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Red Thunder
tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.12.26 16:14:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Helen Highwater
Originally by: Red Thunder Supported :)
And to the people that say the recharge rate bonus is good enough, it really is stupidly tiny.....the real bonus you need is that bit extra ehp to keep your fleet going for longer
You get the recharge bonus and the EHP buff. You're still getting the bonus to your max shields regardless.
Seriously, do you guys even play the game?
I could say the same to you....The EHP buff only arrives after the shield has regenerated itself, which on a bs can take a good 10-15 minutes, and on a cap it probably wont regen before you get bored and log. So basically if your moving around in a fleet and jump into an enemy gang, you want all of your bonuses applied instantly to gain max EHP, but with the shield one you dont gain the hitpoints before the fights over.
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Hugo Lordmagnus
Caldari Vexillari
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Posted - 2009.12.26 17:05:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Venkul Mul So if you don't want to lose the bonus regeneration and want istant HP the other solution is that armor link should give a bonus to armor reppers beside the armor HP.
First, I find it unnecessary to arbitrarily reduce shield regeneration rate if applying the proposed solution. By the very examples Sokratesz and you provided, such a detriment would not even be significant. We're talking about reducing a percentage of .053% to an even smaller number. Adding the shield HP immediately upon receiving the bonus would not enable the recharge rate to be an overwhelming factor for any of the ship-examples provided.
Second, there are already warfare links which provide bonuses to armor repairers. The proposed change addresses the perceived problem that shield HP bonuses are at a disadvantage to armor HP bonuses at a level which causes imbalance. If you upgrade the shield HP bonus to pursue balance, why is it necessary to add a bonus to armor repairers, thus re-creating the imbalance?
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Izo Alabaster
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company
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Posted - 2009.12.26 19:00:00 -
[33]
Supporting the original idea proposed by Sokratesz in this thread. I'm tired of newbs asking me why they just took some damage when they join my fleets. The newbs are right; they shouldn't receive damaged shields as a bonus for being in fleet, and even newbs know it.
-Not supporting all the bickering and faulty logic thrown up by the opposition in this thread.
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Elias Genvalo
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Posted - 2009.12.26 20:13:00 -
[34]
The bonus is good as is.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.26 21:25:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus
Originally by: Venkul Mul So if you don't want to lose the bonus regeneration and want istant HP the other solution is that armor link should give a bonus to armor reppers beside the armor HP.
First, I find it unnecessary to arbitrarily reduce shield regeneration rate if applying the proposed solution. By the very examples Sokratesz and you provided, such a detriment would not even be significant. We're talking about reducing a percentage of .053% to an even smaller number. Adding the shield HP immediately upon receiving the bonus would not enable the recharge rate to be an overwhelming factor for any of the ship-examples provided.
Second, there are already warfare links which provide bonuses to armor repairers. The proposed change addresses the perceived problem that shield HP bonuses are at a disadvantage to armor HP bonuses at a level which causes imbalance. If you upgrade the shield HP bonus to pursue balance, why is it necessary to add a bonus to armor repairers, thus re-creating the imbalance?
So to sum it up, you want both advantages for 1 shield shield link but nor for 1 armor link?
If the 37,5% increase in recharge rate is not important, you can shed it without problem and in exchange get the shield buff immediately.
If it is important so you don't want to give a similar advantage (not a 37,5% bonus to active repping, note, but a bonus that give a comparable passive repair or a bit larger active repair bonus) to armor buffing links you have and advantage (bonus recharge rate) in exchange to a disadvantage (not immediate buffing of hp).
You can chose one or the other, not both.
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2009.12.26 23:45:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Future Mutant on 26/12/2009 23:45:43 All the arguments about the shield regeneration are ridiculous- if your shields arent passive tank fit then it doesnt matter.
But how about this as a solution.
Since shields dont "fill up" the potential max is increased do the same to armor.
Instead of "filling up" the armor- increase its potential max. They would need to rep up to enjoy the benefits. Then armor tankers would be on an more even playing field in regards to fleet bonuses.
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Berendas
Monolithic.
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Posted - 2009.12.27 00:01:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 26/12/2009 22:21:23
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus
Originally by: Venkul Mul So if you don't want to lose the bonus regeneration and want istant HP the other solution is that armor link should give a bonus to armor reppers beside the armor HP.
First, I find it unnecessary to arbitrarily reduce shield regeneration rate if applying the proposed solution. By the very examples Sokratesz and you provided, such a detriment would not even be significant. We're talking about reducing a percentage of .053% to an even smaller number. Adding the shield HP immediately upon receiving the bonus would not enable the recharge rate to be an overwhelming factor for any of the ship-examples provided.
Second, there are already warfare links which provide bonuses to armor repairers. The proposed change addresses the perceived problem that shield HP bonuses are at a disadvantage to armor HP bonuses at a level which causes imbalance. If you upgrade the shield HP bonus to pursue balance, why is it necessary to add a bonus to armor repairers, thus re-creating the imbalance?
So to sum it up, you want both advantages for 1 shield shield link but nor for 1 armor link?
If the 37,5% increase in recharge rate is not important, you can shed it without problem and in exchange get the shield buff immediately.
If it is important so you don't want to give a similar advantage (not a 37,5% bonus to active repping, note, but a bonus that give a comparable passive repair or a bit larger active repair bonus) to armor buffing links you have and advantage (bonus recharge rate) in exchange to a disadvantage (not immediate buffing of hp).
You can chose one or the other, not both.
BTW: the title of the theread is "Shield gang bonuses should be applied just like armor ones" and it is exactly what I am suggesting.
You get the immediate HP increase but lose the shield regeneration bonus.
Not supported and this sums up why.
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Hugo Lordmagnus
Caldari Vexillari
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Posted - 2009.12.27 01:20:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Venkul Mul So to sum it up, you want both advantages for 1 shield shield link but nor for 1 armor link?
If the 37,5% increase in recharge rate is not important, you can shed it without problem and in exchange get the shield buff immediately.
If it is important so you don't want to give a similar advantage (not a 37,5% bonus to active repping, note, but a bonus that give a comparable passive repair or a bit larger active repair bonus) to armor buffing links you have and advantage (bonus recharge rate) in exchange to a disadvantage (not immediate buffing of hp).
You can chose one or the other, not both.
BTW: the title of the theread is "Shield gang bonuses should be applied just like armor ones" and it is exactly what I am suggesting.
You get the immediate HP increase but lose the shield regeneration bonus.
So to sum it up, you want both advantages for 1 shield shield link but nor for 1 armor link?
No. The proposal here is not about adding advantages to shields or armor bonuses; it's about addressing a perceived disadvantage that shield bonuses suffer as compared to armor bonuses. I've been convinced by Sok's arguments that this is an actual disadvantage and I believe that making bonus shield HP apply filled rather than empty is a good solution.
If the 37,5% increase in recharge rate is not important, you can shed it without problem and in exchange get the shield buff immediately.
I do not believe there is a need here to compromise shield recharge time in order to apply the shield HP as filled upon granting the bonus; that is the point I was making. I'm not saying that shield recharge is unimportant--I'm saying the recharge rate gained from the bonus HP is not significant enough to warrant compromising the proposal with a nerf.
You can chose one or the other, not both.
I disagree with the premise of this statement that there are only two options from which to choose. There is the proposal that shield HP be added as filled, as stated by the OP, and I agree with it.
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Seth Ruin
Ominous Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.12.27 01:27:00 -
[39]
Absolutely agreed. Passive regen is all but irrelevant in PvP fits.
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Adria Sheridan
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Posted - 2009.12.27 14:32:00 -
[40]
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Captain Mung
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Posted - 2009.12.28 02:24:00 -
[41]
It's fine as is. Logistics ftw.
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Omega Flames
Last Resort Inn SYSTEM SHOCK INITIATIVE
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Posted - 2009.12.28 03:11:00 -
[42]
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Jared Ulfsuun
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Posted - 2009.12.28 19:50:00 -
[43]
Either
a) the regeneration takes significant time, in which case the problem is real.
b) the regeneration doesn't take much time at all, in which case giving the full bonus immediately doesn't really matter.
...but yeah, session change is the real issue here.
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Pian Shu
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.28 20:02:00 -
[44]
There's absolutely no reason the shield bonus shouldn't be applied in exactly the same manner as the armor bonus.
There are plenty of disadvantages to shield tanking already without this in the mix: signature radius, nobody wants a shield tanker, no shield equivalent to the 1600mm plate.
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2009.12.29 09:56:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Aineko Macx on 29/12/2009 09:59:05 Not supported, for the reasons already cited.
What I think should be looked at is the fact that after jumping with the fleet you will have lost the bonus, then reapplied, so there is shield missing. This could be solved by adding a grace timer to bridge the jumping period, 10 seconds or so.
Originally by: Pian Shu There are plenty of disadvantages to shield tanking already without this in the mix: signature radius, nobody wants a shield tanker, no shield equivalent to the 1600mm plate.
This is lame, armor tanking has its own problems and there are shield mods without armor equivalents as well
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Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.12.29 11:30:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Future Mutant Edited by: Future Mutant on 26/12/2009 23:45:43 All the arguments about the shield regeneration are ridiculous- if your shields arent passive tank fit then it doesnt matter.
But how about this as a solution.
Since shields dont "fill up" the potential max is increased do the same to armor.
Instead of "filling up" the armor- increase its potential max. They would need to rep up to enjoy the benefits. Then armor tankers would be on an more even playing field in regards to fleet bonuses.
Fully supported , lets remove instant armor hp gain, they can still rep them back to the bonused maximum.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.12.29 13:26:00 -
[47]
Gang shield tanks need a looking at.
Further issues are the stupid req's for shield transfer arrays + shield transfer arrays should boost more than there armor equivs to make up for lower base resists in the same fashion that solo shield boosters can boost more hp than armor equivs.
Currently 90% of RR gangs using armor shows us that Shield RR is broken.
When gang bonuses are applied the shield charged % should remain the same imo.
So 100% shield before is 100% after gang bonuses applied 90% shield before is 90% after gang bonuses applied etc.
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Helen Highwater
Gallente Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.29 15:57:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Red Thunder
Originally by: Helen Highwater
Originally by: Red Thunder Supported :)
And to the people that say the recharge rate bonus is good enough, it really is stupidly tiny.....the real bonus you need is that bit extra ehp to keep your fleet going for longer
You get the recharge bonus and the EHP buff. You're still getting the bonus to your max shields regardless.
Seriously, do you guys even play the game?
I could say the same to you....The EHP buff only arrives after the shield has regenerated itself, which on a bs can take a good 10-15 minutes, and on a cap it probably wont regen before you get bored and log. So basically if your moving around in a fleet and jump into an enemy gang, you want all of your bonuses applied instantly to gain max EHP, but with the shield one you dont gain the hitpoints before the fights over.
Awesome so you're arguing in this thread but you don't understand what EHP is (hint: it's not the same as raw HP). --------------------------------------------------------------
Let's not and say we did. |
Tsubutai
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Posted - 2009.12.29 18:19:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Helen Highwater
Originally by: Red Thunder
Originally by: Helen Highwater
Originally by: Red Thunder Supported :)
And to the people that say the recharge rate bonus is good enough, it really is stupidly tiny.....the real bonus you need is that bit extra ehp to keep your fleet going for longer
You get the recharge bonus and the EHP buff. You're still getting the bonus to your max shields regardless.
Seriously, do you guys even play the game?
I could say the same to you....The EHP buff only arrives after the shield has regenerated itself, which on a bs can take a good 10-15 minutes, and on a cap it probably wont regen before you get bored and log. So basically if your moving around in a fleet and jump into an enemy gang, you want all of your bonuses applied instantly to gain max EHP, but with the shield one you dont gain the hitpoints before the fights over.
Awesome so you're arguing in this thread but you don't understand what EHP is (hint: it's not the same as raw HP).
EHP = (raw HP)/(1-average resists). Since this thread isn't about bonuses that affect resists, what on earth are you driving at?
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Such'A'Kawaii'Morning
Apostrophe's on Everything.
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Posted - 2009.12.29 19:22:00 -
[50]
Supportin dis
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Helen Highwater
Gallente Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.29 19:28:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Tsubutai
EHP = (raw HP)/(1-average resists). Since this thread isn't about bonuses that affect resists, what on earth are you driving at?
Regen and repair rate is also EHP as they are also HP that the incoming DPS has to defeat. --------------------------------------------------------------
Let's not and say we did. |
Hugo Lordmagnus
Caldari Vexillari
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Posted - 2009.12.29 20:04:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Helen Highwater
Originally by: Tsubutai
EHP = (raw HP)/(1-average resists). Since this thread isn't about bonuses that affect resists, what on earth are you driving at?
Regen and repair rate is also EHP as they are also HP that the incoming DPS has to defeat.
I agree and yet not.
Regen and repair rate are better compared to DPS. Essentially, EHP is a more informative number when considering an alpha strike or enough firepower which will easily overcome regeneration rates--i.e. you've been called primary, so your regen doesn't matter--it's your EHP that sits between you and a lost ship. Attackers have to deal approximately the EHP damage in order to rapidly kill a target. However, in a fight where that's not possible, they instead must overcome the regeneration to get the kill.
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Zeveron
Destructive Influence IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.30 12:00:00 -
[53]
Since a dev told me that capital booster is not of any use on my ship and I dont wana play with -37.5% of my main tank after every session change:
Supported
And to add to the discussion here: 1. Armor tanks have also slave sets working 2. The imbalance (especialy after the hp bonus on supercaps) is bigger, bcs you apply a bonus on a bonus. 3. 60k shield per min is nothing when/if you die after a few mins. How much time do I need to stay alife with passive shield regen to balance the double armor tank bonus (instant gang bonus applied on slave bonus)? ________________________________________________
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DenShou
Gallente Wolves of Fenrir High Guard Council
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Posted - 2010.01.01 02:06:00 -
[54]
While I do agree there is a problem, I cannot support this as an solution to the problem. There is a larger problem Shields vrs Armor epically in capital class ships and implants. ~ #### Faith can move mountains.... of Inventory - Rule #104 Ferengi Rules of Acquisition |
Vespoi Filar
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Posted - 2010.01.01 08:37:00 -
[55]
A perhaps not impossibly difficult fix?
Leadership bonuses are applied to your ship for 2 min (1 min, 3 min, 90 sec, WHATEVER) after each session change.
500 man fleet jumps into system via Titan Bridge. 500 ships say... meh... I still have my bonuses, I'll check again in XXX seconds to see if they are still there.
If, I have repped or waited for my shields to regen before doing the session change I keep my current boosted shield level. If the "booster" has gone afk, disco'd, not jumped in... at some point I lose my boost.
For added amusement and de-lagging purposes the timer can be somewhat random so 500 clients aren't looking for their boosts at the same time.
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Ignition SemperFi
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.01.01 23:22:00 -
[56]
bump
not to mention all it takes is for you to drop fleet, dock, change systems, or have a squad leader do any of the previous mention and you will loose your gang bonuses
Its obsurd to think this is balanced ---- People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
New PVP Movie - Space Vikings II |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.01.02 03:20:00 -
[57]
I'm not opposed to the HP just coming in full, but if for whatever reason CCP opposes this, persistence across session changes(for some reasonable period of time) would be an adequate substitute. In any case, some manner of fix is needed.
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OzDeaDMeaT
The Goodies
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Posted - 2010.01.02 06:06:00 -
[58]
supported.
Eve-au.com News Reporter |
steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.02 11:12:00 -
[59]
Quote: However buffer tanks by definiton do better from the enhanced regen rate as that's the core of their defence. ALso buffer tanks and very high EHP ships like capitals are the least likely to need that instant 10/15% shield bonus as they are very unlikely to be alpha'd. The longer they tank for, the less important that shield bonus becomes and the more important the regen bonus is.
The bolded part is the key. In pvp, the enemy will quickly chew trough your ehp, and the few extra hp recharged thanks to the bonus won't even come close to extending your survival time as much as a straight hp boost with no extra recharge would.
As an example, a raven with 3 LSE II, 2 invul II and 3 cdfe has a 119 dps passive tank with 124k ehp. Mr. All Level V increase the passive tank by 12 to 131 and max ehp to 134k. With 400 dps incomming (extremely low even in a 1v1) and assuming that you get max recharge all the time (which you in fact doesn't even get close to, recharge in the 0-20 and 50-100% or so range is ALOOOT lower) it would last 476 seconds with the ehp boost, but without the recharge boost, compared 460 seconds if it's the other way around. Any increase in dps from there increase the difference even more. For example, in a 20v20 close range BS fight, the raven should expect atleast 15k dps if the hostiles have low skills, which the buffer one can take for 9 seconds, while the regen one dies in 8.34, hardly better at all then the base 8.33 it would get without bonuses (having both bonuses clock in at 9.01)...and again, that's assuming the recharge stays the same the whole way, which is not even close to true.
Quote: The session persistence is the major issue that I see. I wouldn't like to see the original proposal implemented as I believe that would be a big boost to some types of shield tank (such as passive tanks) that don't really need it however I do think that the problem for large buffer tanks needs to be solved.
Ehm, passive tanks would hardly be effected at all since passive tanks require recharge speed mods to be effective, so they'd get that shield in no time anyway. Passive tanks are for PVE though, and in PVE you're usually solo and not getting bonuses anyway.
Quote: It all depend on your definition of PvP.
Gatecamping is PvP? The shield regen rate help a lot while armor buffer tankers need the help of repair drones from other people.
Sieging a POS without a gunner? Again the reg rate help a lot while armor tankers need RR
Roaming gang? Sure the shield thing suck there as you are jumping to another system every few minutes
They have different advantages. I repeat, if you want istant regeneration after each jump you must pay losing the extra regeneration over time.
One or the other, not both.
In any kind of PVP, I'd want my main tanking layer to be completely filled at all times. That means I'd be calling for reps as soon as it takes damage. That in turn means that it never gets close to peak recharge, and getting a fraction of the tiny boost that the bonus gives is extremely insignificant.
Quote: Oh look. Lots of HP (one of the requisites to have lots of EHP) mean you have a good regeneration rate and having them boosted increase that regeneration rate.
But buffer tanks are used in situations where you know incomming dps will be so high that any amount you can rep will be insigificant and the only thing that matter is to delay the inevitable so that your friends stand a chance.
Quote: So to sum it up, you want both advantages for 1 shield shield link but nor for 1 armor link?
No. I want to get my shield boost, just like armour tankers get theirs. They get +10/+15% to all standard armour attributes. I want +10/15% to all standard shield attributes aswell. The fact that high ehp=some passive tank is a shield tanking perk in general, not specific to the gang bonus. The bonus is supposed to boost every natural part of the tank, and recharge is natural for shields.
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steave435
Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.03 01:56:00 -
[60]
This part was supposed to be posted right after the one above, but seems like the forum ate it..
Quote: If the 37,5% increase in recharge rate is not important, you can shed it without problem and in exchange get the shield buff immediately.
A straight up HP boost with nerfed recharge time to balance out the increased hp in regards to hp recharged/sec would indeed be alot better, even though both should be given imo due to what I wrote right above this.
Quote: If it is important so you don't want to give a similar advantage (not a 37,5% bonus to active repping, note, but a bonus that give a comparable passive repair or a bit larger active repair bonus) to armor buffing links you have and advantage (bonus recharge rate) in exchange to a disadvantage (not immediate buffing of hp).
No. Recharge is not a natural feature of armour like it is for shields, so making it give an un-natural bonus should require specialized mods, aka wafrare links. However, it is indeed very insignificant, so I don't care much either way,
Quote:
Awesome so you're arguing in this thread but you don't understand what EHP is (hint: it's not the same as raw HP).
EHP is indeed not the same as hp, but it scales with it. EHP = How much damage you can absorb without having to resort to repairing in any way. Your definition of "Regen and repair rate is also EHP as they are also HP that the incoming DPS has to defeat" is pretty much unique. Hugo summed it up very well:
Quote: Regen and repair rate are better compared to DPS. Essentially, EHP is a more informative number when considering an alpha strike or enough firepower which will easily overcome regeneration rates--i.e. you've been called primary, so your regen doesn't matter--it's your EHP that sits between you and a lost ship.
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