent faction and should be shoot on sight by the Faction's navy and sentry guns.
Additionally, any personal items in such space should be immediately impounded by the NPC faction/corp. Anyone providing assistance to aggressiveness would reactive a standings loss towards the faction and its corps.
Finally, such people would be flashy red to everyone in the faction's NPC corps.
tl;dr If you want to shoot people in NPC corps, then join Faction Warfare. It's what it was designed for.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 16:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Alexa Coates wrote:Jesus christ, stop trying to MAKE people fight you. Go shoot some other miners you freaks. This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness. Newbies should be protected to a point yes, but players who can affect the game in any way AFTER a newbie period (as in my other post, I suggest 6 months) should be liable to experiance the negative aspects of the game in full. One of those negative aspects is being invovled in a war. Rookie Corps are not the same as Bittervet NPC Corps. Make NPC corps dec-vulnerable. Leave Rookie corps alone. All semblance of ill-intent vanishes, because a rookie cannot be in an NPC corp without having first joined a player corp to get out of the Rookie corp. Clear as mud, right?
I can go for that, with the exception that once a player passes a certain point even in the rookie corp (say, 5 or 6 mil SP), they too should become deccable.
If you don't do that, people just stay in rookie corps forever, suffering no real consequence in game other than a few high fees for things (which, after you get to the point where you can do lvl 4 missions, become moot). |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1039
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
Donte wrote:i have to say this again.
Its not about forcing people to fight, that is simply impossible.
its about removing unnecessary immunities.
There is no good reason that non-noobcorp NPC corporations should be immune to incoming wardecs. But all the NPC corp freighters out of Jita ...
How much does it cost to make a new corp ? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
Savage Angel
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
94
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
NPC corps have no leadership structure, and therefore will be unable to do what a player corps can do about wardecs.
Also, there are negative consequences to being in an NPC corp, as the normal aggression mechanics do not work the same as they do with a player corp. So in one way the NPC corp makes a player safer, and in another more vulnerable. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
863
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Alexa Coates wrote:Jesus christ, stop trying to MAKE people fight you. Go shoot some other miners you freaks. This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness. Newbies should be protected to a point yes, but players who can affect the game in any way AFTER a newbie period (as in my other post, I suggest 6 months) should be liable to experiance the negative aspects of the game in full. One of those negative aspects is being invovled in a war. Rookie Corps are not the same as Bittervet NPC Corps. Make NPC corps dec-vulnerable. Leave Rookie corps alone. All semblance of ill-intent vanishes, because a rookie cannot be in an NPC corp without having first joined a player corp to get out of the Rookie corp. Clear as mud, right? I can go for that, with the exception that once a player passes a certain point even in the rookie corp (say, 5 or 6 mil SP), they too should become deccable. If you don't do that, people just stay in rookie corps forever, suffering no real consequence in game other than a few high fees for things (which, after you get to the point where you can do lvl 4 missions, become moot). I agree that those players (above a certain SP limit) don't really belong in rookie corps. But, ostensibly, they could be self-appointed "teachers" who "help" newbies by "indoctrinating them" into Eve.
While I feel the overwhelming majority of such players actually provide misinformation (knowingly or otherwise), I think it would be a disservice to CCP to not allow players an opportunity to interact almost solely with Newbies.
For this reason, I think players should be allowed to stay indefinitely in rookie corps and thus be protected from war declarations.
However, once any player sheds the umbrella protection of a rookie corp for any reason, that player should be subject to war declaration from that point forward.
Barring this, all non-rookie NPC corps should be automatically enrolled in FW, like it or not. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Donte
Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Donte wrote:i have to say this again.
Its not about forcing people to fight, that is simply impossible.
its about removing unnecessary immunities.
There is no good reason that non-noobcorp NPC corporations should be immune to incoming wardecs. But all the NPC corp freighters out of Jita ... How much does it cost to make a new corp ?
a hell of alot less than a frieghter |
Mia Restolo
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
Donte wrote: you're right about them not being safe. but they are, without a doubt, the safest. which says a lot. What do they sacrifice for that added safety?
11% tax, being forced to share a corp with lots of random idiots, difficulty finding a group of trustworthy players to tackle challenging or boring content or to pvp with. No ship replacement policies, organized corp activities, or anything else that comes from being in a good corp. Not being able to run a POS, POCO, etc...
If they were wardeccable people would simply make tons of 1 person or alt only corps to avoid people like you who are too chicken to engage a competent opponent. If you really want to shoot them, go ahead and gank them and deal with the consequences. |
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Upde
Upde Harris Industries
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:16:00 -
[31] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Alexa Coates wrote:Jesus christ, stop trying to MAKE people fight you. Go shoot some other miners you freaks. This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness. Newbies should be protected to a point yes, but players who can affect the game in any way AFTER a newbie period (as in my other post, I suggest 6 months) should be liable to experiance the negative aspects of the game in full. One of those negative aspects is being invovled in a war.
You shouldn' t have to be forced to be involved in a War if you don't want to. Players already face the negative prospects the minute they undock. If hisec ganking did not exist I would say yes to Wardecing NPC corps. but as there is a mechanic in game already that allows for blowing greenhorns out of the sky already its a bit OTT.
Remember jut because the galaxy is at war not everyone needs to be in it. Switzerland managed to avoid a pretty big war afterall and they were snadwiched in the middle of it as the **** unflded and somehow managed to avoid engaging in it..............
Yes eve is harsh and so is real life, but hey in real life you can avoid war even when its on your front door step so as to speak |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
866
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:19:00 -
[32] - Quote
Mia Restolo wrote:Donte wrote: you're right about them not being safe. but they are, without a doubt, the safest. which says a lot. What do they sacrifice for that added safety?
11% tax, being forced to share a corp with lots of random idiots, difficulty finding a group of trustworthy players to tackle challenging or boring content or to pvp with. No ship replacement policies, organized corp activities, or anything else that comes from being in a good corp. Not being able to run a POS, POCO, etc... If they were wardeccable people would simply make tons of 1 person or alt only corps to avoid people like you who are too chicken to engage a competent opponent. If you really want to shoot them, go ahead and gank them and deal with the consequences. You say that NPC corp members suffer from a lack of organized activities. Why is that? I'm in a corp with a bunch of idiots, in an alliance with a bunch of idiots, in a coalition with a bunch of idiots. That doesn't keep us from organizing. Far from it! If anything, we're overorganized.
One wonders what might motivate the worst corps in Eve to organize themselves better than them being subject to war.
Doesn't one wonder? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:21:00 -
[33] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Alexa Coates wrote:Jesus christ, stop trying to MAKE people fight you. Go shoot some other miners you freaks. This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness. Newbies should be protected to a point yes, but players who can affect the game in any way AFTER a newbie period (as in my other post, I suggest 6 months) should be liable to experiance the negative aspects of the game in full. One of those negative aspects is being invovled in a war. Rookie Corps are not the same as Bittervet NPC Corps. Make NPC corps dec-vulnerable. Leave Rookie corps alone. All semblance of ill-intent vanishes, because a rookie cannot be in an NPC corp without having first joined a player corp to get out of the Rookie corp. Clear as mud, right? I can go for that, with the exception that once a player passes a certain point even in the rookie corp (say, 5 or 6 mil SP), they too should become deccable. If you don't do that, people just stay in rookie corps forever, suffering no real consequence in game other than a few high fees for things (which, after you get to the point where you can do lvl 4 missions, become moot). I agree that those players (above a certain SP limit) don't really belong in rookie corps. But, ostensibly, they could be self-appointed "teachers" who "help" newbies by "indoctrinating them" into Eve. While I feel the overwhelming majority of such players actually provide misinformation (knowingly or otherwise), I think it would be a disservice to CCP to not allow players an opportunity to interact almost solely with Newbies. For this reason, I think players should be allowed to stay indefinitely in rookie corps and thus be protected from war declarations. However, once any player sheds the umbrella protection of a rookie corp for any reason, that player should be subject to war declaration from that point forward. Barring this, all non-rookie NPC corps should be automatically enrolled in FW, like it or not.
That a few people might be doing some form of in-game service is simply not a good reason to allow what amounts to a truck size loop hole.
people in npc corps or anywhere else could help new players along, you don't need corp chat for that.
And saying that people who leave the rookie corp for any reason can be war-dec'd simply means people will NEVER leave the rookie corp is all. So instead of npc corp freighters in jita, it would just be rookie corp frieghters.
Now, one work around to that is extending the trial account training prohibition. If you want to stay in a rookie corp forever, that's fine, but you can't train lots of things like freighters or cynos, nor could you (for example) accept anything higher than a lvl 3 mission.
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BearJews
Android Arms And Industrial Corporation Tenth Legion
40
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:22:00 -
[34] - Quote
Leave it alone? Find other targets? Seriously some people just complain to complain.
The eve universe is HUGe yet you have to complain about NPC corps. lol. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1258
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:24:00 -
[35] - Quote
ban npc corps
Replace them with a shared chat channel and make individuals wardecable as 'freelancers'.
good thread by good poster |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1398
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:25:00 -
[36] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:One wonders what might motivate the worst corps in Eve to organize themselves better than them being subject to war.
Doesn't one wonder? Darth,you're the only one that's made good posts throughout this thread. +1
The only thing I'm not for is subjecting new players who are hardly hours old to a wardec. Rest seems alright really.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1258
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:26:00 -
[37] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Donte wrote:i have to say this again.
Its not about forcing people to fight, that is simply impossible.
its about removing unnecessary immunities.
There is no good reason that non-noobcorp NPC corporations should be immune to incoming wardecs. But all the NPC corp freighters out of Jita ... How much does it cost to make a new corp ? not much but the new wardec system has helped alleviate the decshield problem
all that remains is the npc corp problem |
Upde
Upde Harris Industries
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Now, one work around to that is extending the trial account training prohibition. If you want to stay in a rookie corp forever, that's fine, but you can't train lots of things like freighters or cynos, nor could you (for example) accept anything higher than a lvl 3 mission.
untill you start paying those players monthly subs thatidea is unworkable. providing they are paying their monthly's they can do what ever the **** they choose. If they choose to be in an NPC corp thats their business and they shouldn't be limited from doing and training what ever they want. They acept all the risks as soon as they undock, so if they want to undock in nullsec in a 2 billion ship and get ass raped by an organised nullsec deathsquad then so be it. But saying they should be restricted as to what they can train and what they can do in game when they are fully paid is bullshit |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1401
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:30:00 -
[39] - Quote
How is NPC corp exactly a problem? And what would you suggest? |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:31:00 -
[40] - Quote
Upde wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Now, one work around to that is extending the trial account training prohibition. If you want to stay in a rookie corp forever, that's fine, but you can't train lots of things like freighters or cynos, nor could you (for example) accept anything higher than a lvl 3 mission.
untill you start paying those players monthly subs thatidea is unworkable. providing they are paying their monthly's they can do what ever the **** they choose. If they choose to be in an NPC corp thats their business and they shouldn't be limited from doing and training what ever they want. They acept all the risks as soon as they undock, so if they want to undock in nullsec in a 2 billion ship and get ass raped by an organised nullsec deathsquad then so be it. But saying they should be restricted as to what they can train and what they can do in game when they are fully paid is bullshit I agree. NPC corp players should not be limited from experiencing the joys of the war declaration content of Eve Online.
I believe that's a /thread. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
|
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:34:00 -
[41] - Quote
Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts?
My thoughts are that you don't actually have intelligent thoughts. Why do idiots keep demanding the right, yes an actual right, to harass people whenever they wish? This is a sandbox game, meaning you can do whatever you wish and so can we. If you wish to fight, go fight. Lots of fights out there. But real fights is not what you are after. You want to be a bully in the sandbox on the internet out of all places. What a laughable tough guy. Go join the military or a fight club instead of bullying some random casual players.
What a sad life. And your 'idea' proves that you are not smart enough to be considered stupid. |
Upde
Upde Harris Industries
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:39:00 -
[42] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Upde wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Now, one work around to that is extending the trial account training prohibition. If you want to stay in a rookie corp forever, that's fine, but you can't train lots of things like freighters or cynos, nor could you (for example) accept anything higher than a lvl 3 mission.
untill you start paying those players monthly subs thatidea is unworkable. providing they are paying their monthly's they can do what ever the **** they choose. If they choose to be in an NPC corp thats their business and they shouldn't be limited from doing and training what ever they want. They acept all the risks as soon as they undock, so if they want to undock in nullsec in a 2 billion ship and get ass raped by an organised nullsec deathsquad then so be it. But saying they should be restricted as to what they can train and what they can do in game when they are fully paid is bullshit I agree. NPC corp players should not be limited from experiencing the joys of the war declaration content of Eve Online. I believe that's a /thread.
no you missed the part of where they choose. If they choose to not be exposed to the potential of war dec they choose to stay in an NPC corp. That doesn't limit their danger exposure because they are still open to gank squads, con artists and scamers same as player run corps. The only difference is that they don't choose to be targets however they are still open game by anyone who wants to suicide run them. |
Donte
Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:39:00 -
[43] - Quote
FireT wrote:Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts? My thoughts are that you don't actually have intelligent thoughts. Why do idiots keep demanding the right, yes an actual right, to harass people whenever they wish? This is a sandbox game, meaning you can do whatever you wish and so can we. If you wish to fight, go fight. Lots of fights out there. But real fights is not what you are after. You want to be a bully in the sandbox on the internet out of all places. What a laughable tough guy. Go join the military or a fight club instead of bullying some random casual players. What a sad life. And your 'idea' proves that you are not smart enough to be considered stupid.
if you cant attack the argument, attack the person making it! i like your strategy!
|
Romar Agent
Ishukone Regional Headquarters
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:40:00 -
[44] - Quote
God, you must really be bored out there in Nullsec if you're feeling the need to disassemble Highsec.
Just leave those players alone. Regardless of what type of game EVE is supposed to be, or how the game is supposed to be played, everyone is free to play the way they want. It's not like NPC corp-members are choosing an option that isn't open to anyone. It's not like NPC corps are without consequences.
NPC corps are an intended mechanic - Highsec is supposed to be safer - Highsec is also supposed to be less profitable - NPC corps fit right in that concept. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:40:00 -
[45] - Quote
FireT wrote:Why do idiots keep demanding the right, yes an actual right, to harass people whenever they wish? This is a sandbox game, meaning you can do whatever you wish and so can we. If you wish to fight, go fight. Lots of fights out there. But real fights is not what you are after. You want to be a bully in the sandbox on the internet out of all places. What a laughable tough guy. Go join the military or a fight club instead of bullying some random casual players. I'd just like to comment that this is a game. We don't really have "rights" we have "rules".
The rules allow my character(s) to shoot your character(s) any time I like. Which I just may. That is not a threat, it is the nature of Eve. Shooting at another character or declaring war upon another group of players is not harassment. It is playing the game the way it was designed to be played. Eve is driven by conflict according to CCP's professional economist Dr. E.
There is no valid reason that NPC corp members are not subject to war declarations. They are not newbies, as they have left the rookie corp. They are legion, so numbers should not be a problem. Statistically, they all can't be idiots, so there is no "special needs" reason.
The mechanics that make them immune to war decs appear dated with the new ally system.
The rest of your post was 100% personal attack and need not be commented upon. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:42:00 -
[46] - Quote
Upde wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Upde wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Now, one work around to that is extending the trial account training prohibition. If you want to stay in a rookie corp forever, that's fine, but you can't train lots of things like freighters or cynos, nor could you (for example) accept anything higher than a lvl 3 mission.
untill you start paying those players monthly subs thatidea is unworkable. providing they are paying their monthly's they can do what ever the **** they choose. If they choose to be in an NPC corp thats their business and they shouldn't be limited from doing and training what ever they want. They acept all the risks as soon as they undock, so if they want to undock in nullsec in a 2 billion ship and get ass raped by an organised nullsec deathsquad then so be it. But saying they should be restricted as to what they can train and what they can do in game when they are fully paid is bullshit I agree. NPC corp players should not be limited from experiencing the joys of the war declaration content of Eve Online. I believe that's a /thread. no you missed the part of where they choose. If they choose to not be exposed to the potential of war dec they choose to stay in an NPC corp. That doesn't limit their danger exposure because they are still open to gank squads, con artists and scamers same as player run corps. The only difference is that they don't choose to be targets however they are still open game by anyone who wants to suicide run them. No you missed the part where they chose, to be 100% honest with you. The NPC corps are not the rookie corps.
Any player who leaves a rookie corp makes a choice to be a participant.
NPC corps are not rookie corps. You cannot use them synonymously. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
306
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:45:00 -
[47] - Quote
Bloody hell do you guys have to whine all da long about not having enough targets?Maybe i dunno actually have balls and fight each other for a change instead of blueballing half of null and/or sticking with empire wardeccing instead of going to low/null?
If i go to a gaybar i can complain alll day about not having ******* there but fact would remain that the issue was mostly created by myself. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:48:00 -
[48] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Bloody hell do you guys have to whine all da long about not having enough targets?Maybe i dunno actually have balls and fight each other for a change instead of blueballing half of null and/or sticking with empire wardeccing instead of going to low/null?
If i go to a gaybar i can complain alll day about not having ******* there but fact would remain that the issue was mostly created by myself. The point is that NPC corps aren't even a "choice." You only wind up in them by default.
A default condition should not make anybody who is not a newbie impervious to war decs.
End of story, to be honest with you. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Cutter Isaacson
Peace N Quiet
516
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:49:00 -
[49] - Quote
Make it possible for one individual to war dec another individual? Make NPC corps open to war decs?
:facepalm: Numbers of terminally stupid people seem to be on the increase, I suggest we have a real life Stupidageddon to rectify this issue. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1258
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:53:00 -
[50] - Quote
Cutter Isaacson wrote:Make it possible for one individual to war dec another individual? Make NPC corps open to war decs?
:facepalm: Absolutely. You want to play single-player, you should be able to deal with a wardec as a single player. I am against NPC corps being wardecable, as NPC corps shouldn't exist altogether in any way, shape, or form. |
|
Savage Angel
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
94
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:53:00 -
[51] - Quote
An NPC corp cannot:
GÇóDeclare war on anyone GÇóMake a wardec mutual GÇóAdd allies using the in-game mechanics GÇóSet the status of another corp to red (or anything) GÇóUse their taxes to fund a war GÇóJoin an alliance GÇóRecruit new members GÇóKick a member, even if a spy GÇóChose who is in it
Probably a few others, but that is enough to show that you are really asking for a punching bag for your tiny epeen, not a real war. Go bully real corps with a real chance to respond and not one hobbled by game mechanics.
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1258
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:56:00 -
[52] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote:God, you must really be bored out there in Nullsec if you're feeling the need to disassemble Highsec. EVE is a closely interconnected game, you should go play on a game with sharded servers if you don't want to hear discussions about risk/reward balance across various secstatus. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:56:00 -
[53] - Quote
Savage Angel wrote:An NPC corp cannot:
GÇóDeclare war on anyone GÇóMake a wardec mutual GÇóAdd allies using the in-game mechanics GÇóSet the status of another corp to red (or anything) GÇóUse their taxes to fund a war GÇóJoin an alliance GÇóRecruit new members GÇóKick a member, even if a spy GÇóChose who is in it
Probably a few others, but that is enough to show that you are really asking for a punching bag for your tiny epeen, not a real war. Go bully real corps with a real chance to respond and not one hobbled by game mechanics.
You know what? I hadn't considered the spy part. That's 100% my bad.
Oh wait that doesn't matter. My coalition is riddled with them too, congratulations.
Oh and in high-sec NPC corp awoxers always die to CONCORD. So your point is what, exactly? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1777
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:56:00 -
[54] - Quote
Five months ago, I wrote a blog post that addressed this as a larger part of the then-broken wardec system. Some of what I wanted came about, some more is mired up in CrimeWatch, but NPC corps are still being left alone.
I'm not against the existence of NPC corps and I don't want them to be subject to wardecs. However, they shouldn't be a viable safe haven for people simply looking to circumvent the wardec system. Imagine an Eve where it became a lot more difficult to hide neutral haulers in NPC corps. But how?
My solution was, and still is, to introduce a level of role-playing to the NPC corps. Give them variable standings to each other and routinely change them. What happens when your NPC corp is suddenly denied docking access to the station in which you stored your ships? What about when the Caldari Navy becomes hostile and you lose access to their L4 missions that you've been relying on?
Of course this would create the "problem" of hundreds of one-man corps...but that could be dealt with by making corporate ownership a non-trivial cost. Creating your own corp is essentially free today. Perhaps it's time CCP raises the price to the point that players are more inclined to seek a place in an existing player corp and possibly establish their own once they have more cash. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Josef Djugashvilis
The Scope Gallente Federation
319
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:56:00 -
[55] - Quote
Posting in yet another pixel hardman thread, which lacks any sort of original thought whatsoever.
In short, the op is acting like a troll just for the sake of it. You want fries with that? |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1258
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:57:00 -
[56] - Quote
Savage Angel wrote:An NPC corp cannot:
GÇóDeclare war on anyone GÇóMake a wardec mutual GÇóAdd allies using the in-game mechanics GÇóSet the status of another corp to red (or anything) GÇóUse their taxes to fund a war GÇóJoin an alliance GÇóRecruit new members GÇóKick a member, even if a spy GÇóChose who is in it
Probably a few others, but that is enough to show that you are really asking for a punching bag for your tiny epeen, not a real war. Go bully real corps with a real chance to respond and not one hobbled by game mechanics.
If NPC corps were eliminated and replaced by "freelancer" de facto one-man player corps, they would have none of these 'limitations'.
lol @ spying on an npc corp btw |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
422
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:58:00 -
[57] - Quote
totally agree those ***** high sec alts thinking they are safe hiding behind their ambiguity... PLEX FOR PIZZA!
tech III industrial ships! |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 17:59:00 -
[58] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Savage Angel wrote:An NPC corp cannot:
GÇóDeclare war on anyone GÇóMake a wardec mutual GÇóAdd allies using the in-game mechanics GÇóSet the status of another corp to red (or anything) GÇóUse their taxes to fund a war GÇóJoin an alliance GÇóRecruit new members GÇóKick a member, even if a spy GÇóChose who is in it
Probably a few others, but that is enough to show that you are really asking for a punching bag for your tiny epeen, not a real war. Go bully real corps with a real chance to respond and not one hobbled by game mechanics.
If NPC corps were eliminated and replaced by "freelancer" de facto one-man player corps, they would have none of these 'limitations'. I disagree, Nicolo.
Bring back the old vote mechanics - but only for NPC corps.
Allow each member to vote on all matters of war. Mutuality, allies, you name it.
The best simulation of a true command structure we can give them is the old functionality, which is actually fairly in-keeping with the concept of an NPC megacorp.
Plus just think of the numbers these guys could bring to a fight once properly motivated... He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:00:00 -
[59] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: I'm not against the existence of NPC corps and I don't want them to be subject to wardecs. However, they shouldn't be a viable safe haven for people simply looking to circumvent the wardec system..
Why not? Party B doesn't want to fight party A. Party B pays his subs like everyone else. So let him be in his NPC corp. What's it to you? Get a life!
|
MaxxOmega
Temporal Mechanics
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:00:00 -
[60] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:End of story, to be honest with you. Wrong. Not end of story. Wardeccing NPC Corps is a waste of time, It will accomplish nothing close to getting the players to fight, they will more likely quit playing...
|
|
Generals4
901
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:01:00 -
[61] - Quote
Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts?
I totally agree but let's expand a bit on this idea.
Unless i'm mistaking when you wardec a corp you also wardec its alliance. Now since most NPC corp are part of a faction war deccing an npc corp would result in wardeccing the faction. This means that you would be treated like an enemy militia member by the npc's (so nice navy npc's spawning at you in high sec) but also that everyone in any npc corp of said faction can shoot you. But since YOU are the one imposing your war on people who are members of what is maybe the last kind of a somewhat "safer" haven let's use the "call in an ally" mechanic. When wardeccing an npc corp you get not only its faction on your ass but also it's allied faction (eg: Caldari & amarr). But that's still quite boring. Because factions really don't like people attacking their npc corps the wardec becomes PERMANENT with the factions automatically bribing concord after your initial bribe times out. So you'll have a perma war that only costed, what , a month times of war. Lucky you!
And to avoid exploits from null/low sec alliances using high sec alts for logistics. Being very pissed the factions decide to tighten the security and order their npc's on gates to null or low to instantly lock and shoot you. But lucky you they don't warp scram. So if you're fast enough you can escape.
And i also wonder how much it would cost to war dec a faction with god knows how many members.
But hey, i support the idea! -Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:02:00 -
[62] - Quote
MaxxOmega wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:End of story, to be honest with you. Wrong. Not end of story. Wardeccing NPC Corps is a waste of time, It will accomplish nothing close to getting the players to fight, they will more likely quit playing... That totally would stop me from hitting them with a Draw Four if this were Uno Online.
Just sayin'. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
2341
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:03:00 -
[63] - Quote
Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts?
Isn't the real problem "alts" ?
Perhaps (while we're doing crazy blue-sky thinking here) what having any of your alts on an account wardecced by X meant that your alts (regardless of which corp or npc entity they are in) would also be wardecced?) This would presumably mean that a nullec alliance could no longer move its moon loot freighters safely to market.
Would that solve your problem?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom Epic Inferno Wardec Test, Sign up and shoot Goons for free! |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:04:00 -
[64] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts? Isn't the real problem "alts" ? Perhaps (while we're doing crazy blue-sky thinking here) what having any of your alts on an account wardecced by X meant that your alts (regardless of which corp or npc entity they are in) would also be wardecced?) This would presumably mean that a nullec alliance could no longer move its moon loot freighters safely to market. Would that solve your problem? Bringing back the vote system and employing it for all matters pertaining to war by and/or with NPC corps would solve my problem fairly well. Including the implications of faction affiliation. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
oldbutfeelingyoung
VIRTUAL EMPIRE VANGUARD Vanguard Ascendants
591
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:05:00 -
[65] - Quote
oow another Eve is harsh Thread
ooh well Fly safe everybody toodeloo!!!!! pushing that button ,not expecting something. But suddenly the door opens and the next thing i see myself flooting in space,just before i wake up again. thank god for clones |
Upde
Upde Harris Industries
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:07:00 -
[66] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Upde wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Upde wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Now, one work around to that is extending the trial account training prohibition. If you want to stay in a rookie corp forever, that's fine, but you can't train lots of things like freighters or cynos, nor could you (for example) accept anything higher than a lvl 3 mission.
untill you start paying those players monthly subs thatidea is unworkable. providing they are paying their monthly's they can do what ever the **** they choose. If they choose to be in an NPC corp thats their business and they shouldn't be limited from doing and training what ever they want. They acept all the risks as soon as they undock, so if they want to undock in nullsec in a 2 billion ship and get ass raped by an organised nullsec deathsquad then so be it. But saying they should be restricted as to what they can train and what they can do in game when they are fully paid is bullshit I agree. NPC corp players should not be limited from experiencing the joys of the war declaration content of Eve Online. I believe that's a /thread. no you missed the part of where they choose. If they choose to not be exposed to the potential of war dec they choose to stay in an NPC corp. That doesn't limit their danger exposure because they are still open to gank squads, con artists and scamers same as player run corps. The only difference is that they don't choose to be targets however they are still open game by anyone who wants to suicide run them. No you missed the part where they chose, to be 100% honest with you. The NPC corps are not the rookie corps. Any player who leaves a rookie corp makes a choice to be a participant.NPC corps are not rookie corps. You cannot use them synonymously.
I might have given the wrong impression here... I was only wanting to make direct reference to NPC corps and not the intial corps like SWA etc you join on creation. Rookie corps should be as the name intends, hold players maybe for the trail period + maybe a month to acclimatise to the game and then the player choses, 1. join regular NPC corp, or 2. Join player run corp. once the period is lapsed they should get 2 weeks to research player run corps and if by that time they are still in the rookie corp they should be auto placed in to an NPC corp
If they choose 2. its likely an informed decision as they don't actively want to be in a war, but they still accpet the risks of space disintegration if they failfit mine in apaer thin hulk with no tank. They shouldn't be forced into a war dec situation. This doesn't affect anyone else gameplay because a ganker hell bent on persecution will still willing kamikaze their destroyer to get hisec bear tears as is proven time and time again by the successful hulka now perma-geddon event .
i don't se any reason to want to mandate forcing all NPC corp players into a permanent wardec situation. Sure it will definitely get them to HTFU. But for each person that does HTFU you are likely to see more than a handful simply click on the cancel button. I would rather have them in the game as suicide targets than not at all to be honest |
Cpt Greywolf
Mining and Industrial Services The Irukandji
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:09:00 -
[67] - Quote
Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts?
I would agree up to a point however NPC corps are abused to evade war decs for some alliances with out of corp freighter alts, the ability to war dec the NPC corps would certainly make Jita runs very entertaining.
However people are never safe in EvE no matter which corp / alliance they choose to join NPC or otherwise, war deccing them would turn away alot of new players, not to mention if you really want to kill a guy in a NPC corp it isn't difficult jus suicide gank there ship rather then play endless station games that this would encourage.
|
Cassius Marcellus
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:10:00 -
[68] - Quote
Donte wrote: you're right about them not being safe. but they are, without a doubt, the safest. which says a lot. What do they sacrifice for that added safety?
Nothing.
I see that you don't understand the advantages to actually having a player corporation. ^_^ (Yes, this is my NPC corp alt; it's sweet to taunt you with it -- because you let me, but that's that.)
Anyhow -- Is EVE a game that allows PVP? Yes.
Is EVE a PVP game, as you state? Er, that would terribly limit CCP's business opportunities -- And also their income from other players, income that benefits me (albeit indirectly, by growing EVE Online). I'd argue that it SHOULD NOT be PVP-only.
Hunting players in NPC corporations is VERY do-able. YOU just want to do it without risk to yourself -- And that makes me laugh at you.
|
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:12:00 -
[69] - Quote
Upde wrote:I might have given the wrong impression here... I was only wanting to make direct reference to NPC corps and not the intial corps like SWA etc you join on creation. Rookie corps should be as the name intends, hold players maybe for the trail period + maybe a month to acclimatise to the game and then the player choses, 1. join regular NPC corp, or 2. Join player run corp. once the period is lapsed they should get 2 weeks to research player run corps and if by that time they are still in the rookie corp they should be auto placed in to an NPC corp
If they choose 2. its likely an informed decision as they don't actively want to be in a war, but they still accpet the risks of space disintegration if they failfit mine in apaer thin hulk with no tank. They shouldn't be forced into a war dec situation. This doesn't affect anyone else gameplay because a ganker hell bent on persecution will still willing kamikaze their destroyer to get hisec bear tears as is proven time and time again by the successful hulka now perma-geddon event .
i don't se any reason to want to mandate forcing all NPC corp players into a permanent wardec situation. Sure it will definitely get them to HTFU. But for each person that does HTFU you are likely to see more than a handful simply click on the cancel button. I would rather have them in the game as suicide targets than not at all to be honest Ah, the people will quit defense.
I just want to reiterate then, them quitting would totallystop me from playing a Draw Four on them in Uno Online.
It so would. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Jett0
Team Kitty Choke Slam
134
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:18:00 -
[70] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:ban npc corps
Replace them with a shared chat channel and make individuals wardecable as 'freelancers'.
good thread by good poster
I've always wondered why NPC corps even exist. Would it break the game to remove them? Occasionally plays sober |
|
Romar Agent
Ishukone Regional Headquarters
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:20:00 -
[71] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Romar Agent wrote:God, you must really be bored out there in Nullsec if you're feeling the need to disassemble Highsec. EVE is a closely interconnected game, you should go play on a game with sharded servers if you don't want to hear discussions about risk/reward balance across various secstatus. But I am talking about risk and reward.
NPC corpmembers are safe only in Highsec. As soon as they touch Low or Null they are free game as everyone. They profit of their choice only in Highsec. And of the three security levels Highsec offers the defined lowest reward for activities.
Higher the risk: go to Low - you are attackable with next to no consequences, but may gain higher rewards.
Higher the risk: stay in High but join a player corporation - you are better organized (= possibly higher rewards), but can be wardecced and are attackable with next to no consequences.
Repeat the thought into Null...
EVE has all these steps. They are not equal. They are all running on a risk/reward graph of higher risk/higher reward. It's all by design. |
Donte
Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:20:00 -
[72] - Quote
Cassius Marcellus wrote:Donte wrote: you're right about them not being safe. but they are, without a doubt, the safest. which says a lot. What do they sacrifice for that added safety?
Nothing.
I see that you don't understand the advantages to actually having a player corporation. ^_^ (Yes, this is my NPC corp alt; it's sweet to taunt you with it -- because you let me, but that's that.) Anyhow -- Is EVE a game that allows PVP? Yes. Is EVE a PVP game, as you state? Er, that would terribly limit CCP's business opportunities -- And also their income from other players, income that benefits me (albeit indirectly, by growing EVE Online). I'd argue that it SHOULD NOT be PVP-only. Hunting players in NPC corporations is VERY do-able. YOU just want to do it without risk to yourself -- And that makes me laugh at you.
you misunderstand EVE.
It is by nature a PVP game... Everything you do when interacting with the universe is PVP.
Mining a rock... PVP there are a limited amount of resources - if you mine it, someone else cant... Placing a sell order... PVP. you sell your widget, someone else didnt... Placing a buy order... PVP. you buy something for cheaper than another guy - that guy now has to spend more money... Mission running... What do you do with the proceeds of that activity? the moduals, the salvage, the ammo- you use them to PVP!
short of undocking and using jump gates, there is nothing in this game that is NOT PVP.
every pilot in eve is a PVPer... the sooner everyone realizes this, the sooner they understand the amazing depth to this magnificent game.
|
highonpop
Void.Tech Fatal Ascension
104
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:24:00 -
[73] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Donte wrote:I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps.
Excellent plan! Plus, anyone who war-decs an NPC corp loses access to that corp's stations (i.e. no med labs, market, fitting, etc.) and since the NPC corps are closely tied to the faction, such war-deccers should lose access to all stations of the corp's parent faction and should be shoot on sight by the Faction's navy and sentry guns. Additionally, any personal items in such space should be immediately impounded by the NPC faction/corp. Anyone providing assistance to aggressiveness would reactive a standings loss towards the faction and its corps. Finally, such people would be flashy red to everyone in the faction's NPC corps. tl;dr If you want to shoot people in NPC corps, then join Faction Warfare. It's what it was designed for.
Actually, It was designed so Player corps could join Factions to fight. Not for NPC corps to fight. And FW mechanics are not in HS
Read First Dev Post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
My post was probably full of typos. I don;t care... |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:25:00 -
[74] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Romar Agent wrote:God, you must really be bored out there in Nullsec if you're feeling the need to disassemble Highsec. EVE is a closely interconnected game, you should go play on a game with sharded servers if you don't want to hear discussions about risk/reward balance across various secstatus. But I am talking about risk and reward. NPC corpmembers are safe only in Highsec. As soon as they touch Low or Null they are free game as everyone. They profit of their choice only in Highsec. And of the three security levels Highsec offers the defined lowest reward for activities. Higher the risk: go to Low - you are attackable with next to no consequences, but may gain higher rewards. Higher the risk: stay in High but join a player corporation - you are better organized (= possibly higher rewards), but can be wardecced and are attackable with next to no consequences. Repeat the thought into Null... EVE has all these steps. They are not equal. They are all running on a risk/reward graph of higher risk/higher reward. It's all by design. Why does the old bad mechanic of poorly-organized NPC corps have to remain not only bad, but stagnant as well?
Why not turn NPC corps into high-sec fiefdoms and allow players' characters to compete politically within the body of those NPC corps to actually attain goals and objectives?
I favor bringing the vote system to NPC corps and making them war dec'able (and able to dec and recruit allies as well) but under a truly democratic leadership. Let democracy and combat motivate them to excel at Eve instead of allowing poor design principles to bog down an entire sector of the playerbase - a sector that also happens to be a default condition of leaving a player corporation. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Cassius Marcellus
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:26:00 -
[75] - Quote
Donte wrote:you misunderstand EVE.
It is by nature a PVP game... Everything you do when interacting with the universe is PVP.
No, you misunderstood me, but that was expected.
I reiterate my earlier comment: You want to hunt people in NPC corps without penalty to yourself; and that's just plain silly and contrary to CCP's consequences policy.
Join Faction Warfare! I even did that for a bit when it came out (no, not on this character).
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1259
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:27:00 -
[76] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:If NPC corps were eliminated and replaced by "freelancer" de facto one-man player corps, they would have none of these 'limitations'. I disagree, Nicolo. Bring back the old vote mechanics - but only for NPC corps. Allow each member to vote on all matters of war. Mutuality, allies, you name it. The best simulation of a true command structure we can give them is the old functionality, which is actually fairly in-keeping with the concept of an NPC megacorp. Plus just think of the numbers these guys could bring to a fight once properly motivated... That seems pretty abusable tbh. Say a significant part of a highly numerous alliance join an NPC corp for a day and vote to make a wardec mutual, then rejoin their actual corp. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:29:00 -
[77] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:If NPC corps were eliminated and replaced by "freelancer" de facto one-man player corps, they would have none of these 'limitations'. I disagree, Nicolo. Bring back the old vote mechanics - but only for NPC corps. Allow each member to vote on all matters of war. Mutuality, allies, you name it. The best simulation of a true command structure we can give them is the old functionality, which is actually fairly in-keeping with the concept of an NPC megacorp. Plus just think of the numbers these guys could bring to a fight once properly motivated... That seems pretty abusable tbh. Say a significant part of a highly numerous alliance join an NPC corp for a day and vote to make a wardec mutual, then rejoin their actual corp. You don't choose what NPC corp you join, though. They're assigned by race and career path.
So that'd require making a lot of characters of the same race and career path. And I mean a lot.
And then they'd have to join a Player Corp. And then they'd have to leave.
Just to mess with the vote.
Sure it might happen, but LOL they might not even pull it off due to the legions in NPC corps.
Also CCP could just make a policy about that, such as characters newer than 7 days in NPC corp can't vote. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1259
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:30:00 -
[78] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Isn't the real problem "alts" ?
Perhaps (while we're doing crazy blue-sky thinking here) what having any of your alts on an account wardecced by X meant that your alts (regardless of which corp or npc entity they are in) would also be wardecced?) This would presumably mean that a nullec alliance could no longer move its moon loot freighters safely to market.
Would that solve your problem?
If NPC corps were removed and replaced with "freelancers" that could be wardec'd, you could just cargo scan freighters moving from trade hubs to deployment systems and wardec the ones moving platinum technite or whatever at a pittance. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
120
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:35:00 -
[79] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:If NPC corps were eliminated and replaced by "freelancer" de facto one-man player corps, they would have none of these 'limitations'. I disagree, Nicolo. Bring back the old vote mechanics - but only for NPC corps. Allow each member to vote on all matters of war. Mutuality, allies, you name it. The best simulation of a true command structure we can give them is the old functionality, which is actually fairly in-keeping with the concept of an NPC megacorp. Plus just think of the numbers these guys could bring to a fight once properly motivated... That seems pretty abusable tbh. Say a significant part of a highly numerous alliance join an NPC corp for a day and vote to make a wardec mutual, then rejoin their actual corp.
Institue a "freeze", any character voting yes to a war dec is automatically prevented from leaving the corp for 5 days.
As to the people who always cry "leave them alone, let them be, let them avoid war-decs with npc corps if thats what they want to do", I say i agree, again IF those people face downsides because of the choice.
That's why earlier in this thread I talked about this being an issue of fairness. I'm a null sec guy, I won't ever be war-deccing anyone.
But out of fairness I think that if you can do ANYTHING that can negatively affect another player (like running a mission and making their LP worthless, or mining and making thier ore worthless, or taking haul contracts with your npc corp frieghter, denying that contract to a playing in a PLAYER run corp), you should be forced by the rules of the game to face the same risk (of death OR annoyance) as everyone else.
War is one of those risks. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1260
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:38:00 -
[80] - Quote
So me and my 30,000+ coalition all roll up disposable brand new characters of X race and X bloodline so they be part of X NPC corp and vote a wardec between X NPC Corp and Y Federation as being totally mutual. I can't say I support a system like that when the fairer, and overall better for everyone system is just getting rid of the ancient NPC corp throwback system altogether. |
|
Romar Agent
Ishukone Regional Headquarters
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:39:00 -
[81] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Why do the old bad mechanics of poorly-organized NPC corps have to remain not only bad, but stagnant as well?
Why not turn NPC corps into high-sec fiefdoms and allow players' characters to compete politically within the body of those NPC corps to actually attain goals and objectives?
I favor bringing the vote system to NPC corps and making them war dec'able (and able to dec and recruit allies as well) but under a truly democratic leadership. Let democracy and combat motivate them to excel at Eve instead of allowing poor design principles to bog down an entire sector of the playerbase - a sector that also happens to be a default condition of leaving a player corporation. No problem with such an idea - I would most probably like it.
I would just not like to have NPC corps wardeccable on the spot (= more risk) without offering the opportunity of higher reward.
I would also like to retain a safest haven for the people inclined to play that way - say they could join an NPC Navy and automatically have their NPC forces in the back should they happen to be wardecced. Or give each NPC faction some NPC ships roaming their stations at random - something to offset the disadvantage of the clear cut command structures of a dedicated player corporation. |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:40:00 -
[82] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:If NPC corps were eliminated and replaced by "freelancer" de facto one-man player corps, they would have none of these 'limitations'. I disagree, Nicolo. Bring back the old vote mechanics - but only for NPC corps. Allow each member to vote on all matters of war. Mutuality, allies, you name it. The best simulation of a true command structure we can give them is the old functionality, which is actually fairly in-keeping with the concept of an NPC megacorp. Plus just think of the numbers these guys could bring to a fight once properly motivated... That seems pretty abusable tbh. Say a significant part of a highly numerous alliance join an NPC corp for a day and vote to make a wardec mutual, then rejoin their actual corp. Institue a "freeze", any character voting yes to a war dec is automatically prevented from leaving the corp for 5 days.
As to the people who always cry "leave them alone, let them be, let them avoid war-decs with npc corps if thats what they want to do", I say i agree, again IF those people face downsides because of the choice. That's why earlier in this thread I talked about this being an issue of fairness. I'm a null sec guy, I won't ever be war-deccing anyone. But out of fairness I think that if you can do ANYTHING that can negatively affect another player (like running a mission and making their LP worthless, or mining and making thier ore worthless, or taking haul contracts with your npc corp frieghter, denying that contract to a playing in a PLAYER run corp), you should be forced by the rules of the game to face the same risk (of death OR annoyance) as everyone else. War is one of those risks. +1. The only thing I disagreed with was the freeze on "Yes" voters leaving. Not logging in is the same as leaving.
Freeze new NPC corp members' ability to vote for 3 to 7 days, whatever is found to work.
Setting up such a large takeover of an NPC corp as Nicolo suggests would become possible would be pretty hard to organize though, I think.
But oh, would it be funny! He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
160
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:45:00 -
[83] - Quote
Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts?
Seems like a lot of hate from an NRDS guy.....Shouldn't you be protecting NPC neuts?
Looking to stamp out apiphobia in my lifetime..... |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:46:00 -
[84] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Why do the old bad mechanics of poorly-organized NPC corps have to remain not only bad, but stagnant as well?
Why not turn NPC corps into high-sec fiefdoms and allow players' characters to compete politically within the body of those NPC corps to actually attain goals and objectives?
I favor bringing the vote system to NPC corps and making them war dec'able (and able to dec and recruit allies as well) but under a truly democratic leadership. Let democracy and combat motivate them to excel at Eve instead of allowing poor design principles to bog down an entire sector of the playerbase - a sector that also happens to be a default condition of leaving a player corporation. No problem with such an idea - I would most probably like it. I would just not like to have NPC corps wardeccable on the spot (= more risk) without offering the opportunity of higher reward. I would also like to retain a safest haven for the people inclined to play that way - say they could join an NPC Navy and automatically have their NPC forces in the back should they happen to be wardecced. Or give each NPC faction some NPC ships roaming their stations at random - something to offset the disadvantage of the clear cut command structures of a dedicated player corporation. I think that advantage would be sheer numbers, to be honest with you.
All the organization will come with victories and morale. They are inevitable consequences of this.
That said, I'm afraid I don't know what to say to a player whose character left a rookie corp for a player corp (with ostensibly more risk and more reward available), didn't like it but still wanted to play Eve in safety, and therefore left the player corp for an increase in safety. I think this is a remnant of a bad design. Players should never be left to stagnate by the mechanics of an MMORPG. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:48:00 -
[85] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:So me and my 30,000+ coalition all roll up disposable brand new characters of X race and X bloodline so they be part of X NPC corp and vote a wardec between X NPC Corp and Y Federation as being totally mutual. I can't say I support a system like that when the fairer, and overall better for everyone system is just getting rid of the ancient NPC corp throwback system altogether. I am willing to bet that the vast majority (90% or more) of the "30k" coalition wouldn't cooperate on this for two seconds.
Not to mention that it should be covered under the "No Throw-away Alts" principle guiding CCP's GMs.
In other words, even with my proposal, I really don't see this happening. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:49:00 -
[86] - Quote
I kinda like this idea.
Because NPC corps are part of factions wardeccers would have to take part in FW. Like a 'pay to FW' thing. And I can't get this image of griefers running around and Caldari Navy chasing them out of my head.
+ All other FW stuff like undockable stations and such. |
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
Perkone Caldari State
164
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 18:56:00 -
[87] - Quote
(yawns)
All I can hear is the sound of one hand clapping. What a seriously silly idea here.
Why even spend one mental moment on this when you know ahead of time this will go absolutely nowhere with CCP.
Lets here some more great ideas on how to murder new EVE players. Good job guys.
Ohh poor silly goon chillrens. Nobody in high sec cares about your plans to occupy jita like a bunch of dirty hippies. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
867
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:04:00 -
[88] - Quote
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:(yawns) All I can hear is the sound of one hand clapping. What a seriously silly idea here. Why even spend one mental moment on this when you know ahead of time this will go absolutely nowhere with CCP. Lets here some more great ideas on how to murder new EVE players. Good job guys. Maybe we could spread the word of how safe POSs are in high-sec and how there aren't any consequences for our words and deeds.
Maybe we should post more "I Quit" threads, Krixtal.
Yeah, that's just what New Eden needs.
Did you even read my suggestion? I'm trying to give NPC corps a tool that ends their obvious and stinking stagnation.
You must really love Eve, Krixtal to want to ruin it so! He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Romar Agent
Ishukone Regional Headquarters
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:04:00 -
[89] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:... That said, I'm afraid I don't know what to say to a player whose character left a rookie corp for a player corp (with ostensibly more risk and more reward available), didn't like it but still wanted to play Eve in safety, and therefore left the player corp for an increase in safety. I think this is a remnant of a bad design. Players should never be left to stagnate by the mechanics of an MMORPG. I'm feeling that the default NPC corps are a bad thought out mechanic, probably coming from CCP's data model not allowing to have corpsless characters as well as not allowing progression from player corp to player corp. Who actually wants to be in, say Viziam, from a storyline point of view? I envy those Khanids who at least get a staff position with the Ministry of War...
Overall I personally think there should be a corp/sec option for every tier of risk and reward, like very safe/next to no reward in an undeccable Highsec institution (with staying in Highsec) and highest risk/huge reward like living in a wormhole. All tiers have their place in the game.
What I agree on is that neither the safest nor the riskiest of these tiers should be made into a default tier. Actually the default state should be high risk/low reward. Say, being recruited into your nation's militia or navy (with permanent wardec to your enemy's navy) - the default state should be of a kind that shoul make people to want to leave it. But give the option, and make it a conscious decision to join a safe haven corporation for anyone who just wants to play around casually with no intention of amassing riches.
i.e.
- You are progressed from your training corporation into a militia/navy (with the added vulnerability as described above) after a given character age, logon time, skill point level. - You can always join or leave a player corporation defaulting to that militia/navy. - You can always join a safe haven corporation, with certain game mechanics taken from you (no contracts outside, so no neutral freighter pilots).
Just make sure none of these states is exploitable. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:05:00 -
[90] - Quote
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:Lets here some more great ideas on how to murder new EVE players. Good job guys.
True, that would be a downside to it.
On the other this would give actual FW players more targets to shoot. |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1261
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:13:00 -
[91] - Quote
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote: Lets here some more great ideas on how to murder new EVE players. Good job guys.
New EVE players are the ones that suffer now, because they are the ones who tend to hop in swiftly stomped newbie player-owned corps while the PVE alts of veterans grind away in NPC corp safety. New players are punished for wanting to socialize in an MMO to the benefit of vets under the current system. |
Malphilos
State War Academy Caldari State
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:13:00 -
[92] - Quote
Donte wrote:
I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps.
You can.
It's an informal process: See someone from an offending corp, shoot them.
The best part is that it's completely stealthed, they don't even get notice!
However I would advise caution, most of not all of these corps have standing arraingements with Concord and things will go badly. Luckily the rest of your corp won't suffer for your foolishness. |
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:23:00 -
[93] - Quote
This is Eve Online, a player driven video game. It is not CCP driven. If you want to shoot them, then you are the only one stopping you. Accept the consequences or stop complaining. A good predator knows how to live in balance with his prey, lest he follow them into oblivion. |
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:27:00 -
[94] - Quote
Man, you just have to wonder. Aaaa, NOOOO!
I'm not saying it's an interesting idea. I'm just saying in my opinion. naaa.
I would support getting rid of all high sec, except for beginner system. and converting most of high sec to low sec. Then blast away. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:36:00 -
[95] - Quote
Donte wrote:FireT wrote:Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts? My thoughts are that you don't actually have intelligent thoughts. Why do idiots keep demanding the right, yes an actual right, to harass people whenever they wish? This is a sandbox game, meaning you can do whatever you wish and so can we. If you wish to fight, go fight. Lots of fights out there. But real fights is not what you are after. You want to be a bully in the sandbox on the internet out of all places. What a laughable tough guy. Go join the military or a fight club instead of bullying some random casual players. What a sad life. And your 'idea' proves that you are not smart enough to be considered stupid. if you cant attack the argument, attack the person making it! i like your strategy!
Actually I think it is laughable that everyone needs to fight. A lovely and bloody idea only true bullies would embrace. It is like asking to have no police in real life. Guess what happens. People will stop being in your community where there is no police. Similarly if you force everyone to fight CCP will have a mass exodus of your infamous carebears. So yes, a stupid idea is stupid. And a terrible business model.
Though if I am wrong, I am happy to let CCP do this and see what happens. |
McOboe
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:40:00 -
[96] - Quote
Seems like the OP just wants to be able to kill everyone without getting CONCORD'd. Easy solution for that- go to low-sec/null-sec/WH. Otherwise, just remove the security system entirely and make the entire game null-sec. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1261
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:47:00 -
[97] - Quote
FireT wrote:Similarly if you force everyone to fight CCP will have a mass exodus of your infamous carebears. There was no mass exodus during Hulkageddon Infinity, nor during the PI fix, or Inferno, etc. The only time mass exoduses have ever happened was when CCP began catering to carebears by implementing exclusively risk-free commodity/isk faucets, like Incursion, Incarna and Tyrannis. This is because the enjoyment derived by most players in EVE is from overcoming adversity, usually in the form of other players.
Players only use NPC corps to stick their PVE characters in because it competitively advantageous to do so. If NPC Corps were removed, or made risky in some manner, players would adapt; just like how the use of Covetors has exploded in highsec in the face of Hulk-pilot genocide - not by mass unsubs.
In short, your threat is an empty one, and we should go full on ahead in the move to ban NPC corps in the pursuit of a better, more balanced game. |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:54:00 -
[98] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:FireT wrote:Similarly if you force everyone to fight CCP will have a mass exodus of your infamous carebears. There was no mass exodus during Hulkageddon Infinity, nor during the PI fix, or Inferno, etc. The only time mass exoduses have ever happened was when CCP began catering to carebears by implementing exclusively risk-free commodity/isk faucets, like Incursion, Incarna and Tyrannis. This is because the enjoyment derived by most players in EVE is from overcoming adversity, usually in the form of other players. Players only use NPC corps to stick their PVE characters in because it competitively advantageous to do so. If NPC Corps were removed, or made risky in some manner, players would adapt; just like how the use of Covetors has exploded in highsec in the face of Hulk-pilot genocide - not by mass unsubs. In short, your threat is an empty one, and we should go full on ahead in the move to ban NPC corps in the pursuit of a better, more balanced game.
Please enlighten me, and I am going to assume others too, about these 'exclusive advantages'. As far as I know you are just as useful and useless as the average carebear. Why? BECAUSE YOU BOTH PAY THE SAME SUBSCRIPTION. Unless of course hardcore interwebzpiwats pay double. In which case, yes you are right and CCP should serve your needs.
Till then, if it is trying to attract the largest possible player base it needs NPC corps for casuals. |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:57:00 -
[99] - Quote
Donte wrote: you misunderstand EVE.
It is by nature a PVP game... Everything you do when interacting with the universe is PVP.
Mining a rock... PVP there are a limited amount of resources - if you mine it, someone else cant... Placing a sell order... PVP. you sell your widget, someone else didnt... Placing a buy order... PVP. you buy something for cheaper than another guy - that guy now has to spend more money... Mission running... What do you do with the proceeds of that activity? the moduals, the salvage, the ammo- you use them to PVP!
I keep coming across this argument on here, and it still isn't making sense to me. You can't define the word "versus" like that without taking intent into consideration. People don't necessarily mine a rock in order to deny that resource to another person, even if that's one of the effects. It's like, if I get on the bus and there's no seats left, it's isn't because everyone else is against me. They're just doing their own thing. To think otherwise, you'd have to be some kind of paranoid nutcase. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
83
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 19:58:00 -
[100] - Quote
McOboe wrote:Seems like the OP just wants to be able to kill everyone without getting CONCORD'd. Easy solution for that- go to low-sec/null-sec/WH.
Yeah, they would be able to avoid Concord that way, but if NPC corps would remain part of factions they would have a lot of other stuff to worry about. Current FW system would be of course applied to that war. |
|
Romar Agent
Ishukone Regional Headquarters
58
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:01:00 -
[101] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:... Players only use NPC corps to stick their PVE characters in because it competitively advantageous to do so. ... I'm basically NPCing in my own two-alts-corp. I would rather be in that or in an NPC corps than in a larger player corp, because other corplings would have a negative impact on my playing style.
I guess I'm not the only one. |
Sister Rhode
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:03:00 -
[102] - Quote
Combine NPC corps with faction warfare. NPC corps should just be the militia and vice versa. |
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
96
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:05:00 -
[103] - Quote
You guys have it wrong. NPC corps should be in a constant war-dec towards their opposing faction's NPC corps. For example, all Caldari-based NPC corps are at war with Gallente-based NPC corps.
*Leave the Noobcorps alone though (They usually end with "academy" or something)*
The catch is, The NPC faction police would open fire on their respective enemies. So all Caldari-based NPC corp members would be "red flashy" in Gallente space, making griefing extremely hard using these mechanics. PVP would be possible and would happen in a more "guerilla-style" type of encounter or on "neutral grounds" - in this case, amarr or minmatar space. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
306
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:09:00 -
[104] - Quote
Nah, NPC corps are a necessity for new players and casual players. There are a lot of players who abuse NPC corps for risk free logistics and such. I'd support more taxes and more things taxable (like market orders, refining, LP) on characters that choose to stay in NPC corps for a long time. I know people will just make one man corps but it's the best we can do unless you remake a lot of core game mechanics. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
209
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:09:00 -
[105] - Quote
Thor Kerrigan wrote:You guys have it wrong. NPC corps should be in a constant war-dec towards their opposing faction's NPC corps. For example, all Caldari-based NPC corps are at war with Gallente-based NPC corps.
*Leave the Noobcorps alone though (They usually end with "academy" or something)*
The catch is, The NPC faction police would open fire on their respective enemies. So all Caldari-based NPC corp members would be "red flashy" in Gallente space, making griefing extremely hard using these mechanics. PVP would be possible and would happen in a more "guerilla-style" type of encounter or on "neutral grounds" - in this case, amarr or minmatar space. You would probably need to change the default Gallente corp from the Scope to something else then. Most war correspondents I've seen would make terrible frontline combatants. |
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
88
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:14:00 -
[106] - Quote
tl;dr You're welcome to fight station guns. 'Safe' NPC corps give casuals a place to play. Your boredom is not their fault. They do give things up for it.
Assuming you leave the noob corps out of it, and only implement such a change for the NPC corp that folks get dumped in after they leave a player corp (because everyone 'has' to be in a corp).
So you wardec, say, Sebiestor Tribe, the one I was in. You now have hundreds or thousands of targets. All of these 'safe' people you couldn't freely shoot before. Have you forgotten that those NPC corps are part of the infrastructure of the empires? Do you think the NPC's would just let you sit on the undock and blow away their tribesmen because you paid a few million for a war-dec? No. As soon as you declared war on them, every Sebiestor run station would be given orders to fire upon you if you came within range. So, I mean sure, make that change. Those 'safe' people would still have station guns working for them. They'd be a little less safe out in the systems at large, but they'd still have safe spots to go to. All those industrialists you're worried are ruining the economy sitting in their CQ's would still be able to do business. All this gains you is the ability to hunt down missioners who aren't PvP fit, which I'm sure gives you a 'he should have been fit better even though PvE and PvP fits are completely at odds, so really it's his fault' boner.
And this is all leaving aside the fact that not everyone who plays the game has the time or inclination to fly in a world where they are always under threat of war-dec (which they would be) or suicide gank (which they are), and can't play the game in any kind of leisure time manner because you want more targets. If your corp is that boring, go fight someone who wants to fight. Someone who chose the PvP life and lives in an area that encourages it. Change the status quo in your area. Go play the game you have full right and access to play, and let everyone else do the same.
Lastly, concerning 'they give up nothing to be in an NPC corp': bull. They give up a huge chunk of the game. Sov, serious POS's, all of the empire building mechanics and capital ship construction. That's a lot of content they'll never see. But where else can a casual go that requires no more of his time than he is willing to spend? Maybe he lucks out and finds a 'whatever man' lo or null corp (I don't know any). The only way those organizations get to the things I just mentioned is by concerted effort. Going to war requires him to be there for battles. Et cetera. All things he may not have time for, or be able to get his schedule to coincide with. So NPC corps is the way to go. If he strikes out on his own and just makes a personal corp, he'll never get the resources together to field a station, defend it when he's away, refuel it, etc. The systems are built so that he needs back up.
And that's all fine, that it's built that way. But that means it doesn't work for everyone. And catering a part of the game to casual players expands your base, and guarantees that if the time ever comes that they want to try those other aspects, they've already got the groundwork for it, and the cash to try it. They may like it, they may not, but they have the option. Like the option to be in an un-deccable corp. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1261
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:17:00 -
[107] - Quote
FireT wrote:Please enlighten me, and I am going to assume others too, about these 'exclusive advantages'. As far as I know you are just as useful and useless as the average carebear. Why? BECAUSE YOU BOTH PAY THE SAME SUBSCRIPTION. Unless of course hardcore interwebzpiwats pay double. In which case, yes you are right and CCP should serve your needs.
Till then, if it is trying to attract the largest possible player base it needs NPC corps for casuals. True NPC corp 'casual players' would be the least effected of anyone if NPC corps were removed and replaced with a deccable individual system. Why? Because highsec wardec corps would go after the hardcore players (as you put it) who were using NPC corps to put mining/freighter/logistics alts in. Because they're the ones more likely to be online and have more loot then the 'casual player' who only plays 1-2 hours a week, right?
Do you think a system that favors the 60M sp PVE specialist alt at the expense of the of the newbie character in his first player-run corporation is really one that could be called casual and newbie friendly?
|
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:19:00 -
[108] - Quote
Since we are on absurd demands: why not get rid of high sec all together? That way new players can get their face shot in from day one and enjoy people in massive ships harassing them. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1261
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:33:00 -
[109] - Quote
FireT wrote:Since we are on absurd demands: why not get rid of high sec all together? That way new players can get their face shot in from day one and enjoy people in massive ships harassing them. They already can get their faces shot in from day one, just park a thrasher on the gate from a rookie system. NPC corps don't protect newbies in any way shape or form, they just punish the newbies who want to socialize in an MMO, which makes it absurd that 'think of the newbies' is such a common response to the proposal of removing NPC corps. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
209
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:35:00 -
[110] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:...NPC corps don't protect newbies in any way shape or form, they just punish the newbies who want to socialize in an MMO... How exactly are they punished? |
|
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:35:00 -
[111] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:FireT wrote:Similarly if you force everyone to fight CCP will have a mass exodus of your infamous carebears. There was no mass exodus during Hulkageddon Infinity, nor during the PI fix, or Inferno, etc. The only time mass exoduses have ever happened was when CCP began catering to carebears by implementing exclusively risk-free commodity/isk faucets, like Incursion, Incarna and Tyrannis. This is because the enjoyment derived by most players in EVE is from overcoming adversity, usually in the form of other players. Players only use NPC corps to stick their PVE characters in because it competitively advantageous to do so. If NPC Corps were removed, or made risky in some manner, players would adapt; just like how the use of Covetors has exploded in highsec in the face of Hulk-pilot genocide - not by mass unsubs. In short, your threat is an empty one, and we should go full on ahead in the move to ban NPC corps in the pursuit of a better, more balanced game.
Um, links to numbers please? I've played since EA and the only mass exodus that I have been privy to was the Incarna Exodus, of which my original character was a part of. A good predator knows how to live in balance with his prey, lest he follow them into oblivion. |
Implying Implications
cuties4life
118
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:37:00 -
[112] - Quote
I think it wouldn't be bad if the starter corp was immune to wars but characters in that corp were kicked out after 30 days into a different npc corp that can be involved in wars. Minmatar V3 gallery: http://minus.com/mOqXRikn5 |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1256
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:38:00 -
[113] - Quote
Vaal Erit wrote:Nah, NPC corps are a necessity for new players and casual players. There are a lot of players who abuse NPC corps for risk free logistics and such. I'd support more taxes and more things taxable (like market orders, refining, LP) on characters that choose to stay in NPC corps for a long time. I know people will just make one man corps but it's the best we can do unless you remake a lot of core game mechanics. This.
Introduce incremental corp taxes and penalties for characters over a certain age operating in an NPC corp. Not sure what the penalties would be though.
If NPC corp abuse and corp hopping/war dec evasion were fixed we could probably finally see some of those suicide ganking nerfs miners keep screaming for. As it stands though, suicide ganks are the only viable method for attacking most players when war evasion is so trivial and without penalty.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
150
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:40:00 -
[114] - Quote
Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts? NPC corps =/= Noob corps. they're different entities. NPC corps can only be entered after a player leaves a player corporation.
I smell yet another high sec wardec'er without the bawls to go to low or null. Why is it these types are the loudest whiners on GD? |
ashley Eoner
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:41:00 -
[115] - Quote
If NPC corps are so amazingly great then why aren't you in one?
This subject seems to boil down to the OP's fear that someone somewhere might be using the NPC corp to avoid something..
Either that or the OP wants to get his grief on with the newbies..
My main has 2.5m sp but I already learned that it's never a good idea to attract attention. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1262
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:42:00 -
[116] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:...NPC corps don't protect newbies in any way shape or form, they just punish the newbies who want to socialize in an MMO... How exactly are they punished? By moving much of the high-yield targets outside the purvue of a wardec, it's the newbies who don't know how to evade wardecs that eat the brunt of highsec PVP. By making all players equally wardecable, the pressure on ganking newbies is decreased, while the pressure on ganking cargo-laden freighters and pimpfit ratters once under NPC corp protection is increased. |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
315
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:51:00 -
[117] - Quote
Where did the nullsec game go?
While I also don't think veteran folks should be able to hide in NPC corps to avoid wars, I do think that all this focus on killing high sec players is misplaced. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1256
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:54:00 -
[118] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:Where did the nullsec game go?
While I also don't think veteran folks should be able to hide in NPC corps to avoid wars, I do think that all this focus on killing high sec players is misplaced. The problem is a lot of those high sec players avoiding wars are null sec players.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
211
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 20:57:00 -
[119] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:By moving much of the high-yield targets outside the purvue of a wardec, it's the newbies who don't know how to evade wardecs that eat the brunt of highsec PVP. By making all players equally wardecable, the pressure on ganking newbies is decreased, while the pressure on ganking cargo-laden freighters and pimpfit ratters once under NPC corp protection is increased. An interesting point. |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
316
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:02:00 -
[120] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Ana Vyr wrote:Where did the nullsec game go?
While I also don't think veteran folks should be able to hide in NPC corps to avoid wars, I do think that all this focus on killing high sec players is misplaced. The problem is a lot of those high sec players avoiding wars are null sec players.
You mean that these players don't actually enjoy PvP constantly????
Surely you are joking. |
|
ashley Eoner
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:03:00 -
[121] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:Where did the nullsec game go?
While I also don't think veteran folks should be able to hide in NPC corps to avoid wars, I do think that all this focus on killing high sec players is misplaced. Apparently they are bored with Nullsec and instead are trying to find as many ways as possible to grief newbies with as few consequences as possible.
Despite being roughly 11 months old my character only has 2.5ish million SP because I was forced to quit shortly after starting the game. Since I"m back I've been trying to get into a couple corporations but so far they all seem to think I'm some sort of spy and that I'm not really a newie... So part of the problem is that newbies have a hard time finding a decent corp that will give them a chance which leaves mostly scammer corps.. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1259
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:05:00 -
[122] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote:Ana Vyr wrote:Where did the nullsec game go?
While I also don't think veteran folks should be able to hide in NPC corps to avoid wars, I do think that all this focus on killing high sec players is misplaced. The problem is a lot of those high sec players avoiding wars are null sec players. You mean that these players don't actually enjoy PvP constantly???? Surely you are joking. Or more accurately war decs are not conducive to the smooth running of their 20 man high sec bot mining fleet.
But seriously, NPC corp haulers etc.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Ziranda Hakuli
Relativity Holding Corp AAA Citizens
89
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:12:00 -
[123] - Quote
AWWWW!!! Op must have aKill On sight list which is borderline EULA violation. cry me a river my mug is empty |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
317
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:12:00 -
[124] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Ana Vyr wrote:Where did the nullsec game go?
While I also don't think veteran folks should be able to hide in NPC corps to avoid wars, I do think that all this focus on killing high sec players is misplaced. Apparently they are bored with Nullsec and instead are trying to find as many ways as possible to grief newbies with as few consequences as possible. Despite being roughly 11 months old my character only has 2.5ish million SP because I was forced to quit shortly after starting the game. Since I"m back I've been trying to get into a couple corporations but so far they all seem to think I'm some sort of spy and that I'm not really a newie... So part of the problem is that newbies have a hard time finding a decent corp that will give them a chance which leaves mostly scammer corps..
One of the "rules" is this:
Don't trust anyone.
What an awesome rule for a cooperative multiplayer game eh?
Sadly, this rule is 100% pure wisdom in EvE as I discovered the hard way long ago. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1259
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:19:00 -
[125] - Quote
Ana Vyr wrote:One of the "rules" is this:
Don't trust anyone.
What an awesome rule for a cooperative multiplayer game eh?
Sadly, this rule is 100% pure wisdom in EvE as I discovered the hard way long ago. The general rule is don't trust anyone you don't... well... trust.
I've lent plenty of in game friends ISK, I even let one of them borrow my Wyvern a while back, all without issue. The difference is between trusting people and trusting people blindly.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:21:00 -
[126] - Quote
I can see the evil grin on the devs face already. Sure they will make it so the NPC corps can be wardeced. But these NPC corps belong to the devs. They will install a war plan for each NPC corp. Once some corp war decs them they will ramp up production and will fleet huge fleets to protect their NPC space and more to attack the aggressor. Suddenly you will be facing NPC fleets 20 times the size of your own. They might even hunt down your corps home base and destroy it.
These are the home race NPC corps. 4 of them and each ismany times the size of any player owned corp. With almost unlimited resources by comparison to a player run corp. The devs will see to it that any player corp that wants to declare war on an NPC corp will feel the total weight of an empire.
So what are faction wars? Well those are wars between nearly equal powers. No way can any player run corp hope to compare with the power of an empire. |
Kimmi Chan
Illuminatus Reforged The Revenant Order
115
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:21:00 -
[127] - Quote
OK so to sum up.
We're talking about making it possible to declare war on an NPC Corporation?
Here is what I envision happening.
Wardeccer Corp declares war on Caldari Provisions. Everyone in Caldari Provisions stops doing anything, sits in station, and plays Skill Queue Online until war is over.
You can not force someone into a fight. A more productive endeavor might be to look for someone who does want to fight. Players hiding in the NPC Corps are hiding there to avoid wardecs. Making the corp war-deccable does not change the fact that the player does not want to engage in that activity and they will either wait it out in the station or unsub. In either case, you are not increasing your number of targets. -á"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus |
Andrea Roche
State War Academy Caldari State
104
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:22:00 -
[128] - Quote
i agree NPC characters should not be able to fly freighters period while they are in NPC corp. I thing this defenetly needs change. Big alliances are hidding behind this.
|
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1259
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:23:00 -
[129] - Quote
Kimmi Chan wrote:OK so to sum up.
We're talking about making it possible to declare war on an NPC Corporation?
Here is what I envision happening.
Wardeccer Corp declares war on Caldari Provisions. Everyone in Caldari Provisions stops doing anything, sits in station, and plays Skill Queue Online until war is over.
You can not force someone into a fight. A more productive endeavor might be to look for someone who does want to fight. Players hiding in the NPC Corps are hiding there to avoid wardecs. Making the corp war-deccable does not change the fact that the player does not want to engage in that activity and they will either wait it out in the station or unsub. In either case, you are not increasing your number of targets. I think the conversation has gone more toward heavier penalties for older players who remain in NPC corps/NPC corp alts.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1045
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:28:00 -
[130] - Quote
Andrea Roche wrote:i agree NPC characters should not be able to fly freighters period while they are in NPC corp. I thing this defenetly needs change. Big alliances are hidding behind this. Of course big alliances are using neutral alts, be it altcorps or NPC corps.
Does anyone think we undock our freighters into the Jita campers?
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd |
|
Nick Bete
The Scope Gallente Federation
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:38:00 -
[131] - Quote
Oh goody, it's this bad idea again.
Not everyone wants to be a biological NPC for your pleasure, OP. I was in player-run corps before. I choose to remain in an NPC corp because I would feel like I wasn't contributing to a player-run corp due to the small amount of time I have available. Others have various, equally valid, reasons for remaining in an NPC corp. Who are you to decide how I play the game? As long as CCP charges my credit card every month, not yours, I get to decide how I want to play the game.
Please remember that Eve is a game for entertainment purposes. Guys like you want to turn it into some kind of second job. I say no thanks to that. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1259
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:40:00 -
[132] - Quote
Nick Bete wrote:Oh goody, it's this bad idea again. Not everyone wants to be a biological NPC for your pleasure, OP. I was in player-run corps before. I choose to remain in an NPC corp because I would feel like I wasn't contributing to a player-run corp due to the small amount of time I have available. Others have various, equally valid, reasons for remaining in an NPC corp. Who are you to decide how I play the game? As long as CCP charges my credit card every month, not yours, I get to decide how I want to play the game. Please remember that Eve is a game for entertainment purposes. Guys like you want to turn it into some kind of second job. I say no thanks to that. We get to decide how to play the game just by paying for it?
CCP I'll take seven titans and a module that generates ISK when active. Please send them to this account ASAP since I am paying for this game and have decided that I want to play it on easy mode.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
211
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:40:00 -
[133] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Kimmi Chan wrote:OK so to sum up.
We're talking about making it possible to declare war on an NPC Corporation?
Here is what I envision happening.
Wardeccer Corp declares war on Caldari Provisions. Everyone in Caldari Provisions stops doing anything, sits in station, and plays Skill Queue Online until war is over.
You can not force someone into a fight. A more productive endeavor might be to look for someone who does want to fight. Players hiding in the NPC Corps are hiding there to avoid wardecs. Making the corp war-deccable does not change the fact that the player does not want to engage in that activity and they will either wait it out in the station or unsub. In either case, you are not increasing your number of targets. I think the conversation has gone more toward heavier penalties for older players who remain in NPC corps/NPC corp alts. The end result probably hold true in both situations. Either NPC corps become decable and people dock up and play skill queue online or they leave due to conditions becoming more restrictive, go to a player or 1man corp and play skill queue online when dec'd. For those that want to avoid fights, it doesn't matter where it's done. |
Nick Bete
The Scope Gallente Federation
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:43:00 -
[134] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote: We get to decide how to play the game just by paying for it?
CCP I'll take seven titans and a module that generates ISK when active. Please send them to this account ASAP since I am paying for this game and have decided that I want to play it on easy mode.
I can see you fail at both logic and reading comprehension. Do the words "sandbox-style MMORPG" mean anything to you? |
Kyle Valentine
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:52:00 -
[135] - Quote
I have good standings with all empires, and activities in each four. I don't want to fight my beloved friends ! Let me be a simple citizen who pay his taxes for protection, without corp. Or let me join the Interbus. I will do it now if I can. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
211
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:53:00 -
[136] - Quote
Kyle Valentine wrote:I have good standings with all empires, and activities in each four. I don't want to fight my beloved friends ! Let me be a simple citizen who pay his taxes for protection, without corp. Or let me join the Interbus. I will do it now if I can. EVERYONE! PILE ON THE INTERBUS! |
Cloned S0ul
Blood Fanatics
125
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:55:00 -
[137] - Quote
Stop panic ... Stupid idea not worth to mention, NPC corporations exists because newbis need them as start point, NPC corporations are part of EvE background, NPC corps aren't strongholds , if you realy want you can still gank those who in npc corporations, exctep newbis... They are designed to move people to player corps, because big taxes and limited possibilities etc.
I dont get OP point, grab guns shot somone... |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1259
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:57:00 -
[138] - Quote
Nick Bete wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote: We get to decide how to play the game just by paying for it?
CCP I'll take seven titans and a module that generates ISK when active. Please send them to this account ASAP since I am paying for this game and have decided that I want to play it on easy mode.
I can see you fail at both logic and reading comprehension. Do the words "sandbox-style MMORPG" mean anything to you? I don't think a sand box MMO is what you think it is, you're operating under the (admittedly common) misconception that a sand box game design philosophy means you can do whatever you want without interference from other players.
This is incorrect.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 21:58:00 -
[139] - Quote
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:FireT wrote:Similarly if you force everyone to fight CCP will have a mass exodus of your infamous carebears. There was no mass exodus during Hulkageddon Infinity, nor during the PI fix, or Inferno, etc. The only time mass exoduses have ever happened was when CCP began catering to carebears by implementing exclusively risk-free commodity/isk faucets, like Incursion, Incarna and Tyrannis. This is because the enjoyment derived by most players in EVE is from overcoming adversity, usually in the form of other players. Players only use NPC corps to stick their PVE characters in because it competitively advantageous to do so. If NPC Corps were removed, or made risky in some manner, players would adapt; just like how the use of Covetors has exploded in highsec in the face of Hulk-pilot genocide - not by mass unsubs. In short, your threat is an empty one, and we should go full on ahead in the move to ban NPC corps in the pursuit of a better, more balanced game. Um, links to numbers please? I've played since EA and the only mass exodus that I have been privy to was the Incarna Exodus, of which my original character was a part of.
No need for numbers. Use your brain.
You yourself mentioned that people left because of Incarna. An expansion designed o try something new and that HAD NO IMPACT on your PvP. Yet ragers raged and quit.
Now imagine the OP's idea and the fact that it actually DOES affect people and their play style. You really think that people will remain if their type of preferred gaming is gone? Really? |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1265
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:00:00 -
[140] - Quote
Kimmi Chan wrote:OK so to sum up.
We're talking about making it possible to declare war on an NPC Corporation?
Here is what I envision happening.
Wardeccer Corp declares war on Caldari Provisions. Everyone in Caldari Provisions stops doing anything, sits in station, and plays Skill Queue Online until war is over.
You can not force someone into a fight. A more productive endeavor might be to look for someone who does want to fight. Players hiding in the NPC Corps are hiding there to avoid wardecs. Making the corp war-deccable does not change the fact that the player does not want to engage in that activity and they will either wait it out in the station or unsub. In either case, you are not increasing your number of targets. OP argues to make deccing NPC corps possible. I disagree and argue that NPC corps aren't necessary at all, and should just be replaced with a 'freelancer' system where players are individually deccable. Some players want to play EVE solo, and I respect that. I just don't think they need wardec immunity as a crutch to do so, especially when the use of alts creates so many problems with the system. |
|
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1259
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:02:00 -
[141] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The end result probably hold true in both situations. Either NPC corps become decable and people dock up and play skill queue online or they leave due to conditions becoming more restrictive, go to a player or 1man corp and play skill queue online when dec'd. For those that want to avoid fights, it doesn't matter where it's done. Those that want to avoid fights via corp hopping and in-game police protection are probably playing the wrong game. If you wish to avoid combat, it should be via player skill. Especially for older players.
I understand the need for NPC corp protection for newer players, but when it comes to multi-year old NPC corp orcas/jump freighters etc. it's simply an abused system.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
211
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:13:00 -
[142] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Those that want to avoid fights via corp hopping and in-game police protection are probably playing the wrong game. When loss has a price, loss aversion, and as a result combat aversion, is to be expected I'd think. Fortunately the game seems to afford other activities than ship to ship PvP. If this weren't the case, then perhaps I'd have to agree. As things currently are, it makes sense to avoid something which assures loss and holds no benefit. |
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
Perkone Caldari State
165
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:14:00 -
[143] - Quote
FireT wrote: Actually I think it is laughable that everyone needs to fight. A lovely and bloody idea only true bullies would embrace. It is like asking to have no police in real life. Guess what happens. People will stop being in your community where there is no police.
This is the truest statement made today in GD. Ohh poor silly goon chillrens. Nobody in high sec cares about your plans to occupy jita like a bunch of dirty hippies. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
Perkone Caldari State
166
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:15:00 -
[144] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:
I understand the need for NPC corp protection for newer players, but when it comes to multi-year old NPC corp orcas/jump freighters etc. it's simply an abused system.
It's a Sandbox. Everyone has a right to do whatever they want....or to make the attempt. Ohh poor silly goon chillrens. Nobody in high sec cares about your plans to occupy jita like a bunch of dirty hippies. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1266
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:22:00 -
[145] - Quote
sandbox = we must have badly abused mechanics that make pvp optional thanks for that contribution |
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
Perkone Caldari State
166
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:23:00 -
[146] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:(yawns) All I can hear is the sound of one hand clapping. What a seriously silly idea here. Why even spend one mental moment on this when you know ahead of time this will go absolutely nowhere with CCP. Lets here some more great ideas on how to murder new EVE players. Good job guys. Maybe we could spread the word of how safe POSs are in high-sec and how there aren't any consequences for our words and deeds. Maybe we should post more "I Quit" threads, Krixtal. Yeah, that's just what New Eden needs. Did you even read my suggestion? I'm trying to give NPC corps a tool that ends their obvious and stinking stagnation. You must really love Eve, Krixtal to want to ruin it so!
Your fixation on my other dead account has crossed the border officially into CREEPY territory and has been reported to CCP. Ohh poor silly goon chillrens. Nobody in high sec cares about your plans to occupy jita like a bunch of dirty hippies. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
137
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:24:00 -
[147] - Quote
Donte wrote:... Thoughts? ...
No, those were not, but keep trying.
I'm an American, English is my second language... |
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
365
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:26:00 -
[148] - Quote
Dumbest idea ever. But there's always tomorrow. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1260
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:28:00 -
[149] - Quote
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:It's a Sandbox. Everyone has a right to do whatever they want....or to make the attempt. Exactly, but it is when players believe they are entitled to some odd non-interference pact that things become problematic.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote:Those that want to avoid fights via corp hopping and in-game police protection are probably playing the wrong game. When loss has a price, loss aversion, and as a result combat aversion, is to be expected I'd think. Fortunately the game seems to afford other activities than ship to ship PvP. If this weren't the case, then perhaps I'd have to agree. As things currently are, it makes sense to avoid something which assures loss and holds no benefit. Of course, and I primarily engage in those "other" activities. I spend most of my time in game running complexes and wormholes, and I am extremely paranoid and risk averse when I do so.
But at the same time I recognise the fact that the market, and indeed Eve in general, relies on a certain level of ship destruction. Risk free PvE results in the kind of mudflation we have seen in recent years, and it needs to be hit on the head before it becomes a genuine issue.
Not to mention the fact that, let's be honest, PvE in this game simply isn't challenging. While we may at times hate that we are being hunted whilst we are trying to make our billions, this is where the fun comes from. The challenge of making all that ISK, despite people trying to stop you.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1267
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:28:00 -
[150] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:Dumbest idea ever. But there's always tomorrow. There's been much dumber, like "leave NPC Corps as is". |
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Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:31:00 -
[151] - Quote
If you want to pvp against NPCs corps, then why not wardec the entire empire that NPC corp belongs to and all its member corps and PC corps headquartered there? The purpose of hi sec isn't to eliminate PvP but to weed out the dumb pvpers. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1260
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:35:00 -
[152] - Quote
Linna Excel wrote:If you want to pvp against NPCs corps, then why not wardec the entire empire that NPC corp belongs to and all its member corps and PC corps headquartered there? Because you can't do that? Although it would be amusing.
Anyway, I recognise the need for NPC corps for newbie. But anyone claiming the NPC corp hulks/golems/jfs floating around high sec are newbies is simply a liar.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Diablo Ex
Red-Five
41
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:47:00 -
[153] - Quote
I would compare this question to a Boxing Match.
The "Ring" is the PvP Sandbox The Bell Rings and the Two boxers come forward and slug it out, at the end of the round they go to neutral corners. Your requesting the ability to push the Ref aside, go into the oponents corner, and continue to pummel both your opponent, and also his manager, ring assistant, and maybe some members of the audience...
You are a Brute and a Heathen. A pathetic Bully. You would have people quitting EvE in droves to escape from the continual buchery you would wreck upon the weaker.
PRO SYNERGY - We salvage and process the loot, and pay YOU for it. Proven methodology, weekly payout, great attitude. - join game channel "Pro Synergy" for details. http://sites.google.com/site/prospersynergy/ |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:50:00 -
[154] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:I can see the evil grin on the devs face already. Sure they will make it so the NPC corps can be wardeced. But these NPC corps belong to the devs. They will install a war plan for each NPC corp. Once some corp war decs them they will ramp up production and will fleet huge fleets to protect their NPC space and more to attack the aggressor. Suddenly you will be facing NPC fleets 20 times the size of your own. They might even hunt down your corps home base and destroy it.
These are the home race NPC corps. 4 of them and each ismany times the size of any player owned corp. With almost unlimited resources by comparison to a player run corp. The devs will see to it that any player corp that wants to declare war on an NPC corp will feel the total weight of an empire.
want
|
Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
382
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:53:00 -
[155] - Quote
My goodness, OP.
Stop acting like the carebears who have entitlement issues. If you can't wardec them, GANK THEM!!!!!!!
You can do that, you know. Just find the target, ships scan them, bring out a Catalyst, Thorax, or maybe a Tornado and shoot them. CCP will not ban you for that. In fact, they highly encouraged it. So what if you lose sec status? There are ways to get around that, you know.
I'm in a NPC corp and I had no problems shooting some mining ships. And the ironic part is that I'm a miner as well. Adapt or Die |
Makkal Hanaya
Drakenburg
153
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:53:00 -
[156] - Quote
nate555 wrote:You would want the powerfull navy's of the amarr empire to come down on you? A thousand planets of the Amarr empire descend upon you. Our Abaddons will blot out the sun! although my eyes were open they might have just as well've been closed
|
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1262
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:54:00 -
[157] - Quote
Diablo Ex wrote:Your requesting the ability to push the Ref aside, go into the oponents corner, and continue to pummel both your opponent, and also his manager, ring assistant, and maybe some members of the audience... I've never heard Eve Online summed up so eloquently.
Bravo.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:56:00 -
[158] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Linna Excel wrote:If you want to pvp against NPCs corps, then why not wardec the entire empire that NPC corp belongs to and all its member corps and PC corps headquartered there? Because you can't do that? Although it would be amusing. Anyway, I recognise the need for NPC corps for newbie. But anyone claiming the NPC corp hulks/golems/jfs floating around high sec are newbies is simply a liar.
True enough.
Here's how I see it:
- Technically the NPC corps are part of the empires, if you you want to declare war on them, you'd have to declare war on that empire which they are part of. In other words CAS, FNA, the Scope and all the rest would automatically be allies. As would the ships guarding every gate. Maybe the minmatars as well.
- The NPC corps aren't really run by or controlled by individual players; basically there's no leadership and trying to get the whole corp acting together is like herding cats. Of all the people in CAS, there's a handful of regulars I recognize in our chatroom but for the other 250 or so in it online every night, I hear nothing of them. Too many people just aren't involved with them.
- Building off of the last one, the NPC corps are largely a group of soloers who occasionally help each other out in a pinch.
- Players in NPC corps can't do some of the other things that players in real corps can, like hire allies or build POSes with research or industry slots just for that corp to use.
- The taxes paid to NPC corps are one of the few true ISK sinks (more like flow regulators though) in the game, so in a way the players in them are contributing to the game by lowering how much ISK comes in. This is a small reason why they should have some immunity to war deccing.
- ???
- Boobs and Bacon
Basically the NPC corps aren't regular corporations as far as the gameplay is concerned so they need to be treated differently. The purpose of hi sec isn't to eliminate PvP but to weed out the dumb pvpers. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1262
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 23:03:00 -
[159] - Quote
Linna Excel wrote:Here's how I see it:
- Technically the NPC corps are part of the empires, if you you want to declare war on them, you'd have to declare war on that empire which they are part of. In other words CAS, FNA, the Scope and all the rest would automatically be allies. As would the ships guarding every gate. Maybe the minmatars as well.
- The NPC corps aren't really run by or controlled by individual players; basically there's no leadership and trying to get the whole corp acting together is like herding cats. Of all the people in CAS, there's a handful of regulars I recognize in our chatroom but for the other 250 or so in it online every night, I hear nothing of them. Too many people just aren't involved with them.
- Building off of the last one, the NPC corps are largely a group of soloers who occasionally help each other out in a pinch.
- Players in NPC corps can't do some of the other things that players in real corps can, like hire allies or build POSes with research or industry slots just for that corp to use.
- The taxes paid to NPC corps are one of the few true ISK sinks (more like flow regulators though) in the game, so in a way the players in them are contributing to the game by lowering how much ISK comes in. This is a small reason why they should have some immunity to war deccing.
- ???
- Boobs and Bacon
Basically the NPC corps aren't regular corporations as far as the gameplay is concerned so they need to be treated differently. To be honest, I'm not too interested in declaring way on NPC corps. I would however like to see incremental penalties for being in an NPC corp as an older player.
As for NPC corp taxes being a flow regulator, that is somewhat irrelevant when NPC corp alts are used primarily by older players for tasks that do not suffer from taxation (like hauling and mining).
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
1508
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 23:04:00 -
[160] - Quote
Henry Haphorn wrote:My goodness, OP.
Stop acting like the carebears who have entitlement issues. If you can't wardec them, GANK THEM!!!!!!!
You can do that, you know. Just find the target, ships scan them, bring out a Catalyst, Thorax, or maybe a Tornado and shoot them. CCP will not ban you for that. In fact, they highly encouraged it. So what if you lose sec status? There are ways to get around that, you know.
I'm in a NPC corp and I had no problems shooting some mining ships. And the ironic part is that I'm a miner as well.
see, that's the problem in a nutshell
The op wraps his plea in the cloak of "eve shouldn't be safe" while his plea actually results in his own improved safety while reducing the relative safety of his foe.
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
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Kyle Valentine
Aliastra Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 23:18:00 -
[161] - Quote
I came from an UO shard without NPC at all (except monsters), and full loot. I think it's not an impossible thing to do in a bigger game, if players REALLY needs others players. I don't know, regulary rogue drones invasions who disturbs operations but give nothing when killed. You don't want to do that yourself, so you make a contract for a noob or two. Things like that. We already had that for harvesting with buying orders. Make more of that kind.
Without NPC, there was real consequences. Player's driven police NEVER forgot you. They can't be bait and actually have a brain... As pirates. Give the noob a choice of player's driven corps to join when subbing, it's worth all the world's tutorials. And if, like me, they don't want to be too involved (for a time), give them the choice to be independant and pay taxes (or being the Concord captain girlfriend :D )
NPC corp are too abused for being a good system, all nullseccers hides their alts in. It's not a good thing for the game. Sure I will regret telling that if they remove NPC corps, but I hope it will be for a better system. I prefer to pay taxes to players for a true protection than to an NPC system who don't care (and can't be bribe for a little "extra protection"). |
Betrinna Cantis
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 23:24:00 -
[162] - Quote
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:FireT wrote:Similarly if you force everyone to fight CCP will have a mass exodus of your infamous carebears. There was no mass exodus during Hulkageddon Infinity, nor during the PI fix, or Inferno, etc. The only time mass exoduses have ever happened was when CCP began catering to carebears by implementing exclusively risk-free commodity/isk faucets, like Incursion, Incarna and Tyrannis. This is because the enjoyment derived by most players in EVE is from overcoming adversity, usually in the form of other players. Players only use NPC corps to stick their PVE characters in because it competitively advantageous to do so. If NPC Corps were removed, or made risky in some manner, players would adapt; just like how the use of Covetors has exploded in highsec in the face of Hulk-pilot genocide - not by mass unsubs. In short, your threat is an empty one, and we should go full on ahead in the move to ban NPC corps in the pursuit of a better, more balanced game. Quote:Um, links to numbers please? I've played since EA and the only mass exodus that I have been privy to was the Incarna Exodus, of which my original character was a part of. but here you are................ Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares..... |
Betrinna Cantis
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 23:36:00 -
[163] - Quote
]
One of the "rules" is this:
Don't trust anyone.
What an awesome rule for a cooperative multiplayer game eh?
Sadly, this rule is 100% pure wisdom in EvE as I discovered the hard way long ago.[/quote] This is also a "rule" in the prison system. If you want to make things really interesting... Link API's to main charaters to their alts so that when the main is at war their alt is also.... Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares..... |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 23:46:00 -
[164] - Quote
Betrinna Cantis wrote:] If you want to make things really interesting... Link API's to main charaters to their alts so that when the main is at war their alt is also....
I wish that would have an effect, but people have multiple accounts as well as alts on a single account
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1263
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 23:52:00 -
[165] - Quote
Betrinna Cantis wrote:This is also a "rule" in the prison system. If you want to make things really interesting... Link API's to main charaters to their alts so that when the main is at war their alt is also.... That is actually the first thing they asked last time I was in prison.
I was all standing there naked, covered in flea powder, with some guard shouting at me "LINK ME YOUR API NEWB".
It was horrifying
xxx
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
214
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 23:55:00 -
[166] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Of course, and I primarily engage in those "other" activities. I spend most of my time in game running complexes and wormholes, and I am extremely paranoid and risk averse when I do so.
But at the same time I recognise the fact that the market, and indeed Eve in general, relies on a certain level of ship destruction. Risk free PvE results in the kind of mudflation we have seen in recent years, and it needs to be hit on the head before it becomes a genuine issue.
Not to mention the fact that, let's be honest, PvE in this game simply isn't challenging. While we may at times hate that we are being hunted whilst we are trying to make our billions, this is where the fun comes from. The challenge of making all that ISK, despite people trying to stop you. True as this is, things like "the nature of the game" or "economic needs" still create inclination for an individual to subject themselves to loss unless at need or risk of losing something they value greater. Those come from other desires within the person themselves. My initial response was more to the somewhat commonly put forth notion that not enjoying ship to ship PvP specifically, and actively avoiding it is an indication that one is playing the wrong game.
I like this game for other reasons entirely than "PvP in every act" or the player driven market, but those do help contribute to my enjoyment of the game as it gives a self sustaining life to the game and it's players. As you say risk does at times provide some sense of achievement, but a goal in and of itself it is not. In the end I could just be doing it wrong, but it was my thought that, if you could get away with it, there was no wrong way to play.
Perhaps I was mistaken. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1264
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:04:00 -
[167] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote:Of course, and I primarily engage in those "other" activities. I spend most of my time in game running complexes and wormholes, and I am extremely paranoid and risk averse when I do so.
But at the same time I recognise the fact that the market, and indeed Eve in general, relies on a certain level of ship destruction. Risk free PvE results in the kind of mudflation we have seen in recent years, and it needs to be hit on the head before it becomes a genuine issue.
Not to mention the fact that, let's be honest, PvE in this game simply isn't challenging. While we may at times hate that we are being hunted whilst we are trying to make our billions, this is where the fun comes from. The challenge of making all that ISK, despite people trying to stop you. True as this is, things like "the nature of the game" or "economic needs" still create inclination for an individual to subject themselves to loss unless at need or risk of losing something they value greater. Those come from other desires within the person themselves. My initial response was more to the somewhat commonly put forth notion that not enjoying ship to ship PvP specifically, and actively avoiding it is an indication that one is playing the wrong game. I like this game for other reasons entirely than "PvP in every act" or the player driven market, but those do help contribute to my enjoyment of the game as it gives a self sustaining life to the game and it's players. As you say risk does at times provide some sense of achievement, but a goal in and of itself it is not. In the end I could just be doing it wrong, but it was my thought that, if you could get away with it, there was no wrong way to play. Perhaps I was mistaken. There is no "wrong way to play", but game mechanics and game design philosophies are something decided out of game.
Everything is allowed within the mechanics of the game, but when it comes to discussions on what those mechanics should be anything goes. It is important however to remember, as many people on these forums are liable to forget, that there is no disconnected "I'm not effecting anyone else" play style.
Everyone in Eve has an impact, whether they are impacting the market and actively causing mudflation or driving new players away via griefing. As such mechanics must, at times, be designed to limit the negative impact of certain play styles.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:06:00 -
[168] - Quote
FireT wrote:Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:FireT wrote:Similarly if you force everyone to fight CCP will have a mass exodus of your infamous carebears. There was no mass exodus during Hulkageddon Infinity, nor during the PI fix, or Inferno, etc. The only time mass exoduses have ever happened was when CCP began catering to carebears by implementing exclusively risk-free commodity/isk faucets, like Incursion, Incarna and Tyrannis. This is because the enjoyment derived by most players in EVE is from overcoming adversity, usually in the form of other players. Players only use NPC corps to stick their PVE characters in because it competitively advantageous to do so. If NPC Corps were removed, or made risky in some manner, players would adapt; just like how the use of Covetors has exploded in highsec in the face of Hulk-pilot genocide - not by mass unsubs. In short, your threat is an empty one, and we should go full on ahead in the move to ban NPC corps in the pursuit of a better, more balanced game. Um, links to numbers please? I've played since EA and the only mass exodus that I have been privy to was the Incarna Exodus, of which my original character was a part of. No need for numbers. Use your brain. You yourself mentioned that people left because of Incarna. An expansion designed o try something new and that HAD NO IMPACT on your PvP. Yet ragers raged and quit. Now imagine the OP's idea and the fact that it actually DOES affect people and their play style. You really think that people will remain if their type of preferred gaming is gone? Really?
Actually, no, there is a need for numbers. A claim has been made stating that there were mass exoduses because of multiple expansions. I'm asking for solid numbers, because using my head means not believing everything i read as the absolute truth without questioning it. Incarna was a massive failure in and of itself, which is why people left in droves and CCP backpedaled so fast we all actually de-aged a little bit. From Quantum Rise to Incursion, I never once saw anything resembling an exodus. People left because the game was stale, and the few additions made were ships that were relatively niche and for the most part useless. Saying people left because of a lack of PvP is really reaching, because those expansions saw things like Hulkageddon being born, and an upswing in hisec ganks, as well as nulsec shifting like a violently shaking amoebic lifeform.
Honestly, let NPC corps be decced, under the exact same rules as deccing a PC corp, i.e. if there are 500 players in this corp, then you have to pay the cost for deccing a 500 player corp. Additionally, you are free game to NPC forces of that corp, and can be attacked at will by them. You can, of course, attack those forces as well. Personally, I hope CCP gives you what you want, just be sure you want what you get.
One thing people really need to remember is that the term SANDBOX only applies as long as you are not coming into contact with anyone else. As soon as you do, the game ceases being a true sandbox and becomes more of a battle of wills, to see who will get their way and who will have to get out of the way. Essentially, I can do whatever I want in a sandbox when I am by myself. however, once others join me, my choices diminish. This holds true for each successive member joining in the box. A good predator knows how to live in balance with his prey, lest he follow them into oblivion. |
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
130
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:07:00 -
[169] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Alexa Coates wrote:Jesus christ, stop trying to MAKE people fight you. Go shoot some other miners you freaks. This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness. Newbies should be protected to a point yes, but players who can affect the game in any way AFTER a newbie period (as in my other post, I suggest 6 months) should be liable to experiance the negative aspects of the game in full. One of those negative aspects is being invovled in a war. Rookie Corps are not the same as Bittervet NPC Corps. Make NPC corps dec-vulnerable. Leave Rookie corps alone. All semblance of ill-intent vanishes, because a rookie cannot be in an NPC corp without having first joined a player corp to get out of the Rookie corp. Clear as mud, right?
What happens when someone joins a player corp after 2 days, corp folds/gets kicked/doesn't like it, and goes back to an NPC corp? Not everyone in the other corps are bitter vets and bots. |
Hammer Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:13:00 -
[170] - Quote
I did not know Arnon was on the protected list. So if I complain to a GM about the 2 can flipers that got me last month in Arnon when I was only weeks old then I can get them baned. Hmm and it so happens they both have posted in threads like this one recently as well. I can see the fear they have in their posts. They are guilty of this and it is not just me, they have done this repeatedly to many rookies in Arnon. It is what they do daily. The people that do this do it as a way of life. Grief on the newbies. I think the GM's know this as well. That is why they come down on them so hard. It is never just one mistake like some of these posters want you to believe. They prey upon the rookies as a way of life and are most upset that the GM's are making their playstyle off limits. |
|
Kyle Valentine
Aliastra Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:20:00 -
[171] - Quote
There's a solution to deal with multiples accounts. A security standings lost (with a warning window) when you deal (by contracts, market, etc.) with a character with a negative status. If you deal with criminals, you're certainly one of them ! |
Jonah Gravenstein
479
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:24:00 -
[172] - Quote
I saw Arnon and thought of Socratic, is he still picking on mission runners after his sudden sec status loss? War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1264
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:29:00 -
[173] - Quote
Hammer Crendraven wrote:I did not know Arnon was on the protected list. So if I complain to a GM about the 2 can flipers that got me last month in Arnon when I was only weeks old then I can get them baned. Hmm and it so happens they both have posted in threads like this one recently as well. I can see the fear they have in their posts. They are guilty of this and it is not just me, they have done this repeatedly to many rookies in Arnon. It is what they do daily. The people that do this do it as a way of life. Grief on the newbies. I think the GM's know this as well. That is why they come down on them so hard. It is never just one mistake like some of these posters want you to believe. They prey upon the rookies as a way of life and are most upset that the GM's are making their playstyle off limits. Believe it or not, not all of us are evil high sec griefers.
However there is a difference between picking on noobs, and picking on 3 year old NPC corp jump freighter pilots.
Kyle Valentine wrote:There's a solution to deal with multiples accounts. A security standings lost (with a warning window) when you deal (by contracts, market, etc.) with a character with a negative status. If you deal with criminals, you're certainly one of them ! This would certainly make selling my pirate character's deadspace loot in Jita more interesting.
I think I might actually suicide gank a few things on my market alts just so I can grief everyone who buys anything from me.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Betrinna Cantis
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:32:00 -
[174] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Betrinna Cantis wrote:This is also a "rule" in the prison system. If you want to make things really interesting... Link API's to main charaters to their alts so that when the main is at war their alt is also.... That is actually the first thing they asked last time I was in prison. I was all standing there naked, covered in flea powder, with some guard shouting at me "LINK ME YOUR API NEWB". It was horrifying xxx HE,HE DID What?? I agree that many player run Corps use NPC characters to do their business while in a war dec. I myself am guilty. I just don't think you should be forced into combat if you do not wish to. If you get popped while mining some belt or stolen from in some site, You have a choice to retalliate against the offender...or run and hide. If you chose #1 90% of the time the offender is too afraid to engage you face to face. Why do you think it is called Suicide? Many people hide in NPC corps just for do it.(raises hand), I just don't think you want the weight of an entire Empire on you ass for the duration of you game experience. I do not see this happening anytime in the future. I know some bigger Alliances(you know who you are...) would endorse this either. I do agree the NPC corp hopping needs some love and there are SOME penalties in a war dec situation where if you leave a player owned corp. When I joined this game, I had the advantage of a friend giving me the "scoop" on things and I still joined. Since then, I (my main) has met some great people and have many friends in several locations and playstyles. I have learned much from all of them and have tought a thing or two also. I live in high sec and I mine and mission and do som industry and also pvp from time to time. That is what I enjoy. I have been in war dec's lost a POS and kicked the last ones ass. Call me a carebear or whatever. I have had many former corpmates offer me jobs in their Null alliances because I have a skill set most of the like. I am a loyal person to people who treat me good in my corporation and am one of the leaders in it. It has been around way longer than I have so I consider it a compliment that they trust me with decisions that matter. New people have to have that chance too. This game is not all about pew pew. There are some good people out there, you just have to find them. Getting rid of NPC corps would destroy the ability to find those people with like minds as yourselve Alts have been changed to protect the Innocent. You may have mistaken me for someone who cares..... |
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
367
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:34:00 -
[175] - Quote
Henry Haphorn wrote:My goodness, OP.
Stop acting like the carebears who have entitlement issues. If you can't wardec them, GANK THEM!!!!!!!
You can do that, you know. Just find the target, ships scan them, bring out a Catalyst, Thorax, or maybe a Tornado and shoot them. CCP will not ban you for that. In fact, they highly encouraged it. So what if you lose sec status? There are ways to get around that, you know.
I'm in a NPC corp and I had no problems shooting some mining ships. And the ironic part is that I'm a miner as well.
This.
The fact that NPC corps can't be war decced does not mean the pilots are safe. The logic fails on the first assumption. Of course you are going to stomp your feet for a while to make yourself feel sufficiently badass. |
loard doktor
tradersbear
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:41:00 -
[176] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts? I agree, to an extent. I think NPC corps should be wardecablle, but the fee higher AND toons less than 6 months old should be immune. It's just wrong that a game like this has un-deccable hiding spots. Either npc corps should be war-deccable OR players in npc corps should be restricted from doing anything that affects the game like making isk or shooting people.
Translation: new players that have no clue whats going on should be forced to either quit, never do a single thing, or play YOUR game YOUR way instead of theirs. WITHOUT EVER HAVING THE CHANCE TO LEARN WHAT IS WHAT. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
214
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:42:00 -
[177] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote: There is no "wrong way to play", but game mechanics and game design philosophies are something decided out of game.
Everything is allowed within the mechanics of the game, but when it comes to discussions on what those mechanics should be anything goes. It is important however to remember, as many people on these forums are liable to forget, that there is no disconnected "I'm not effecting anyone else" play style.
Everyone in Eve has an impact, whether they are impacting the market and actively causing mudflation or driving new players away via griefing. As such mechanics must, at times, be designed to limit the negative impact of certain play styles.
No doubt the game mechanics and philosophies have certain goals in mind, but those goals often assume things about player goals. When players goals and/or means of pursuing them don't fall in line with what you had in mind, what do you do? Do you accept it and admit that the nature of the game you created opened this unforeseen possibility? Or do you forcefully guide and correct their way of play, creating camps of those that are doing it right and those that aren't? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
214
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:45:00 -
[178] - Quote
Kyle Valentine wrote:There's a solution to deal with multiples accounts. A security standings lost (with a warning window) when you deal (by contracts, market, etc.) with a character with a negative status. If you deal with criminals, you're certainly one of them ! How does one prevent sale to someone with negative security status on the market or a public contract? |
loard doktor
tradersbear
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:45:00 -
[179] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:The fact that NPC corps can't be war decced does not mean the pilots are safe. The logic fails on the first assumption. Of course you are going to stomp your feet for a while to make yourself feel sufficiently badass.
SAFE?
what game are you playing.
NO ONE IS SAFE in eve. you can be killed anywhere.
not long ago, I was killed by a corp member, because I was too new to know that you cant enter a station while under attack, and fleet members can attack you without warning. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1264
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:48:00 -
[180] - Quote
loard doktor wrote:Ban Bindy wrote:The fact that NPC corps can't be war decced does not mean the pilots are safe. The logic fails on the first assumption. Of course you are going to stomp your feet for a while to make yourself feel sufficiently badass. SAFE? what game are you playing. NO ONE IS SAFE in eve. you can be killed anywhere. not long ago, I was killed by a corp member, because I was too new to know that you cant enter a station while under attack, and fleet members can attack you without warning. a) Corp members can attack you. Not fleet members.
b) Yes, you can enter a station while under attack.
c) Certain strategies currently available in game can render you very essentially impervious to reprisal.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
|
loard doktor
tradersbear
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:54:00 -
[181] - Quote
Freezehunter wrote:It would be awesome if NPC corps could be war decced.
That way, inflation in this game would not run rampant because some people just make ISK for the sake of making ISK, and they would be forced to lose their super expensive faction fitted loot pinatas, which would encourage them to buy new stuff and help the market doing so.
It would appear you have no understanding of what causes inflation. Large sums of money constantly being made (missions etc), and very little out go, causes increase supply of money. That makes it less valuable. Moving money around doesnt do a thing to stop inflation. |
loard doktor
tradersbear
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 00:57:00 -
[182] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote: a) Corp members can attack you. Not fleet members.
b) Yes, you can enter a station while under attack.
c) Certain strategies currently available in game can render you very essentially impervious to reprisal.
a) She had me join a fleet so she could do so. You get a warning when you join fleets, but I didnt fully realise what it meant
b) the station would allow it.
c) I know little about these. This acccount is only about a month old, but I know Ive been attacked while in a newbe corp before. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1265
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 01:02:00 -
[183] - Quote
loard doktor wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote: a) Corp members can attack you. Not fleet members.
b) Yes, you can enter a station while under attack.
c) Certain strategies currently available in game can render you very essentially impervious to reprisal.
a) She had me join a fleet so she could do so. You get a warning when you join fleets, but I didnt fully realise what it meant b) the station would allow it. c) I know little about these. This acccount is only about a month old, but I know Ive been attacked while in a newbe corp before. Ok, the warning when you join fleets is to let you know that you will be killed by concord for attacking fleet members.
The station won't let you dock if you have attacked them, there is a sixty second timer for aggression. If they attack you, you can still dock.
If you take a can, or are flying something valuable and weak enough to warrant suicide ganking, you can die in a newbie corp. Bar that, you're essentially invulnerable.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1265
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 01:06:00 -
[184] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote: There is no "wrong way to play", but game mechanics and game design philosophies are something decided out of game.
Everything is allowed within the mechanics of the game, but when it comes to discussions on what those mechanics should be anything goes. It is important however to remember, as many people on these forums are liable to forget, that there is no disconnected "I'm not effecting anyone else" play style.
Everyone in Eve has an impact, whether they are impacting the market and actively causing mudflation or driving new players away via griefing. As such mechanics must, at times, be designed to limit the negative impact of certain play styles.
No doubt the game mechanics and philosophies have certain goals in mind, but those goals often assume things about player goals. When players goals and/or means of pursuing them don't fall in line with what you had in mind, what do you do? Do you accept it and admit that the nature of the game you created opened this unforeseen possibility? Or do you forcefully guide and correct their way of play, creating camps of those that are doing it right and those that aren't? To be honest I would go along with it if I felt it wasn't damaging to the game.
However I personally feel that NPC alt logistics, high sec war dec evasion and high income high sec PvE does add an invulnerable aspect to the game that generally has a negative impact. I'll admit that this is just my opinion, but it is (usually) supported by relatively sound reasoning.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Xavier Bandar
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
20
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 01:06:00 -
[185] - Quote
loard doktor wrote: a) She had me join a fleet so she could do so. You get a warning when you join fleets, but I didnt fully realise what it meant
b) the station would allow it.
c) I know little about these. This acccount is only about a month old, but I know Ive been attacked while in a newbe corp before.
In prison, someone will burn a swastika on your asscheek with their cigarette for talking like this. Just saying, as that metaphor seems popular these days. |
loard doktor
tradersbear
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 01:06:00 -
[186] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Of course, and I primarily engage in those "other" activities. I spend most of my time in game running complexes and wormholes, and I am extremely paranoid and risk averse when I do so.
But at the same time I recognise the fact that the market, and indeed Eve in general, relies on a certain level of ship destruction. Risk free PvE results in the kind of mudflation we have seen in recent years, and it needs to be hit on the head before it becomes a genuine issue.
Not to mention the fact that, let's be honest, PvE in this game simply isn't challenging. While we may at times hate that we are being hunted whilst we are trying to make our billions, this is where the fun comes from. The challenge of making all that ISK, despite people trying to stop you.
WHEN I reach the point where Im bored making money WITHOUT people trying constantly kill me (they already try to keep me from making money without that), ill move to nul sec and do it there.
There is no need for ccp to make everyone play YOUR game YOUR way instead of playing their own game their own way. |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 01:08:00 -
[187] - Quote
Linna Excel wrote: Boobs and Bacon
They may take our undeccability, but they will never take our boobs and bacon!
|
loard doktor
tradersbear
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 01:11:00 -
[188] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Ok, the warning when you join fleets is to let you know that you will be killed by concord for attacking fleet members.
The station won't let you dock if you have attacked them, there is a sixty second timer for aggression. If they attack you, you can still dock.
If you take a can, or are flying something valuable and weak enough to warrant suicide ganking, you can die in a newbie corp. Bar that, you're essentially invulnerable.
Appearantly we dont get the same warning. She WASNT killed or even attack right outside a station and she attack multiple members of the fleet.
You arent listening. She attacked me and the stations REFUESED repeatedly to allow me to dock. NO ONE attacked her (I was carrying mining gear, not weapons so i couldnt attack ANYONE)
YES, if you aren not doing ANYTHING in the game, your completely safe. The minute you leave, someone will try to kill you, one way or another. |
Kyle Valentine
Aliastra Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 01:12:00 -
[189] - Quote
Simple option, and better control of the market : Do not sell to negative security status. And if an alt is used, the sec status penalty follow. Perhaps a new smuggler's heaven in low sec ?
But you know, all systems have flaws. |
John Anonymous
The Scope Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 01:14:00 -
[190] - Quote
Safe Havens? I'm not sure what the OP is talking about. Those guys in corp chat can be pretty rough some times. Once in a while they type something that really hurts my feelings. I get over it eventually, thanks to the booze and the hours of lvl 4 mission running. |
|
Whisperen
That's Not A Knife Flatline.
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 01:16:00 -
[191] - Quote
Sounds like a good idea to me the old voting system combined with the npc hauler spawns and even looking at the old npc buy order lists it seems to me that npc vs npc corp warfare of some type even within the same npc empire was getting brainstormed by ccp at some stage in eves design. Maybe they can get back to it after faction warfare's finished ;D. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2898
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 01:33:00 -
[192] - Quote
OK, I've seen a lot of fail reasons, generalized comparisons and shallow examples being stated by so called leet PvP's trying to incite a change that will force others to play this game a specific way.
Stop trying to dictate to others how this game should be played. Eve is a 'Sandbox' which means there is no right or wrong way to play this game. Eve is not scripted and it allows everyone to engage in various types of gameplay. Whether it's PvP, PvE or a combination of both, that content can be done in either NPC corp or player corp. It's all about freedom of choice. That is what makes Eve great. Each choice has consequences though.
If I want to stay in NPC corp that's my right and my choice. Sure there's no WarDec option but that's a 2 way street. I highly doubt a player Corp / Alliance want's to tango with Empire in high sec. Choosing to stay in NPC corp with the no WarDec option has it's consequences.
Corp mates can't engage others who aggro a member in high sec without incurring the wrath of Concord, even when fleeted. Can't own POS, must use public Science and Industry slots which usually have month long waiting line in high sec. Can't own and control a POCO or collect Tax. Must pay tax to NPC corp for missions completed and NPC bounty's. Must build up +8.00 standing with NPC corp to create Jump Clones.
There's other consequences as well, such as constantly being labeled an alt or spy. Can't take advantage of Infrastructure upgrades in null sec unless it's an alt character of an Alliance member. The list goes on and on but the way I see it, if that NPC Freighter going in and out of Jita bothers you, then do some Recon and see where it's going and jump on it in low sec. Either that or just do the 'quote' player driven content 'unquote' and suicide gank it.
Make your choice, accept the consequences for your actions and stop trying to dictate to others how this game should be played. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1266
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 01:35:00 -
[193] - Quote
loard doktor wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote:Ok, the warning when you join fleets is to let you know that you will be killed by concord for attacking fleet members.
The station won't let you dock if you have attacked them, there is a sixty second timer for aggression. If they attack you, you can still dock.
If you take a can, or are flying something valuable and weak enough to warrant suicide ganking, you can die in a newbie corp. Bar that, you're essentially invulnerable. Appearantly we dont get the same warning. She WASNT killed or even attack right outside a station and she attack multiple members of the fleet. You arent listening. She attacked me and the stations REFUESED repeatedly to allow me to dock. NO ONE attacked her (I was carrying mining gear, not weapons so i couldnt attack ANYONE) YES, if you aren not doing ANYTHING in the game, your completely safe. The minute you leave, someone will try to kill you, one way or another. If she's in your corp, and you're in a player corp, she can attack you. If she's not in your corp she cannot attack you or other fleet members purely because she is in fleet with you. Seriously, go read the warning.
As for docking, you cannot dock for one minute after attacking something. Other than that the only time you'd be prevented from docking is if you were outside of the docking radius of the station. Just because someone is attacking you does not mean you cannot dock.
Although that would be an amusing mechanic.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1266
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 01:41:00 -
[194] - Quote
loard doktor wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote:Of course, and I primarily engage in those "other" activities. I spend most of my time in game running complexes and wormholes, and I am extremely paranoid and risk averse when I do so.
But at the same time I recognise the fact that the market, and indeed Eve in general, relies on a certain level of ship destruction. Risk free PvE results in the kind of mudflation we have seen in recent years, and it needs to be hit on the head before it becomes a genuine issue.
Not to mention the fact that, let's be honest, PvE in this game simply isn't challenging. While we may at times hate that we are being hunted whilst we are trying to make our billions, this is where the fun comes from. The challenge of making all that ISK, despite people trying to stop you. WHEN I reach the point where Im bored making money WITHOUT people trying constantly kill me (they already try to keep me from making money without that), ill move to nul sec and do it there. There is no need for ccp to make everyone play YOUR game YOUR way instead of playing their own game their own way. It isn't about playing "my game, my way", its about people using NPC corp alts for invulnerable high sec logistics.
And corp hopping/war dec evasion for invulnerable high sec botting/ISK generation etc.
Contrary to popular belief high sec is not a separate game, the actions of players in high sec impacts those of us outside. And personally I'd rather not see Eve go the same way as ultima online.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1268
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 01:45:00 -
[195] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Eve is a 'Sandbox' which means there is no right or wrong way to play this game. We've already heard the "'sandbox' means we have to preserve bad mechanics that are endlessly abused to the detriment of the game" argument already, thanks. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
243
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 01:52:00 -
[196] - Quote
Donte wrote:So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's?
You can gank them
Quote:Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it.
You can gank them
Quote:I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps.
You can gank them
Quote:Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts?
Null sec is by far safer than high sec, why don't you come pvp in there? -you have targets choice and don't even have to pay wardec fees to concord. Come along space buddy, come clean all those "safe heavens" from north to south and west to est. I don't know how Eve did before you had that brilliant idea...
Quote:NPC corps =/= Noob corps. they're different entities. NPC corps can only be entered after a player leaves a player corporation.
Gank them.
One question for you as high sec publord: why don't you move to null and do serious stuff over there instead of whining? brb |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1270
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 02:01:00 -
[197] - Quote
"Yeah CVA guy why don't you move to nullsec" said the NPC corp poster
lol
|
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
243
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 02:04:00 -
[198] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:"Yeah CVA guy why don't you move to nullsec" said the NPC corp poster
lol
Another idiot with the old rabble "npc" alt stupid argument to prove he's a better pixels fan on the internet. Bravo.
*gives cookie* brb |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1266
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 02:11:00 -
[199] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:"Yeah CVA guy why don't you move to nullsec" said the NPC corp poster
lol
Another idiot with the old rabble "npc" alt stupid argument to prove he's a better pixels fan on the internet. Bravo. *gives cookie* In all fairness you are a high sec player, advocating ganking as a solution for situations where ganking is not realistically possible, and also telling a null sec pilot he is a high sec publord that should go play in null sec.
All in all it wasn't a particularly impressive rant on your part.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
245
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 02:18:00 -
[200] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:In all fairness you are a high sec player
At all, however I do have an high sec for obvious stuff like everyone, or almost, living in null has. I see no problem here, why should there be one and when am I a null sec follower or an high sec pubbie?
Quote:...advocating ganking as a solution for situations where ganking is not realistically possible...
It is, just watch out Eve-Kill and point all the NPC corp player kills/deaths, they provide far more pvp content than most high sec self proclaimed "pirates" and "pvp" tough dudes ^^
Quote:...and also telling a null sec pilot he is a high sec publord that should go play in null sec.
All in all it wasn't a particularly impressive rant on your part.
Good stuff with this forum is that some crap is so hilarious there's no other answer than play the same game: the ignorant game If some guy can't do better for his pvp epeen than complain and whine on forums when pvp is everywhere...simple answer: gank and stop crying or move to better places.
Eve is harsh brb |
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1270
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 02:22:00 -
[201] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote:In all fairness you are a high sec player At all, however I do have an high sec for obvious stuff like everyone, or almost, living in null has. I see no problem here, why should there be one and when am I a null sec follower or an high sec pubbie? ] You spent like a page yelling at a guy in CVA to 'move to nullsec', let's just say I'm going to give your claims of 0.0 experience a bit of doubt. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1267
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 02:33:00 -
[202] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote:In all fairness you are a high sec player At all, however I do have an high sec for obvious stuff like everyone, or almost, living in null has. I see no problem here, why should there be one and when am I a null sec follower or an high sec pubbie? I will be honest with you, the fact that you are posting on an NPC corp alt and failed to recognize a CVA member as a null sec resident makes me doubtful as to your claims of being a null sec alt.
Not to mention your use of the word "there", rather than "here", when describing null sec.
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Quote:...advocating ganking as a solution for situations where ganking is not realistically possible... It is, just watch out Eve-Kill and point all the NPC corp player kills/deaths, they provide far more pvp content than most high sec self proclaimed "pirates" and "pvp" tough dudes ^^ I beg to differ.
But even were your claims true, encouraging suicide ganking for the most part just results in players targeting newbies who do not know to tank their haulers. Experienced players with NPC hauler alts or mission running alts are for all intents and purposes ungankable.
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Good stuff with this forum is that some crap is so hilarious there's no other answer than play the same game: the ignorant game If some guy can't do better for his pvp epeen than complain and whine on forums when pvp is everywhere...simple answer: gank and stop crying or move to better places. Eve is harsh The problem is that giant high sec safe zones, that are only getting safer as time goes by, affect us all. High sec is not some closed system that operates without repercussions, high sec mechanics have just as great an impact on those outside of high sec as they do on those inside high sec.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
490
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 02:35:00 -
[203] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:New EVE players are the ones that suffer now, because they are the ones who tend to hop in swiftly stomped newbie player-owned corps while the PVE alts of veterans grind away in NPC corp safety. New players are punished for wanting to socialize in an MMO to the benefit of vets under the current system. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
You know there's something fundamentally wrong when the only way people can think of to promote the "best" part of the game is to make everything else suck more. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1268
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 02:41:00 -
[204] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:New EVE players are the ones that suffer now, because they are the ones who tend to hop in swiftly stomped newbie player-owned corps while the PVE alts of veterans grind away in NPC corp safety. New players are punished for wanting to socialize in an MMO to the benefit of vets under the current system. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. An interesting argument, given how common it is for older, richer players to argue that NPC corps are necessary for the protection of new players.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Tesal
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 02:47:00 -
[205] - Quote
Not another "lets kill the newbs" thread. Please stop. Its been done a dozen times. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
245
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 02:49:00 -
[206] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:I will be honest with you, the fact that you are posting on an NPC corp alt and failed to recognize a CVA member as a null sec resident makes me doubtful as to your claims of being a null sec alt.
Who is CVA first? - He's posting for all CVA or his personal feelings?-then let me say it again, he can gank when things don't please him, no need to rabble old stuff about high sec and NPC and yadayada Not encouraging gank noobs whatsoever, never encouraged this and never will. It's up to him to figure out when he can gank or not and assume consequences of whatever he does, not me not you or someone else.
And yes, this is an NPC alt, if someone has a problem with that he can always block it my feelings will not get internet hurt for that
brb |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
214
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 02:50:00 -
[207] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:New EVE players are the ones that suffer now, because they are the ones who tend to hop in swiftly stomped newbie player-owned corps while the PVE alts of veterans grind away in NPC corp safety. New players are punished for wanting to socialize in an MMO to the benefit of vets under the current system. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. An interesting argument, given how common it is for older, richer players to argue that NPC corps are necessary for the protection of new players. Those players should have long ago acquired the knowledge means to fight back or rationalized not doing so. New players on the other hand... |
Crove
Elysium Enterprises
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 02:55:00 -
[208] - Quote
This argument has nothing to do with new players, since it was explained on page one that we're talking NPC corps, not noob corps.
So, please explain to me what the benefit is of having a wardec-avoidance / spy haven mechanic. Right now that's all NPC corps are. They are a place to put alts that can't be retaliated against (in any practical manner) and a place for losing corps to put members to avoid a war. Both of those negate perfectly legitimate and balanced game mechanics and replace them with arbitrary and unfair mechanics.
How is that good? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
214
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 02:58:00 -
[209] - Quote
Crove wrote:This argument has nothing to do with new players, since it was explained on page one that we're talking NPC corps, not noob corps.
So, please explain to me what the benefit is of having a wardec-avoidance / spy haven mechanic. Right now that's all NPC corps are. They are a place to put alts that can't be retaliated against (in any practical manner) and a place for losing corps to put members to avoid a war. Both of those negate perfectly legitimate and balanced game mechanics and replace them with arbitrary and unfair mechanics.
How is that good? Dunno, wardecs are pretty arbitrary for one of the parties, and seeing as those are the only actual benefit of being there, well...
Also, what do you mean by "spy haven?"
Edit: What about those who never left the noob corp? |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
490
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 03:26:00 -
[210] - Quote
A: The idea is pants on head stupid. B: Go poke other sov holders again...
You know there's something fundamentally wrong when the only way people can think of to promote the "best" part of the game is to make everything else suck more. |
|
Romar Agent
Ishukone Regional Headquarters
60
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 05:35:00 -
[211] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:sandbox = we must have badly abused mechanics that make pvp optional thanks for that contribution Sandbox = PVP is optional Sandbox = PVE is optional Sandbox = anything is optional
Though PVP is only optional for those who decide to PVP,, as there is non-consentual PVP in this game.
That EVE has lots of bad mechanics and a plethora of bad physics is not new, but is a different topic. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2903
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 05:45:00 -
[212] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Eve is a 'Sandbox' which means there is no right or wrong way to play this game. We've already heard the "'sandbox' means we have to preserve bad mechanics that are endlessly abused through alts to the detriment of the game" argument already, thanks. I'll state it again - Sandbox means there is no right or wrong way to play. What you consider as a detriment to the game others view as being beneficial.
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:NPC corps have to go as they punish newbies, disincentivise working collectively (in an MMO no less), flood highsec with commodities due to a lack of ability of highsec players to effectively compete over resources, make nullsec logistics effectively invulnerable and in the process close the door to 0.0 for the vast majority of industrialists/miners. They don't protect newbies and the few benefits they provide could be equally delivered through the existence of a shared chat channel so unaffiliated players can talk. Everything in that statement is incorrect. Large null sec Alliances getting together and making each other blue while endorsing NBSI policy and constantly doing blob ganks on Industrialists/Miners is what closed the door to 0.0 space.
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Your listing of specific things NPC corp members can't do is disingenuous - EVE is a game that rewards specialization, as CCP is quick to point out. So long as your NPC corp character is specializing something that synergizes with 100% CONCORD protection (like say mining, or freighter hauling) - there is no tradeoff, just benefit. disingenuous - The Free Dictionary www.thefreedictionary.com/disingenuous adj. 1. Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating: "an ambitious, disingenuous, philistine, and hypocritical operator,
Obviously the same word applies to your reasons for wanting to disband NPC corps.
Mining or Freighter Hauling is not 100% Concord protected in high security. The current trend and amount of suicide ganks in high security proves that.
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:There's really no justification for NPC corps, decable or not. They need to be removed altogether and just make characters work in de facto one-man corps. that are decable, where wardec corps can decide which players are rich and vulnerable enough to be worth taking a go at, and others are truly too casual and new to be worth the effort. There is justification for NPC corps and for players like me staying in them but I'm not going to list my reasons due to you being adamant about wanting NPC corps removed from the game.
Bottom line, you're promoting a change that will force everyone to engage in one aspect of this game, basically removing the players right to choose. There's other SyFy space games available that are strictly PvP with only player corps and no NPC corps. DarkSpace is like that.
|
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1269
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 05:45:00 -
[213] - Quote
Romar Agent wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:sandbox = we must have badly abused mechanics that make pvp optional thanks for that contribution Sandbox = PVP is optional Sandbox = PVE is optional Sandbox = anything is optional Though PVP is only optional for those who decide to PVP,, as there is non-consentual PVP in this game. That EVE has lots of bad mechanics and a plethora of bad physics is not new, but is a different topic. And PvE is only optional for those that don't mind being space poor.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1527
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 05:55:00 -
[214] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness.
Fairness? LOL
CCP Soundwave has already stated that EVE isn't supposed to be fair. You are either in a large nullsec corp or you quit the game at this point. Day 0 advice for new players: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=77176 |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1269
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 06:00:00 -
[215] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness. Fairness? LOL CCP Soundwave has already stated that EVE isn't supposed to be fair. You are either in a large nullsec corp or you quit the game at this point. Too right! We should introduce some kind of mechanic that would hurt large null sec corps!
I know! Lets remove their ability to use NPC hauler alts! Wow full circle!
I'm not entirely sure why I tried writing an entire post with exclamation marks, but all said and done I'm happy with the results.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
001100110011
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 06:06:00 -
[216] - Quote
Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe".
So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's?
Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it.
In response to this, i have written the following:
I donGÇÖt like it, when you turn my voice about I donGÇÖt like it, when you vote one nation out My language has been murdered, my language has been murdered My shopping trolley murdered, my groceries just gone!
I donGÇÖt like it, when you turn my voice about I donGÇÖt like it, when you vote one nation out My language has been murdered, my language has been murdered My shopping trolley murdered, my groceries just gone!
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 racist, rubbish, racist hate. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 racist, rubbish, racist
feel the heat
I donGÇÖt like it, when ummGǪ railway lines are white I donGÇÖt like it when ummGǪ day becomes night
My language has been murdered, my language has been murdered My shopping trolley murdered, my groceries just gone!
I donGÇÖt like it, no, no, no I donGÇÖt never did, I donGÇÖt like it, I donGÇÖt like anything! I donGÇÖt like it, no, no, no I donGÇÖt know where near I donGÇÖt like it, I donGÇÖt like anything!
Please explain, why canGÇÖt my blood be coloured white I should talk to some medical doctors, coloured blood is just not right
I donGÇÖt like anything, I cant do anything about it
But I like dancing, and I like the disco Coz I left my heart, in san fransisco, yeah!
Feel the heat on the street, dance to the beat out of your seat Feel the heat on the street, dance to the beat out of your seat
Get down, get down, down, down I donGÇÖt like anything, except I like neil diamond, yeah!
Disco dance, disco dance Lets go nation, not a chance Disco dance, disco dance Out of my tree, out of my branch
I donGÇÖt like it, no, no, no I donGÇÖt never did, I donGÇÖt like it, I donGÇÖt like anything! I donGÇÖt like it, no, no, no I donGÇÖt, I donGÇÖt care I donGÇÖt like it, I donGÇÖt like anything!
I donGÇÖt like a puppet without strings Theres a muppet in the wings And its saying racist things, I wont cop that, no way
I, I, I, I donGÇÖt like anything
Video killed the racist star, Howard won the **** you are, But he's on the scrap-heap too, A bit of a downer.
I donGÇÖt like anything, I cant do anything about it
But I like dancing, and I like the disco Coz I left my heart, in san fransisco, yeah!
Feel the heat on the street, dance to the beat out of your seat Feel the heat on the street, dance to the beat out of your seat
I donGÇÖt like it, no, no, no I donGÇÖt never did, I donGÇÖt like it, I donGÇÖt like anything! I donGÇÖt like it, no, no, no I donGÇÖt, I donGÇÖt care I donGÇÖt like it, I donGÇÖt like anything!
No the whole thing is wrong, and it stinks and I donGÇÖt like it |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1271
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 06:36:00 -
[217] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:NPC corps have to go as they punish newbies, disincentivise working collectively (in an MMO no less), flood highsec with commodities due to a lack of ability of highsec players to effectively compete over resources, make nullsec logistics effectively invulnerable and in the process close the door to 0.0 for the vast majority of industrialists/miners. They don't protect newbies and the few benefits they provide could be equally delivered through the existence of a shared chat channel so unaffiliated players can talk. Everything in that statement is incorrect. Large null sec Alliances getting together and making each other blue while endorsing NBSI policy and constantly doing blob ganks on Industrialists/Miners is what closed the door to 0.0 space. Indeed. There's no reason for large alliances to bring in miners and industrialists when they can just use NPC corp freighter alts to move supplies from trade hubs without any inconvenience. Recruiting miners and small-scale industrialists (aka a lot of newbies) is just a needless liability - on the Fanfest 2012 it turned out that the more developed a 0.0 alliance was, the less and less null manufacturing they actually did. The space of Stainwagon renters turned out to be more industrially active then the entire CFC. So miners and industrialists are stuck in highsec where they are forced to compete economically against people who do not have to factor in the costs of wardecs - aka PVE alts in NPC corps. With that in context, I fail to see how the existence of NPC corps truly benefits the small-scale industrialist/miner.
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Bottom line, you're promoting a change that will force everyone to engage in one aspect of this game, basically removing the players right to choose. There's other SyFy space games available that are strictly PvP with only player corps and no NPC corps. DarkSpace is like that. I'm promoting a change that will merely treat all players equally, to the benefit of everyone. This "removing the players right to choose" you mention, as far as your 'right' to opt for PVP or not in EVE - as you pointed out yourself one sentence ago,
DeMichael Crimson wrote:[Mining or Freighter Hauling is not 100% Concord protected in high security. The current trend and amount of suicide ganks in high security proves that.
There's not much "choice" involved in EVE as far as PVP goes already. The problem is that suicide ganking is too easily avoided, or at least made cost-ineffective. |
Plaude Pollard
Crimson Cartel
42
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 06:49:00 -
[218] - Quote
With the new War Declaration prices, it's not worth it to wardec an NPC corp. Remember. They have NPC's counting towards their members as well as players, meaning you would pay billions just to wardec a corp with maybe 200 players online at any time. I don't know the exact numbers, but last I checked, Aliastra had enough members to count them in millions. Just imagine how much it would cost to wardec that many targets, even though most are NPC's. See why NPC-corps are immune to wardens? Even if they weren't, nobody (except goons) would have the money to wardec them. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1066
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 06:58:00 -
[219] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Indeed. There's no reason for large alliances to bring in miners and industrialists when they can just use NPC corp freighter alts to move supplies from trade hubs without any inconvenience. Recruiting miners and small-scale industrialists (aka a lot of newbies) is just a needless liability - on the Fanfest 2012 it turned out that the more developed a 0.0 alliance was, the less and less null manufacturing they actually did. The space of Stainwagon renters turned out to be more industrially active then the entire CFC. So miners and industrialists are stuck in highsec where they are forced to compete economically against people who do not have to factor in the costs of wardecs - aka PVE alts in NPC corps. With that in context, I fail to see how the existence of NPC corps truly benefits the small-scale industrialist/miner. Pretty much, other than the poor fellows who take care of the tech moon POSses and the supercapital producers, I'm not sure what else really happens.
Some miners shipping high-end minerals to highsec. You also have to refine guns back into trit to make the supercaps....
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Klymer
Hedion University Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 08:32:00 -
[220] - Quote
...but being a forum alt in an npc corp is part of the meta game isn't it?
|
|
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
255
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 08:33:00 -
[221] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:There's no reason for large alliances to bring in miners and industrialists when they can just use NPC corp freighter alts to move supplies from trade hubs without any inconvenience.
Every one benefits from this including your own corp/alliance and not only for hauling, neutral rep alts, neutral falcon, neutral boost, neutral scout. When you undock you accept that your ship might be blown by gank dudes, this is also inconvenient. Of course you need more than a simple blaster catalyst, risk/reward stuff.
Quote: Recruiting miners and small-scale industrialists (aka a lot of newbies) is just a needless liability - on the Fanfest 2012 it turned out that the more developed a 0.0 alliance was, the less and less null manufacturing they actually did. The space of Stainwagon renters turned out to be more industrially active then the entire CFC. So miners and industrialists are stuck in highsec where they are forced to compete economically against people who do not have to factor in the costs of wardecs - aka PVE alts in NPC corps. With that in context, I fail to see how the existence of NPC corps truly benefits the small-scale industrialist/miner.
Again, every single alliance has trading/hauling/industrial/mining alts in high sec and the problem doesn't come because end ores and better industry slots are there where player driven content is (null sov, player build stations etc) How much effort CCP puts in to give null/low a huge buff to industry and nerf high sec industry can you prove most of those industry slots will not be taken by null/low/wh industrial alts because those regions suddenly got interesting?
Then all your problems of neutral alts and industrials yadyada will be no more? -I don't think so, you'll find new ones.
Quote:I'm promoting a change that will merely treat all players equally, to the benefit of everyone.
It isn't and will never be. You want to force everyone to share your vision of Eve where they shouldn't have the choice of having some char or alt in NPC corps...welp, it's a sandbox and I'm pretty sure some would like concord everywhere including WHs.
Quote:There's not much "choice" involved in EVE as far as PVP goes already. The problem is that suicide ganking is too easily avoided, or at least made cost-ineffective.
So you have the tools but you don't want to use them because it's cost effective?-I suppose you'd like to cyno your Titan blap doomsday on that freighter get concord claps and giggles maybe some /bows from space barbies...
You have the tools (gank), so does the other player(NPC corp), one of you will outsmart the other. That simple. brb |
Kimmi Chan
Illuminatus Reforged The Revenant Order
117
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 10:01:00 -
[222] - Quote
The way things are now - Characters in NPC Corporations can be killed in high sec but there is a CONCORD response. The way the OP wants things to be - Characters in NPC Corporation can be killed in high sec with no CONCORD response.
So the difference between the way things are and the the way the OP would like to see it is the CONCORD response?
How does one person or group demanding changes in game mechanics so they can kill people in a safer environment differ from another group of people demanding changes to be able to mine in a safer environment?
It doesn't and in both cases amounts to be both people being unable to adapt leaving them with two choices: 1) Quit playing (and if you're upset about it enough, threaten CCP with your unsub) because Eve is hard or 2) Come on the GD forums and whine some more about stuff you want changed.
Stop trying to change the mechanics that have been in place for as long as I can remember and find ways to adapt. Eve is hard. -á"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
35
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 15:53:00 -
[223] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness. Fairness? LOL CCP Soundwave has already stated that EVE isn't supposed to be fair. You are either in a large nullsec corp or you quit the game at this point. Too right! We should introduce some kind of mechanic that would hurt large null sec corps! I know! Lets remove their ability to use NPC hauler alts! Wow full circle! I'm not entirely sure why I tried writing an entire post with exclamation marks, but all said and done I'm happy with the results.
So simply ban alts. There a simple solution, NPC corps are allowed for new and casual players and it still eliminates the actual problem.
Of course this would MASSIVELY cut into CCP's profit margin.... just like the original stupid suggestion.
People really need to understand that CCP is trying to attract the largest number of players, and to do that they have to balance some rather extreme expectations and demands. Which in itself shows off CCP's masterful balancing act that they do on a daily basis. Most other MMO's give you different servers to enjoy while CCP made it a massive sandbox. So let us all enjoy Eve the way Eve is and not make it one ridicules extreme.
!!!PURE SARCASM!!! But if we have to make it one extreme, let it be mass nudity in all its internet deprivation to give new players and kids a creepy look into the filth that is on the internet. !!!END OF PURE SARCASM!!! |
Ohanka
Aggressive Narcissists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
115
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 15:54:00 -
[224] - Quote
Waah Waaah Waaah.
I don't want to be concorded for griefing. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1272
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 15:58:00 -
[225] - Quote
FireT wrote: So simply ban alts. There a simple solution
It is much simpler and less limiting to players to just ban NPC corps. BTW: NPC corps don't protect new players, they merely disincentivize players of all ages from working together in a player-run corp. |
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 16:04:00 -
[226] - Quote
FireT wrote:
So simply ban alts. There a simple solution, NPC corps are allowed for new and casual players and it still eliminates the actual problem.
Wouldn't work, people would use additional accounts instead of alts, which amount to much the same thing. There's not really any viable way to tell when several accounts belong to the same person.
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1281
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 16:16:00 -
[227] - Quote
FireT wrote:So simply ban alts. There a simple solution, NPC corps are allowed for new and casual players and it still eliminates the actual problem.
Of course this would MASSIVELY cut into CCP's profit margin.... just like the original stupid suggestion.
People really need to understand that CCP is trying to attract the largest number of players, and to do that they have to balance some rather extreme expectations and demands. Which in itself shows off CCP's masterful balancing act that they do on a daily basis. Most other MMO's give you different servers to enjoy while CCP made it a massive sandbox. So let us all enjoy Eve the way Eve is and not make it one ridicules extreme. The problem is that NPC corps, especially in the uses that me, Nicolo and others have been highlighting, are not used by "new" or "casual" players.
When you see a three year old NPC corp pilot in a JF, carrying *just* under the amount that would render it profitable to suicide gank, chances are that this is not a casual or new player. Instead it is an alt of an older, more experienced player who is hiding behind concord in order to evade any interference with their particular play style.
I should know, I abuse the crap out of the NPC system myself all the time. Look at some of the characters in this corp and see how often we have corp hopped in the past to avoid decs.
The fact is that if it is even remotely feasible to remove these arbitrary loop holes and protections for older players, whilst retaining protection for genuine new players, then it should be done. The question isn't whether or not it should be done, but whether or not it can be done. And if so, how?
Personally I'd introduce something crazy like suspect flags for NPC corp players over a certain age. Six months old and still in an NPC corp? Good luck making the Jita run with a JF full of technetium. Of course in order for this to have any real effect corp hopping and war dec evasion would also need to be looked at, but that's another issue entirely.
(Personally I liked the idea CCP had of war decs following people around, but unfortunately that is far too open to abuse.)
FireT wrote:!!!PURE SARCASM!!! But if we have to make it one extreme, let it be mass nudity in all its internet deprivation to give new players and kids a creepy look into the filth that is on the internet. !!!END OF PURE SARCASM!!! One of my alts was recently banned for attempting to introduce this particular element of internet culture to Jita local.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Ayame Tao
56
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 16:17:00 -
[228] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:As usual you people get it wrong.
The correct approach is to teach people to WANT to PvP, not to make game mechanics grab them by the nutsacks and hold them steady while you melt them in RR + Falcon + T3 PvP ships.
This...
Stop trying to twist the game to your continued agenda of ganking clueless soft targets in hi-sec.
NPC corps got you down? You know Neutral RR, non-wardec and all those problems go away outside of hi-sec right?
Just because lo-sec and null-sec are empty of people for you to shoot at (especially ones that don't shoot back) or are the primary living space of the enourmous blue-friends-circle-jerk of love.
Sorry... does the elite PvP community need a wahmbulance? Has ti truly come to the last option left for shooting something to invade hi-sec and pick targets so soft you can kill them solo ina destroyer?
Fearsome.
Besides, until the war-dec system is comletely overhauled and fixed to stop shedding, shielding, dogpiling and all the other crap, it's pretty much useless.
NPC corps pretty much provide the only protection for casual PvE players, who - whether you like it or not - just want to run some missions or do mining and largely pays the frikkin bills around here. You may hate them, you may wish to kill them (and you can) your combat prowess may just barely extend to fighting a wet webbed Retreiver (you scary pirate... ooooh) but that's not the game's problem.
Know thyself...
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Noriko Satomi
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
31
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 16:43:00 -
[229] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Alexa Coates wrote:Jesus christ, stop trying to MAKE people fight you. Go shoot some other miners you freaks. This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fairness. Newbies should be protected to a point yes, but players who can affect the game in any way AFTER a newbie period (as in my other post, I suggest 6 months) should be liable to experience the negative aspects of the game in full. One of those negative aspects is being involved in a war. [[spelling corrected]] That's ridiculous. It's completely fair. You can go back to an NPC corp any time you want. |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 17:00:00 -
[230] - Quote
Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts? NPC corps =/= Noob corps. they're different entities. NPC corps can only be entered after a player leaves a player corporation.
Children, please think your suggestions through before making them:
NPC corps of this type exist for three reasons:
a) to hold toons between corps (disband, thrown out etc)
b) people who are parking their toon because they are not going to use it and the last corp have rules on activity
c) trading/mining/hauling/mining alts
Everyone else hides in their own small toonfarm vanity corp, which if wardec, would be easily parked and has zero tax. Or, go and hide in eve uni or some other large low tax/zero tax corp/alliance with decent defensive capabilities or good CTA station camping rules.
So your "solution" is in search of a problem.
It also has a bigger problem. Most NPC corp members are alts of experienced players with corps that can surely kick your ass. If this were to be enabled, in less than a month no one would wardec NPC corps for fear of retribution. I mean, imaging you wardec, shoot down a freighter full of moon goo. And it belongs, say, to the Goons.
Your corp is ******.
So yeah, sounds like a good idea, until it doesn't.
Please google "law of unintended consequences"... Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1281
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 17:05:00 -
[231] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:Children, please think your suggestions through before making them:
NPC corps of this type exist for three reasons:
a) to hold toons between corps (disband, thrown out etc)
b) people who are parking their toon because they are not going to use it and the last corp have rules on activity
c) trading/mining/hauling/mining alts
Everyone else hides in their own small toonfarm vanity corp, which if wardec, would be easily parked and has zero tax. Or, go and hide in eve uni or some other large low tax/zero tax corp/alliance with decent defensive capabilities or good CTA station camping rules.
So your "solution" is in search of a problem.
It also has a bigger problem. Most NPC corp members are alts of experienced players with corps that can surely kick your ass. If this were to be enabled, in less than a month no one would wardec NPC corps for fear of retribution. I mean, imaging you wardec, shoot down a freighter full of moon goo. And it belongs, say, to the Goons.
Your corp is ******.
So yeah, sounds like a good idea, until it doesn't.
Please google "law of unintended consequences"... If you bothered to read the thread, instead of skipping to the last page for defensive rage posting, you'd realise that the OP's views are not those shared by the majority of players.
We recognise the need for genuine newbie protection, and as Nicolo has pointed out on multiple occasions the current system raises their profile as targets whilst allowing us older, more experienced players some very questionable mechanics to hide behind.
We also recognise that war dec mechanics are in need of a serious revamp. They have been a complete joke for as long as I can remember.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 17:08:00 -
[232] - Quote
Ayame Tao wrote: Besides, until the war-dec system is comletely overhauled and fixed to stop shedding, shielding, dogpiling and all the other crap, it's pretty much useless.
Preeeetyyyyy muuuuuch...
It started about the dogpile, but I put something on those lines here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=122238
The problem I see in all of these discussions is that all kinds of whiners dominate it.
Nullsecers whining about carebears, carebears whining about gankers, gankers whining about concord...
Nah bros and bras, the game is ok and playable. The wardec system, however, is broken and has always been broken.
Rather than being a way for merc to develop a business and for consensual pew pew in hisec, its barely workable for anyone - super easy to exploit (for both sides) ridiculously cheap to use (hence misuse) and completely unconnected to other mechanics in the game.
If you took wardecs out completely and eliminated sec status in low sec, there would be more pew pew in the game than with the broken system in place... Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 17:20:00 -
[233] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:If you bothered to read the thread, instead of skipping to the last page for defensive rage posting, you'd realise that the OP's views are not those shared by the majority of players.We recognise the need for genuine newbie protection, and as Nicolo has pointed out on multiple occasions the current system raises their profile as targets whilst allowing us older, more experienced players some very questionable mechanics to hide behind. We also recognise that war dec mechanics are in need of a serious revamp. They have been a complete joke for as long as I can remember.
I dare you to find me a single experienced player that hides his or her main in an NPC corp. It simply doesn't happen.
Any experience carebear is either hiding in a vanity corp or in a well established freelancer/educational corp. That is just how it rolls.
The issue that has some mad, as highlighted by your linked posting (Which I had already read) is the Jumpfreighters with just under the gankable amount.
That is not hiding. That is precisely my purpose #3. Those are alts. You want to hit the player, hit their main.
Let me give an example of my point, because apparently you lack reading comprehension:
1) Wardec on NPC corps is opened
2) You go and wardec it
3) You do a zero consequence kill of the "hiding" Jump Freighter you wanted to gank but couldnt because it was not profirable to do so without a wardec.
4) That is an alt
5) The main of that alt is in some very powerful, very elite, PVP corp.
6) They wardec your puny hisec "merc" corp
7) You ragequit eve because you undock, you die - and YOU CANNOT PLAY ALTS BECAUSE THERE IS NO NPC CORP TO PARK THEM AT
As I said, google "law of unintended consequences", and be done, sir.
Also, when did you poll all of the users of EVE to claim that the majority support a given view. Not even the CSM can claim to represent the majority of players, judging by the vote totals (unless, of course, CCP lies on the user base numbers). So yeah, 0/10 on getting your undies all in a bunch... Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1273
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 17:26:00 -
[234] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote: Let me give an example of my point, because apparently you lack reading comprehension:
1) Wardec on NPC corps is opened
Claims others lack reading comprehension, writes a whole page under the premise that Simi was talking about making NPC corps deccable instead of just removing them altogether. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1282
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 17:34:00 -
[235] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:I dare you to find me a single experienced player that hides his or her main in an NPC corp. It simply doesn't happen.
Any experience carebear is either hiding in a vanity corp or in a well established freelancer/educational corp. That is just how it rolls. I've dropped my main down into an NPC corp plenty of times for hauling stuff through high sec, it is a very common practice. And as I said the war dec system also needs fixing.
I also know a lot of null sec players who use alts to mine in high sec, and operate in small corps that will drop into NPC corps if war is declared.
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:The issue that has some mad, as highlighted by your linked posting (Which I had already read) is the Jumpfreighters with just under the gankable amount.
That is not hiding. That is precisely my purpose #3. Those are alts. You want to hit the player, hit their main.
Let me give an example of my point, because apparently you lack reading comprehension:
1) Wardec on NPC corps is opened
2) You go and wardec it
3) You do a zero consequence kill of the "hiding" Jump Freighter you wanted to gank but couldnt because it was not profirable to do so without a wardec.
4) That is an alt
5) The main of that alt is in some very powerful, very elite, PVP corp.
6) They wardec your puny hisec "merc" corp
7) You ragequit eve because you undock, you die - and YOU CANNOT PLAY ALTS BECAUSE THERE IS NO NPC CORP TO PARK THEM AT
As I said, google "law of unintended consequences", and be done, sir. The law of unintended consequences doesn't really seem to have any relevance. The only consequences of fixing war dec evasion and NPC corp hauling/mining would be that players like myself would no longer be truly safe in high sec.
As for your example, that simply doesn't make sense. For one thing, I highlighted in my own post that most of us don't want to be able to war dec NPC corps, for another I am not in a puny high sec "merc" corp. And even if I were, why should I be allowed to "play alts" in order to escape the repercussions of my actions?
For point number 3, how is it a zero consequence kill? Why does it even matter if it is a "zero consequence" kill? What even is a zero consequence kill?! If you declare war, scout out a target and then catch them in a jump freighter then congratulations.
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:Also, when did you poll all of the users of EVE to claim that the majority support a given view. Not even the CSM can claim to represent the majority of players, judging by the vote totals (unless, of course, CCP lies on the user base numbers). So yeah, 0/10 on getting your undies all in a bunch... My point was that the majority do not agree with the OP. Read the thread and you'd realise that.
All in all you seem like a very young, and very angry, player. I recommend just calming down, realising that this is just a game, and then taking a fresh look at mechanics like these. Realising that this is a sandbox PvP MMO game may help too.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1067
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 17:41:00 -
[236] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:I've dropped my main down into an NPC corp plenty of times for hauling stuff through high sec, it is a very common practice. Good job :)
I assume you also make sure to not have too much "isk value of cargo": "gank cost" ratio. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1282
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 17:47:00 -
[237] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote:I've dropped my main down into an NPC corp plenty of times for hauling stuff through high sec, it is a very common practice. Good job :) I assume you also make sure to not have too much "isk value of cargo": "gank cost" ratio. Actually I always use a T2 transport. I only really move deadspace modules so it's pretty low volume anyway.
One of these days however I am probably going to get decloaked by a shuttle and hate myself for it.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 17:52:00 -
[238] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:The problem is that NPC corps, especially in the uses that me, Nicolo and others have been highlighting, are not used by "new" or "casual" players.
When you see a three year old NPC corp pilot in a JF, carrying *just* under the amount that would render it profitable to suicide gank, chances are that this is not a casual or new player. Instead it is an alt of an older, more experienced player who is hiding behind concord in order to evade any interference with their particular play style.
I should know, I abuse the crap out of the NPC system myself all the time. Look at some of the characters in this corp and see how often we have corp hopped in the past to avoid decs.
The fact is that if it is even remotely feasible to remove these arbitrary loop holes and protections for older players, whilst retaining protection for genuine new players, then it should be done. The question isn't whether or not it should be done, but whether or not it can be done. And if so, how?
Personally I'd introduce something crazy like suspect flags for NPC corp players over a certain age. Six months old and still in an NPC corp? Good luck making the Jita run with a JF full of technetium. Of course in order for this to have any real effect corp hopping and war dec evasion would also need to be looked at, but that's another issue entirely.
(Personally I liked the idea CCP had of war decs following people around, but unfortunately that is far too open to abuse.)
trimmed a bit,
but,
your "something crazy" really isn't all that crazy, though it should be actions-based, not time-based. Running frieght to/from systems where the SOV holder is at war? You should start building up sec-status-like values of association with that entity based on the value of the goods you import (i.e. sell, trade/contract, or you jettison and someone "affiliated" picks up) that eventually makes you a legal target for the other side of the war. Playing both sides just gets you in trouble with both sides- you never get to shoot first. Trading with people who have accumulated these "standings" will have the same effect. Donating ISK and taking contracts would also get you dinged. There'd be a fair few loopholes to sort out (or decide were enough of a fuss they'd be the new "price of being a black market") and would drive some of the devs nuts (as it would be a TON of data to sift through), but it mitigates a lot of what sounds like the truly valid issue with the NPC corps (the "hisec alts" shenanigans). Sure, you can move goods to just outside of where you'd start having these issues, but that's still making the exchange a bit more risky (as it doesn't happen behind SOV infrastructure). The same mechanic could apply to consistent dealings with alliances/corporations (probably *on top of* any SOV-related influence), as the point is to create consequences for deliberate interference/noncombatant participation in wars. Every downtime a little of your "collaborator" status would wear off, but if you become a target this would cease until you go a week without accruing more (probably on a per-faction basis).
All of this would, of course, need to be pointed out in the NPE, and come with a new slate of warnings whenever you were at risk of becoming a target. It would apply to *all* NPC corps, with new players getting only a fraction of the hit at first, increasing to "full" over the first 4-6 weeks of the account's activity (*not* per-character). Account recycling becomes similar to current alt-recycling proscriptions. Not having to deal with automatic exposure as a dirty supplier of *insert favorite bad people here* would become one of the benefits of forming a corp. Also, market sales would have to be factored in *somehow* but in a way that still allows players to conduct business- perhaps orders can be marked as "peaceful" and won't be available to people who would change your standings (likewise, a filter so you don't buy from/sell to orders that would affect you, or better yet allows you to set a threshold). This would fracture the market, which *may* be a disaster, but *may* work out as it means people who want to use all the really fancy stuff probably have to take a little extra risk and be careful just how much high-tech they buy, and you have to choose between selling to the first buyer who comes along or passing up the (presumably) better prices so you can stay out of the political messes.
One thing that should *not* happen is the expansion of corporate warfare to become individual warfare- the notion that people are "immune" to wardecs is mistaken. Wars are not about killing players (that's what bounties and killrights and such are supposed to be for... admittedly, there are issues with that such as "bounties are broken"), they're about corporations exerting influence over each other. No, EVE should not be safe, but the answer to one excessively-used way to avoid a mechanic shouldn't be to (further) screw up that mechanic and make it universal. |
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ISD Stensson
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
13
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 17:53:00 -
[239] - Quote
Thread moved from "EVE General Discussion" to "Features & Ideas Discussion" forum. ISD Stensson Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
35
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 17:54:00 -
[240] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:FireT wrote: So simply ban alts. There a simple solution
It is much simpler and less limiting to players to just ban NPC corps. BTW: NPC corps don't protect new players, they merely disincentivize players of all ages from working together in a player-run corp.
Delen Ormand wrote:FireT wrote:
So simply ban alts. There a simple solution, NPC corps are allowed for new and casual players and it still eliminates the actual problem.
Wouldn't work, people would use additional accounts instead of alts, which amount to much the same thing. There's not really any viable way to tell when several accounts belong to the same person.
Actually there is, and the solution is as absurd as your request: CCP just has to enforce passport ideas with each account. That simple. Absurd? Yes! Waste of CCPs time and money? Absolutely! Scaring away players? Exactly as your own ideas!
Exclamation marks for WIN! |
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1282
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 17:57:00 -
[241] - Quote
FireT wrote:Actually there is, and the solution is as absurd as your request: CCP just has to enforce passport ideas with each account. That simple. Absurd? Yes! Waste of CCPs time and money? Absolutely! Scaring away players? Exactly as your own ideas!
Exclamation marks for WIN! Only I am allowed to sarcastically over-use exclamation marks and look cool doing it.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 18:29:00 -
[242] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:
All in all you seem like a very young, and very angry, player. I recommend just calming down, realising that this is just a game, and then taking a fresh look at mechanics like these. Realising that this is a sandbox PvP MMO game may help too.
Wrong on all these assumptions. I am probably older than you. I also understand this is a sandbox PvP MMO. And that it is game.
However, lets refocus:
1) It was not clear that you were referring to the players in this thread in the posting I replied to. So, I accept the clarification, and yes, it seems so.
2) I was replying to the OP, yet, in your reply to me, you seem to invalidate my contribution mostly on the basis of "ignoring" the rest of the postings. While it is true I chose to refocus on the OP, are your thread police? Because if you are, what is the bribe? Forum donuts?
3) Hence, my response was not to your (and others) idea to do away with NPC corps, but the OP idea that it be wardec.
4) In that sense, all my other comments are not directed at you, personally, but using the rhetorical "you". A device that someone in possession of the maturity and language skills you presume to have certainly would be well acquainted with.
5) Lets be realistic and be clear: NPC corps cannot disappear. As I explained in my points, they play a specific, non-gameplay related role. Asking for their elimination is like asking for the Doomheim corp to be eliminated. That cannot happen without an entire rewrite of the character handling code of Eve. Good luck with that. We can ask for a tweaking of the mechanic, however. For example, wardecs against NPC corps, while I would oppose it, its entirely within the realm of possibility.
6) As to your specific example of jumping your main into an NPC corp, did you do it for long enough for a Wardec to happen? In other words, play your main for extended periods of time in an NPC corp? I highly doubt it.
7) It is sheer paranoia that experienced, worthy-of-being-attacked, players hide in NPC corps. They are used for alts.
8) But lets say they are. Again law of unintended consequences: all that will happen is people will setup extensive blue standing networks of one toon corps. You cannot possibly find and war all of them. And if you did, an experienced player would have a number of accounts with similarly trained toons for such purposes. War is denied.
The reality is, if people want to turn hisec into null sec, then ask for that. Campaign for that. But all of these "solutions" are simply not solving any problems, at least not any that cannot be resolved in other manners that are less labor intensive and less prone to extra exploits. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
4003
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 18:32:00 -
[243] - Quote
Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts? NPC corps =/= Noob corps. they're different entities. NPC corps can only be entered after a player leaves a player corporation.
Logging off should not be a safe haven for you. I should be allowed to go into your clone vat bay and continue to kill you until you are back to using an alpha clone. Rob your entire hanger bay and empty out your wallets.
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Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 18:41:00 -
[244] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:FireT wrote: So simply ban alts. There a simple solution
It is much simpler and less limiting to players to just ban NPC corps. BTW: NPC corps don't protect new players, they merely disincentivize players of all ages from working together in a player-run corp.
Is there any way to actually find out if this is true or not?
For example, lets find out what amount of non-trial account active toons have never been in a player run corp?
How many of active toons are currently in a player run corp vs those in an NPC corp besides the starting corps?
This should be trivial data for CCP to compile. If it is not already compiled.
That should settle the debate.
Because I do not share your impression. The taxes in the NPC corps and standing issues are a huge incentive to join corps.
A much bigger problem in this sense is player run corps run by a single person. 3 toon corps, I have even seen 12 toon corps owned by a single player. So I am not convinced you have given this any serious thought.
The only NPC corps this doesn't apply to are the Militias, and those are PvP, essentially at war with the other factional militias, so they are hardly hiding from combat. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1282
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 18:41:00 -
[245] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:5) Lets be realistic and be clear: NPC corps cannot disappear. As I explained in my points, they play a specific, non-gameplay related role. Asking for their elimination is like asking for the Doomheim corp to be eliminated. That cannot happen without an entire rewrite of the character handling code of Eve. Good luck with that. We can ask for a tweaking of the mechanic, however. For example, wardecs against NPC corps, while I would oppose it, its entirely within the realm of possibility.
6) As to your specific example of jumping your main into an NPC corp, did you do it for long enough for a Wardec to happen? In other words, play your main for extended periods of time in an NPC corp? I highly doubt it.
7) It is sheer paranoia that experienced, worthy-of-being-attacked, players hide in NPC corps. They are used for alts.
8) But lets say they are. Again law of unintended consequences: all that will happen is people will setup extensive blue standing networks of one toon corps. You cannot possibly find and war all of them. And if you did, an experienced player would have a number of accounts with similarly trained toons for such purposes. War is denied. 5-6) If you'd done more than skim read my posts you'd realise I do not want to declare war on individuals, or on NPC corps. Nor do I wish to removed NPC corps.
7) Its not paranoia, I've done it. I know people who do it. If you'd ever been in a null sec corp with permadecs you'd probably know them too.
8) Again, completely irrelevant given the mechanics changes I proposed.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 18:46:00 -
[246] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote: 8) Again, completely irrelevant given the mechanics changes I proposed.
Exactly, I am not addressing your proposed mechanic. I am addressing the OP's.
I am also addressing your objection to my objections to OP's mechanic.
Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 19:03:00 -
[247] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:
5-6) If you'd done more than skim read my posts you'd realise I do not want to declare war on individuals, or on NPC corps. Nor do I wish to removed NPC corps.
7) Its not paranoia, I've done it. I know people who do it. If you'd ever been in a null sec corp with permadecs you'd probably know them too.
Read 5-6 again. Slowly. I am talking about player owned corps.
And read 7 again. Slowly. I am describing exactly that use.
Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
FireT
Royal Advanced Industries Imperial Hull Tankers
37
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 19:04:00 -
[248] - Quote
Sorry. *slinks away* |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1287
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 19:18:00 -
[249] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote:
5-6) If you'd done more than skim read my posts you'd realise I do not want to declare war on individuals, or on NPC corps. Nor do I wish to removed NPC corps.
7) Its not paranoia, I've done it. I know people who do it. If you'd ever been in a null sec corp with permadecs you'd probably know them too.
Read 5-6 again. Slowly. I am talking about player owned corps. And read 7 again. Slowly. I am describing exactly that use. In 5-6 you clearly state NPC corps. "NPC corps cannot disapear", "they play", "wardecs against NPC corps", "example of jumping into an NPC corp" etc.
At no point do you mention player corps.
Similarly with 7, if you were talking about the reasons people hide in NPC corps then I suspect you meant "it is because of"? Instead of "it is sheer paranoia"? The second has a different meaning, suggesting that it is sheer paranoia to believe that players hide in NPC corps.
Anyway, it seems we mostly agree and we're just arguing over typos, semantics and the OP's stupidity.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 19:21:00 -
[250] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote: Anyway, it seems we mostly agree and we're just arguing over typos, semantics and the OP's stupidity.
And here I was hoping I was going to be the sensible one...
Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
|
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
269
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 21:18:00 -
[251] - Quote
Ayame Tao wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:As usual you people get it wrong.
The correct approach is to teach people to WANT to PvP, not to make game mechanics grab them by the nutsacks and hold them steady while you melt them in RR + Falcon + T3 PvP ships. This... Stop trying to twist the game to your continued agenda of ganking clueless soft targets in hi-sec. NPC corps got you down? You know Neutral RR, non-wardec and all those problems go away outside of hi-sec right? Just because lo-sec and null-sec are empty of people for you to shoot at (especially ones that don't shoot back) or are the primary living space of the enourmous blue-friends-circle-jerk of love. Sorry... does the elite PvP community need a wahmbulance? Has ti truly come to the last option left for shooting something to invade hi-sec and pick targets so soft you can kill them solo ina destroyer? Fearsome. Besides, until the war-dec system is comletely overhauled and fixed to stop shedding, shielding, dogpiling and all the other crap, it's pretty much useless. NPC corps pretty much provide the only protection for casual PvE players, who - whether you like it or not - just want to run some missions or do mining and largely pays the frikkin bills around here. You may hate them, you may wish to kill them (and you can) your combat prowess may just barely extend to fighting a wet webbed Retreiver (you scary pirate... ooooh) but that's not the game's problem. Know thyself...
This
They're crying because NPC alts or simply players but yeah, well known a 3 year old toon with JF skills it's an OBVIOUS idiot alt that should load at minimum 200bill of stuff, yep...read forums is optional ask questions too the it's obvious everyone buys 7+ bilion ship to haul crap and moves raound like in some velator, yep, indeed *shakes head*
They're already crying because: atm Hulks were far too profitable for high sec, badly tanked, and high sec miners are all bots. Indeed, it's so obvious, I mean how can someone not even think about this? HS+Miner= Bot it's not rocket science /facepalm Whenever those procurers with batttleship ehp are going to hit TS what will be their next stupid excuse for tears?
Those whiners incapable to adapt to whatever always pointing someone's internet pixels gaming lack of knowledge with laughs are actually the biggest emoragers.
They can't kill rookies: rivers of tears and pathetic thread incoming ASAP, because it's important stuff.
They can't can flip/bait rookies: rivers of tears and pathetic arguments even a psychopath would hardly find, but they do well.
They can't define themselves what a rookie is: because they don't want to assume consequences of their acts and want big muma to hold their hand, witch leads to obvious whining and pathetic threads/quality posting even I couldn't ever get to -and you know I'm not bad at trolling internet anonymous honour/feelings
Wait, Concord exploit a few months back: another ocean of tears ladies and gents!! -get your Ray Ban and coco oil
Moral of this thread, summer is going to be hot and we're not going to miss tears for our swimming pool drunken party's
Hit tha music plz
brb |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1297
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 21:50:00 -
[252] - Quote
Does anyone else find certain player's misuse of the word psychopath extremely disturbing? Seriously, person above, whoever you are chill out.
For one thing, I don't kill people in high sec myself. But I do understand the importance of it being possible. Especially with things like JF logistics.
And even if I did kill players in high sec, its a game. PvP players are not genuine psychopaths because they want to take away each others internet space pixels.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
270
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 22:31:00 -
[253] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:Does anyone else find certain player's misuse of the word psychopath extremely disturbing? Seriously, person above, whoever you are chill out.
Don't take internet pixels too seriously sweet blonde babe, those are just words and if you take a close look you'll see more of general terms response for some group that always uses general terms to justify the importance of their crusade. It's a 50-50 game of words for pixels, but if you ever felt blessed yourself because of those accept my sincere apologies, I'm not here to insult any one (for free), just to have some fun because Eve OForums are awesome too to role play a little bit. Of course I play the obvious troll role
Quote:For one thing, I don't kill people in high sec myself. But I do understand the importance of it being possible. Especially with things like JF logistics.
I can perfectly agree on this, my first goal when I started to get Eve dependant (yep I'm also Eve junky on top of troll) was to be part of some heavy fleet/industrial escort, I couldn't see it in any other way and my first plan was Megathron/Blasters !! (but then figured out one month later how crap those were and was flying shield Brutixes/shield Myrmidons)
Jump freighters and jump bridges just killed all the game play around travelling to make those important tasks banalities and almost impossible to catch, therefore impacting on everyone ability to denies resources/gods trading etc
It must be not fun at all to make 50 jumps out of null sec with some freighter and 20/30 man escort for peanuts or almost nothing when this time could be better invested on doing something more fun.
Witch leads me to this conclusion hoping you understand a little bit my point of view about alts in high sec and what I think are false/fake arguments.
*Significantly increase trading taxes, market fees in high sec and decrease proportionally in low/null sec doesn't mean we're going to see pop here and there Jita islands everywhere in null sec where everyone is a good biy and comes get his Tengu, but it's a good step to reinforce low and null sec trading
*GANK high sec manufacturing/invention/research slots, increase cost and time to complete. Give some buff to these industry slots to low sec and significantly increase it in null, this will not solve neither neutral high sec alts but it's a good step to make people think about putting them in low or null rather than high sec because *margin get a kick in the balls*
*decrease number of moons available for POS anchoring, make those inactive being weak to hacking so this give also a little boost to those mini professions in high sec. Limit the number of possible POS industry modules and give those same base stats than NPC values (once it's balanced OC) This will not solve high sec NPC alts issue but will help revitalise low and null sec without making impossible to live for those players choosing to stay in high sec.
If those 3 major points are taken seriously and revamp, then I'm almost sure 50% problems you or whoever else finds with hogh sec NPC neutral alts will completely disappear by themselves. Of course these points and comments are not exhaustive, a lot more stuff needs to get in to account before ever touch whatsoever but I guess it's a good start.
What do you think?
Quote:And even if I did kill players in high sec, its a game. PvP players are not genuine psychopaths because they want to take away each others internet space pixels.
I know that brb |
Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
153
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 22:38:00 -
[254] - Quote
Kimmi Chan wrote:A more productive endeavor might be to look for someone who does want to fight.
You do understand that these people are in high sec wardec'ing carebear corps for a reason, right? It ain't strategy, it ain't money, and it ain't lulz. It's epeen. They can't survive in null, would lose too much in low, so they go to high where they know their Vindi's and Vagas can kill noobships and Retrievers and Hulks.
Period. At least the scammers in Jita have the balls to admit their scumbags. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1301
|
Posted - 2012.06.19 22:38:00 -
[255] - Quote
You know, sometimes I forget who the other trolls are, then we start trolling one another and before we know it we have trolls trolling trolls of trolls. We should really come up with some kind of a list, or forum equivalent of a secret hand shake by which we can identify one another.
Anyway, you raise some interesting points. I shall reply to them forthwith, when I am not replying on my phone.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
18
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 00:23:00 -
[256] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:You know, sometimes I forget who the other trolls are, then we start trolling one another and before we know it we have trolls trolling trolls of trolls.
You don't say... "."
Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
239
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 02:04:00 -
[257] - Quote
Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". . I had to laugh looking at your face and reading this, your first line.
maybe npc stations shouldn't be safe either.. and you shouldn't be safe in warp.. or safe when you are recustomizing your character ... or when you are logged out and in your bed at night... or......
This has been ranted about over and over.. there is a reason for NPC corps: new players need them and there needs to be a safe deposit corp for players that are forced out of a corp or that are not subscribed for a length of time and cannot choose a new corp for themselves. Like it or not they are necessary.
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
153
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 11:36:00 -
[258] - Quote
I agree with the OP on this, at least somewhat. While I don't think players should be allowed to declare war on NPC corporations, I think that some NPC corporations should have wars going on, and others should have drawbacks for joining (like high tax rates). The only exemption should be noob corps, and only for young characters (say, 3 months).
So if what I said came true, you would have to join a NPC corp to fight people in an NPC corp, and in fact the NPC Navy in that corp's systems would fight you, but you -COULD- attack the pilot you were after if you were so determined to do it.
Next up: GiS -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |
hungrymanbreakfast
Xion Limited Primal Force
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 13:51:00 -
[259] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe". So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's? Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it. I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps. Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Thoughts? I agree, to an extent. I think NPC corps should be wardecablle, but the fee higher AND toons less than 6 months old should be immune. It's just wrong that a game like this has un-deccable hiding spots. Either npc corps should be war-deccable OR players in npc corps should be restricted from doing anything that affects the game like making isk or shooting people.
HAHAHA this must be a troll. Yes, lets allow people to wardec the newbs for a "higher fee" That happens and I'm literally gonna be sitting in an oracle with 50 friends popping every rookie that undocks in 1.0 space. They want people that like to pvp actually going into nullsec and lowsec to fight... Not just baitcanning newbs that dont know the game mechanics and plowing them. |
Mike Whiite
Keystone Industrial Band 0f Brothers
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 14:10:00 -
[260] - Quote
I read 2 stories here.
1) I should be able to shoot anyone without getting my but kicked by concord.
Well I think you're right EVE is harsh and unprovoked attacks in Controled space are dealt with accordingly, works as intended, want to shoot people move to low, 0.0 and WH Space, plenty of ships to shoot there.
2) People abuse NPC corps to hide alts.
well that is something I can understand has to be dealt with, problem is all suggestions to do so, totaly disgard those that are not abbusing the NPC corp.
-Just keep track of standings: Monitor 0 isk contracts or large ammoun of cash being handed over between a NPC corp member and one Person, Corp, Alliance, go over a certain amount with in a certain time and gain standing towards that corp/aliance, not unlike normal standing, when you have enough standing with a corp you shoud be able to be war decked as induvidual.
Solves a lot of problems with Alts hiding in NPC corps. and might actualy impulse the transportation market.
(Yes you could start a chain of alts, train those all to freighter pilots make a rotation scedual, but it's probably cheaper to hire a freighter)
Seems al more player friendly than forcing every one to become ducks for shooting when someone wants to.
|
|
Zyress
The Fabulous Thunderbirds
105
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 19:57:00 -
[261] - Quote
MaxxOmega wrote:Freezehunter wrote:It would be awesome if NPC corps could be war decced.
That way, inflation in this game would not run rampant because some people just make ISK for the sake of making ISK, and they would be forced to lose their super expensive faction fitted loot pinatas, which would encourage them to buy new stuff and help the market doing so. It would do no such thing at all. Any time I am in an NPC corp it is full of playeres with no ISK. Also since the NPC Corp has no real command structure or home base, full of people with no roles and absolutely no ties to each other, no one cares. Just try to get people in an NPC corp to get together to do anything. It's a completely stupid idea. As someone else said, people will just create one man corps. You can't FORCE anyone to fight if they don't want to fight, they will just quit... Donte wrote:Some added that they would just be steamrolled by corps with t3 ships and logistics... Cant people in NPC corps get t3 ships and their own logistics? Of course the answer is "Yes". They can indeed defend themselves from aggressors.
The key is, however, they don't want too! No the real key is you can't MAKE them...
As is frequently pointed out in these forums, you are never safe in Eve outside a station. If you really want to kill them go ahead. Just know in advance your're going to loose your ship. Suicide gankers do it all the time. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1325
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 21:53:00 -
[262] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:I read 2 stories here.
1) I should be able to shoot anyone without getting my but kicked by concord.
Well I think you're right EVE is harsh and unprovoked attacks in Controled space are dealt with accordingly, works as intended, want to shoot people move to low, 0.0 and WH Space, plenty of ships to shoot there. The problem is that it's us guys in low, 0.0 and WH space that are abusing the NPC corp system and corp hopping for risk free hauling/mining etc.
A while back there was a story about a rather well known null sec corporation, the CEO was banned by CCP for botting and in leaving decided to rage and write an open-letter describing his exact methodology, and highlighting the guilt of others in his corporation.
He had a corporation whose members almost entirely owned super capitals, and spent all their time PvPing instead of care bearing, he achieved this by teaching his members to set up high sec bot miners and mission runners. These miners and mission runners where essentially impervious to interference, generated an almost constant ISK flow and allowed his members to spend all their real time in game PvPing and climbing up alliance KB ladders.
The story can be found here.
Now botting of course is not the only reason high sec war evasion and NPC corp mining are bad for the game, but it is a very good one. Impervious logistics chains are another, between jump freighters, carriers and the ease with which you can evade war decs modern day logistics is ridiculously risk-free.
Mike Whiite wrote:2) People abuse NPC corps to hide alts.
well that is something I can understand has to be dealt with, problem is all suggestions to do so, totaly disgard those that are not abbusing the NPC corp.
-Just keep track of standings: Monitor 0 isk contracts or large ammoun of cash being handed over between a NPC corp member and one Person, Corp, Alliance, go over a certain amount with in a certain time and gain standing towards that corp/aliance, not unlike normal standing, when you have enough standing with a corp you shoud be able to be war decked as induvidual.
Solves a lot of problems with Alts hiding in NPC corps. and might actualy impulse the transportation market.
(Yes you could start a chain of alts, train those all to freighter pilots make a rotation scedual, but it's probably cheaper to hire a freighter)
Seems al more player friendly than forcing every one to become ducks for shooting when someone wants to. That is quite a large amount of work, I don't think it would be feasible given the man power required to enforce it. It would also be very easy to bypass by contracting everything to a docked in station NPC alt, then using that alt as a buffer to trade to your main corp.
Or, like most of us do, by simply cynoing our stuff to the edge of low sec, then dropping into an NPC corp to haul through the high sec.
Anyway, I'm still of the opinion that characters over a certain age (6 months?) should be given a suspect flag if in an NPC corp. Obviously conditions would have to be put on it, perhaps a timer so that they would only receive a suspect flag if undocked for x amount of time, but it seems like a reasonable approach.
Remove the value of NPC corps for neutral hauling, mining and missioning. Then fix the war dec evasion loop holes. Suddenly the older players in high sec lose their safety nets, and with any luck "griefer" types will stop targeting newbies like they do currently.
As it stands people in high sec just pick on newbies, purely because anyone with any experience can easily evade any kind of threat. IMHO this shouldn't be encouraged, it should be the newer players who are given extra protection, not the other way round.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
301
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 07:48:00 -
[263] - Quote
Asking to be able to wardec NPC corps is basically just asking for the ability to do exactly the same thing you can do now (ganking) without any of the consequences of doing so.
OP is simply risk averse and wants easy targets he can shoot indiscriminately. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window. (Link was wrong, now fixed) |
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
26
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 08:26:00 -
[264] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: OP is simply risk averse and wants easy targets he can shoot indiscriminately.
Problem with this theory is than then people would be prepared to shoot back instead of AFK Freighters with 50 million less stuff than what would make a gank worthwhile.
See?
Nah, the OP simply wants null everywhere. As I have said elsewhere, that means OP seriously misunderstands Null, or he likes being a feudal slave, or he is a feudal lord.
Nulls is not about shooting ships. Null is about sov. Hisec feeds null with isk so it can have stuff to defend sov with. Its a symbiosis.
NPC Corps are:
1) Isk sink because of taxes
2) Gankable therefore not safe.
So lets stop the pretend game and lets make clear all of these tweaks are about misguided attempts to turn EVE into Nullsec, not for PVP reasons, but for sov/egotrip reasons. Eve forums official anthem:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA |
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 08:32:00 -
[265] - Quote
I don't normally troll, but...
OP Translation: "I'm tired of PvPing against people actually at or better than my own level. In the name of glorifying my killboard, CCP should allow me to hover my Machriel outside of newbie stations and all of the pop one-day old players as fast as they can undock all day long because that will help me feel more like a Real Man. Sure, the constant ass-raping of everyone with less than a billion SP under their belts will cause over half the playerbase to quit overnight and guarantee that EvE completely stops getting new subscribers, ultimately resulting in CCP going bankrupt and the game coming to an end, but that does not compare to the sheer importance of me being able to club seals for lulz." |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1332
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 08:35:00 -
[266] - Quote
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: OP is simply risk averse and wants easy targets he can shoot indiscriminately.
Problem with this theory is than then people would be prepared to shoot back instead of AFK Freighters with 50 million less stuff than what would make a gank worthwhile. See? Nah, the OP simply wants null everywhere. As I have said elsewhere, that means OP seriously misunderstands Null, or he likes being a feudal slave, or he is a feudal lord. Nulls is not about shooting ships. Null is about sov. Hisec feeds null with isk so it can have stuff to defend sov with. Its a symbiosis. NPC Corps are: 1) Isk sink because of taxes 2) Gankable therefore not safe. So lets stop the pretend game and lets make clear all of these tweaks are about misguided attempts to turn EVE into Nullsec, not for PVP reasons, but for sov/egotrip reasons. 1) That isn't an ISK sink.
2) Suicide ganking is a stupid mechanic and only works on dumb hulk pilots and even dumber haulers*.
3) I'm just going to link to Nicolo's excellent post concerning your claims that Null is some kind of feudal system.
*As for your straw man argument concerning ganking empty freighters, you know that is not the issue. The issue is the ease with which we can move tech to market hubs, or low ends and ships out to staging systems. Not to mention the thousands of other points on the last few pages you've conveniently forgotten (again).
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1332
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 08:36:00 -
[267] - Quote
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:I don't normally troll, but...
OP Translation: "I'm tired of PvPing against people actually at or better than my own level. In the name of glorifying my killboard, CCP should allow me to hover my Machriel outside of newbie stations and all of the pop one-day old players as fast as they can undock all day long because that will help me feel more like a Real Man. Sure, the constant ass-raping of everyone with less than a billion SP under their belts will cause over half the playerbase to quit overnight and guarantee that EvE completely stops getting new subscribers, ultimately resulting in CCP going bankrupt and the game coming to an end, but that does not compare to the sheer importance of me being able to club seals for lulz." Read the thread.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Mike Whiite
Keystone Industrial Band 0f Brothers
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 10:16:00 -
[268] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:[Anyway, I'm still of the opinion that characters over a certain age (6 months?) should be given a suspect flag if in an NPC corp. Obviously conditions would have to be put on it, perhaps a timer so that they would only receive a suspect flag if undocked for x amount of time, but it seems like a reasonable approach.
As it stands people in high sec just pick on newbies, purely because anyone with any experience can easily evade any kind of threat. IMHO this shouldn't be encouraged, it should be the newer players who are given extra protection, not the other way round.
I can understand what you're trying to accomplish here, it's all in those conditions, if that be contracting to only one corp or something else. I can live with that. 6 months is rather early if you ask me but depending on the conditions is could be, I'm just against the fact that a a number of casual players should be forced out side the logical safety of being part of an empire.
I still think it should be something with the Cargo instead of the pilot. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
1336
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 10:27:00 -
[269] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote:Simi Kusoni wrote:[Anyway, I'm still of the opinion that characters over a certain age (6 months?) should be given a suspect flag if in an NPC corp. Obviously conditions would have to be put on it, perhaps a timer so that they would only receive a suspect flag if undocked for x amount of time, but it seems like a reasonable approach.
As it stands people in high sec just pick on newbies, purely because anyone with any experience can easily evade any kind of threat. IMHO this shouldn't be encouraged, it should be the newer players who are given extra protection, not the other way round. I can understand what you're trying to accomplish here, it's all in those conditions, if that be contracting to only one corp or something else. I can live with that. 6 months is rather early if you ask me but depending on the conditions is could be, I'm just against the fact that a a number of casual players should be forced out side the logical safety of being part of an empire. I still think it should be something with the Cargo instead of the pilot. To be honest, how many real players do you know that haven't joined a player corp after six months?
A good idea I saw for conditions in another thread was ship class. So if a pilot is >6 months flying a marauder he'd get flagged, similarly he'd be flagged for flying a JF or freighter, but could still fly a drake about or move a few things in a T1 hauler.
Since we now have cargo values that could also be limited to JF or Freighter with anything of value inside, but tbh that would probably just result in people trying to double wrap cargos/game the system. Or staying 0.01 ISK under limit.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 11:00:00 -
[270] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:To be honest, how many real players do you know that haven't joined a player corp after six months?
My guess would be "Anyone named Drusila"
Are they all related?
Who knows? |
|
Mike Whiite
Keystone Industrial Band 0f Brothers
49
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 12:43:00 -
[271] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:[To be honest, how many real players do you know that haven't joined a player corp after six months?
Heh Actualy I my self took a little longer than 6 months, I started playing just after my son was born, first to kill time when you where up long nights. No real time for commitment and not shure when I could play. Therefor not realy looking for a corp or an asset for one. when things cooled down I got to manage play time a little better.
But I know still a couple of persons who play 1 hour here, there now and then.
Because they lack the time or don't want to commit themselfs to a corp. Because others abuse a system, it should not be removed to those that use it at it was intended.
That said, the conditions you suggest deserve to be looked at.
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Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
273
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Posted - 2012.06.21 15:01:00 -
[272] - Quote
Again, if those alliances/corporations have high sec alts in NPC Corps to haul stuff it's probably because industry/trading is easier and cheaper than in low/null sec.
There's no problem with actual NPC corporations and how many alts you can have there, Tech doesn't come from high sec, T3 components don't come from high sec, low end ores don't come from high sec neither, but every single alliance has their main production in high sec, so the question is why?
Answer this question and you'll find out NPC corp characters are not the problem. brb |
McOboe
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
91
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Posted - 2012.06.21 15:13:00 -
[273] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:
1) That isn't an ISK sink.
NPC taxes are definitely an ISK sink. |
Cor'byn Black
Black Brigade Mercenary Company
0
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Posted - 2012.06.21 15:29:00 -
[274] - Quote
I can only imagine someone declaring war on one of the Amarr or Caldari NPC corps then their alliance having to contend with the full might of the NPC Empires. Though a cool addition to this is a way to sign short term privateer agreements with the the decced Empire.
PC Corp: "We declare war on Khanid Works to dip into their ship manufacturing market." Amarr Empire: *Offers letters of Marque for a price and bounties on enemy PC vessels.* |
Hesidak Uroboroon
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2012.06.21 15:41:00 -
[275] - Quote
perhaps deccing an npc corp could severely lower you standing with the faction it's a member of, and that faction's militia could attack you freely along with the npc corp members. the corp's faction could also place bountys on your head (once the system is fixed) or it could lock your ability to run missions for the corp. although noob entry corps would not be able to be decced, and members of those corps would be moved to a normal npc corp once they reached a max sp count The U.S. Navy has developed a railgun that can hit a target the size of a watermelon from about 200km away. -áits probably around 8,000 years in the future, we can go faster then light, be immortal, teleport capital ships, communicate instantly, mine asteroids and make ships invisible,yet still our railguns can't even hit over 100km.... |
Andrew Keiran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.07.04 16:16:00 -
[276] - Quote
Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe".
So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's?
Because some players don't want their every ship destroyed by idiots who can't enjoy anything else than ruining the game for others.
Not everyone plays EVE for combat, deal with it. Game is for everyone. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub Like I Give A F--K
1420
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Posted - 2012.07.04 16:19:00 -
[277] - Quote
Andrew Keiran wrote:Donte wrote:EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe".
So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's?
Because some players don't want their every ship destroyed by idiots who can't enjoy anything else than ruining the game for others. Not everyone plays EVE for combat, deal with it. Game is for everyone. ITT: Necro trolling.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
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