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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 48 post(s) |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
412
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Posted - 2012.06.21 17:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Posting in a thread where goons helped me make 8.7b isk last saturday for 4 hours play.
(they really ruined my sandbox)
Maybe you can afford some allies now. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
412
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Posted - 2012.06.21 17:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Skye Aurorae wrote:I'm glad to hear that this wasn't some magic exploit, no isk was created from thin air, this money came from other people.
Really this is taking lots of isk being injected into the economy by ratters and mission runners and storing it up safely in the wallets of individuals who clearly understand the Eve economy and have a vested interest in keeping it healthy.
We actually did Eve a favor and sunk quite a lot of isk from the economy! After all, most LP store items cost 1000 isk/LP to buy, and lets not forget all the broker fees involved! |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
413
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Posted - 2012.06.21 17:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
We'd argue that there was no exploit (unlike things in the past like the Ferrogel dupe), merely an intended mechanic stretched to a legitimate extreme, but we're clearly biased. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
418
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Posted - 2012.06.21 17:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:You know, if Jade does have sources in GSF leadership it would explain why he stated he knew for a fact GSF leadership were afraid of a foreverwar :V No source in GSF leadership. Aryth merely does not know how to use Twitter. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
418
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Posted - 2012.06.21 17:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:I read their document a couple of nights ago You "read our document", eh? A few days ago, eh? I guess that means you didn't actually make 8.7b, then, since that document was literally released 1 hour ago. Lots of us made billions, regardless of whether we knew about the manipulation or not. Every Minmatar that had saved up their millions of LP cashed out gloriously, albeit not on the scale of the manipulators. 8.7 billion is completely feasible given the opportunity that opened up. BTW, thanks for releasing the info and removing the artificial prop-up. You wouldn't believe how I excited I am that the Amarr have less to complain about now, this severely cuts into the "Boo-hoo minnies are steamrolling us the system is so unfair". I'd much rather have the warzone control based on the fighting merit of the two militias. If Tier 5 is indeed much more difficult to obtain, even with all the systems held by the Minmatar militia, we'll know here pretty soon, and it will mean the system is much less conducive to "snowballing" as the "losing" factions have complained about. If we are able to hit Tier 5 again, than it nukes the 3p33n claim that we only could ever achieve Tier 5 with Goon support. Either way its a win-win. You just made my life a lot easier - maybe not that of my militia, of course, but for me personally who's job it is to monitor the state of the warzone and assess the functionality and balance of the mechanics. You've cut through the noise quite a bit by allowing the war to just play itself out, without the skewed manipulation effort. This also means the Amarr are more likely to invest in actually winning their own war, instead of simply throwing alts into the Minnie militia to sip at our juice-fountain, if the days of the Tier 5 spike have come to a close for a while. Nicely done.
We didn't want Tier 5 for this very reason - we know that lots of people who would jump in on it. But we got a little overzealous donating LP and got you guys within 20 points or less, and I guess ya'll did the rest.
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
418
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Posted - 2012.06.21 18:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Derus Grobb wrote:Is this an exploit? It doesn't seem like the game should work this way.
We'd argue no. It was all within game mechanics - no ferrogel dupes. But as always, the final verdict is in CCP's hands. And to be fair, we are obviously biased. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
419
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Posted - 2012.06.21 18:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:corestwo wrote:We'd argue that there was no exploit (unlike things in the past like the Ferrogel dupe), merely an intended mechanic stretched to a legitimate extreme, but we're clearly biased. i'd argue the same thing, seems pretty much all developers do this when they let some thing slip through the net. instead of just saying "yeah we missed it, bravo for noticing and making the best of it" they go on a some kind of crusade fueled by their own embarrassment, it happened to blizzard activision with their latest major content patch. We'll see.
Regardless, we're part of Eve history. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
423
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Posted - 2012.06.21 18:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Pyrus Octavius wrote:My personal feeling regardless is, any gains made in this fashion should be confiscated. I don't think I care about bans, but the gains be taken away. I'm not a market guru what so ever, and even though someone said in here that the market would return to normal in 30 days, the whole system was manipulated, and this hurts innocent bystanders, whom will never get their ISK back.
Some time ago, I was holding a very large stash of Plasmoids. Then, some clown came along and bought all the plasmoids in Jita, relisted them considerably higher, and put up a big buy order that was well above what I had bought at. So naturally, I bombed out his order and put up my remaining plasmoids on sells at the price at which his buy order had been. Within a day, plenty of new Plasmoids orders had filled in below me, and the market tumbled.
Now, this guy tried to manipulate the system and got hurt. I'm pretty sure he never got the isk back, too.
The moral of the story here is that the market is PvP, and there are no innocent bystanders. If CCP elects for consequences, so be it, but your reason for them is laughable.
Xuixien wrote:Aryth wrote:This also meant that we could cash out our hundreds of billions of ISK worth of minerals at prices far higher than on the market. For example, we cashed out Megacyte at 3300, Zydrine 1400, Nocxium at 900. So some of the very largest stockpiles of pre-drone nerf minerals no longer exists. Tying back into the mineral manipulation we have been engaging in. The test quickly became even bigger than anticipated because upon release, FW turned out to have a bug that rewarded LP for both dropped and exploded cargo, doubling the rewards. So we went to work, sending hundreds of billions of ISK worth of highend minerals to Yulai to be blown up. Why Yulai? Anyone enlisted in faction warfare gets shot at by faction police of the opposing factions. Yulai and its entire constellation are owned by CONCORD, which is neutral territory. Thus, both FW alts could move through peacefully. Also, Yulai has an GÇ£Inner CircleGÇ¥ station, which was just plain funny. How fitting that Yulai, once the most important system in Eve, finally becomes relevant again. Yulai, you say? Interesting.I'll have to go visit some time. Feel free, its not like anything is happening there anymore.
ps - there are no kills posted because we took steps to make sure they didn't get posted. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
423
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Posted - 2012.06.21 19:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Nyrak wrote:Ironic how CCP Soundwave was all for cutting out research points for us little folks since he saw it as too easy of a passive income to give to Factional Warfare as a reward. I wonder what he thinks now? He did predict that FW would break somehow during an interview with TenTonHammer. If I recall, he even said he WANTED it to break.
Probably not quite what he had in mind, but there you go. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
426
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Posted - 2012.06.21 19:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:corestwo wrote:its not like anything is happening there anymore. Well, according to killboards nothing has happened in that entire constellation - for the past 4 months. corestwo wrote:ps - there are no kills posted because we took steps to make sure they didn't get posted. Riiiiight. I believe you.
I guess those blue posts confirming it just means that we're trolling you and CCP is just participating in the trolling, right? |
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
427
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Posted - 2012.06.21 19:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Agent Type wrote:Good god. I am glad to hear CCP is doing some of investigation into the matter.. while I think it is great that players are able to use their intelligence and dedication to make huge amounts of ISK I would hate to see any issues cropping up in EVE online due to that amount of ISK being created in such a short period of time. Ratting, bounties, incursion rewards and mission rewards inject dozens or hundreds of billions of isk per day into Eve.
I'm just sayin'. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
429
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Posted - 2012.06.21 20:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Amnesia Amsterdam wrote:Aryth wrote:Amnesia Amsterdam wrote:Hats off for working out the intricacies of the exploit, but why make yourself look like a douchbag with the anti-semitic language? Jewbal? "biggest jew haul"? . Dickhead. It isn't a slander, it's the name we refer to a group of 8 guys within Goons. A hybrid of jewish+cabal. The greater economic focused group is referred to as gs_isk. I am not sure how you arrived at haul at all. Okay, If that is the case then I unreservedly retract my objections and post. Apologies. However you have to admit to the uninitiated the term Jewbal and the sentance "But it will still end up being the biggest jew haul of a new game system since PI, and it beats PI hands down." might look a just little anti -semetic. Just sayin like...
That term has longstanding use in MMOs to mean someone who makes money, you know. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
430
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Posted - 2012.06.21 20:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
Opodiphthera Eucalypti Lepdoptera wrote:I was going to quit EVE because I was bored. This whole thing gave me a new perspective for the game. It looks more interesting somehow.
Cool, we saved a subscription for Eve.
Imagine how many new subscriptions they could get if they publicized this as a demonstration of the sandbox?
Jayrendo Karr wrote:You just gave 10,000 people 100 billion each, the market is about to go apeshit crazy . No we didn't. This was a small group of people, not every single goon. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
434
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Posted - 2012.06.21 21:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:Well played. I have but one question: why didn't you make Caldari alts for even more profit? Quote:On a lark one of us went one morning and fully upgraded all 13 Amarr systems to level 5. The next day this was repeated along with the 2 systems they won from the day before, allowing the Amarr faction to finally hit T2.
Minmatar paid 1/2 base price due to already having tier 4, plus it gave an advantageous multiplier - you get 5% extra LP per level above tier 2 for kills.
That said...have you LOOKED at caldari navy ravens and scorpions lately? |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.21 21:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
gulftobay wrote:Take the isk back CCP if you want to retain any credibility to the majority of your player base. If this thread is any indication of the feelings of the majority of the playerbase, your opinion is in the minority.
Ranger 1 wrote:Nicely done, congratulations gentlemen. I appreciate that you tipped off CCP after making your fortunes, something you didn't necessarily have to do. My new Amarr FW alt should become a lot more interesting shortly. Given that Minmatar have lost something like 35 points in the past day... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.21 21:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:CCP have never once said they will fix the situation. Only *IF* it "merits" attention.
CCP has fixed, at least with a bandaid, the things that made this possible, and I'm sure that they plan to put a more permanent patch into place as well. The only thing remaining to be "fixed" is whether they take action against us for it. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.21 22:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy.
By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. So it's ok for CCP to gift it's pet players billions in isk in the form of T2BPO but when goons take you to the cleaners using brains they did wrong? Ehm no I'm glad CCP now knows what it's like to be an EVE inventor getting ripped off while trying to do an honest days work. Good Job goons, keep it up. You fight for the common EVE player against CCP and the pets. Burn New Eden in the name of the helpless. Goons have stolen CCP's silver spoon that they use to feed their pets and CCP is pissed off, good work goons!
Spawning a T2 BPO is pretty clear cut, you know. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.21 23:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Dirk Magnum wrote:I enjoy Goons. Also I'm pretty sure that it can't be considered exploiting when it comes to profiting off of calculations that were deliberately programmed into the game, even if CCP later decides those calculations weren't achieving what they wanted. Anyone remember when in a certain kind of wormhole you could hit your own fleetmembers with tracking disruptors to give their turrets unlimited range and tracking? Pretty sure nobody got banned after that news got broken (publicly, on the forum.)
I'm also pretty sure no one got banned or had isk confiscated when the insurance and shifting mineral prices suddenly (and, until they changed it, permanently) let people self destruct battleships for a profit, too. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 00:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:I believe that this is the applicable section from the Terms of Service, aka Rules of Conduct:
23. You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. You may not communicate the existence of any exploitable bug to others directly or through a public forum. Bugs should be reported through the bug reporting tool on our website.
Note that the general definition of a software "bug" is not limited to coding errors, but includes design errors, as well. In CCP's case, anything that CCP decides to be an "exploit" and for which they implement a code fix is considered a "bug", with regards to this section of the TOS. Also, note that CCP makes no distinction between exploiting a bug before or after it is discovered and announced by CCP - ie. exploiting a bug at any time is considered to be a no-no.
In the past, CCP has been rather strict about exploit violations. They end up costing RL money in terms of dev time to fix any damages, and it usually isn't good business to encourage players to look for and exploit similar bugs in future releases.
I guess they'd best go back and ban everyone who took advantage of insurance fraud, then. Or everyone who took advantage of NPC sell orders for PI. Or... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 00:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:This is about as much of a game exploit as Jade doing a forever war against goons.
It's not an exploit guys. So we've got Marlona Sky and Jade Constantine, both world renowned goon haters, saying this isn't a game exploit.
I think that pretty much settles it. |
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 02:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Jade Constantine wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:This is about as much of a game exploit as Jade doing a forever war against goons.
It's not an exploit guys. Only likely difference is our lovely forever war is getting horribly and totally nerfed :( The FW thing also got horribly and totally nerfed. That bit I don't quite understand - ie exactly how it was possible to stop this happening again ... what was done?
Short term they reverted our price changes and probably turned the price updater off as well. Long term? I'm sure they'll think of something. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 02:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
...what the heck did I just read? |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 14:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:This quote from the op makes it pretty clear that there was a bug that "doubled the rewards" and though CCP patched the bug out "the damage was done" and the cabal had the "seed LP" for the scheme.
I guess there is a question (that only CCP can answer in their internal enquiry) of whether this bug was reported by the op at the time it was being used to gain the seed LP for the ongoing project. You know, we can say its a bug, but we don't really actually know if it was a bug or if ccp just went "You know, double rewarding players doesn't make any sense, does it." |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 14:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Carlos Aranda wrote:Lapine Davion wrote: Knowing Aryth, he will probably responsibly reinvest it.
My point is still, when do we see the fruits of this? I do not see anything. Neither I see goons fly better ships than before, nor I see i.e. Improved Implants for 40 mil. Same with Tech. I guess, the answer "Switzerland" was more right than the guy really thought. The money just gets sucked in the wallets of a couple guys, who are too rich anyways, kind of like the Marcus billions or Abachi billions etc. Who knows what goes on in the minds of such men? Maybe he will use it to buy plex and donate it to some relief fund.
The fact that you would confuse us for VV...yeah, we actually find that kind of offensive.
Carlos Aranda wrote: They should not be expensiv, if you really are filfthy rich. Or you could upgrade the Maelstroms in Machariels. I.e. Snuff box fly a Machariel fleet without owning Tech moons or LP shop heist.
You're once again operating under the assumption that all of goonswarm participated, which is not the case. Although goonswarm does already reimburse machariels in fleet ops, you just have to have a ridiculously high level of skills to qualify. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 15:21:00 -
[25] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Carlos Aranda wrote: . Others also have of course ship reimbursement programs. In other words, the wealth does not reach the average Goon. Where is that money?
Why should they give ISK to the average Goon? Even the communist USSR brass had their nice villas while everybody else sucked the hard nuts. Anyway here's the fairest punishment for those 5 guys: 2 years of obligatory work in CCP as coders and QA testers. Either this will be a suitable Dante's alike retaliation and will make them experiment their own stuff. And / or EvE's game code quality will increase 3 fold. Win on all the line.
CCP cannot afford to pay any of us, especially if they would want us in Iceland. We may be happy to do remote consulting, of course. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 17:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
Zedrik Cayne wrote:I'm waiting for the graphs.
CCP Diagoras, the graphs please :)
Stacked bar graphs showing where LP is being gained and where LP is being spent over a three month period. Graphed daily for all four factions should show these shenannigans at a glance.
Any chance, lord of the graphs, that we may see these?
As well as line graphs of the prices of the items in question (As they should be easily discernable from the previous graphs)
I'm having troubles explaining this to some of my eve co workers and others.
And for our goon overlords, can we please get your pretty graphs? I'm sure that combined with the graphs Diagoras may grant us, a view into just how bad this could have gotten if this had gone wide?
The fact that Diagoras is on vacation currently is probably part of the reason why we don't think CCP actually noticed our activities until we told them. I mean, Sreegs said they noticed market manipulations, but that was only part of it... Had Diagoras been around and active on twitter, I'm sure someone would have asked something like "so how much LP have FW pilots earned?" and his eyes would have popped out of his head when he did the DB query. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 17:36:00 -
[27] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote: it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.
Yes, "taking the existing game mechanics to a significant but legitimate extreme" and "abusing a bug that allows your towers to continue to run and produce ferrogel even when inputs are no longer present" are totally the same thing.
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Karash Amerius wrote:Best thing about this thread is Jade jumping on the grandiose bandwagon because he just can't help himself. I don't think the irony of him thanking them for helping him earn billions and congratulating them on their genius discovery is missed on anyone, either! The fact that both Jade and Marlona Sky congratulated us and even said its probably not an exploit is pretty amusing, yes. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 17:38:00 -
[28] - Quote
The considerably different tone in these articles is amusing. Guess which of these authors does not like goons, and which either likes us or is ambivalent?
(hint the answer is that I'm pretty sure Brendan Drain was the guy who mittens ripped a new one over his sensationalist "reporting" of the fanfest fiasco) |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 17:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:corestwo wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote: it just seems on the level of ppl that could duplicate minerals at a POS. It only hurts the game, I'm not a fan, sorry.
Yes, "taking the existing game mechanics to a significant but legitimate extreme" and "abusing a bug that allows your towers to continue to run and produce ferrogel even when inputs are no longer present" are totally the same thing. The only people I've seen use the word legitimate are goons and people supporting their argument. Unfortunately for them, CCP has not used this word. In fact, they're using anytonyms of legit. Not a good sign goonies /o\ Yes, CCP's decision is king here, as always, and if they label it an exploit, that's their perogative. However, most players - the ones without an axe to grind, anyway - can look at this and tell that there is a clear difference between an obvious glitch such as in the ferrogel case, and this.
Vokanic wrote:and in both cases it will drive new players to eve. and thats why this is such a fine edged blade that ccp dance on. (and no other game company ever will I suspect)
Indeed. Stories like this, stories about massive corp thefts and scams, stories of huge fleet battles - this is what draws people to eve. Stories of mining rocks in empire? Not so much... |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 17:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Either way, CCP must act, else this game is rigged for eternity with so much wealth at the hands of so few.
You think that "this much wealth" in so few players hands is anything new?
For example, have you looked at how much Somer Blink has paid out lately, and then considered how much his rake on top of that much be? It makes us look like a bunch of beggars. |
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corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 18:22:00 -
[31] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Its not an exploit til CCP declares it so, and you can't be punished for it if its not an exploit. After they declare it so(I would consider Sreegs' post a declaration that it is so) any further use of said exploit because punishable. Funny, I read sreegs' post as "We're investigating and deciding whether we will let this stand or not, and in the meantime don't do it anymore." |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 18:57:00 -
[32] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Imawuss wrote:People who think this was not an exploit or at the very least a bug are kidding themselves. If left in-game it would be game breaking. With the amount the goons took from this (i'm actually not sure on this but from hearsay i think a lot) it may already be game breaking though we will have to wait and see if CCP takes no retroactive steps.
To be fair though should anyone receive any punishment? I think not, just based on how EVE represents itself and the activities it promotes, but anyone thinking an unlimited isk faucet is not a bug/ exploit or game breaking is kidding themselves. The isk made must be taken back, otherwise the inflation that will incur will ruin this game for new players. iirc, there is around 300 Trillion isk in EVE circulation. This was 5 trillion, or just over 1% of the total value of the game. That should give some perspective on whether or not this is significant. Oh, and there are people with considerably more than 1% of the total isk in EVE in their wallet, like Chribba. Is he breaking the game? No. Because Chribba didn't exploit the game to get his. How about the scope of the LP/LP items gained vs the current market supply. The impact on hundreds if not thousands of missioners LP who actually played the game the way it's intended. Might that be worth discussing? Or are they to be ignored because they aren't cool and edgy trying to figure out ways to violate the EULA everyday?
If we'd gone out of our way to purposefully and maliciously crash the LP markets - which we easily could have - you might have something to talk about here.
As it is, implants and whatnot are just as valuable as ever. We have a delicate touch. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 19:00:00 -
[33] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Inspiration wrote:I wonder if the EULA mentions anything about cheating NPC...which is what happened in this case. The same could theoretically be done with insurance, be it that those are based on mineral value and that is not a small market you can over time just set the price without anyone noticing it. oooo.... I see a way to finally make use of the EAS. It was done with insurance for months in the past. Insurance Fraud on a huge scale occurred for many months when mineral prices were lower than CCP payouts. So there is definitely some precedent for this. And that actually did create new isk in the economy. This didn't; all we did was transfer isk from many, many players to ourselves. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 19:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ayllia Saken wrote:If it stands then Station Trading and Industry, are all "second rank" activities, like level 3 missions, and all true Industry greats should spend their time reading devblogs line by line, and gaming various situations via Excel or in-game. The very public announcement and boasting increases the perceived impact of this ploy, and also the need for action.
This has always been the way to make huge piles of money. The OP was already very nearly a trillionaire thanks to the patch that introduced PI, for example. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 19:11:00 -
[35] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Aryth wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Inspiration wrote:I wonder if the EULA mentions anything about cheating NPC...which is what happened in this case. The same could theoretically be done with insurance, be it that those are based on mineral value and that is not a small market you can over time just set the price without anyone noticing it. oooo.... I see a way to finally make use of the EAS. It was done with insurance for months in the past. Insurance Fraud on a huge scale occurred for many months when mineral prices were lower than CCP payouts. So there is definitely some precedent for this. I know. I self destructed a few hundred iteron IIIs as a noob to make some easy isk to buy a mission domi with. e: I was referring to manipulating the price of EAS if insurance gets linked to market price That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected. It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :)
Insurance had nothing to do with what we were doing, you know. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
467
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Posted - 2012.06.22 19:40:00 -
[36] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:corestwo wrote:Inspiration wrote:That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected.
It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :) Insurance had nothing to do with what we were doing, you know. Duh.....but if you look closely, the core of the whole matter is using market manipulation to get NPC favors! FW made it extra easy and lucrative as playing both sites gives extra control over the outcome! The same thing could be done with insurance to a lesser extend as that too is rooted in in-game market statistics.
It actually can't be, because once upon a time people did make many billions of isk (injecting new isk into the economy, which this didn't do) off of insurance fraud; CCP has since changed the formula. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:02:00 -
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Cutter Isaacson wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Did I mention insurance fraud? Or Pax Amarria? I do not believe that I did. All I said was that anyone caught knowingly abusing a flaw in the system can, and will, have that profit removed. Whether that is by putting wallets in the negative, or by removing items, such as in this case. Insurance fraud and pax amarria refinery was also "game mechanics" which could be (and was) used to create resources out of thin air. Indeed, and if I recall correctly people got in trouble both both. Not to mention that insurance fraud is no longer possible because, shock horror, the flawed mechanic was fixed. As for Pax Amarria issues, that would only ever have been a minuscule issue at best, since supply of said item was extremely limited and thus any damage done very minor in comparison to more recent events.
I know for a fact that no one got in trouble for pax amarria, because I myself bought 40 billion isk worth and never heard a peep. And no, the supply was not "limited", you could literally buy as much as you wanted.
No one got in trouble for insurance fraud, either. |
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:06:00 -
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Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.
Including many thousands of datacores that Aryth bought before all of this, of course, off the market. Good luck getting CCP to own up to that mistaken, of course. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:07:00 -
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Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. You do know you can file a bug report without inflating your wallet right? If the wallet gets inflated in the process, it's logical to expect CCP will fix the whole problem. The WHOLE problem, not the whole problem minus your finders fee.
Please justify CCP taking assets that were not earned through this. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:19:00 -
[40] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:Ghost Xray wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. Or rather, if you're going to abuse the system do it at your own risk. Confessing your crimes doesn't seem to get you off the hook. If your interest is in helping improve the experience in the EvE community, just report the problem without abusing said problem. Then you can pat yourself on the back and maybe earn a little space respect. This could have been abused quietly for months. It wasn't. Many were already prepping to do it judging from the responses in this thread. The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. well see, no They really aren't trying to punish you I'm sure. They are just trying to reverse the problem you simultaneously pointed out and created. If they wanted to punish you they'd ban you. You came forward, with much hubris, confidence, swagger, gloat and smug. They are fixing the problem as best they can. Next time? Sure, keep it to yourself. But when they do figure it out, that will be your ban ticket. Is doing the right thing for the game and community a concept you are incapable of understanding?
How is taking assets purchased legitimately from the market weeks prior to any of this happening acceptable? Because that literally just happened. |
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corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:32:00 -
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Weaselior wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote: How can knowingly abusing a game mechanic you KNOW is broken, be OK?
pos bowling was always obviously broken but nobody ever got banned anywho i expect the gms are operating on a philosophy of seize first, investigate later to minimize the potential for the trail to be cold, we shall see where things shake out
Lets hope so. I'd hate for the concept that CCP no longer values their own sandbox to go viral. Bad PR is no fun. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:44:00 -
[42] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. give it a rest. No one sane thinks that while you giggled at your assets window and blew up freighter after freighter of your own and wrote your 15 page fit-for-Time-magazine OP you didn't know that was all going back. if you did, wow... you seriously shot yourself in the foot with a bonehead move. That is a type of criminal genius crossed with ineptness not seen outside of TV and movies. Your whole OP reads like when the criminal tells hero his complete plan not realizing he is buying enough time and providing enough evidence to put him away. They seized assets that existed before the patch.
And we very much doubt CCP will simply give them back, because, you know, CCP.
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corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:00:00 -
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Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Aryth wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Aryth wrote:The major point being. There is no incentive to report anything to CCP. You are far better off trying to get away with it quietly. Uh, no. And, just for the record, suggesting that players engage in this sort of behavior is a much more serious EULA violation - one which can get you slapped with a ban, not just a negative wallet. No matter how upset you might be, don't go there, Aryth. By me suggesting people are far better off trying to game the system quietly than overtly? There were no exploits here as far as I am concerned. CCP romping around siezing assets not even related to this clearly shows they feel differently. Playing the game to the limits of their design is now officially an exploit. This is bigger than this specific case. This is not the CCP of old. You could try Blizzard or other decently serious companies. Instant perma ban and they send you an email stating whatever further correspondence you will send them will be completely ignored.
Perhaps this is merely the first step in that direction, then. Which, really, makes it the first step in Eve's death as a game. Imagine the future of eve: Carebears mining veldspar, forever.
And nothing else. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:06:00 -
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Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Hey you have just to watch the fanfest videos to realize that what I say is true. In CCP Sreegs eyes a botter, a cheater a RMTer and an exploiter are all the same cockroach to crush.
And apparently those who creatively use legitimate game mechanics are yet another cockroach. No big surprise after hooking up with Sony.
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Perhaps this is merely the first step in that direction, then. Which, really, makes it the first step in Eve's death as a game. Imagine the future of eve: Carebears mining veldspar, forever.
And nothing else.
So would that mean that Goons killed Eve? [/quote]
I wouldn't go so far as to say killed. Catalyzed, perhaps. The event that caused CCP to show its (new) true colors, perhaps. Killed? Not really. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:25:00 -
[45] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Cutter Isaacson wrote:Hmm, have we gone from "yay we are goons, we are awesome" to "oh dear we got caught and spanked" to "cheating should be ok because the mechanic was flawed" to "EVE is dying"? No. Just that the game has changed a bit. Everyone will have their own opinion on if that is a good thing or not. Obviously I am biased but I have had this opinion every since they got neg-pressed into banning mittens. For something they clearly saw with their own eyes and ignored.
Right. CCP got in bed with Sony for DUST and it clearly changed their sensibilities. Sony doesn't do sandbox games, Sony does games with very strict rules. That concept and sandbox games don't mesh well.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The Slayer wrote:CCP How many people who abused the Pax Amarria thing did you remove ISK from? Oh thats right none. I'd be interested to see if possible the total worth of the Pax Amarria issue as compared to this.
1.8 billion units of nocxium were produced from the Pax Amarria thing. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:58:00 -
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Billy Buysalot wrote:asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting. It will be very hard for CCP to justify their current actions in relation to Burn Jita. I wonder how CCP will try and back down from this.
I'd love to see them justify how this isn't okay, but mass insurance fraud was. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:00:00 -
[47] - Quote
Ghost Xray wrote:Billy Buysalot wrote:asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting. It will be very hard for CCP to justify their current actions in relation to Burn Jita. I wonder how CCP will try and back down from this. I could help them there: Burn Jita was "f*cking brilliant" Where this is "f*cking lame"
Try mine next since its literally the same thing, ie a game mechanic becoming an isk printing machine. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:01:00 -
[48] - Quote
asd3452 wrote:Billy Buysalot wrote:asd3452 wrote:PCGamer is currently writing an article about this massive about-face by CCP on Eve as a Sandbox. It should be interesting. It will be very hard for CCP to justify their current actions in relation to Burn Jita. I wonder how CCP will try and back down from this. My guess is they will make a vague but self-congratulatory dev-blog, then quietly return assets after some time passes, while not commenting on it publicly. CCP is in a really bad position given how loudly and proudly they trumpet 'Sandbox' to all the gaming media. My feeling is that Sony is putting pressure on CCP to no longer run EVE as a Sandbox, and instead make it much more like all the other MMOs out there, with little real player-driven economy.
Wow its almost like I said this pages ago. First step in the death of eve, "carebears mining veldspar forever and nothing else" and all that. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:28:00 -
[49] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Lyron-Baktos wrote:why are people shocked that CCP is removing assets? They've done it in the past and they'll do it again. What's more shocking is that Goons did this in the first place. You had to have known you would not be allowed to keep everything I know people might not believe me. But I really did expect to be allowed to keep it. This was well within what I consider the boundaries of the game. Many people agree, this is EVE.
Indeed. "Manipulate a market?" Check, legit action. Gain LP from FW? Check, a legit action. Combine them both? Should be legit in the sandbox, CCP says no! Or maybe Sony says no? Who knows. Eve has changed. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:33:00 -
[50] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Aryth wrote:It's more than that. To justify seizing everything, and even assets unreleated to FW, they have to be saying, using their own game mechanics, and the design they were repeatedly told was bad, is an exploit. That is what is so chilling about it.
This isn't the CCP of 2 years ago. Sonyfied CCP is not the CCP we know and love. They are something different now. It wasn't until it hit PCGamer they took actoin. The CCP of 2 years ago couldn't pay it's bank loan. The Dude wrote:Yes, Walter, you're right. There is an unspoken message here. It's "**** YOU" Are you saying they sold out?
Sounds like it. I'm inclined to agree, really. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
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corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:35:00 -
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Sven Hammerstorm wrote:It is pretty clear that next time someone finds something like this, the last thing they should do is to try help and tell ccp. Ironic isnt it :P
"Teacher teacher, I found a small knife in my lunch, my mom must have given me hers by accident, I just wanted to make sure it's kept safe."
"YOU'RE EXPELLED!"
This literally happened at a local school. That is literally what's happening here. Won't tell other players about legitimate but unintended mechanics like this in the future, but I definitely won't be telling CCP either. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:47:00 -
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Better Than You wrote:Makes me wonder why there are removing other assets outside of the faction warfare ones... RMT much little goonies? Other assets removed were datacores Aryth had purchased prior to any of this starting. CCP can't tell the difference between datacores purchased prior to this and datacores that came from the LP store. Shocking, right? CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 04:36:00 -
[53] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Xython wrote: You bragged about exploiting the wardec changes. You knew they were going to be fixed, including a "get out of responsibility free" card in your post -- claiming if they were fixed, it was cause supposedly cried to CCP. They were fixed. You claimed we cried to CCP. Evidence that we actually were looking forward to the foreverwar was ignored in lieu of the lie pubbies tell themselves so they can sleep at night.
You need to stop falsely accusing people of "exploitng". We did absolutely nothing with wardecs that was not discussed in the inferno 1.0 wardec devblog. Unfortunately your director's publicly welcomed the 1.1 "cooling off inferno" changes in the various threads - your allies in TEST also. So while I do appreciate you need to put on a big brave "come at me bro" face when discussing wardecs - the reality is a little less pugnacious. Xython wrote: Let it go. The game isn't fair in such a way that a 100 man alliance can fight off a 7000 man alliance. Nor is it designed to be unbalanced in such a way. And trying to bleat and moan until CCP somehow makes it "fair" like that is never going to happen, because that's stupid on a level that almost matches the stupidity of people who run 23 ice miner bot accounts at the same time. So is it fair or unfair in favour of the largest alliances in the game that its going to be impossible for a defensive coalition to come close to matching the numbers an aggressor can bring to war for a nominal payment of 50m isk per week? I think you are mixing up definitions - is eve Fair (thus its unfair that small guys can fight back) or Unfair (but specially fair on the largest). I'm confused to be honest. I can't really decide whether eve is supposed to be "fair" or not. Or if its only supposed to be "fair" for some and "unfair" for others? Is "fairness" always something that benefits the largest? While "unfair" is what happens when the smaller defender finds a way to fight back? Xython wrote: If you want to fight Goonswarm like that, make your own alliance. Come visit VFK with 254 of your closest friends. We'll leave the light on for you. Hey you wardecced us. Don't try and slither away now with all that "come and fight us in 0.0 guff" - I did my best to arrange a welcoming committe for the swarm in hisec so don't go yellow on me when the milk turns sour.
Can we leave this discussion out of this thread, please?
That goes for all you goons posting about it too, tia.
RougeOperator wrote: It theoretically was an infinite money loop.
the real value is not important.
Theoretically, perhaps. In practice, it was dependent on items which we would have inevitably crashed, even if we had carefully hidden it and milked it for months/years. Infinite supply, finite demand, what does that do to price again? CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 05:08:00 -
[54] - Quote
Time Funnel wrote:ModeratedToSilence wrote: Any publicity is good publicity.
Yes, this is the smartest way to handle the situation. Just take the difference of "before" and "after" and roll around in new subscriptions because people read that you can make 175k USD by blowing yourself up in a video game. A big media event like this once a month would be a huge boon.
"Cool things happened in the sandbox", which is what this was, is good PR. "Cool things happened in the sandbox, but then players got punished for their legitimate actions" which, while the official verdict is still out (no statement from CCP yet, after all), is how many players perceive it, is not such good PR. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 06:20:00 -
[55] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Alex Skate wrote:Most of you are addicted like dirty whores. You(not all) wish you saw trillions in your wallet. Quite commical. SO many of you forget this is a game; Yet, so funny this is not a game to you(not all). It is your life, your breath, what you wake up to and what you go to before you sleep.
You may disagree or agree. One thing is certain: You will continue to play.
When the real world puts pressures and expectations on you with respect to this world, this is your escape or at least a place to waste your time.
Where shall you go? There is no place you can run. There is no place you can hide.
Sorry, I've found eve players running to both ToR and WoT and most of them like it better there than they do here. Mind you, it's the carebears to TOR and the PvPers to WoT, but... yeah, sorry, EvE ain't smack, and even if it was, I can get my fix elsewhere. You forgot Mechwarrior online where the Goons themselves are going. Including notable ones http://mwomercs.com/forums/user/22079-the-mittani/ I hear that if you play Eve, you're literally not allowed to play any other games at all. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 06:42:00 -
[56] - Quote
Elecktra Blue wrote:So I'm curious, the people that said they acted upon this "issue" after seeing the document "leak" on twitter, should be in the same boat by CCP's investigative definition. Yes I am talking about Jade Constantine, who admitted to making over 8B after this document leak, and I imagine there are others as well, should they not be under investigation as well? Or is this simply a crusade against those the high-sec population loathe?
Aight I'm gonna step in here and say stop being dumb, because all you're doing is letting Jade be smug over making yet another goon look dumb.
Jade, like many other players, profited off of this when our actions got them close enough to Tier 5 that they realized they could get the rest of the way there with a trivial outlay. Tier 5 happened, lots of players, including Jade, bought stuff at a quarter of "base" cost. None of them can be said in any way to have exploited or anything, and in any case the Tier 5 incident happened a week ago, if I recall, long before we approached CCP. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 06:51:00 -
[57] - Quote
Once again - Jade, and many others not involved, profited of of our actions when we got Minmatar tantalizingly close to Tier 5 and they finished the job. The document (which was just a google doc version of this post) didn't even EXIST at this point. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 07:02:00 -
[58] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:15th Century Portrait wrote: seriously? rly? like rly rly srsly?
I really wish Mittens would butt in here. He's much better at this (usually) than most of tonight's contenders. Goonswarm is getting rusty if this is their best trolling.
Most of the last 20 pages isn't trolling so much as it's ****posting, really. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 07:36:00 -
[59] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: I might point out that this never happened
It did according to the first several pages of this thread, back when dozens of goonswarm members were bragging about it?
It's almost as though goons reflexively troll and make **** up. If you want to take a few otherwise unsubstantiated posts as proof that something happened, though, be my guest. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 07:41:00 -
[60] - Quote
15th Century Portrait wrote:corestwo wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Richard Desturned wrote: I might point out that this never happened
It did according to the first several pages of this thread, back when dozens of goonswarm members were bragging about it? It's almost as though goons reflexively troll and make **** up. If you want to take a few otherwise unsubstantiated posts as proof that something happened, though, be my guest. thats terrible
Didn't you say you were going to bed three or four pages ago? CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
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corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 16:21:00 -
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CCP Sreegs wrote:Aryth wrote:Popping in. Will be out of pocket rest of day. I was hoping to have seen a Dev Blog by now but no dice.
Status for me right now: 1.2T in hard assets taken at least. Possibly more. I would need to go and put a hard value on all the BPC's seized. This was mixed in with my own stuff, I didn't keep separate stacks. 1.7B in LP zeroed out. Yes, that is a B.
So even if you value LP at 1k isk each, when it's 2k if you cashed it in properly, I am out about 3T since last night. No word yet from CCP. Going to wait to see what the statement says, this is pretty surprising to me as we feel this is all legitimate gameplay and they seem to be reflecting that in their press releases. So I don't want to speculate too much right now on their thought process. It's a black box right now.
You know we won't comment on individual items on this forum and we welcome you to do the same. Some LP was seized from people who were abusing, and I do mean abusing, this mechanic in order to prevent a crash of the FW markets. It will stay that way until Monday at the earliest. Nothing that's been printed by any news source is in any way accurate and any numbers that have been printed were made up by these "journalists".
In other words, "assets have been impounded pending further investigation." Which is what we thought. Might have been a little cleaner if that had been announced yesterday though. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 16:27:00 -
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Tallon Sylph wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb. I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way. Not working as intended? Oh my. Maybe you guys should make things better rather than going on asset grabbing rampages when a group of players understands the impact of your changes better than you do. Now now, the police will impound property while investigating a crime, and that's basically what this is, at this point anyway. The police will also usually tell you, but hey, notifications do get delayed sometime. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 16:32:00 -
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CCP Sreegs wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:We haven't punished anyone to date. We haven't even decided if we will but boy howdy are we well within our rights to do so and I'm just astounded that I even have to explain that. Nobody is questioning whether you're in your right to do whatever you want with accounts, it's whether you're going to set a precedent for retroactively punishing people for doing things that were well within the design parameters of the game. By that standard the ferrogel exploit was also within the parameters. I don't know why this seems to not be sinking in. All exploits were programmed.
It was like 30 pages ago and may have been already explained, but the ferrogel exploit actually wasn't within parameters of the game - the POS reactors or whatever were continuing to run even when the silos with the inputs were empty. That's clearly a glitch, and if there had been such a glaringly obvious glitch involved here, none of us would have touched it. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 16:44:00 -
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CCP Sreegs wrote:Maggie Maggie wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Comparing removing the manipulated assets of a small number of people to a complete redesign of the game may just win the prize. Hear me out. While I am a goon and of course I do feel that a member of my tribe is under attack, I'm speaking as a player. EVE has always been an open sandbox where players are allowed and encouraged to do things that materially affect the game. That is the one thing that sets EVE apart from every other MMO. There are other spaceship games. There are other games with a functioning market. There are other games where clever players do better than dumb people. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If a player is afraid to experiment and push the game in new directions for fear that, should they win too big, they will lose everything, then that is not an open sandbox. EVE has always been an open sandbox. If that is no longer the case, that constitues a complete redesign. Please don't take that first step. I like the game how it is. When do we get to the part where we stop pretending that a gap in the timing of value calculation (programming) wasn't what was being taken advantage of here? This wasn't just market manipulation it was taking advantage of a flaw in the code.
I should note that because of the way that the estimated price was calculated - a three month running average - that even if that timing value had run daily, our particular item would have maintained its price, as the volume before and after we bought & sold it to adjust the price would have remained consistent. On any given day up to 90 days after the fact, it would have looked back and said "yep, X units sold, and whoa, 1/2X of those were sold at a really high price, so I guess that makes the average (a really big number)"
Assuming we're right about it's mechanism, of course. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 17:05:00 -
[65] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Tallon Sylph wrote:AureoBroker wrote:Dear goons; again. This is an exploit, that is a completely unintented use of game mechanics.
We didn't intend for this game mechanic to work in the way that we designed it to work even though people repeatedly told us it was dumb. I can state 100% that we did not intend the mechanic to function this way.
You didn't intend for mass insurance fraud (which injected new isk into the economy), pax amarria (which was infinitely available and became profitable to refine for its nocxium, thus depressing the price of nocxium to this day), or PI (enriching many players who bought off of NPC sells prior to their removal) to function the way they did, either, and yet people who took advantage of those things were not punished. You sort of see why many people see this as a massive change in precedent, right? CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 17:38:00 -
[66] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Xython wrote:This whole thing is a win win for anyone who likes good fourm rage. Either CCP is going to let this go (and the pubbies will EXPLODE), or they're not (and everyone who values the sandbox will EXPLODE). There may be a 3rd option, but I certainly ain't seeing it. Erase all the toons, close the server, put the game through 8 months development and open it as EvE II and force everyone to start over. Then everyone explodes. This would own. In a world where frigates are top dog, goons rule the universe. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 17:47:00 -
[67] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:corestwo wrote:This would own. In a world where frigates are top dog, goons rule the universe. Don't know the swarms own history then? Goons used to do exactly that against BoB with newb ships. There is the problem though of no one actually having the isk to start an alliance, however...
No, I don't just happen to be a goon who's played since 2006, including during the period when BoB thought invading syndicate was significant, so I'm totally unfamiliar with our tactics at the time. CCP no longer respects its sandbox. Thanks, Sony. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 18:35:00 -
[68] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Piranhas wrote:So if this isn't intended gameplay what about:
Titans - There is a lot of them Titans are rare, a major alliance might have one or two, some might even have as many as four titans. "64K of ram will be enough for anyone."
"There is market in the world for maybe 5 computers"
"ThereGÇÖs no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance."
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corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 19:28:00 -
[69] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:I'm up to $126.47 in my PayPal acct from playing the real money auction house in Diablo 3. This has much more relevance to me than whining about pretend space money in a space combat simulator. If I'm going to grind, I might as well be working toward paying my rent for it. Still.... It's always fun to read these threads, so keep on keepin' on. Mr Epeen
I make that in a couple of hours at a job I actually do quite enjoy doing, so that I can then come home and have fun playing my games, so congratulations? . |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 21:50:00 -
[70] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:corestwo wrote: You sort of see why many people see this as a massive change in precedent, right? Because its Goons getting punished? Damn, youre right Shoot, you're right, I guess all the people posting in this thread about how they don't like CCP trodding in the sandbox are goon alts. I guess you think Riverini, goon hater extraordinaire is probably a goon alt too. He'll be so heartbroken. :( . |
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corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 21:54:00 -
[71] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Because its Goons getting punished? Damn, youre right Shoot, you're right, I guess all the people posting in this thread about how they don't like CCP trodding in the sandbox are goon alts. I guess you think Riverini, goon hater extraordinaire is probably a goon alt too. He'll be so heartbroken. :(
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:corestwo wrote:This would own. In a world where frigates are top dog, goons rule the universe. Thought you already did? Well...yes.
Xutech wrote:CCP have been surprisingly tight lipped about the whole situation, sending out CCP SREEGS "the cooler" to keep things calm while minimizing the amount of community anger and wildfire speculation going on.
Has CCP contacted any media outlets about this story? It would make great reading and might attract more players.
I certainly hope some of you re paste the choicest quotes to Kugutsumen before they are removed / redacted by the fair minded moderators of this just city.
"Goons play in sandbox game, get punished" doesn't make for something that will attract more players, really.
You really should be familiar with the difference between personal income and alliance income, but then again MV is the worst corp in TEST, so maybe not. . |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 22:40:00 -
[72] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:Funny, I think thats the first time Goons have given him credence. Desperate much?
It's not as though anything I do will change CCP's judgement in the end, one way or another. Hard to be desperate when you can't change the outcome. . |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 22:47:00 -
[73] - Quote
Perhaps. I simply can't help be amused by a known goon-hater agreeing with us though. . |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 22:56:00 -
[74] - Quote
Enaris Kerle wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote: Mate why are you arguing whether it was legal or not the original op new it wasn't and reported it to CCP as a possible exploit (unfortunately after he had rinsed it) so where is the argument ?
What I'm arguing is that taking any proceeds of this off the players is completely the opposite of every known precedence. Nobody got their Nocx removed after refining Pax. Nobody got their Guidance Systems deleted when Tyrannis hit. Nobody got negwalleted after insurance scamming. None of these were intended, and yet CCP is doing a total 180 on their previous decisions.
Don't forget neither west & gray nor Kwark had their isk taken away after spending months gaming the contract system's flawed default sorting method. . |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.23 23:03:00 -
[75] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:Enaris Kerle wrote:Talon SilverHawk wrote: Mate why are you arguing whether it was legal or not the original op new it wasn't and reported it to CCP as a possible exploit (unfortunately after he had rinsed it) so where is the argument ?
What I'm arguing is that taking any proceeds of this off the players is completely the opposite of every known precedence. Nobody got their Nocx removed after refining Pax. Nobody got their Guidance Systems deleted when Tyrannis hit. Nobody got negwalleted after insurance scamming. None of these were intended, and yet CCP is doing a total 180 on their previous decisions. Yeah but at the same time the scale of this was huge, and CCP probably need/want to send a message that this sort of thing is bad . Might have been different if he hadn't of posted about it on the forums and just had a quiet word.... who knows. Anyhow I've been out all day anything happened or still waiting for CCP to make a call ? Tal
CCP won't make a call until monday at the soonest. . |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.24 00:47:00 -
[76] - Quote
InternetSpaceship wrote:So I noticed there isn't a lot of the "CCP is goons" talk that usually surfaces in other threads. Where are all the DevSwarm and favoritism accusations? It just doesn't feel like a goon hate thread without them. :(
That's the key, here, We Faction Five are being thrown under the bus to preserve the appearance that Goons do not actually run CCP. In fact, this entire thing was orchestrated with their approval and under their instruction.
Or, uh. Something.
You know, that sounds too dumb for even the "CCP is goons" crowd to try to claim. I guess that's why they're not here. . |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.24 01:04:00 -
[77] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Wait for a final verdict. It they move to give the isk back, expect the 'CCP is Goons' rage from non-goons. If they don't, expect the 'CCP has **** on the sandbox' rage from members of goonswarm
You'll hear "Their actions are legitimate" from lots of non-goons too, you know.
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:Dear CCP Sreegs,
I feel that taking away the ISK earned by Goons is a grave mistake. You may see it as an exploit, but I see it as an application of forethought, planning and execution.
Let them keep their ISK. Seriously. Case in point! But then again, of course one of Eve's better known scammers would agree with us, right? . |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.24 01:30:00 -
[78] - Quote
Cahvus wrote:Posted from my iPad.
You had to go and write that out just to let everyone know HEY GUYS I HAVE AN IPAD.
. |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.24 02:36:00 -
[79] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:We're missing one one. Someone that one hasn't posted. Where is he? WHERE IS HE??? Won't ya please make way for a very special guy Our man Mittani is king of the pumpkin patch Everyone heil to the Pumpkin King now! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw8pcxE6U9k Mittens can afford to be patient. CCP are the ones posturing, and trying to work out how to spin this. Mittens will be watchful. Based on the laughably pre-judgmental comments from CCP Screegs when an investigation is still underway the Goons will need the be cautious of what is classed as an exploit. Something for instance such as an aggessive expansion of OTEC. Or Mittens could just saw screw it and burn everything.
Mittens had nothing to do with any of this. . |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.24 05:12:00 -
[80] - Quote
Quote:
2nd moment - the script that calculates the prices had bugs (I assume from your posts), so any manipulation of market tricked the script to assume the new high prices sooner than it should????. If my assuption is right than at this point I agree, if the script had a problem, anything they did that made the bad scipt update new prices with absurd values is a exploit... so any LP gain after the patch is "dirty" by this move.
No, the problem is that sreegs seems to be convinced that the fact that the script updated weekly somehow mattered, when in fact the estimated price could have been updated in real time and the result would still have been exactly the same. . |
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corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.24 05:24:00 -
[81] - Quote
Quote:Mission rewards paid out in Feb: 2,470,815,985,076 ISK. Mission bonuses: 2,346,410,541,970 ISK. Insurance payouts in Feb: 3,366,455,121,035 ISK. Paid for insurance: 1,618,888,782,680 ISK. ISK earnt from NPC bounties in Feb: 32,083,329,999,805 ISK 8,566,015,400,900 ISK paid out in Incursion rewards in February. Last one up; 21,847 LP store wallet transactions costing a total of 218.33bn ISK.
That last one is referring to a single day, which means something in excess of 6 billion LP a month, to say nothing of nearly 50 trillion new isk created.
You see why we're pretty confident in saying that what we did would actually have no long term effect? . |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.24 07:15:00 -
[82] - Quote
Maestro Antollare wrote:pretend this is any other game - i find an item i can buy from an npc that sells to that same npc for more than i originally paid to buy it, use that to max out my gold, isk, w/e, then tell the devs about it
yes, the devs should have seen it, but it was obviously not intended to do what i used it for
Depends on the devs. I've heard exactly what you described (well, close) happened in EQ 2 or something, and SOE flipped out and banned. On the other hand, I've heard something like it happened in LOTR Online and the devs there went "yep, our fault" and simply fixed it and moved on.
CCP used to be like the latter example.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: You can build a skyscraper with perfect sub-components, perfect materials, in the best place and... bork the structural calculations so it crumbles after 2 weeks. Individual parts worked exactly as intended but now it's a pile of dirt.
I know what you're trying to say, mostly because you've said it again and again, but...your example sucks, because if you "bork the structural calculations" then individual parts were not, in fact, working as intended. . |
corestwo
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Posted - 2012.06.24 07:38:00 -
[83] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:technically you Goons said it first some 20 or so pages ago Look let's look at this from the other angle OK? 99.44%* of Goon transactions purveying anything faction are scams. Yet in this "exploit" the customers got real merchandise every single time. And they gladly gave their money for the items, because they were quite affordable.A large amount of ISK was also destroyed. What's the problem here, again?
Ahem. While I appreciate your attempts to defend us with this analogy, I find it distasteful as I was formerly the largest contract dealer of 0.0 faction goods in Eve, and none of my contracts for faction goods were scams. How dare you impunge my honour, good sir! . |
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