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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.01.31 23:11:00 -
[91]
Originally by: wert668 You know, you can exploit what you suggest by micromanagement. If you get free HP you just need join and leave fleet repeatedly, this will cost CCP to make whole now way to count bonuses in order to prevent this, I really don't think they are going to do this just for you
This was already brought up- and solved. Not sure if it was this thread or a similar one where the question was posed and answered. Its really not a huge deal. The tl/dr version- it wouldnt be necessary to recode anything other then the mechanics you wanted changed. The servers can easily be made to tell the difference between bonused ehp and ships ehp.
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.02.01 12:05:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Franga Supported, however, I think that more than anything, the session change reset is the biggest issue here. However, how can that be tackled easily? I'm not sure it can.
With the amount of shields on caps it will be useless even if they made it persistent across sessions.
Originally by: wert668 You know, you can exploit what you suggest by micromanagement. If you get free HP you just need join and leave fleet repeatedly, this will cost CCP to make whole now way to count bonuses in order to prevent this, I really don't think they are going to do this just for you
Nope it wouldn't be - read up.
Want to test a supercap on SISI but don't have one? |
Arrador
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Posted - 2010.02.01 15:36:00 -
[93]
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MuppetsSlayed
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Posted - 2010.02.01 21:53:00 -
[94]
Finally this issue is raised.
As a pilot who flys mainly caldari ships i see this is an imbalance that needs to be adressed. I am dumbfounded at the CSM's inability to fully grasp this issue and how it effects people like me almost DAILY - its totally unfair.
Someone should propose the opposite topic to the CSM: When armour tanking ships receive gang bonuses the total armour amount will be increased - however the extended HP will be in an unrepaired state.
This change is necassary to bring armour tanking ships inline with shield tanking ships and render the bonus received totally useless.
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Grapez
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2010.02.01 21:57:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Berendas
Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 26/12/2009 22:21:23
Originally by: Hugo Lordmagnus
Originally by: Venkul Mul So if you don't want to lose the bonus regeneration and want istant HP the other solution is that armor link should give a bonus to armor reppers beside the armor HP.
First, I find it unnecessary to arbitrarily reduce shield regeneration rate if applying the proposed solution. By the very examples Sokratesz and you provided, such a detriment would not even be significant. We're talking about reducing a percentage of .053% to an even smaller number. Adding the shield HP immediately upon receiving the bonus would not enable the recharge rate to be an overwhelming factor for any of the ship-examples provided.
Second, there are already warfare links which provide bonuses to armor repairers. The proposed change addresses the perceived problem that shield HP bonuses are at a disadvantage to armor HP bonuses at a level which causes imbalance. If you upgrade the shield HP bonus to pursue balance, why is it necessary to add a bonus to armor repairers, thus re-creating the imbalance?
So to sum it up, you want both advantages for 1 shield shield link but nor for 1 armor link?
If the 37,5% increase in recharge rate is not important, you can shed it without problem and in exchange get the shield buff immediately.
If it is important so you don't want to give a similar advantage (not a 37,5% bonus to active repping, note, but a bonus that give a comparable passive repair or a bit larger active repair bonus) to armor buffing links you have and advantage (bonus recharge rate) in exchange to a disadvantage (not immediate buffing of hp).
You can chose one or the other, not both.
BTW: the title of the theread is "Shield gang bonuses should be applied just like armor ones" and it is exactly what I am suggesting.
You get the immediate HP increase but lose the shield regeneration bonus.
Not supported and this sums up why.
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PsyKzz
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.02 02:38:00 -
[96]
How i see it is like this. Your fleet commander is already in the system with a hostile gang enganged. ( BLAH BLAH not too much detail ) You jump in, ¼ as an armour tank. You get your instant HP and are able to help out as a fleet. ¼ as a shield tank. You jump in with an increase of around 1hp/s shield recharge, however you do not receive the bonus of hp. You've lost out.
The reason i think it should be applied instantly is that if you think about your argument that the extra shield recharge is enough to warrant not applying an instant hp increase. You need to consider the fact that, this is how shield tanks work. They have recharge, you can not change that without changing how you have the ships in EVE.
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Aleena Doran
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Posted - 2010.02.02 05:00:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Aleena Doran on 02/02/2010 05:00:42 I use shield gang boosts with my buddies and like them the way they are. We fly hisec and are not usually involved in war. Command ships are used when doing mission ops or cosmos sites etc. The recharge rate boost they give is much appreciated. We use a lot of passive shield tank ships. Having a command ship lets us introduce new players to team activities that would otherwise be too high risk for them.
I appreciate most of the earlier posters may be involved in nul-sec warfare. Fair enough. However please remember that that is just one segment of the Eve community. I think it is good that the various command ships have different functionality. The vulture is our command ship of choice for our hisec activities. I would be dissapointed if it lost the passive recharge bonus.
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.02.02 05:39:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Aleena Doran Edited by: Aleena Doran on 02/02/2010 05:00:42 I use shield gang boosts with my buddies and like them the way they are. We fly hisec and are not usually involved in war. Command ships are used when doing mission ops or cosmos sites etc. The recharge rate boost they give is much appreciated. We use a lot of passive shield tank ships. Having a command ship lets us introduce new players to team activities that would otherwise be too high risk for them.
I appreciate most of the earlier posters may be involved in nul-sec warfare. Fair enough. However please remember that that is just one segment of the Eve community. I think it is good that the various command ships have different functionality. The vulture is our command ship of choice for our hisec activities. I would be dissapointed if it lost the passive recharge bonus.
HI! you like pve and thats great- np. But since the actual problem (ie this thread) is about shield bonus disparity in fleet pvp situations- well it kind of makes your whole post mute.
Lets face it- pvp and pve are different. The ships are differently fit- the tactics are different. The average pve'er isnt using a cap ship for instance.
As for the pve "what if" it lost the fleet bonus to its passive tank. Really? How much difference are we really talking here? The things can damn near survive in any lvl 4 with full room agro.
In a perfect world everyone would realize that shield tanks have passive and active tanks going for them- and armor tanks have spider repping, better resists, better buffer going for them. The entire fleet bonus confusion is crap- In virtually 99% of pvp cases the passive recharge= donkey balls.
When was the last time someone jumped into a fleet fight and said "screw buffer, ive got 400 shield recharge per second".
The problem because game breaking obvious when you consider cap ships. You almost have to be semi ******ed to use anything that fires missiles anyway- on top of that you get the passive recharge rate of the average hollywood movie and no effective hitpoint bonus. Sure you get the "possibility" of those hitpoints- and if your fleet fight was scheduled to allow you ten mins to rep up after jumping into system then your fine. If not they you should have skilled up armor tanking and brought the right ship.
Tl/dr- the entire crap about its balanced because of passive recharge is **** and lets face it- everyone making the argument knows it. You can not honestly tell me a few extra hp's a sec passive recharge is of relative value to say- a ****load more ehp's. Not even close. *unless your one of those ****ing idiots that only flies a drake and then you can go **** yourself*
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Tagami Wasp
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.02.02 06:00:00 -
[99]
------------ Railgun performance required fix: - +15% railgun damage modifier - +10% PG for Caldari railgun ships |
Aleena Doran
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Posted - 2010.02.02 07:04:00 -
[100]
I agree tactics and ship fittings are different for PVP and PVE activities.
As I understand it the proposal is to make a change to shield gang boosts to benefit PVP activities.
What I'm trying to point out is that this shouldn't be to the detriment of people who use shield gang boosts in PVE activities, where the passive recharge rate boost is very useful.
PVP and PVE are both valid activities in EVE.
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Future Mutant
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.02.02 07:57:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Aleena Doran I agree tactics and ship fittings are different for PVP and PVE activities.
As I understand it the proposal is to make a change to shield gang boosts to benefit PVP activities.
What I'm trying to point out is that this shouldn't be to the detriment of people who use shield gang boosts in PVE activities, where the passive recharge rate boost is very useful.
PVP and PVE are both valid activities in EVE.
I agree with you. Theres no reason the fleet bonus shouldnt give the passive shield regen bonus. The fleet bonuses (and spidertanking mechanics) aside- shields and armor are more or less balanced between themselves. Meaning that neither one has a clear advantage over the other. In my opinion the shields should keep their bonused passive recharge and get the ehp's immediately from fleet bonuses.
Barring that- armor shouldnt get the effective hitpoint bonus. Then shields and armor would have to rep up to take advantage of the potential ehp's.
Even though this prolly wont make it past csm- this is something i hope ccp notices and considers for a future change.
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Lady Leila
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Posted - 2010.02.02 09:21:00 -
[102]
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titains
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Posted - 2010.02.05 20:39:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Future Mutant I agree with you. Theres no reason the fleet bonus shouldnt give the passive shield regen bonus. The fleet bonuses (and spidertanking mechanics) aside- shields and armor are more or less balanced between themselves. Meaning that neither one has a clear advantage over the other. In my opinion the shields should keep their bonused passive recharge and get the ehp's immediately from fleet bonuses.
Barring that- armor shouldnt get the effective hitpoint bonus. Then shields and armor would have to rep up to take advantage of the potential ehp's.
Even though this prolly wont make it past csm- this is something i hope ccp notices and considers for a future change.
This is exactly what needs to happen, shields get ehp and increased regen while armor get ehp bonus. This is balnced because armor generally has a larger buffer to start with and the bonus is percent based.
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Gigiarc
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Posted - 2010.02.06 05:08:00 -
[104]
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DeLaBu
Hive Bound Technologies Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2010.02.10 08:58:00 -
[105]
Singed.
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Zormaka Brutus
Supalayian
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Posted - 2010.02.10 10:58:00 -
[106]
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Super Chair
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Posted - 2010.02.10 19:32:00 -
[107]
I fully support the idea of having maximum shield hp bonus apply instantly to bring it more in lines with the armor version of this bonus.
I can understand where the opposition is coming from in terms of the regenernation arguement. Armor tankers don't get a repair rate bonus from their maximum armor hp bonus. I would agree with the following:
If my maximum shield capacity is X and the regeneration rate is Y relative to that maximum shield capacity, prebonuses, then post bonuses when my new shield capacity is Z then that rengeneration rate stays as Y.
Under the current mechanics, no one benefits from the seige warfare skill, unless they been sitting in the same system collecting cobwebs for a significantly prolonged amount of time. A hotdropped thanny and hotdropped chimera both benefit from the armor hp bonus, but neither benefit from the shield hp bonus unless they are untouched for a long, long time. The proposed change would benefits all fleets, regardless of their composition.
Try not to think of this as a brawl between armor and shield tankers for superiority, but as a way to make fleets more effective in general. Also think of it as a way to stop the bruising on the backsides of anyone who trained seige warfare V so they can stop kicking themselves for not training the armor version of it instead . The proposed change diversifies the game through balance. Rather than force people to choose one way to tank or the other because a leadership bonus of one apply while the other does not, why not let them choose?
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Gaogan
Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.02.10 20:15:00 -
[108]
This is not specific to gang bonuses. EVERYTHING that adds to your shields, be it the shield operation skill, shield extender modules or rigs, or whatever has always been broken in this way and needs fixed. Passive recharge is a non sequitur. Passive tanks are passive tanks -- with or without any one specific size add ( fleet bonus in this case ). Hence there is no need to muck with shield recharge time. There is also no issue with exploitability because it just needs to work the same way as armor, which has never been exploited. Specifically, when you add/subtract x to maximum shields, you also add/subtract x to current shields.
I'm sick and tired of having to wait 10 minutes for the shields to go from 30% to 100% on my shield tanked lachesis whenever I board it, and the shield tanked supercaps are just ridiculously hurt by this bug.
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titains
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Posted - 2010.02.23 03:14:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Gaogan This is not specific to gang bonuses. EVERYTHING that adds to your shields, be it the shield operation skill, shield extender modules or rigs, or whatever has always been broken in this way and needs fixed. Passive recharge is a non sequitur. Passive tanks are passive tanks -- with or without any one specific size add ( fleet bonus in this case ). Hence there is no need to muck with shield recharge time. There is also no issue with exploitability because it just needs to work the same way as armor, which has never been exploited. Specifically, when you add/subtract x to maximum shields, you also add/subtract x to current shields.
I'm sick and tired of having to wait 10 minutes for the shields to go from 30% to 100% on my shield tanked lachesis whenever I board it, and the shield tanked supercaps are just ridiculously hurt by this bug.
This man gets what the problem with shield tanks is. The only time when you board a ship and the shields are full is if you board it in a station.
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Valumz
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Posted - 2010.02.24 19:18:00 -
[110]
Supported
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Gizan
Gods Killing Machines Ihatalo Cartel Navy
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Posted - 2010.02.25 03:30:00 -
[111]
I support this thread. But to those people that say it makes shield tanking is just not understanding what were asking for. We just want the shields to be full when we jump in, just like it does with armor.
Or the other option
Add a "secondary" "session change timer" that will keep the fleet bonus's for x amount of time allowing people to jump into the next system.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.02.25 08:08:00 -
[112]
Fix it. Even after fix armor tanks will be still prefered over shield in large gangs, especially at capital lvl.
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eocsnesemaj
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Posted - 2010.03.04 18:45:00 -
[113]
Supported
If regen rate stays the same then i think this is one of the most needed fixes in eve. Also could be applied to POS ship arrays. when you get in a shield ship from a POS ur shield skills are not applied until you are already in the ship giving you a large -in shield HP.
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Pellura
Can You Dig It
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Posted - 2010.03.04 21:25:00 -
[114]
YES ^^ |
d3vo
Isotope Laboratories
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Posted - 2010.03.05 02:39:00 -
[115]
Sure, get rid of the damage applied to shields due to fleet bonuses. But I don't see the reason to penalize shield recharge.
ch33rs |
Amber Michaels
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Posted - 2010.03.05 11:35:00 -
[116]
The proposal is perfect.
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Noisrevbus
Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2010.03.10 15:42:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 10/03/2010 15:45:28
1. Shield and armor tanking is two different concepts.
2. Regeneration is an integral part of Shield tanking.
3. You give up other things in order to gain regeneration.
4. A dumbed down example is to square shield regeneration against lower total HP with similar fitting restrictions/options.
5. Thus any percentage based armor bonus is likely to introduce a higher total HP bonus (1600mm highly affecting BS to Cruiser ranges).
6. Not letting shield bonuses apply instantly and citing regeneration is thus dually punitive (regneration and total HP).
= let the bonuses apply instantly, let the shields gain the indirect bonus to regeneration.
No need for complex balancing acts.
The effective application of the regeneration bonus is far less representative ingame than the 'loss' of total HP is limiting.
Else, provide me one live example where added effect of regeneration would risk throwing the game balance worse than what is currently incurred.
+ Support for the idea, even if the regeneration penalty isn't needed in my book.
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Bilaz
Minmatar Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
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Posted - 2010.03.10 17:06:00 -
[118]
not supporting. you propose more ship stats to be changed every time anyone leaves/joins fleet - thus create more lag. and lag on joining fleet is bad enough already, so no thanks. Plus i cannot care less about some puny hp boost thats somehow delayed.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.03.10 17:24:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Bilaz not supporting. you propose more ship stats to be changed every time anyone leaves/joins fleet - thus create more lag. and lag on joining fleet is bad enough already, so no thanks. Plus i cannot care less about some puny hp boost thats somehow delayed.
what? this is already done every time you change local/booster change local,it wouldnt make a difference at all. So pls check that support check box like the rest of us. thx
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.03.10 19:16:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Bilaz not supporting. you propose more ship stats to be changed every time anyone leaves/joins fleet - thus create more lag. and lag on joining fleet is bad enough already, so no thanks. Plus i cannot care less about some puny hp boost thats somehow delayed.
Speaking before thinking FTL.
People train shield management for 5% per level. 10% (level 5 siege warfare) or 15% (with the implant) is a HUGE deal. Especially on bigger ships. Even if you are in an armor tanked BS, having an additional 10% shields is usually 1000-3000 extra EHP. Imagine the difference on a capital or super capital. HUGE.
Fix Local |
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