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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2009.12.25 12:44:00 -
[1]
Issue:
If you join a fleet with armour bonuses, they are applied instantly, adding xx % to your armour.
If you join a fleet with shield bonuses, they are *NOT* applied instantly, instead your total shield is increased but the amount is shown as 'damage', requiring you to wait for a long time for it to passively recharge, or to boost it / have it boosted to max before you can enjoy the full bonus.
Even worse, this happens every time you change sessions (undock, jump system, jump cyno, etc.)
Proposal:
Make shield bonuses apply instantly, like armour. If you have already taken damage, its easy to not make it exploitable by making new shield % == old shield %, or one of many other ways.
- Sok.
Evelopedia link
When will TQ hit the 100K PCU mark? Place a bet! |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.25 14:48:00 -
[2]
Shield fleet bonus increase total shields and so they increase regeneration rate, something that armor bonuses don't do.
If CCP find a way to remove that added bonus ok, if it stay, no.
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Helen Highwater
Gallente Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.25 14:56:00 -
[3]
What Venkul Mul said above. You're still getting a bonus from the moment they start to apply.
Not supported as it's clear you haven't thought this through. --------------------------------------------------------------
Let's not and say we did. |
Sokratesz
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Posted - 2009.12.25 16:37:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 25/12/2009 16:44:01
Originally by: Helen Highwater What Venkul Mul said above. You're still getting a bonus from the moment they start to apply.
Not supported as it's clear you haven't thought this through.
You say that on a lot of things.
What is the bonus? a very small increase in recharge rate? Hardly impressive, except maybe on drakes and nighthawks..
On battleships it can take up to 10 minutes for the shields to passively recharge and thus effectively be the full bonus. On capitals, it can take hours.
When will TQ hit the 100K PCU mark? Place a bet! |
Bunnehrawr Rawr
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Posted - 2009.12.25 16:46:00 -
[5]
I support this fully, mainly as it annoys me when i have a lil red blip on my hud <,<
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Red Thunder
tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.12.25 16:48:00 -
[6]
Supported :)
And to the people that say the recharge rate bonus is good enough, it really is stupidly tiny.....the real bonus you need is that bit extra ehp to keep your fleet going for longer
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Matroska
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.12.25 16:54:00 -
[7]
This makes perfect sense, I don't understand you guys shooting it down.
Have you ever been in a fleet with bonuses on??
Supported.
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Helen Highwater
Gallente Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.25 16:55:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Helen Highwater What Venkul Mul said above. You're still getting a bonus from the moment they start to apply.
Not supported as it's clear you haven't thought this through.
You say that on a lot of things.
What is the bonus? a very small increase in recharge rate? Hardly impressive, except maybe on drakes and nighthawks..
If I say that on a lot of things it's probably because there are a lot of badly thought out ideas floated.
Let me explain how shield tanking works as you apparently don't know:
Shields regen naturally over time. Each ship has a shield amount and a recharge time. The recharge time to full is constant regardless of the actual size of the shields. So, if you boost your shield amount then you are also increasing the amount recharged per second. That's not a trivial bonus on any ship that shield tanks.
Armour by contrast doesn't regen naturally which is why the bonus amount from gang bonuses is applied immediately - otherwise it would be useless to any ship that didn't have an armour repper fitted and all ships would have to waste some cap repairing themselves to full every time the session changed. --------------------------------------------------------------
Let's not and say we did. |
Fortune Mitford
tr0pa de elite
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Posted - 2009.12.25 16:56:00 -
[9]
signed
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beor oranes
The Capitalist Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.12.25 16:57:00 -
[10]
Fully supported as I am well skilled commandship pilot it is really annoying!!
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Helen Highwater
Gallente Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:00:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Red Thunder Supported :)
And to the people that say the recharge rate bonus is good enough, it really is stupidly tiny.....the real bonus you need is that bit extra ehp to keep your fleet going for longer
You get the recharge bonus and the EHP buff. You're still getting the bonus to your max shields regardless.
Seriously, do you guys even play the game? --------------------------------------------------------------
Let's not and say we did. |
M Blanc
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:37:00 -
[12]
Supported.
Alternatively, I guess you could make armor gang bonuses require 40+ seconds to take effect...
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:39:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 25/12/2009 17:41:02
Originally by: Helen Highwater
Originally by: Red Thunder Supported :)
And to the people that say the recharge rate bonus is good enough, it really is stupidly tiny.....the real bonus you need is that bit extra ehp to keep your fleet going for longer
You get the recharge bonus and the EHP buff. You're still getting the bonus to your max shields regardless.
Seriously, do you guys even play the game?
Now now, get off your high horse.
I know my share about shield tanks, thank you very much, and to 99% of pvp fits, recharge is an unimportant factor, and the bonus in that area does nothing to aid them. Basically, armour ships are 37.5% better off right off the bat unless the shield ships have the ability to regen it (which takes ages), or rep it up (which takes loads of cap).
Originally by: Helen Highwater That's not a trivial bonus on any ship that shield tanks.
Yes, it very much is trivial.
When will TQ hit the 100K PCU mark? Place a bet! |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:47:00 -
[14]
hm ... not sure it is possible code wise ... but how about the shield amount bonus also increases the shield recharge time by a few percent. then you don't boost passive shield tanks too much and still get your instant buffer.
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Hugo Lordmagnus
Caldari Vexillari
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Posted - 2009.12.25 17:57:00 -
[15]
This was fun to think through; I think it's an excellent point for discussion and I nearly gave it a full support. However, after looking at the functions, I think it's actually a good mechanic as is.
TL;DR: I think the current function is fair, as shield tanks can reap the benefits quickly by repping either passive or active, while for armor tanks, it doesn't really matter.
As a shield tank, I've always rapidly filled the bonus HP; either by one quick shot from a booster on an active tank or from the sheer rapid recharge on a passive tank.
For my fleet mates who armor-tank the bonus does take an exceptionally long time to fill, which severely negates its usefulness. At first glance, this seems unfair, as I immediately reap the benefits of an added armor-HP increase, while they get almost nothing from the shield-HP increase.
However, since all of my defenses are focused into shields, when I hit armor, my tank is broken and I'm on the way out. An armor bonus is marginal and has never determined the outcome of a battle. Likewise, my fleet mates don't gain significant benefit from the added shield HP--even if someone remote reps it to full. When they come under fire, the shields are gone within seconds and they've started armor-repping.
Thus, I think the way it functions currently is fair. Shield tanks are able to reap the benefits despite that the mechanic adds the HP unfilled, and armor tanks don't need it (imo). Hull tanks... well, they're having other issues.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2009.12.25 18:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus
Thus, I think the way it functions currently is fair. Shield tanks are able to reap the benefits despite that the mechanic adds the HP unfilled, and armor tanks don't need it (imo). Hull tanks... well, they're having other issues.
No they can't, unless given a lot of time to recharge shields.
Originally by: darius mclever hm ... not sure it is possible code wise ... but how about the shield amount bonus also increases the shield recharge time by a few percent. then you don't boost passive shield tanks too much and still get your instant buffer.
That would be a very fair compromise.
When will TQ hit the 100K PCU mark? Place a bet! |
Hugo Lordmagnus
Caldari Vexillari
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Posted - 2009.12.25 19:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus
Thus, I think the way it functions currently is fair. Shield tanks are able to reap the benefits despite that the mechanic adds the HP unfilled, and armor tanks don't need it (imo). Hull tanks... well, they're having other issues.
No they can't, unless given a lot of time to recharge shields.
As I said in my previous post, in my experience as a shield tank (sub-capital), I've always been able to fill bonus HP quickly. On an active tank, it only takes one activation of a booster; on a passive tank (i.e. the Drake), the recharge rate is still fast enough near 100% capacity to quickly fill the HP.
Has your experience proven different?
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Hugo Lordmagnus
Vexillari
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Posted - 2009.12.25 19:35:00 -
[18]
it's hit me that I'm looking at this from primarily a mission runner's perspective--so I'm always tanked to self-repair. A buffered shield tank fit for PvP with no active recharge and no reduction on recharge rate would have to wait it out as you say.
I can see how that severely hampers the effectiveness of the buff; especially since it's reapplied every time you jump systems. Looking at it that way, I'd support having it auto-fill the HP.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2009.12.25 19:48:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus
Thus, I think the way it functions currently is fair. Shield tanks are able to reap the benefits despite that the mechanic adds the HP unfilled, and armor tanks don't need it (imo). Hull tanks... well, they're having other issues.
No they can't, unless given a lot of time to recharge shields.
As I said in my previous post, in my experience as a shield tank (sub-capital), I've always been able to fill bonus HP quickly. On an active tank, it only takes one activation of a booster; on a passive tank (i.e. the Drake), the recharge rate is still fast enough near 100% capacity to quickly fill the HP.
Has your experience proven different?
Shield buffered HACS and BS will usually not have a shieldbooster so they rely on passive recharge only. On capitals, the shield amount boosted is negligeble compared to the total HP so that it doesn't work for them either.
When will TQ hit the 100K PCU mark? Place a bet! |
Helen Highwater
Gallente Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.25 20:12:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Shield buffered HACS and BS will usually not have a shieldbooster so they rely on passive recharge only. On capitals, the shield amount boosted is negligeble compared to the total HP so that it doesn't work for them either.
However buffer tanks by definiton do better from the enhanced regen rate as that's the core of their defence. ALso buffer tanks and very high EHP ships like capitals are the least likely to need that instant 10/15% shield bonus as they are very unlikely to be alpha'd. The longer they tank for, the less important that shield bonus becomes and the more important the regen bonus is. By contrast the fast recharging shield tankers who rely on recharge rate and have a small enough shield buffer that a bonus is the difference between being alpha'd and surviving long enough to escape or get repped will regen that bonus very fast and profit from it almost immediately.
So again, it's an unnecessary change. --------------------------------------------------------------
Let's not and say we did. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.25 20:33:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Malcanis on 25/12/2009 20:33:43
Originally by: Venkul Mul Shield fleet bonus increase total shields and so they increase regeneration rate, something that armor bonuses don't do.
If CCP find a way to remove that added bonus ok, if it stay, no.
Shield regen rate is basically a non-issue in PvP. People tend to stay a long time in in session in PvE. I dont see what the problem is. Shields and armour are already balanced with respect to passive regen - That +15% bonus gives me a lot more extra hitpoints from a 1600mm RT than it does from an LSE II.
This especially applies to capital ships: the armour tankers get a big boost from gang bonuses; the shield tankers effectively get nothing.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.25 21:03:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Helen Highwater
Originally by: Sokratesz
Shield buffered HACS and BS will usually not have a shieldbooster so they rely on passive recharge only. On capitals, the shield amount boosted is negligeble compared to the total HP so that it doesn't work for them either.
However buffer tanks by definiton do better from the enhanced regen rate as that's the core of their defence.
No, a buffer tank works by having lots of EHP to start with; the regen rate is irrelevant. A passive tank, which is a very different thing, works on regen rate.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2009.12.25 21:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Helen Highwater
Originally by: Sokratesz
Shield buffered HACS and BS will usually not have a shieldbooster so they rely on passive recharge only. On capitals, the shield amount boosted is negligeble compared to the total HP so that it doesn't work for them either.
However buffer tanks by definiton do better from the enhanced regen rate as that's the core of their defence.
That's borderline trolling.
When will TQ hit the 100K PCU mark? Place a bet! |
Helen Highwater
Gallente Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.25 21:50:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Helen Highwater
Originally by: Sokratesz
Shield buffered HACS and BS will usually not have a shieldbooster so they rely on passive recharge only. On capitals, the shield amount boosted is negligeble compared to the total HP so that it doesn't work for them either.
However buffer tanks by definiton do better from the enhanced regen rate as that's the core of their defence.
That's borderline trolling.
Only if you don't understand the argument. --------------------------------------------------------------
Let's not and say we did. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.25 22:29:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Helen Highwater
Only if you don't understand the argument.
Edit: Herschel and I just had a long conversation in CSM Public. I guess I've not been too clear on how I've put my objections forwards. So let me clear it up.
The problem that needs fixing is really persistence of bonuses over different sessions, not so much the instant application as that has repercussions at the other end of the scale on passive tanks and smaller stuff. So, if the discussion is about keeping the bonus persistent across sessions so that shild tanking cap pilots aren't disadvantaged in hotdrops etc then fine, I can get behind that.
Hmm well you didn't make much effort to make the argument clear originally. I'd be quite happy for the bonuses to be persistent across sessions; you're correct in that this is the core of the problem.
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Aphrodite Skripalle
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Posted - 2009.12.25 22:47:00 -
[26]
/supported
I dont know and care much about big fleets. I just fly mostly in a 2 men fleet and my squad leader is a siege warfare specialist, with mindlink that gives quite a big boost on my shields. It takes me 2 cycles with a x-large shield booster to fill up the shield. If i dont do that the boost is pretty useless. And of course its depleting my cap significantly to fill up the shields. The annoying thing is, you have to do this every time you jump or dock.
so i sign this
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Helen Highwater
Gallente Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.25 22:57:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Malcanis
Hmm well you didn't make much effort to make the argument clear originally. I'd be quite happy for the bonuses to be persistent across sessions; you're correct in that this is the core of the problem.
In my defence I'm pretty sick at the moment. This means I'm both less clear and more crotchety than usual. Apologies to all if I've given offence.
The session persistence is the major issue that I see. I wouldn't like to see the original proposal implemented as I believe that would be a big boost to some types of shield tank (such as passive tanks) that don't really need it however I do think that the problem for large buffer tanks needs to be solved.
In my opinion this is an engineering issue for CCP to solve, the CSM should be pointing out the desired outcome (bonuses persisting across sessions) and not trying to engineer it themselves. --------------------------------------------------------------
Let's not and say we did. |
Sokratesz
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Posted - 2009.12.25 23:36:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Sokratesz on 25/12/2009 23:37:20 That would not be a solution, because bonuses are applied only when the person giving them is in local with you, which when changing sessions is never the case. Even if it were, recharging from 72% to 100 takes about 5 hours on titans and motherships, and 1+ hour on carriers and dreads, so the disparity would largely remain.
But as promised, some numbers:
Typical rokh fit, 10625 shields, recharge time 1875s. Recharges 0.053% of its shield HP per second. Maximum gang bonus of 37.5% shield HP would increase that to 0.073% per second, and it would take approximately 16 minutes to passively recharge from 72% to 100.
Typical chimera fit, 156250 shields, recharge time 15000s Recharges 0.0067% of its shield HP per second. Maximum gang bonus of 37.5% shield HP would increase that to 0.0092% per second, and it would take approximately 125 minutes to passively recharge from 72% to 100.
Typical leviathan fit, 2,808,000 shields, recharge time 36000s. Recharges 0.0027% of its shield HP per second. Maximum gang bonus of 37.5% shield HP would increase that to 0.00382% per second, and it would take approximately 300 (!!) minutes to passively recharge from 72% to 100.
(The shield recharge times are approximations, but should not be far off)
This shows how ridiculously long it takes for the passive recharge to become a full bonus, unlike the armour HP, which works instantly.
When will TQ hit the 100K PCU mark? Place a bet! |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.26 11:23:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 26/12/2009 11:26:32
Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 25/12/2009 20:33:43
Originally by: Venkul Mul Shield fleet bonus increase total shields and so they increase regeneration rate, something that armor bonuses don't do.
If CCP find a way to remove that added bonus ok, if it stay, no.
Shield regen rate is basically a non-issue in PvP. People tend to stay a long time in in session in PvE. I dont see what the problem is. Shields and armour are already balanced with respect to passive regen - That +15% bonus gives me a lot more extra hitpoints from a 1600mm RT than it does from an LSE II.
This especially applies to capital ships: the armour tankers get a big boost from gang bonuses; the shield tankers effectively get nothing.
It all depend on your definition of PvP.
Gatecamping is PvP? The shield regen rate help a lot while armor buffer tankers need the help of repair drones from other people.
Sieging a POS without a gunner? Again the reg rate help a lot while armor tankers need RR
Roaming gang? Sure the shield thing suck there as you are jumping to another system every few minutes
They have different advantages. I repeat, if you want istant regeneration after each jump you must pay losing the extra regeneration over time.
One or the other, not both.
Originally by: Malcanis
No, a buffer tank works by having lots of EHP to start with; the regen rate is irrelevant. A passive tank, which is a very different thing, works on regen rate.
Oh look. Lots of HP (one of the requisites to have lots of EHP) mean you have a good regeneration rate and having them boosted increase that regeneration rate.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.26 11:55:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Sokratesz
But as promised, some numbers:
Typical rokh fit, 10625 shields, recharge time 1875s. Recharges 0.053% of its shield HP per second. Maximum gang bonus of 37.5% shield HP would increase that to 0.073% per second, and it would take approximately 16 minutes to passively recharge from 72% to 100.
Ehm, no, the recharge % stay the same, the HP recharged change.
So, taking your typical fit numbers for granted: 10625 shields, recharge time 1875s, recharge 5,66+ per second with bonus 14.608 and 7,79 hp/s
Originally by: Sokratesz
Typical chimera fit, 156250 shields, recharge time 15000s Recharges 0.0067% of its shield HP per second. Maximum gang bonus of 37.5% shield HP would increase that to 0.0092% per second, and it would take approximately 125 minutes to passively recharge from 72% to 100..
156250 shields, recharge time 15000s, recharge 10,41+ per second with bonus 214.843 and 14,32 hp/s
Originally by: Sokratesz
Typical leviathan fit, 2,808,000 shields, recharge time 36000s. Recharges 0.0027% of its shield HP per second. Maximum gang bonus of 37.5% shield HP would increase that to 0.00382% per second, and it would take approximately 300 (!!) minutes to passively recharge from 72% to 100.
2,808,000 shields, recharge time 36000s, recharge 780 per second with bonus 3.861.000 and 1.072,5 hp/s
So if you don't want to lose the bonus regeneration and want istant HP the other solution is that armor link should give a bonus to armor reppers beside the armor HP.
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