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DenShou
Wolves of Fenrir High Guard Council
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Posted - 2010.01.01 00:44:00 -
[61]
Supported ~ #### Faith can move mountains.... of Inventory - Rule #104 Ferengi Rules of Acquisition |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.01 12:42:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 01/01/2010 12:44:09
Originally by: Hamano Walker
Originally by: Darax Thulain
Its important to note that I have at least 15 agents per account, and the only way I am getting a profit out of this atm since I am using gtc to fund accts, is to let them go inactive and claim at a later date.
-Darax
Don't take this as a personal attack, but I think that perfectly proves the point that there is a problem.
Look it he other way:
- an account totally dedicated to gathering datacores (6 of the best agents for each character) will generate a little more than 1.000 datacores/month (without running missions). Creating the account will require several months as you need the skills at 5 (including 2 millions SP for research project management at 5) and standing with 2 corporation at least.
- average 30 day licence in my part of EVE 260 millions.
- so average price for datacores to get even on one account cost gathering datacores 260.000 and the account owner isn't getting anything back for the 6 or more months spent creating the characters. A average price above 300K would be more credible and I still doubt it would entice people to create datacore gathering accounts.
- looking the market prices for datacores I would say the average seem to be around 200K.
- so changing this would increase the cost of inventing by at least 30%.
For me it would be an advantage as all my accounts are constantly subscribed, but it would be a bad blow for inventors.
If the goal is higher cost T2, go for it.
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Nagapito
The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.01.01 16:22:00 -
[63]
Supported
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.01 17:40:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
If the goal is higher cost T2, go for it.
Consider it a more accurate price for T2 equipment. --Vel
In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d. |
Burnharder
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Posted - 2010.01.01 21:25:00 -
[65]
I don't support this, as I didn't support removal of ghost training either. For people like me, who subscribe for a while and then go do something else (like go outside), the thought that 6 months down the line I've trained a new skill to level 5, or earned some cash from datacore accumulation is motivating to subscribe again.
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Ruziel
Twilight Military Industrial Complex
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Posted - 2010.01.01 22:07:00 -
[66]
I endorse this product and or message.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.01.01 22:50:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
If the goal is higher cost T2, go for it.
The same argument could have been made by the POS exploiters...
You're assuming that the price of moon minerals wouldn't fall slightly to compensate.
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Hera Ominae
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Posted - 2010.01.01 22:58:00 -
[68]
Death to GHOSTS
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.01 23:14:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Burnharder I don't support this, as I didn't support removal of ghost training either. For people like me, who subscribe for a while and then go do something else (like go outside), the thought that 6 months down the line I've trained a new skill to level 5, or earned some cash from datacore accumulation is motivating to subscribe again.
IOW, you want to get stuff with no effort on your part. I mean that's fine, but let's call it what it is. "I don't want you to nerf my free stuff!"
--Vel
In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d. |
Hroya
TerraNovae
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Posted - 2010.01.01 23:51:00 -
[70]
No active accaunt, no connection what so ever to the game.
And even if the T2 prices would go up, so what ? If things done by Active accaunts get out of hand CCP will fix it with a patch or expansion.
Defending income on inactive accaunts by saying it's been like that since 2003, well so was ghost training.
You are NOT supporting the game with an inactive accaunt so please kindly shut the hell up.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.02 00:12:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Venkul Mul
If the goal is higher cost T2, go for it.
The same argument could have been made by the POS exploiters...
You're assuming that the price of moon minerals wouldn't fall slightly to compensate.
Beside the totally unrelated first row (short on valid arguments?), why the moon mineral price should fall if datacores prices go up?
Unless demand fall there is no reason for the moon minerals price to fall and while an increase in invention cost will probably reduce the relative profit for inventors an increase of some million in the finished product will change little for the T2 ship market and the largest part of T2 components is used in ship production.
If this change was implemented the ballet between datacore prices and PLEX prices would be interesting to observe.
Still indifferent to the final outcome. |
Bhattran
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Posted - 2010.01.02 00:20:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Bhattran on 02/01/2010 00:20:34
Originally by: Bagehi Since the inception of the game, the longer you remain in the game, the more metagaming tricks you learn. The metagaming tricks are, more than anything else, why older players have fat passive income, while newer players struggle.
It is also why (I think) newer players get frustrated by the game. If players make it long enough in the game to get into corps/alliances, they eventually ask "how do you make so much money?" The answer is usually met with stunned silence or complaints about how it breaks the game.
Whether it is 20 mining alts sucking on Veld AFK, or POS tricks that magically create moon mins, or inactive training characters to sell, or inactive research, and anything else... they really do not help the market as a whole as only a small portion of people are actually involved in these activities.
When income disparity comes from manipulating the game, not playing it, the game is broken.
Well put.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2010.01.02 01:42:00 -
[73]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
IOW, you want to get stuff with no effort on your part. I mean that's fine, but let's call it what it is. "I don't want you to nerf my free stuff!"
Well yes, but I gave you a motivation. At the end of the day it resolves into cash for CPP. The issue is this: is the cash from people like me > the cost of the plex ghost R&D buys? I would say it doesn't make any difference. People who ghost R&D for plex to fund a second or third account probably won't purchase the GTC any other way if ghost training was removed. On the other hand, people like me who return and pay for 3 accounts for 6 months with real ú may not reinstate their accounts if there's nothing to get vaguely excited about returning for.
None of us here know what the answer is. I'm guessing some accounts were lost due to ghost training being removed, i.e. people didn't return who would have if they'd have been sitting on the sofa, bored, watching TV one Sunday afternoon and suddenly remembered they had Carrier V to play with (not that it makes a difference of course, but you know what I mean). I suppose the ghost R&D thing is more "live", because people actually use it to fund their game-time, which isn't really the case for ghost training. So in a way I can easily see the case for ghost training being in, but ghost R&D being out is double edged.
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Carniflex
StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.01.02 11:23:00 -
[74]
I and my currently active 5 accounts that could vote do not support this idea. It is far too late for that action as I have invested way too mutch time grinding up all those accounts to R&D levels.
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yani dumyat
Minmatar Pixie Cats
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Posted - 2010.01.02 11:57:00 -
[75]
Edited by: yani dumyat on 02/01/2010 12:01:23
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Awesome Possum I am not supporting this, because I plan on skilling up all 3 slots on all 3 of my accounts to do exactly this, I then plan on purchasing 4 more accounts to skill all 3 slots up for this as well, I will then allow the 4 accounts to go inactive for 6 months at a time.
I absolutely, vehemently demand that CCP ignore this proposal and any other affecting ghost datacore mining.
I see what you did there. Not your best effort, tbh.
Best way to get them to fix something is to tell them not to.
So which of the pro datacore farming voices an alt of Awesome Possum? _________________________________________________ Lifeboat ----> + Human |
Golden Gnu
The Golden Gnu Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.02 11:57:00 -
[76]
_________________ Download is the meaning of life, upload is the meaning of intelligent life EVE.NiKR.NET - home of jEveAssets |
yani dumyat
Minmatar Pixie Cats
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Posted - 2010.01.02 13:04:00 -
[77]
Edited by: yani dumyat on 02/01/2010 13:06:40
My problem with the proposal is that it fails to differentiate between people who take breaks from the game and farmers/RMTers (real money traders). You can look at it as a balance between offering incentives for players to return to the game and preventing isk spammer.com from datacore farming for profit.
I'd love to see the introduction of a ghosting fee whereby you can pay a minimal charge (5 euros or thereabouts) to have all passive activities continue while you are not playing the game. This would be a better response than the knee jerk 'remove all ghosting' ideas in this thread because:
- The RL cost would outweigh the isk benefits for farmers.
- Players who take breaks from eve can purchase an incentive to return.
- You are still paying to play but remove the opposite scenario whereby if i want to continue ghost activities while abroad for work then i have to pay full price without having access to the game.
The nature of EVE requires people to play the game for years to build up their character, so from a customer retention point of view it makes sense to give people a reason to return when they want to take a break for a few months.
Most players experience the burnout of CTAs at silly o'clock in the morning or simply get bored of hauling pos fuel etc and one of the smartest things about eve was the way it let you step away from the game but left an incentive to return once your appetite for pod goo had returned.
By all means remove ghosting from the game but please be smart about it rather than destroying the unique way eve lets us dip in and out of the game world, even when we have real lives to lead.
_________________________________________________ Lifeboat ----> + Human |
Dungheap
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.01.02 16:00:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Vod**** Edited by: Vod**** on 22/12/2009 09:24:09 Problem summary: Inactive (unpaid) accounts continue to accumulate agent rewards, i.e. datacores. This had a similar issue (ghost training) which was resolved a few years back.
what of blueprint research, capital construction jobs, market orders, and contracts. do these not continue and earn income for an inactive account, and directly compete with players who are still active?
can't support something which seems only to the benfit of some players, like yourself, who seek to eliminate their competition in the name of fairness.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.01.02 18:35:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 02/01/2010 18:36:30
Originally by: Dungheap
Originally by: Vod**** Edited by: Vod**** on 22/12/2009 09:24:09 Problem summary: Inactive (unpaid) accounts continue to accumulate agent rewards, i.e. datacores. This had a similar issue (ghost training) which was resolved a few years back.
what of blueprint research, capital construction jobs, market orders, and contracts. do these not continue and earn income for an inactive account, and directly compete with players who are still active?
can't support something which seems only to the benfit of some players, like yourself, who seek to eliminate their competition in the name of fairness.
The answer to that should be obvious.
IF your not paying and your account goes inactive... aside from obvious if not potential cool down (like 24 hours or something) EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING should be suspended. (And yes I know its not as simple as that but the point is still valid)
It doesn't make sense nor is it fair to us who pay for our accounts (even with plex's) that we should suffer from a damned ghost exploitation.
I don't care if you use it as a tool or if your taking a break... we can't take breaks from paying our bills... neither should you.
Don't like it? tough... no one said EVE was easy to begin with... put your back into it and learn what hard work is for a change... you can prob afford to buy plex's for all the business you do anyway. (You being said ghost/farmers and not to anyone directly in this proposal) ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Luchka
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Posted - 2010.01.02 21:24:00 -
[80]
support fully
....inactive acounts should have all "activities" suspended
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.02 21:45:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Dungheap
Originally by: Vod**** Edited by: Vod**** on 22/12/2009 09:24:09 Problem summary: Inactive (unpaid) accounts continue to accumulate agent rewards, i.e. datacores. This had a similar issue (ghost training) which was resolved a few years back.
what of blueprint research, capital construction jobs, market orders, and contracts. do these not continue and earn income for an inactive account, and directly compete with players who are still active?
can't support something which seems only to the benfit of some players, like yourself, who seek to eliminate their competition in the name of fairness.
I think you're missing the point. While the initial proposal was only for ghost datacore production, I, and several others here, have pushed the idea of stopping ALL activities from an inactive account.
For example when an account goes inactive: 1. All market orders are immediately expired. At the next downtime, the goods from those orders are returned to the character's hangar as normal with expired orders. 2. All blueprint research jobs are canceled. The blueprint is thus returned to the hangar it started in, and the slot will free up on its own, as per normal when a job is cancelled.
These are just some examples, but the idea that these activities MUST continue for some reason is ludicrous, especially when the game already has logic to cancel the activities in an orderly fashion. --Vel
In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d. |
Charlotte Smith
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Posted - 2010.01.03 09:22:00 -
[82]
I have a moral problem with this text:
Quote: we can't take breaks from paying our bills... neither should you.
That implies that when YOU cannot pay bills and therefor cannot play EVE, OTHER players should not be able to play EVE either.
While I agree with disabling Ghost Training, and I'ld agree with disabling Ghost Datacores, I will vote against the OP if that quote up here is the main issue.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.03 15:45:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Charlotte Smith I have a moral problem with this text:
Quote: we can't take breaks from paying our bills... neither should you.
That implies that when YOU cannot pay bills and therefor cannot play EVE, OTHER players should not be able to play EVE either.
While I agree with disabling Ghost Training, and I'ld agree with disabling Ghost Datacores, I will vote against the OP if that quote up here is the main issue.
I think you're misunderstanding Drake. He's not that big a jerk. (Luvs ya Drake!)
I think what he emans is that if you're not playing the game, and therefore not paying for it, you shouldn't get a benefit from it, the same as if you don't pay your electric bill, you don't get the benefit of having electricity. --Vel
Brand new year, same old attitude. |
Perrigrene
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Posted - 2010.01.03 15:54:00 -
[84]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Dungheap
Originally by: Vod**** Edited by: Vod**** on 22/12/2009 09:24:09 Problem summary: Inactive (unpaid) accounts continue to accumulate agent rewards, i.e. datacores. This had a similar issue (ghost training) which was resolved a few years back.
what of blueprint research, capital construction jobs, market orders, and contracts. do these not continue and earn income for an inactive account, and directly compete with players who are still active?
can't support something which seems only to the benfit of some players, like yourself, who seek to eliminate their competition in the name of fairness.
I think you're missing the point. While the initial proposal was only for ghost datacore production, I, and several others here, have pushed the idea of stopping ALL activities from an inactive account.
For example when an account goes inactive: 1. All market orders are immediately expired. At the next downtime, the goods from those orders are returned to the character's hangar as normal with expired orders. 2. All blueprint research jobs are canceled. The blueprint is thus returned to the hangar it started in, and the slot will free up on its own, as per normal when a job is cancelled.
These are just some examples, but the idea that these activities MUST continue for some reason is ludicrous, especially when the game already has logic to cancel the activities in an orderly fashion.
Not the issue being discussed, and the problem with this is if you forget to change payment methods or otherwise fund your account be it a day or several before you can pay CCP, everything you had going on gets 'canceled'. Make a mistake, get wrapped up in real life issues and congratulations we cancelled all your orders, research, manufacturing etc, welcome back. To me that is stupid, you pay for market orders, you pay for research/manufacturing jobs anything you pay for should continue until completion or the account is removed by CCP, not ludicrous at all to me.
Research Points are not something you pay for directly like any of the above, you train some skills build up standing and say let's work on something, then you are given RP throughout the day over and over till you cash them in or stop your research with the agent. While I disagree with the removal of Ghost training(on principle) it is done, getting something for nothing (direct pay) is what CCP said they don't offer (ninja edited but still) so removing the collection of RP on inactive accounts when you turn them back on is a logical step along with the Ghost Training nerf.
I support this idea because it works with the system of no gain for no pay on inactive accounts, which is what RP collection and skill progress on unpaid accounts are, market orders and research are paid for with isk and set to end by their nature.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.01.03 18:53:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 03/01/2010 18:53:54
Originally by: Charlotte Smith I have a moral problem with this text:
Quote: we can't take breaks from paying our bills... neither should you.
That implies that when YOU cannot pay bills and therefor cannot play EVE, OTHER players should not be able to play EVE either.
While I agree with disabling Ghost Training, and I'ld agree with disabling Ghost Datacores, I will vote against the OP if that quote up here is the main issue.
Yes... lets take my words out of context.
De -
Quote: I think you're misunderstanding Drake. He's not that big a jerk. (Luvs ya Drake!Razz) I think what he emans is that if you're not playing the game, and therefore not paying for it, you shouldn't get a benefit from it, the same as if you don't pay your electric bill, you don't get the benefit of having electricity.
THAT... is what I'm getting at. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Charlotte Smith
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Posted - 2010.01.03 19:08:00 -
[86]
Drake, that wasn't put out of context, just the way of wording got me annoyed. The way De'Veldrin puts it, I understand.
But still some replies indicate that 'getting' 6 high-level R&D agents is 'easy'.
'You only need standings' That means grinding missions for specific R&D Corporations. Each top Level 4 R&D Agent requires a standing of 6.90.
The top 6 Level 4 R&D Agents are from:
Mastance Seillaerdt - Roden Shipyards - Gallente Ya Alhunaya - Ishukone Corporation - Caldari Aldilbet Sotisarin - Boundless Creation - Minmatar Bummiri Nadaneh - Carthum Conglomerate - Amarr Sitaleere Beene - Duvolle Laboratories - Gallente Panakiya Nakkilen - Lai Dai Corporation - Caldari
Not to mention all those agents are far from each other, but alas, auto-pilot ftw. (If anyone dares with datacores in its cargohold)
'You only need some Science skills' To absolutly maximize output You need:
Research 5 Science 5 Laboratory Operation level 5 Research Project Management level 5 Mechanical Engineering level 5 Molecular Engineering level 5 Nanite Engineering level 5 (Any other science skill you want Datacores from to level 5, adding another 20 days of training)
Depending on attributes and implants, that means 150 to 200 days of training.
Again I agree with the argument 'Inactive should disable everything'.
But I cannot get rid of the (feeling) underlaying accusation from newbie players toward players who DID train all those skills, benefiting from getting Research Points, whatever those accounts are active or inactive.
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Meno Theaetetus
Wildly Inappropriate Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.01.04 06:26:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Meno Theaetetus on 04/01/2010 06:26:44 Edited by: Meno Theaetetus on 04/01/2010 06:25:49 This is a no-brainer, if your account is not active then you should not be able to interact with or benefit from eve in any way.
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Battleangel Libby
Stellar Solutions Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.04 13:50:00 -
[88]
support fully
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Empire Dweller
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2010.01.04 17:40:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Charlotte Smith Drake, that wasn't put out of context, just the way of wording got me annoyed. The way De'Veldrin puts it, I understand.
But still some replies indicate that 'getting' 6 high-level R&D agents is 'easy'.
'You only need standings' That means grinding missions for specific R&D Corporations. Each top Level 4 R&D Agent requires a standing of 6.90.
The top 6 Level 4 R&D Agents are from:
Mastance Seillaerdt - Roden Shipyards - Gallente Ya Alhunaya - Ishukone Corporation - Caldari Aldilbet Sotisarin - Boundless Creation - Minmatar Bummiri Nadaneh - Carthum Conglomerate - Amarr Sitaleere Beene - Duvolle Laboratories - Gallente Panakiya Nakkilen - Lai Dai Corporation - Caldari
Not to mention all those agents are far from each other, but alas, auto-pilot ftw. (If anyone dares with datacores in its cargohold)
'You only need some Science skills' To absolutly maximize output You need:
Research 5 Science 5 Laboratory Operation level 5 Research Project Management level 5 Mechanical Engineering level 5 Molecular Engineering level 5 Nanite Engineering level 5 (Any other science skill you want Datacores from to level 5, adding another 20 days of training)
Depending on attributes and implants, that means 150 to 200 days of training.
Again I agree with the argument 'Inactive should disable everything'.
But I cannot get rid of the (feeling) underlaying accusation from newbie players toward players who DID train all those skills, benefiting from getting Research Points, whatever those accounts are active or inactive.
You forgot the skill negotiations...
Also your 150-200 days is a bit much- you dont need any but the first three skills to lvl 5- the rest can be at lvl 4 and you will get "close enough" to the max possible. Takes about a month on a new account
None of this is relevant though. The question is should research points accumulate when an account is inactive.
Ill go one step further and say research points should be reset to zero and not advance when an account is inactive.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.04 18:32:00 -
[90]
Edited by: De''Veldrin on 04/01/2010 18:32:23
Originally by: Empire Dweller
Ill go one step further and say research points should be reset to zero...when an account is inactive.
I think that's going too far. You did, after all, accumulate the RP's with an active account. That would be like saying if your acount goes inactive we zero out your ISK. --Vel
Brand new year, same old attitude. |
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