|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 48 post(s) |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
929
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:This is like when the Villain in the movie spends so much time broadcasting his success it leads to his downfall.
You uh, missed the part where we told CCP about all this ourselves, right? |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
929
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 17:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mabego Tetrimon wrote:So if you Goons came out BEFORE CCP find out about your cheatings, i would be impressed. Now. Not so much, another round of cheaters will bite the dust.
So this is the new forum meme? First It was GoonCP, now it's "Goons admitted everything after being caught?"
Did you not read the part where we told CCP about the imbalance in the change they made to the market? |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
929
|
Posted - 2012.06.21 18:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fuujin wrote:Simetraz wrote:Too long to bother to read, anyone want to give me a one paragraph answer about what this one is supposed to be about ?
5 trillion isk.
Only 5 trillion? Christ, I thought this was a lot of money or something, that's pocket change. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
930
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 19:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
I really don't envy the CCP team right now. On the one hand, the temptation to do something is outrageous I'm sure. On the other hand, technically speaking Aryth and the rest of the Economic specialists in Goonswarm did absolutely nothing wrong, they just happened to do this absolutely nothing wrong to an unhealthy extreme. Or, if you prefer, a "Goonish" extreme.
On the other hand, 5 Trillion ISK isn't that much -- that's what, 2, 3 months of Goonswarm's income? I had originally heard that it was 1 Quadrillion (1000 Trillion) ISK, which gave me the strangest feeling in my happy spot.
As an aside: It's kinda funny, but I'm pretty sure Goonswarm "employs" more Economics Majors than CCP does. ;)
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
930
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. You do know you can file a bug report without inflating your wallet right? If the wallet gets inflated in the process, it's logical to expect CCP will fix the whole problem. The WHOLE problem, not the whole problem minus your finders fee. Please justify CCP taking assets that were not earned through this.
"Because Goons."
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
930
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. That is a pretty single sided view on the matter. If you had just proven the issue and not abuse it to no end, it would not been punished don't you think? And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned! Scamming player is perfectly fine in this game, but NOT ALL scamming NPC so it seems. It would be good if CCP highlighted where the line is precisely. That way you would know for sure how far you can go!
Except we didn't exploit anything to do this. We used in game mechanics to their logical conclusion. It is not Aryth's fault that CCP did not QC or test their own patch, nor did they listen to the CSM when they were warned that this change was unwise.
But yes, CCP has set the bar quite effectively: If you find a market loophole, don't tell them. Instead, tell all your friends, and abuse it over the course of 6-12 months instead of 4 weeks. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
931
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook. If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect. This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly.
Not empty quoting. I don't envy CCP, but using this as an excuse to punish Goons economically is just wrong. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook. If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect. This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. well see, no They really aren't trying to punish you I'm sure. They are just trying to reverse the problem you simultaneously pointed out and created. If they wanted to punish you they'd ban you.
WE did not create any problems. CCP did.
WE told CCP about it in part by showing just how much it could be abused by the more autistic people in our community so they would realize how badly THEY screwed up. In response, they are punishing us for our good deed.
Read this thread again. Other people knew about this and were doing it, just not to our extent. This would have been abused for months until CCP noticed, if they ever did, without Aryth and the Goon econ team's intervention.
No one in Goonswarm expected this to not be rolled back. Not realistically. We did it for two reasons: To show just had badly CCP messed up (directly to them), and, after having warned CCP ourselves, to give the tinfoil hat wearing ladies and gentlemen on these forums something to spurge about. However, using this as an excuse to punish those who revealed this poorly designed game mechanic is absolutely, unequivocally, wrong.
CCP owes Aryth an apology for overcorrecting and deleting funds not related to this -- I certainly hope they decide to do so shortly. In addition, they need to look through at accounts such as Jade Constantine to make sure all people who did this "exploit" have their funds rolled back. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: They aren't punishing you. You did nothing wrong. No one is getting banned here.
They are just trying to completely fix teh problem you were nice enough to point out at your own in-game expense. Part of that fixing is getting rid of the stuff gained using the problem. You understand.
If that's what they were doing, we wouldn't be up in arms. They are not just doing that. They are removing assets that the Goon Economics team had prior to this situation that had nothing to do with our demonstration of the poorly designed FW change.
Please understand -- if this was just rolling back the 5 trillion, we'd be fine. It's beyond that. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference.
So the only people allowed to make bug reports are those willing to fly to Iceland and donate their time as computer programmers?
You make less and less sense the more you talk, PrONEncess Alia.
|
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Arrgthepirate wrote:Inspiration wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. That is a pretty single sided view on the matter. If you had just proven the issue and not abuse it to no end, it would not been punished don't you think? And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned! Scamming player is perfectly fine in this game, but NOT ALL scamming NPC so it seems. It would be good if CCP highlighted where the line is precisely. That way you would know for sure how far you can go! Nothing was produced from nothing. THey spent real isk to acquire assets. Get your facts right. I never said you produced something from nothing, you are mistaken me for someone else that run that argument. You did however gained excess LP that was convertible to goods and you did it by scamming the system. In this instance trough market manipulation (but not manipulating players), where with the pos example i think it was a bug with the effect of also flooding the market with stuff that realistically should not have been there in those quantities. SO before you accuse me of something, and I know your pissed right now, get your facts straight indeed!
"excess LP" = something from nothing. Otherwise, it wouldn't be "excess", right? |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
933
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 23:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
SeaBassSA wrote:Scatim Helicon wrote:Aryth wrote:I understand what you are saying. But like you said, it was Goons vs Sandbox. This was never about Goons vs CCP. . And now it has turned into CCP vs Sandbox. Or Sony vs CCP/Sandbox/Goons
It is a bit odd now that CCP is dressing up in it's best thigh highs and C-string for Sony that all this anti-PVP nonsense has started up. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
934
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
You'll note that CCP is not calling this an exploit, and in interviews so far they are very carefully not calling it an exploit. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
From This interview:
http://visir.is/misnotudu-glufu-i-eve-online---hognudust-um-21-milljon-isk-i-leiknum/article/2012120629638
Quote:Spur+¦ur hvort spilararnir ++urfi a+¦ takast +í vi+¦ einhverjar aflei+¦ingar vegna m+ílsins svarar P+¬tur: GÇPT+ªknilega s+¬+¦ voru ++eir ekki a+¦ gera neitt sem var banna+¦. +Pannig ++a+¦ er +¦lj+¦st hva+¦ ver+¦ur gert."
P+¬tur segir spilarana hafa einfaldlega n++tt s+¬r glufu innan leiksins, GÇPog er +¡ raun t++p+¡skt fyrir EVE spilara. +Pa+¦ eru oft +¦tr+¦lega greindir n+íungar a+¦ spila leikinn. +Pa+¦ er frekar a+¦ ++a+¦ s+¬ borin vir+¦ing fyrir hugvitsseminni h+¬r innan h+¦ss," segir P+¬tur a+¦ lokum.
Or, in English:
Quote:Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "
Peter says the players have simply taken advantage of cracks within the game, "and is actually very typical for EVE players. There are often amazing diagnosed guys playing the game. It is further submitted that it is respect for the creative songwriting here inside the house, "said Peter, in the end.
CCP official: Goon Market Manipulation NOT against the rules, and NOT an exploit.
Tinfoil hat wearing pubbies, your comments?
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever.
Here you go. Ignore the crackpot pubbies on the forums ranting about how it's oh so dangerous an activity, you'll die on average once a year or so and make a few Trillion with absolutely no risk due to the same crackpot pubbies blubbering to CCP every single time someone looks at them funny. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:How exactly does one match the staggering profits of such an exploit after CCP has specifically iced it? Enlighten me as to how I can make trillions in profit with next to no risk whatsoever. Here you go. Ignore the crackpot pubbies on the forums ranting about how it's oh so dangerous an activity, you'll die on average once a year or so and make a few Trillion with absolutely no risk due to the same crackpot pubbies blubbering to CCP every single time someone looks at them funny. What do I mine that makes me, personally, 100 billion isk in 2 months or so? Please, keep trying. I'm dying to hear this.
I suggest mining morons. You can get 500m per recruitment scam, easily. If you work hard at it, 100 billion isk in 2 months should be quite easy, that's only 200 marks. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Xython wrote:From This interview: http://visir.is/misnotudu-glufu-i-eve-online---hognudust-um-21-milljon-isk-i-leiknum/article/2012120629638Quote:Spur+¦ur hvort spilararnir ++urfi a+¦ takast +í vi+¦ einhverjar aflei+¦ingar vegna m+ílsins svarar P+¬tur: GÇPT+ªknilega s+¬+¦ voru ++eir ekki a+¦ gera neitt sem var banna+¦. +Pannig ++a+¦ er +¦lj+¦st hva+¦ ver+¦ur gert."
P+¬tur segir spilarana hafa einfaldlega n++tt s+¬r glufu innan leiksins, GÇPog er +¡ raun t++p+¡skt fyrir EVE spilara. +Pa+¦ eru oft +¦tr+¦lega greindir n+íungar a+¦ spila leikinn. +Pa+¦ er frekar a+¦ ++a+¦ s+¬ borin vir+¦ing fyrir hugvitsseminni h+¬r innan h+¦ss," segir P+¬tur a+¦ lokum. Or, in English: Quote:Asked whether the players have to deal with any consequences of the case said Peter, "Technically speaking, they were not doing anything that was forbidden. Thus, it is unclear what will be done. "
Peter says the players have simply taken advantage of cracks within the game, "and is actually very typical for EVE players. There are often amazing diagnosed guys playing the game. It is further submitted that it is respect for the creative songwriting here inside the house, "said Peter, in the end. CCP official: Goon Market Manipulation NOT against the rules, and NOT an exploit. Tinfoil hat wearing pubbies, your comments? So any comment on when items will be returned?
Not yet. CCP is in a difficult spot. Our econ team didn't cheat, nor did they exploit. They abused a poorly designed game mechanic, which isn't actionable. At the same time, they kinda HAVE to do something, if only a token gesture. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote: I suggest mining morons. You can get 500m per recruitment scam, easily. If you work hard at it, 100 billion isk in 2 months should be quite easy, that's only 200 marks.
Sorry, I've found new players (particularly those dumb enough to fall for that) are getting scarcer and scarcer thanks to the amazing negative publicity a certain alliance has been generating. You guys do realize that while your exploits have a 'wow, that's cool' factor, it's usually also followed by the thought 'Wow, am I glad I don't play that game.'
Ah, the mythical "clueless carebear". I thought it was a joke made up to scare Newbees.
No, people are always going to be dumb. And since Goons are winning the culture war, more and more want to join us every day. We're just better at this game than almost everyone else, and we easily have more fun than most. And dear god, does that **** some people off. :)
And as for our exploits -- the fact that people can get away with scamming, with infiltration, with market manipulation is literally EVE's only truly unique feature. It's literally the only reason most people play the game, in a meta concept. It sure as heck isn't due to the.... "unique"... UI or PVE mechanics.
Hey fellow Gallente pilots: What books do you read while ratting? I'm going through the latest few Discworld novels, myself. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Gogela wrote:Preceptor Stigmartyr wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote: it's true, everyone who ever manipulated the market in EVE or made money from the PI changes or Pax Amarria got banned, and their entire corp too
Bullshit. Who got banned for PI changes? Who got banned for Pax Amarria? I haven't heard any of that... what even happened? How would that happen? Got a link? Anyone? Nobody got banned. Which is entirely the point I was trying to make re: that guy who wanted to have all goons banned for what is effectively playing the market on a grand scale. Ah. I misunderstood. Yah... I mean I agree. If it's within the normal mechanics of the game it should be fine. This wasn't a coding error. It wasn't even an error. CCP just failed to anticipate. Right?
Pretty much. CCP didn't think hard enough about the design change they made, and Goons, being Goons, pushed it to it's limit.
I still think it's better that 5 people who are working with CCP to help explain and investigate the emergent gameplay of the change is better than 500 people exploiting it slowly over the course of a year, but that's just me. :) |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
Aryth wrote:It's not so much they failed to anticipate, it's more they didn't heed warnings many players gave them pre-change. Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't think they truly understood the problem until an extensive writeup was done. I spent quite some time explaining all the facets to them. It wasn't a single path. You could do this several ways. The fix is non-trivial. If you link a pricing system to something the players directly can influence, they will influence it.
Ah. That's where the big huge cockup is, then? The player influenceable "suggested price" they have in the new UI? |
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 01:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote: Ah, the mythical "clueless carebear". I thought it was a joke made up to scare Newbees.
No, people are always going to be dumb. And since Goons are winning the culture war, more and more want to join us every day. We're just better at this game than almost everyone else, and we easily have more fun than most. And dear god, does that **** some people off. :)
And as for our exploits -- the fact that people can get away with scamming, with infiltration, with market manipulation is literally EVE's only truly unique feature. It's literally the only reason most people play the game, in a meta concept. It sure as heck isn't due to the.... "unique"... UI or PVE mechanics.
Because when goons win the culture war, GMs will have to step in like they did on the Chinese server (assuming anyone still plays the game at that point) . While I'm sure this is a big ha ha **** look at em cry thing for you guys, the point is it's bad for the game. It's bad for CCP, and that's bad for everyone who likes to play eve. You might not have noticed, but we're at best static, and at worst, sinking with only people's alt accounts making up the diff. I know when my own accounts expire at the end of the month, after 9 years, I won't be re-subbing. (and, before you ask, no, you can't haz my stuff)
You say it's bad for the game, but Goons consistantly bring forth emergent gameplay. Hell, EVE has been in the news more times this year as a direct result of Goons running player events than any other reason.
This burns the pubbies out there up, but it's true: Goons are good for EVE. We're also snappy dressers, devilishly handsome, skilled in the bedroom, and better at EVE than any of you. :) |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 02:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Xython wrote:Aryth wrote:It's not so much they failed to anticipate, it's more they didn't heed warnings many players gave them pre-change. Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't think they truly understood the problem until an extensive writeup was done. I spent quite some time explaining all the facets to them. It wasn't a single path. You could do this several ways. The fix is non-trivial. If you link a pricing system to something the players directly can influence, they will influence it. Ah. That's where the big huge cockup is, then? The player influenceable "suggested price" they have in the new UI? Yes. Oh look, CCP pricing. Why, I will just fly over here to to this non-the-forge system and cycle a year's volume to myself real fast. At a hilarious mark up. Wait for the job to run on Friday. Oh look CCP value is now 68x what it was. You can figure out the rest.
And no one at CCP stopped and said "Uh, wait. We're honestly letting players influe..."
No, I know the answer to that. Either someone coded this feature in very quickly without thinking about the long term effects, or they did and just hoped no one would notice in time to affect it.
And again, CCP is in a very, very bad place: This was not an exploit (a code flaw) at all, it was a poorly designed mechanic (a design flaw) and thus they can't really do anything under their own guidelines.... But lord, the pressure for them to do something is probably quite great.
I certainly hope they don't throw you under the bus like they did Dear Leader, The Mittani. (All hail the CSM Chairman in Exile)
You mentioned that people tried to warn CCP and they didn't listen until you did a huge writeup with evidence. Am I to understand that you specifically contacted CCP earlier about this flaw and tried to warn them about the design cockup they were performing and were ignored?
Also: Where the hell is the CSM? |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ban Bindy wrote:Xython wrote:
I still think it's better that 5 people who are working with CCP to help explain and investigate the emergent gameplay of the change is better than 500 people exploiting it slowly over the course of a year, but that's just me. :)
Working with CCP? You mean making long smug posts about how much money they made and trying to cover their butts with a PR slant on their use of an exploit? Somebody who was working with CCP would have reported the problem and not tried to make a huge amount of isk from it. And then reap a huge PR bonanza from it by posting about it and making the error public. I think Goonswarm has shown CCP just how much of a friend they are.
No, but thank you for asking. I was actually talking about the private communication our Economics team sent CCP before making this smug post on our forums (and then reposting it here to stir up trouble). I can see your confusion, but let me be clear: Our Economics team specifically did this in a pattern to avoid completely destroying the economy (for example, they were specifically avoiding favoring any one faction) and communicated everything they did to CCP after they felt they had enough evidence in place that there was a severe problem that needed addressing. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
Paint wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Xython wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:they didn't help them fix the bug. they helped their wallets with the bug until ccp fixed it. there is a difference. So the only people allowed to make bug reports are those willing to fly to Iceland and donate their time as computer programmers? You make less and less sense the more you talk, PrONEncess Alia. You do know its possible to report a bug without spending a month on a grand james bond villain-esq plan to exploit the bug and announce how incredibly clever you were for exploiting it on the eve online forums right ? Just checking. It was reported, even funnier you apparently knew about it before it was reported here and didn't report it either. Good job!
Not only that, Jadeykins exploited almost 9 billion ISK before CCP stepped in. Pot, meet kettle! :D |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote: Burn Jita did just about **** all to the markets, and from my understanding, didn't really "inflict mass suffering" on anyone other than yourselves. People knew it was happening so they avoided the system for the most part. You just wasted a large portion of time because you threw a temper tantrum over Mittani getting a slap on the wrist for trying to coax everyone to get a guy to kill himself.
Yeah, they killed fifty freighters over a period of several days. I noticed that quite a few of them stopped posting when I pointed out that was a tiny fraction of Jita's usual daily traffic, and most people just went around.
That's funny, we also noticed the "LOL GEWNS" guys shutting up pretty damned quick when CCP posted a devblog about it stating that trading in Jita was down what, 50% that weekend? Not bad for a test run. Now if only we had, say, 5 trillion ISK laying around for a nice month long go at it... Right around the time the wardec changes were messed with again making it hard to wardec us and screw with our fun... |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:I said something like this was possible when they listed the changes that were coming.
I was told no one would want to do the work to pull it off.
Seems I new better.
This is all CCPs fault, this was a super obvious thing. It was one of the reasons i was against the FW changes that and station lockout. Most of the stuff wrong that is happening in FW was super obvious and long term bad ideas.
There is no way to fix this without being unfair about it now.
I give goons props for pulling off what I suggested to others ages ago. I dont think they should be punished for this. CCP will have to give them something in fair exchange for what they pulled off.
maybe trillions is the going price for the right to name a system or two.
Holy crap, I'm actually agreeing with one of your posts. +1. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
935
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Protip Buying things with legally earned LP from the loyalty point store is not "exploiting."
This just in: Jade Constantine: Jewball "not exploiting." |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
936
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 03:55:00 -
[28] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:There's not much point in it. I figure that EvE is reaching a tipping point, and goons are looking to push it over the side. A few more jobs like this, and new subs will probably dry up entirely.
Not to burst your little bubble, but subscriptions are actually going up for the first time in a long while. ;)
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
936
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Xython wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote: Burn Jita did just about **** all to the markets, and from my understanding, didn't really "inflict mass suffering" on anyone other than yourselves. People knew it was happening so they avoided the system for the most part. You just wasted a large portion of time because you threw a temper tantrum over Mittani getting a slap on the wrist for trying to coax everyone to get a guy to kill himself.
Yeah, they killed fifty freighters over a period of several days. I noticed that quite a few of them stopped posting when I pointed out that was a tiny fraction of Jita's usual daily traffic, and most people just went around. That's funny, we also noticed the "LOL GEWNS" guys shutting up pretty damned quick when CCP posted a devblog about it stating that trading in Jita was down what, 50% that weekend? Not bad for a test run. Now if only we had, say, 5 trillion ISK laying around for a nice month long go at it... Right around the time the wardec changes were messed with again making it hard to wardec us and screw with our fun... If you did that I might be able to convince CCP soundwave to revert the wardec changes to 1.0 (or better yet) actually produce a decent compromise on the 1.1 fix that didn't massively disadvantage smaller alliances fighting much larger aggressors with the aid of hisec allies.
You bragged about exploiting the wardec changes. You knew they were going to be fixed, including a "get out of responsibility free" card in your post -- claiming if they were fixed, it was cause supposedly cried to CCP. They were fixed. You claimed we cried to CCP. Evidence that we actually were looking forward to the foreverwar was ignored in lieu of the lie pubbies tell themselves so they can sleep at night.
Let it go. The game isn't fair in such a way that a 100 man alliance can fight off a 7000 man alliance. Nor is it designed to be unbalanced in such a way. And trying to bleat and moan until CCP somehow makes it "fair" like that is never going to happen, because that's stupid on a level that almost matches the stupidity of people who run 23 ice miner bot accounts at the same time.
If you want to fight Goonswarm like that, make your own alliance. Come visit VFK with 254 of your closest friends. We'll leave the light on for you. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
936
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote: Not to burst your little bubble, but subscriptions are actually going up for the first time in a long while. ;)
*Fingers in Ears* "La La La, Evidence that does not fit my worldview doesn't count!!!! La La la!!"
|
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
938
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 04:28:00 -
[31] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:RougeOperator wrote:So 900t to be able to name a system and its planets.
this was nowhere close to 900tn, it was "only" around 5tn It theoretically was an infinite money loop. the real value is not important.
Theoretically every action in the game is an infinite money loop. Lets not get ourselves worked up on "potential isk". |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:39:00 -
[32] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Paint wrote: Good to know, I guess the Mittani Banning,
A 30 banning is not what anyone else would have gotten. The EULA suggests a permaban
The EULA applies to outside of the game now? (Hint: No.)
The Mittani banning was a travesty of justice, only done because a bunch of buttmad sockpuppets started attacking the CCP / Sony partnership. It was a masterpiece of metagaming, but remember this: For all the frothy ranting about how "Goons want to destroy the game", when faced with the opportunity to attack Goons via literally trying to destroy the game, the Pubbies actually tried to ruin the game just to spite Goons.
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: He voluntarily stepped down originally, IIRC.
Close. He stepped down from CSM6 knowing CSM7 was starting in a few days. CCP intentionally misread his post in order to suggest he was stepping down from CSM7 and, in a bit of a loophole, banned him at that time. Since they banned him at that exact time, he will be allowed to run for CSM8 -- which was very intentional on CCP's part.
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Gee, cheat and get it confiscated. Again, beats the bans that members might have gotten if CCP ruled it an exploit.
You are intentionally missing the point. This is not about the "exploited" materials being seized. CCP is also seizing unrelated funds and resources. This would be like getting a warning for speeding and coming home to find your house impounded. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:44:00 -
[33] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:And I anticipate much tears and threadnaughts when they make their decision, because I doubt that you're going to like it.
Yeah, we totally are in fear of CCP banning 7000+ players, most of which have at least 2 accounts, because some fusty boil-brained apple-john sockpuppet characters cried about us on the forums. Quaking in our boots. :)
Having said that, we actually do like CCP, we do love EVE, and we fight tooth and nail every day both to get new players to join, to make the experience memorable to those who "get it," and to keep the festering themepark fools from ruining the game we love.
Case in point: You guys might not remember killing your 10,000th Battleship Rat, but I can guarantee you you'll remember how Goons spun Faction Warfare into 5 trillion isk in a year. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 05:48:00 -
[34] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Xython wrote:Case in point: You guys might not remember killing your 10,000th Battleship Rat, but I can guarantee you you'll remember how Goons spun Faction Warfare into 5 trillion isk in a year. Let's see, at a mil each, that would be when I made 10billion from battleships ... ... oh goodness I think I've passed 10,000 Battleship rats...
Depressing thought, isn't it?
I want more escalations. Different kinds of escalations. Dynamic anoms and complexes. CCP needs to hire a few interns and have them do nothing but design new anom layouts, darnit. I want to go to a Sanctum (haha, just kidding, no one does Sanctums anymore) and see 1 of 100 different layouts, each different. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
939
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 06:01:00 -
[35] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:InternetSpaceship wrote: Wait, so you mean we have a bad reputation in Eve? Well holy ****, we need to get on that, stat. Thanks for the heads up.
No, I mean Goonswarm is giving eve a bad reputation with potential new players.
Holy christ, you must be really comfortable in that echo chamber. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
942
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:12:00 -
[36] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: I'm not faced with any consequences, no matter how much you insist on it, because I wasn't involved in this scheme myself in any way. Are you beginning to understand?
Guilt by association. One goon can make all of you look bad. It's that simple. That guy standing up with his goonswarm tag on proclaiming how he made a much more powerful entity then goons look bad? That makes all of you look bad. If it was limited to the game, I wouldn't give a ****. But you are also making all the other players look bad as well. Do you know how much **** eve players take in other forums just because of that **** Mittens pulled at fan fest, followed by his ranting bullshit speeches? Heh cool CCP should follow a "guilt by association" policy, that'll end well for them, punitive actions against entire alliances for the actions of a few members
Ooh, I like this idea, I'll get an alt into World Welfare Works Association real quick and get the entire alliance banned for I dunno, posting rumors or something. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
942
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 08:47:00 -
[37] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:yes. exploit is exploit. ISK may not have been created from thin air, but LP was.
No it wasn't. It was created using the Faction Warfare system. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
946
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:13:00 -
[38] - Quote
So I just woke up from a couple hour nap -- has there been any actual updates rather than CCP Sreegs wading back into the murky depths of this thread and promptly getting trolled?
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
946
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:25:00 -
[39] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:I don't disagree. We should have notified the people we did things to.
So, learning experience then?
GROUP HUG, EVERYONE! |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
948
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:26:00 -
[40] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:Maybe you guys should make things better rather than going on asset grabbing rampages when a group of players understands the impact of your changes better than you do. If that ever happens I'll agree with you.
Ok. Please see this thread for a prime example of it happening. |
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
948
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:29:00 -
[41] - Quote
Imiarr Timshae wrote:Just to save Screegs the typing:
The bottom line is you have to tolerate what we do or go make your own internet spaceship game to play.
The scary thing is, some of the BOB people that we threw out of EVE actually did that. Some mecha version of EVE. Very early in it's development but was kinda interesting. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
949
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:40:00 -
[42] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Man, only here would they have the hubris to argue the GMs are wrong and they are right. If CCP gives in to them its pretty much over lol They will OFFICIALLY have lost control
If they do an investigation, and find that the 5 Goon Heroes that did this did not exploit any flaws in the game, and thus are pretty much honor bound to give the assets back... then it's not really "losing control". It's "doing what's right."
Oh, sorry, I forgot. Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
949
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 16:51:00 -
[43] - Quote
Danfen Fenix wrote:Xython wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Man, only here would they have the hubris to argue the GMs are wrong and they are right. If CCP gives in to them its pretty much over lol They will OFFICIALLY have lost control If they do an investigation, and find that the 5 Goon Heroes that did this did not exploit any flaws in the game, and thus are pretty much honor bound to give the assets back... then it's not really "losing control". It's "doing what's right." Oh, sorry, I forgot. Screwing Goons is always "what's right", even if it damages EVE. Last I checked, I thought the community pretty much thought goons had CCP in their back pockets? What happened? Something not go your way, so suddenly everyones out to get you ?
CCP is in Goon pockets whenever CCP does something that people don't like.
CCP is the noble hero saving everyone from the evil Goons whenever CCP does somethign that people do like.
Goons are Goons either way. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
949
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:16:00 -
[44] - Quote
Kazanir wrote:Kazanir wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code. That is absolutely not true, and to people who DO understand the mechanic it kind of calls into question whether you understand what you are talking about. The mechanic involved has nothing to do with timing or a "flaw" in the code. The system worked precisely as it was designed to. I'll make a larger post explaining it, but I wanted to put this out there first. To expand on this: The problem here had nothing to do with timing. It had to do with items that have no market volume, because they are useless, and yet are available from the Faction Warfare store. For example: Let's say there is an item, which I'll call 'Faction Warfare Boondoggle 44-z0r' for the sake of simplicity. This item has literally no use in the game except allowing the pilot who has it fitted to always efficiently complete every z0r chain he sees. Because few people care about this ability, the market price of this item languishes around 5 million ISK, with about 100 of them actually being traded per month. The Faction Warfare Boondoggle 44-z0r, meanwhile, is available from LP stores for 5 million ISK and 5000 LP. This makes it extremely unprofitable to buy with LP. But, now let's say that I take advantage of the item's low market volume to increase its average price. I do this by buying 5,000 of the 44-z0r Boondoggle (from the LP store, naturally), putting them on the market for 500M ISK apiece, and then buying out my own sell order. This costs me a tiny amount of ISK in the form of broker fees, as well as 25B ISK to get the material initially. But now the average price of that item is just under 500M ISK, since my own sales (to myself) utterly dominate the normal market volume of the Boondoggle in question. Now all of a sudden the worth of this item is 500M ISK. That means that for each Boondoggle I blow up, I get 50,000 LP. Basically I can now buy 50,000 LP for the cost of 5M ISK and 5,000 LP invested. (This is 111.11 ISK per LP, right around the actual value cited in Aryth's article.) Now then, what is the takeaway from my explanation? The takeaway is that there is no timing issue like Sreegs is saying. The market value of that item isn't affected by me repeatedly blowing it up for profit. It still has no use and it still isn't being sold on the market. I couldn't do this to a normal item, because the sales volume on the normal market would make my attempt at manipulation invisible. This is the key point. This doesn't depend on timing -- it doesn't matter when CCP updates their internal price index, because the average market price of this item is going to remain around 500M ISK. The market won't bring it back down because the market has no use for it. What we are looking at here is not a bug or a programming issue or an abuse of a timing problem. It is a design flaw. Using an average market index is a design flaw because it can be manipulated by players in the case of items that have no market volume. And I'm pretty sure that all of the players of EVE see a large difference between taking advantage of a design flaw and exploiting a programming bug (like the Ferrogel dupe.)
Best explanation so far. Thank you! |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
949
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:18:00 -
[45] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Kazanir wrote: Using an average market index is a design flaw because it can be manipulated by players in the case of items that have no market volume. And I'm pretty sure that all of the players of EVE see a large difference between taking advantage of a design flaw and exploiting a programming bug (like the Ferrogel dupe.)
How long does it take for that price to change and how long does it stay that way?
If you don't know, perhaps you should bow out of this conversation. But to my knowledge, Aryth posts in the OP someplace that it is ran by hand by someone at CCP on Friday evenings. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
949
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:one day goons are going to cure cancer
And the publords will ***** at us for causing a population crisis. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
949
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:32:00 -
[47] - Quote
This whole thing is a win win for anyone who likes good fourm rage. Either CCP is going to let this go (and the pubbies will EXPLODE), or they're not (and everyone who values the sandbox will EXPLODE). There may be a 3rd option, but I certainly ain't seeing it. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
951
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:38:00 -
[48] - Quote
Ariel Marquette wrote:Xython wrote:This whole thing is a win win for anyone who likes good fourm rage. Either CCP is going to let this go (and the pubbies will EXPLODE), or they're not (and everyone who values the sandbox will EXPLODE). There may be a 3rd option, but I certainly ain't seeing it. Goons are "everyone who values the sandbox"? You really do think too much of yourselves. No one other than Goons and Goon cronies (looking at you, TEST) are going to be upset about anything bad happening to Goons.
I know this is going to be hard for a sockpuppet to understand, but not everyone who supports us are actually Goons. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
951
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 17:51:00 -
[49] - Quote
One thing to take from this is to make sure if you do something like this to prove a point, make sure you do it on an alt, or at the very least keep good accounting notes. |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
952
|
Posted - 2012.06.23 19:23:00 -
[50] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:MeBiatch wrote:
ccp is like fox news... fair and balanced
Really, if you get down to it though, tossing out the alliance mechanic, limiting the size of corps, and erasing 9 years of accumulated wealth and SP would, actually, make the game fair and balanced.
"It would be fair and balanced if CCP would violate every guiding principle they have ever lived by in order to specifically punish a group of people I don't like!"
Get a clue. And a life. |
|
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
963
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:04:00 -
[51] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:I'm about to shoot someone hostile to me, should I check first with a GM whether this is still allowed?
|
|
|
|