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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
84
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:15:00 -
[541] - Quote
/disappointed that my SoE-for-all-the-pirates got no traction at all.
/fascinated by how bad nullsec industry is.
Thread success. |
Malphilos
State War Academy Caldari State
111
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:16:00 -
[542] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Malphilos wrote:Weaselior wrote:Malphilos wrote:Weaselior wrote:Generally speaking the only thing that we want nerfed in highsec ... QED It's like a freaking disease. the idea nothing should be nerfed is stupid and wrong Proof, please. You'll excuse me if I don't genuflect and accept your opinion as the absolute truth. The idea that something needs to be nerfed is a symptom of a base and mean intellect. We could of course tell CCP to just double the isk payout for rats etc,...
Why? As in: what's the objective?
Only slightly less depressing and common than the urge to kill everybody else's cows is the belief that throwing iskies at things is the solution.
To wit, if the isk generation in null is so horrible, why are people there? If it's not, why do people ever leave?
I suggest there's an elephant in the room.
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arcca jeth
Dark Alliance Dark Empire Alliance
80
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:16:00 -
[543] - Quote
I've been saying this for awhile in multiple threads and really hope CCP will do this. As some have already mentioned in this thread, industry in null/low SUCKS and it needs more reward. When I ventured to low for my 1st low sec mining/refining project it wasn't the "passerby's" or "miner bashers" that really concerned me. I just sacrifice one strip turret for a cloaky and watched D-scan and local. What really turned me off from the whole thing was that the refining rates and refining times for the POS modules was just unacceptable. You lose a lot of resources and it takes way too long. If I were to move back to low or null and setup project operations it would be only if the rewards for refining there were boosted. I really cannot seem to find anyone who opposes these basic simple ideas:
1. revamp the bonuses on refining structures for the POS's. Make them substantially better than high sec station refining. I am talking like 50% better than high sec. So you could even break them down to 2 refining structures. 1 for null and one for .4 to .1 Make the one for null the highest rate and the one for low 2nd best rate and leave high sec refining the way it is. People are opportunistic in nature and you might, JUST MIGHT, have people hauling their high sec ores for those higher refining yields.
2. give industrialists a 2nd capital industrial ship for those who do not wish to anchor a POS. Make it equally as expensive and time consuming to train for as the Rorqual and instead of compressing make it a mobile refinery. Some might say that this might make the Rorqual obsolete and that could be a possibility, so maybe revamp the Rorqual to play this role and get rid of the compressing capability completely.
Manufacturing bonuses should also be BETTER in regards to time and materials required than high sec.
3. NPC pirate faction missions. It would be a lot of fun running missions in low and null for hidden or hard to find NPC pirate factions. This could open a whole new world of possibilities for pirates with low security status. Again, the risk has to be worth the reward so the payout of bounties for the kills and the mission payouts would need to be substantially better than high sec.
as the system is set up now, it's kind of like punishment for even wanting to do it. and the reward is lackluster at best. why do all the work in low/null and run the risk of losing your resources and products when you can do it all better in high sec? so you don't get the mega and zydrine? so what! buy it and you will still make a profit in high sec.
increase the industry in low/null and you will see increased traffic. you will also see more "juicy targets" for the pirates. give us the egg and you can have the chicken!
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Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1087
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:19:00 -
[544] - Quote
Malphilos wrote:To wit, if the isk generation in null is so horrible, why are people there?
Because they enjoy other aspects of nullsec and opt for generating ISK elsewhere, or simply putting up with the horrible ISK generation in nullsec.
Believe it or not most people don't live in nullsec just to make ISK, but being able to make a little better than L4 income + 10% is nice because, well, PvPers have to fund their PvP. eh |
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
99
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:21:00 -
[545] - Quote
Malphilos wrote:To wit, if the isk generation in null is so horrible, why are people there? If it's not, why do people ever leave?
I suggest there's an elephant in the room.
High Sec Alts. Seriously, there are a lot more of us in HighSec these days than people seem to realize. Which is a damn shame because it detracts from Null Sec play. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
67
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:23:00 -
[546] - Quote
Rer Eirikr wrote:If we could just cut the dry sarcasm and bullshit responses I think we may be able to have another informative page or so about ISK generation in Null Sec vs. High Sec and the pros/cons of both. Pretty, pretty please? Or do I have to go back to Kugu for good posts?
We know what the problem is with expanding isk making in null. We need stations that aren't crappier than highsec ones. Just giving use stations that are equal to highsec ones in terms of factory slots and base refine would be an improvement. Allowing us to drop multiple stations of highsec quality would be even better.
Until then, nullsec is going to remain a place where people just export raw materials and rat loot. Outside of super production, no one really wants to invest in a supply chain that is less efficient, less safe and generally less lucrative than what highsec offers. |
Lord Zim
863
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:23:00 -
[547] - Quote
Malphilos wrote:Only slightly less depressing and common than the urge to kill everybody else's cows is the belief that throwing iskies at things is the solution. I'll happily take a mining ship which'll mine 10x as much as the equivalent hisec barge.
I could've suggested that rat wrecks are salvageable for minerals, but drones had that and CCP decided that 40% of all minerals coming from gunmining instead of bargemining was no good. So they nerfed that.
Malphilos wrote:To wit, if the isk generation in null is so horrible, why are people there? If it's not, why do people ever leave? It's not horrible, it's just not good enough in comparison to L4s etc to incentivize most people into bothering with doing sanctums etc for isk, so they leave a L4 char in hisec instead. |
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
99
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 22:24:00 -
[548] - Quote
Yea, we touched on this around pages 7-12, and overall I felt we left with a lot of people having a new understanding for just how bad Null/Low Industry really is. |
dontbanmebro
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
23
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:25:00 -
[549] - Quote
Dragon Outlaw wrote:garbage
Yes, it is fear of all your really good ideas. Because they're really good. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1090
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:25:00 -
[550] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Mrr Woodcock wrote:I think you may have something there. But I also think they will need to make the rewards greater. CFC incursion runners were netting a pretty silly amount of ISK from vanguard farming, just under what hisec shiny fleets were pulling incursions did need a reduction in their rewards but trying to fix incursions, which are effectively the same regardless of security level (save for the lack of gate rats in hisec) means that they have to balance them around goddamn shinyfleets which really do not happen outside of hisec I'm guessing the reason people didn't use neutral (altcorp) alts and farm incursions in safe highsec is because they needed to be shiny to get in? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
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Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
85
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:27:00 -
[551] - Quote
arcca jeth wrote:3. NPC pirate faction missions. It would be a lot of fun running missions in low and null for hidden or hard to find NPC pirate factions. This could open a whole new world of possibilities for pirates with low security status. Again, the risk has to be worth the reward so the payout of bounties for the kills and the mission payouts would need to be substantially better than high sec.
These already exist in NPC nullsec. There are even two pirate epic arcs that you only need a decent frigate to complete - player knowledge is much more of a barrier to them than SP. Standings are also a barrier if you've made a habit of killing pirates, or if the pirates you'd like to work for are hostile to a faction that has come to love you (for instance, not even Diplomacy V gets my Blood/Sansha faction standings to the point where I'm no longer restricted to L1 missions.) |
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
101
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:28:00 -
[552] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:Mrr Woodcock wrote:I think you may have something there. But I also think they will need to make the rewards greater. CFC incursion runners were netting a pretty silly amount of ISK from vanguard farming, just under what hisec shiny fleets were pulling incursions did need a reduction in their rewards but trying to fix incursions, which are effectively the same regardless of security level (save for the lack of gate rats in hisec) means that they have to balance them around goddamn shinyfleets which really do not happen outside of hisec I'm guessing the reason people didn't use neutral (altcorp) alts and farm incursions in safe highsec is because they needed to be shiny to get in?
If you weren't in a Basi, Faction Battleship, or Legion-Fleet you were very often waiting a significant amount of time for a fleet invite, even then, you'd have to hope your fleet was good enough to compete.
Even with that factored though the ISK you could generate was just stupid. |
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance Dark Empire Alliance
80
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:29:00 -
[553] - Quote
Kuehnelt wrote:arcca jeth wrote:3. NPC pirate faction missions. It would be a lot of fun running missions in low and null for hidden or hard to find NPC pirate factions. This could open a whole new world of possibilities for pirates with low security status. Again, the risk has to be worth the reward so the payout of bounties for the kills and the mission payouts would need to be substantially better than high sec. These already exist in NPC nullsec. There are even two pirate epic arcs that you only need a decent frigate to complete - player knowledge is much more of a barrier to them than SP. Standings are also a barrier if you've made a habit of killing pirates, or if the pirates you'd like to work for are hostile to a faction that has come to love you (for instance, not even Diplomacy V gets my Blood/Sansha faction standings to the point where I'm no longer restricted to L1 missions.)
is the risk worth the reward in terms of comparison to L4 high sec's? I know there is already some of this in place but when it comes to the rewards, no experience to know better. |
dontbanmebro
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
23
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:33:00 -
[554] - Quote
People play in null despite the risk/reward imbalances because they enjoy the human drama. They like being a part of something bigger than themselves, even if it's just a cheap veneer painted over pixel spaceships.
The biggest job I had when I ran a nullsec corp was to keep people informed, but in a way that told a story or a "narrative". That's what people wanted more than anything, and that's what kept them logging in and playing.
When we talk about improving nullsec, we're talking about adding greater depth to the elements behind that human drama, so it's not just a few select content-creators driving everything, but a more natural and organic development of cooperation and conflict driven by the very mechanics of the game.
The amazing stories that come out of nullsec are largely in spite of game mechanics, as opposed to a direct and engineered product of them. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3564
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 22:35:00 -
[555] - Quote
Malphilos wrote: Why? As in: what's the objective?
The objective is to bring the risk/reward for activities in line with each other. If an activity (say, 0.0 ratting) is significantly riskier than another (l4 missions) but not significantly more profitable then we have a problem. The additional risk is not compensated by additional reward so people performing that activity will decrease. As ratters & miners are the basic prey of 0.0 gankers, those activities being strictly inferior to empire-based activities disrupts the 0.0 system. This is how level 4 missions, by being excessively profitable, actively hurt nullsec. This can be fixed by adjusting every nullsec activity and every other activity up to bring l4s in line or you nerf l4s down. The former is obviously a lot more work and has the potential to severely disrupt the rest of the economy and is therefore inferior to the l4 nerf. |
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
101
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 22:35:00 -
[556] - Quote
arcca jeth wrote:is the risk worth the reward in terms of comparison to L4 high sec's? I know there is already some of this in place but when it comes to the rewards, no experience to know better.
It varies. I enjoyed doing Angel missions in Curse, but there would be times where I couldn't do anything do to either being heavily camped or outnumbered. When I could farm the Level 4 missions however, trading in LPs for Cynabal BPCs was pretty awesome. |
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
85
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 22:39:00 -
[557] - Quote
arcca jeth wrote:is the risk worth the reward in terms of comparison to L4 high sec's? I know there is already some of this in place but when it comes to the rewards, no experience to know better.
I don't know about the rewards yet -- I'm still stuck grinding L1 storylines :-) Also I've never done highsec L4s to have something to compare them against. There are 1mil rats all over the place and also combat exploration sites, but shooting (local) rats would just mean more L1 storylines. I do know that pirate LP store ammo is bloody worthless.
And for me, the risk is part of the reward. The other day I blew through a bubbled Sabre+Hurricane+Drake gate camp, having a Talos on the other side, in my Arbitrator. More recently I took a Succubus out and tackled a Hyperion in a belt - but had to leave after he managed his drones better than I managed shooting them. There are recons all about and I am very aware of them. In highsec there's rarely a reason to remember that you're playing a multiplayer game.
But still, they exist. Pick friendlier pirates to work for than I did and you can get a quicker idea of what to expect. |
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
101
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 22:40:00 -
[558] - Quote
Its mostly faction ship BPCs that make the real cash. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3565
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 22:41:00 -
[559] - Quote
To counter an argument before it's made: it is indeed possible to rat in a way that makes it extremely unlikely you'll get ganked: but that requires constant vigilance (or a bot). That means that the effort/isk ratio becomes highly skewed in favor of l4s - they may be the same low risk but the nullsec ratting is a pain in the ass. |
dontbanmebro
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
23
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:41:00 -
[560] - Quote
Rer Eirikr wrote:Ahh, see, I knew you could informative post :)
Hey, if more people were asking questions and less people making uninformed walls of text, I'm sure a lot of us who actually know a thing or two about the topic would be making more positive and informative posts.
Posting on GD is usually like trying to empty an ocean of self-righteous stupidity with a spoon. |
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Josef Djugashvilis
The Scope Gallente Federation
328
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:43:00 -
[561] - Quote
It is a mistake to see level 4 missions as an end in themselves rather than a means to an end.
I run level 4 missions to pay for pvp, which I fail at on a regular basis. You want fries with that? |
Lord Zim
863
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 22:44:00 -
[562] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:It is a mistake to see level 4 missions as an end in themselves rather than a means to an end.
I run level 4 missions to pay for pvp, which I fail at on a regular basis. As do a lot of people who "live" in nullsec. |
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
101
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 22:45:00 -
[563] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:It is a mistake to see level 4 missions as an end in themselves rather than a means to an end.
I run level 4 missions to pay for pvp, which I fail at on a regular basis. As do a lot of people who "live" in nullsec.
And now we've come to full circle of why L4s are a problem and/or why NullSec Industry really needs a boost. |
dontbanmebro
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 22:50:00 -
[564] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:It is a mistake to see level 4 missions as an end in themselves rather than a means to an end.
I run level 4 missions to pay for pvp, which I fail at on a regular basis.
The problem with the "make money in xsec to pvp in ysec" theory is that it inherently means less pvp in ysec. Furthermore, that pvp is less organic and more contrived, which in turn makes it less compelling and engaging. You want to create an "ecosystem" of conflict and cooperation that starts with people in space making money.
Funny enough, I actually think hisec incursions were great in theory. A bunch of people in fleets shooting red crosses is just an inch away from a bunch of people in fleets shooting each other, or shooting each other to get at more red crosses. I would love to see a balance to hisec income where incursions are a natural and sensible progression from level 4s, followed by another natural progression to low, null, and WHs. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
68
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 22:53:00 -
[565] - Quote
Rer Eirikr wrote:arcca jeth wrote:is the risk worth the reward in terms of comparison to L4 high sec's? I know there is already some of this in place but when it comes to the rewards, no experience to know better. It varies. I enjoyed doing Angel missions in Curse, but there would be times where I couldn't do anything do to either being heavily camped or outnumbered. When I could farm the Level 4 missions however, trading in LPs for Cynabal BPCs was pretty awesome. dontbanmebro wrote:The amazing stories that come out of nullsec are largely in spite of game mechanics, as opposed to a direct and engineered product of them. Ahh, see, I knew you could informative post :)
I was doing Guristas missions out in Venal for a while. But I just rolled an alt to do faction warfare, because it pays better for way less risk and gives me access to almost the same exact set of things to spend LP on.
So for those interested, nullsec does have missions. From what I've heard, the base pay is better than highsec missions. From my experience, the risk/reward is just barely worth it, and only if you can cash out the LP for high demand faction stuff. With the way faction warfare is going, you can't just pack a covops full of any old implants and expect massive profits. You have to pick and choose items unique to that LP store. |
Josef Djugashvilis
The Scope Gallente Federation
328
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 22:53:00 -
[566] - Quote
Level 4 missions are only a problem if one chooses to define them as such, and then put forward spurious arguments to support the thesis.
You want fries with that? |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
122
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:54:00 -
[567] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote: The current cult of shooting non-combatants in high sec provides easy kills for those who live and die by the billboard.
These are the factors I think have killed null sec play.
^ This. Make High-Sec more secure, and force all the lazy people that claim to be doing PVP to actually go and do PVP.
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Lord Zim
863
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 22:57:00 -
[568] - Quote
But if we buff null or lowsec, we get eve's economist slitting his wrist over the rampant inflation, and if we nerf L4s we get people like Malphilos saying that the idea something needs to be nerfed is a symptom of a base and mean intellect.
And of course there's the mission runners who'll ***** and moan about how their isk faucet started dribbling instead of spurting, and incursion runners who'll literally just move back to wormholes or L4s or whatever it was they did before incursions were A Thing.
So much for that tight-knit community feeling. |
Rer Eirikr
SniggWaffe
101
|
Posted - 2012.06.20 22:57:00 -
[569] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Level 4 missions are only a problem if one chooses to define them as such, and then put forward spurious arguments to support the thesis.
Then if I may be so bold, what would you consider to be the problem towards ISK generation in Null vs. HighSec, and the massive Industrial barrier? If you have a differing opinion by all means go for it dude, that's what a discussion is.
Lord Zim wrote:But if we buff null or lowsec, we get eve's economist slitting his wrist over the rampant inflation, and if we nerf L4s we get people like Malphilos saying that the idea something needs to be nerfed is a symptom of a base and mean intellect.
Couldn't we make the argument though that if Null had more Industrials then there might also be more explosions? EVE's inflation has been so crazy for so long I don't think its fair to wave that around as the "excuse for why we can't buff Null Sec Industry"
(And yes I know there was a twinge of sarcasm/cynicism in your post :) |
dontbanmebro
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2012.06.20 22:58:00 -
[570] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:Ban Bindy wrote: The current cult of shooting non-combatants in high sec provides easy kills for those who live and die by the billboard.
These are the factors I think have killed null sec play.
^ This. Make High-Sec more secure, and force all the lazy people that claim to be doing PVP to actually go and do PVP.
Hey, great, a double quote of why you will never get constructive debate on here.
Honestly, if people want real constructive debate, go to kugutsumen and open a thread in the "serious discussion" subforum. It may be slower, but you'll get very, very informed and constructive posts from people of all secs.
GD is for the culture war between idiots and not-idiots. |
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