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Trvaeler
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Posted - 2009.12.19 19:10:00 -
[1]
I can have a carrier do 1875dps with 15 Firbolgs and cap stable rep close to 4000dps, along with having about 1,300,000 HP .. all with cheap T2 mods. (And I'm sure there are way better fits out there).
If I swap 1 drone control unit for a triage module, I can get 16,000dps cap stable.
I know everyone says everybody and their grandmother wants a carrier kill, but at 16,000dps, wouldn't that take like 16+ BS just to compensate for the repping? Then they'd need to chew through over 1M HP
Even without the triage, 4000dps + 1M EHP, while doing 1875 DPS against cruiser sized ships and above (could deploy 15 light or medium drones too for frigs). Seems to me like:
1) It would take a very large gang to pop me 2) I would almost certainly pop a fair amount of them before they got me
So far, I've only jumped it with an alt providing the cyno in a t1 frig (but have jumped it many many times) and I always expect to lose the cyno alt's ship due to 10 minute timer ... but even in systems with 10+ peeps, nobody ever comes to pop the cyno alt in a frigate!
I've asked in local a few times why no one's coming and the response is always something like : "Yeah right, I'm going to show up over there and you'll hotdrop a bunch of carriers on us". LOL
For less than 400M with insurance, doesn't seem so bad to me (t3 ships cost WAY more), even solo .. A carrier reps more and does more DPS than most BS, why do people keep saying they are only good for fleet support? Clearly, they out DPS and out tank almost any BS.
Let the flames begin
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Elsa Nietzsche
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Posted - 2009.12.19 19:22:00 -
[2]
this is probably troll bate but i'll bite. some people play more ballsy than others. if you want to run around in a carrier, more power to you. and you're right, a t3 or a marauder is a bigger loss than a t2 fit carrier. i guess it's all relative to how much you can afford to lose. i think everyone pushes other ships including t3s because they're all easier to get out fast than a carrier. even when you're aligned, a carrier takes a while to get into warp. and if you're warping to an orbital body, it's super easy for whoever is after you to follow you and tackle you.
so you come in here and you are making the argument that it's ok to run around in a capital. i'm all for that. but don't come in here and complain when it gets blown up. deal?
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.12.19 19:33:00 -
[3]
Carriers are limited in their ability to control the fight, because they're slow and cannot pursue a target out of system.
As such, the people who engage you are either stupid, or think they have the measure of you. 16000 dps sounds good, but it doesn't last forever - you run out of triage fuel. and they can reinforce.
The problem with it is that once you are pinned down, you've no exit options, and people _will_ bring up extra firepower for killing a carrier.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.12.19 19:53:00 -
[4]
Originally by: James Lyrus The problem with it is that once you are pinned down, you've no exit options, and people _will_ bring up extra firepower for killing a carrier.
This. We had a smug minnie camping a station in a carrier that our medium sized gang couldn't break before he deaggroed and docked up. So one of our members who had his own carrier in another station in system had a brave puni pilot get right next to the enemy carrier and then he warped right ontop of it.
Boiiiing!
79km later he quit traveling off the bump and we killed him with a bunch of bombers and battlecruisers. To say he was suprised would be a rather amusing understatement.
Originally by: Akita T We don't hate people like you, we look at you with mostly pity and a hint of disgust balled up in a big wad of "notto disu shi'tto agen".
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2009.12.19 20:53:00 -
[5]
They make much better support ships than they do combat ships. Fighter DPS is quite situational and really only shines on webbed BSes, any BS pilot can bring DPS to a gang, but the ability to put capital reps 70km+ on somebody, that's special.
Triage won't allow you to use drones. Not too sure if you realize that. You also will come in from your cyno at 25% cap or so. Not exactly perfect.
But all means, go ahead ahead and try it. People love capital kills mails, you'll attract quite the enemy gang if you drop into triage. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.19 21:04:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Trvaeler
Let the flames begin
You're right, we're all wrong, good luck with your unstoppable killing rampage.
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Trvaeler
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Posted - 2009.12.19 21:49:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Trvaeler
Let the flames begin
You're right, we're all wrong, good luck with your unstoppable killing rampage.
I just think some strategies and situations can change. I see 2 billion isk t3s on killboards daily. If someone is just looking for some action/kills, I really can't see the downside of using a carrier, even solo. (of course, expect to lose it, but I'd also expect a fun fight before losing it, and taking down SEVERAL ships while doing it).
I also fly T3s, and I could lose 3 carriers for the cost of 1 properly fitted t3. Wonder how much damage 2-3 carriers in a gang (no other ships just the 3) could do. 45 drones...wonder how long it would take 45 Sentry IIs to kill the best tanked BS ... :)
Wonder if they could kill 10+ BS before they had a chance to start chewing through the several million EHP the carriers would have... hmmmm
Seriously, what am I missing?? Is it seriously, just that you're likely to lose your carrier solo? That may have held water before when isk wasn't as easy to make, but not anymore I don't think.
I'd rather lose a carrier than a t3, much easier on the wallet, and I bet I could take down more ships with a carrier than with any t3
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Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
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Posted - 2009.12.19 21:59:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Mashie Saldana on 19/12/2009 22:03:11
Originally by: Trvaeler Wonder how much damage 2-3 carriers in a gang (no other ships just the 3) could do. 45 drones...wonder how long it would take 45 Sentry IIs to kill the best tanked BS ... :)
Now that is the way to do it, 3 max gank carriers, they will be unstoppable with their 3228DPS from 45 sentry drones.
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Tom Brady
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Posted - 2009.12.19 22:04:00 -
[9]
Tom Brady says your 16000 dps in Triage is false. I dare you to bring this setup to syndicate where Tom loves to roam when not winning super bowls. Cause triage = dps right? clearly you are not capable of solo'ing in a carrier since you dont even know how they function. Tom Brady has spoken his peace.
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Fulbert
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.19 22:19:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Fulbert on 19/12/2009 22:20:56 The answer is quite simple, five words to be exact : Everybody wants a capship killmail Five or six cruisers are enough to kill all your fighters and drones, then slowly ruin your tank while you're perma-scrambled, jammed and dampened to death.
but :
Quote: For less than 400M with insurance, doesn't seem so bad to me (t3 ships cost WAY more)
You forgot millions worth of fuel, drones and fighters, modules, large rigs, etc., that you'll either consume or lose if your ship is destroyed. You're right about T3, but nobody use them for solo PVP purposes, except some richmen who have fun while ganking people (meaning : by choosing their opponents, thanks to the Covert Reconfig. subsystems). Everybody wants a T3 killmail, too... -------------------------------- Fulbert. Miner - Industrialist |
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.12.19 22:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: James Lyrus The problem with it is that once you are pinned down, you've no exit options, and people _will_ bring up extra firepower for killing a carrier.
I don't really see how this is any different from people PvP'ing in expensive faction BS. In terms of loss you're far better off however.
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slightly sillydude
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Posted - 2009.12.19 22:52:00 -
[12]
You'll never be able to stop people from warping away. Your drones will all be killed by even a smallish gang. Your cap stable tank will quickly become non cap stable with a curse or two on you. It will take time but you will die to even a smallish gang and if they are good you won't kill any of them. That said there are no shortage of idiots in Eve and you might lay waste to an incompetant gang. You are right though about the insignificance of the loss though. Its a little annoying that ships as powerful as caps are basically chump change to a large portion of the players in eve. I killed an Ishtar the other day that was easily worth 400million and the guy didn't seem to give a crap.
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Baneken
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.19 22:56:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Fulbert Edited by: Fulbert on 19/12/2009 22:20:56 The answer is quite simple, five words to be exact : Everybody wants a capship killmail Five or six cruisers are enough to kill all your fighters and drones, then slowly ruin your tank while you're perma-scrambled, jammed and dampened to death.
K, I admit I don't know much about capitals but last time I checked they (capitals) were immune to all forms of electronic warfare so how are you going to damp, let alone ECM or scram it in the first place ?
Bubble works I guess or does it ?
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2009.12.19 22:59:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Baneken
Originally by: Fulbert Edited by: Fulbert on 19/12/2009 22:20:56 The answer is quite simple, five words to be exact : Everybody wants a capship killmail Five or six cruisers are enough to kill all your fighters and drones, then slowly ruin your tank while you're perma-scrambled, jammed and dampened to death.
K, I admit I don't know much about capitals but last time I checked they (capitals) were immune to all forms of electronic warfare so how are you going to damp, let alone ECM or scram it in the first place ?
Bubble works I guess or does it ?
You're thinking of supercaps. Carriers are vulnerable to all of that stuff when outside triage (and in it they're screwed for the reasons given by others above) AFAIK bubbles don't work (?) but the focused warp disruption script does.
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Trvaeler
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Posted - 2009.12.19 23:22:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Trvaeler on 19/12/2009 23:25:14 hmmm okay so a few questions;
1) With a carrier's max speed of ~90km/s but with it's huge mass, how difficult would it be to 'bump' it away from docking range (if the carrier is going full speed towards a station)? ie; would 1 BS be able to do it? Would a BC, a cruiser?
2) Does setting drones to aggressive not work in a carrier? ie; drones will attack whomever attacks me, jammed or not
3) Do fighters not follow ships into warp? ie; 15 fighters on a cruiser wouldn't kill it in time for it to a) align and warp, and b, warp all the way to a gate and jump?
tracking on fighters seems to be better than medium blasters...so not sure why they would have trouble hitting a cruiser? ... 1800+DPS ...wouldn't that take like 12 seconds to finish off a cruiser with 20k EHP?
4) 1-2 ships with neuts is enough to kill capacitor on a capital ship?? Ouch
And I understand the no drones, moving etc in siege mode, what I meant was if my 4k dps tank isn't holding, I can get into siege mode as a last resort while I call on my alliance mates for backup. 16k DPS tank would take a large fleet to overcome no?
40 cruisers each doing 400DPS wouldn't even be enough to start chewing at the >1M EHP..
Or 20 BS doing 800dps...same thing...
Would take lots of ships... even if I had zero repping, it would take 2 ships each doing 500 DPS at least a half hour to finish it off... it's quicker and easier to destroy a small POS!
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Sumelar
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Posted - 2009.12.19 23:30:00 -
[16]
You don't need a BS to bump it, an Interceptor will do it just fine. A well flown one will keep you from warping away too.
And it's been said, but your triage numbers are meaningless. Anyone that attacks you is going to have more ammo than you have fuel, and since you're immobile for the entire duration, most of them will just warp out until it's almost done, then come back to re-point when it's over, and kill you then.
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Dursun Idris
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Posted - 2009.12.19 23:51:00 -
[17]
They are slow, easy to point, and when you got stuck others will drawn to you like vultures to a carcass.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.12.19 23:52:00 -
[18]
You are misinformed re: carriers.
Any decent 10-15 man mixed HAC/Recon gang can take you down...and more than likely won't take any losses.
Especially if said small gang includes a Curse or two and possibly a Scimitar.
But knock yourself out
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Spaztick
Terminal Impact Kairakau
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Posted - 2009.12.20 00:01:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Originally by: Baneken
Originally by: Fulbert Edited by: Fulbert on 19/12/2009 22:20:56 The answer is quite simple, five words to be exact : Everybody wants a capship killmail Five or six cruisers are enough to kill all your fighters and drones, then slowly ruin your tank while you're perma-scrambled, jammed and dampened to death.
K, I admit I don't know much about capitals but last time I checked they (capitals) were immune to all forms of electronic warfare so how are you going to damp, let alone ECM or scram it in the first place ?
Bubble works I guess or does it ?
You're thinking of supercaps. Carriers are vulnerable to all of that stuff when outside triage (and in it they're screwed for the reasons given by others above) AFAIK bubbles don't work (?) but the focused warp disruption script does.
Bubbles do work, but nobody drops them because they're just targeted and blown up before they can even be deployed, so people only use HICs or interdictor probe bubbles.
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Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2009.12.20 00:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Trvaeler Seriously, what am I missing??
The main thing you seem to be missing is that there are quite a few corps/alliances out there who will drop their entire cap fleet on a single carrier just for the lolz. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Benco97
Gallente Shadow Veil Industrial
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Posted - 2009.12.20 00:38:00 -
[21]
Solo dreads are much better ______________________________________________
Originally by: P'uck
You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
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Michel Licari
Gallente Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2009.12.20 01:03:00 -
[22]
Close EFT.
Now think about what your proposing.
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Tellenta
Gallente Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.12.20 01:04:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Trvaeler
1) It would take a very large gang to pop me 2) I would almost certainly pop a fair amount of them before they got me
1) mostly wrong 2) also mostly wrong.
If you play docking games with your carrier it is just a matter of time until the person that plays with your carrier at station will give you the 60 seconds or less death experience. solo in triage just means it might take a little longer to kill you (maybe). By all means solo in your carrier killboards everywhere are littered with killmails from people who EFT warriored their carrier and recieved a harsh lesson.
Of course I could be talking out my ass, you can be the judge of that.
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Trvaeler
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Posted - 2009.12.20 01:08:00 -
[24]
Got it, and thanks for the replies, exactly what I was looking for.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.20 01:12:00 -
[25]
Right. Now recalculate your stats for a situation where you have no cap, where your fighters die as soon as they're launched, and when there's, say, a dread or two pounding on you…
…because that's a relatively kind and easy scenario. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Trvaeler
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Posted - 2009.12.20 01:23:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tippia Right. Now recalculate your stats for a situation where you have no cap, where your fighters die as soon as they're launched, and when there's, say, a dread or two pounding on youà
àbecause that's a relatively kind and easy scenario.
Right, I'll be keeping it at our POS and assigning its fighters to my alt. A few days before insurance runs out, I'll go find a system with a few gate campers, jump them and die horribly, hopefully taking some down with me ;P
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Hellfury Resurrected
Incura HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2009.12.20 01:36:00 -
[27]
You should try flying with these guys. They also enjoy not being able to kill anything in their 94 m/s capitals while attracting unwanted attention. -------------------------------------------
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eXtas
NibbleTek
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Posted - 2009.12.20 01:58:00 -
[28]
if you plan to use the carrier for solo pvp dont fit it for tank.. if you cant kill your target fast and get away you will die to neuts and numbers and ecm..
so you need some neuts to cap out fast ships, some takle atleast a disruptor, eccm and maybe a sensorbooster to lock anything.. allso you might not want to have any fighters at all since they will be most expencive part of the ship and heavy drones work beter mostly.
so you wont be left with a lot of tank with some cpr in lows to make up for all mid slots beeing used.
but sure you can kill ppl not expecting it and not having good rr (a single logistic ship will tank all damage you do)
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Eseay
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Posted - 2009.12.20 02:27:00 -
[29]
no one agresses a carrier if they can't kill it.
a lone carrier can't tackle anything long enough to kill it.
if you get agressed by a gang, they will kill you or make you dock before you can kill any of them.
carriers are SUPPORT ships, not solo ships. its the way they are designed.
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SuperNova221
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Posted - 2009.12.20 03:26:00 -
[30]
It's unknown exactly how it works, but it has been well documented and recorded under laboratory conditions and revealed as fact, that any capital ship in low-sec sec will instantly be brought to the attention of all pirates within a 5 jump radius.
With jump freighters however, the range increases to 8 jumps and everybody goes feral, not just the pirates.
For this reason, I would advise against flying it solo. In low-sec at least.
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