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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 48 post(s) |
Hermia
Aliastra Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:17:00 -
[841] - Quote
Graic Gabtar wrote:Best dev blog ever.
Im not a devout devswarm believer but it still funny
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Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
27
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:17:00 -
[842] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
Actually, it's not that simple. If this case would ever be brought to a real-life court, the Goons would likely go free. The problem is that there is no decisive evidence to support that the Goons did do this on purpose.
"Whaaa? They admitted doing this! There's your evidence, dude"
Precisely. It's the Goons admitting the scheme, which holds no value whatsover. They are of the same value as the ramblings of a madman. It can not be proven whether the Goons were deliberately abusing a system or they merely discovered this by accident and thought it was just working as CCP intended. In real-life court, the Goons would use the latter as a valid means of defense and would get away with it.
The key here is to realize this is not a real-life court. CCP has to act, but needs time to fully investigate what has happened. It is very likely that CCP was not even aware of this during their internal testing. That is because of one thing and one thing only:
The Goons know this game better than the CCP developers do.
Bottom-line is that the Goons gather around and wonder how to abuse and manipulate the system. That is the sole-purpose of their meetings. CCP does not have these. They don't have a group of hackers ready to do internal testing on how to abuse a system CCP designed. They release it to the live-servers and the Goons are the ones testing it.
Without the Goons, this would not have been discovered for a while. And clever players would have found out eventually, by accident or on purpose. Regardless, it would likely be abused over a longer period of time as the Goons are honest enough to publicize their findings in a relatively short time-frame (within a month upon release on the live servers).
Should the Goons be punished? Ban their accounts? Possibly. CCP has the right and ability to do whatever she deems fit. They can ban the Goon players admitting that they did this, or the entire corp. Perhaps even the entire alliance. Problem is that there is no right-way of dealing with it. If they ban players or a corp/alliance, they no longer hold on to the concept of the sandbox: give players the freedom to develop themselves. If they won't take action at all, other players will be disheartened knowing that "crime pays off". An example of this attitude is given by this post:
Wille Sanara wrote:So...exploiting a game mechanic that is obviously not working as intended is a bug, right? So we are going to see banhammer strike, right, CCP?
I really wouldn't want to be in CCP's shoes right now. They were beaten in a game that they created, outsmarted by its players.
CCP, if you do decide on actions against the Goons, may I suggest keeping this only to a small core group of developers? The more CCP employees know about actions against the Goons, the more likely the chance they will be tipped off giving them ample time to prepare for the upcoming ban or any other action you may take. As I said before, Goons will outsmart you and they will find a way to get around your ban or roll-back, or whatever you come up with. The only true way to punish them is a shift, sudden action with no time to prepare.
It will be interesting to see what the outcome is of this.
Oh and as personal opinion, I highly favor a ban of all Goons for a month. Determine whose accounts are from Goons players and ban all of them without any warning given. Give out the message that this was one abuse too many.
but... I'm realist enough to know CCP will likely not do such action and I won't be disheartened if CCP doesn't do anything at all. CCP knows the Goonswarm will always be one step ahead of them like true hackers trying to enter a protected system. |
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
281
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:17:00 -
[843] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch. Interesting.
Haven't yet "completed the investigation" but a pre-determined outcome seems to have been decided.
To me this seems horribly like CCP sour grapes as they were simply outclassed. Yeah, markets were trashed, but nothing was magically spawned - it was a poorly designed mechanic.
Even after the LP gimp GS simply adapted so CCP obviously knew something was up. They failed at game mechanics design and will now revert to hacks and gimps. They have just cracked the ***** because they were outplayed.
There is simply no other way to put it.
If this is so bad why aren't CCP launching investigations into people "abusing" the Margin Trading skill or people "abusing" the markets through manipulations?
Where's the CCP cavalry then? EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Henk Fixer
Rim Worlds Republic Solar Citizens
1
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:18:00 -
[844] - Quote
I think in general this is great, another of those EvE stories that make people want to play the game. It would be nothing without the drama.
However, its spoilt by the usual low level intellect posts by the Goons. "buhuhuh pubbie tears, I r waiting here for my tears" (when really, 2% of people reply here who are upset, 98% of EvE couldnt give a ****)
I can appreciate the thought and execution by the top level who set it in motion, less impressed by the brain dead dribbling masses of goons who think spamming the word "ground floor!!" somehow means they were involved.
I suppose its a little like Stephen Hawkings figuring out how the Universe began, and his colostomy bag cheering for joy and claiming it had something to do with it. |
Aeryn Tiberius
Imperial Reclamation
9
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:21:00 -
[845] - Quote
I just want to thank the goons for showing how messed up CCP really is. Thank you, CCP tries to create a sandbox then players build a sandbox and put CCP into it. |
Crellion
Parental Control
27
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:25:00 -
[846] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Wasse wrote: As someone who works for a software company (business software, but still software), I've never once heard bad design called a bug.
A design feature which is coded correctly, but does not work as intended in the field, is indeed known as a design "bug". These sorts of bugs happen frequently in large, complex software systems, where it is difficult or impossible to work out all of the possible use cases, via QA or simulation, prior to release.Perhaps you remember the Patriot Missile software failure during the Gulf War, which resulted in a failed Scud intercept and the deaths of 28 US soldiers? This failure was due to a design bug, not a coding bug.
I disagree with the part in bold.
Creating a system where the reward to the killer is potentially 4x the loss of the person whose ship just diaf'd (or eve 1.5x for that matter) is a sure way to introduce an easy exploit in a game where everyone knows that the same RL controller can be both the killer and the victim.
A great many people saw this merely from reading the dev blog... so for the devs not to spot it .... hmmmm....
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Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:29:00 -
[847] - Quote
Singulis Pacifica wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:So, a bug was abused?
This is a no brainer, isn't it?
Actually, it's not that simple. If this case would ever be brought to a real-life court, the Goons would likely go free. The problem is that there is no decisive evidence to support that the Goons did do this on purpose.
I don't think this is a court.
Like i said previous, we've banned people for less on our game. And owning up to it just gets you a "Well, thanks for admitting to it", right after the banhammer.
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Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
281
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:32:00 -
[848] - Quote
atrum dux wrote:Wait so I'm getting banned for manipulating the jita market? Well if CCP do anything to GS over this conceivably - yes. A precedent will have been set.
EVE shall be purged by fire - please Gods let them ALL burn in Jita. |
Fuujin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
169
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:33:00 -
[849] - Quote
Better Than You wrote:Thanks for ruining the FW and the LP market you attention starved jerks! About time you shove off and ruin a different game don't you think?! I look forward to your bans for exploiting game mechanics and will be here drinking in the oceans of tears from your fellow alliance mates crying about how their buddy was given the kick to the curb.
-2 accounts till goons are removed from the game. They say they bring content, but it is in fact a complete load of bullshit.
So you're mad because they were...Better Than You?
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Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:36:00 -
[850] - Quote
Kinis Deren wrote:I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO. Did Mittens and co just throw CCP "under the bus" for a bit of post Fanfest/CSM election fiasco payback or is this a deflection strategy over the Inferno 1.1 war dec change drama. /me adjusts tinfoil hat How many alts could you create with the profit to influence the outcome of, say, CSM8?
This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here. a rogue goon |
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Preceptor Stigmartyr
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:38:00 -
[851] - Quote
That's just pride ****ing with them. Nice gamble.
http://imgur.com/dfVDn.jpg |
Kmelx
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
39
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:39:00 -
[852] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Keep in mind that CCP Sreegs is the one who disqualified Hydra and OB from ATX. He is also the one who routinely seizes ISK and assets, and applies the ban hammer, to RMT accounts. He would not be my first choice of CCP devs to accuse of making empty threats.
Those assets/accounts are all acquired through abuse of the EULA by botting, or RMT, essentially he has grounds on the basis of the EULA to take action against those accounts. The Alliance Tournament is subject to whatever rules they want to make up.
There are no such rules or grounds here IMO. CCP designed the game, Goons played the game, in playing the game they made ISK, truly obscene amounts of ISK but they did so via the mechanics that CCP introduced into the game, I don't see how CCP can possibly justify taking the ISK or the assets/LP back.
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Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:39:00 -
[853] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:
This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.
I think this needs to be bourne in mind. GSF may do a lot of stuff in game, but i don't think its fair to blame the entire corp for the actions of a few in this situation.
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SupaFlyTNT
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
0
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:44:00 -
[854] - Quote
That's pretty well played
/tips hat |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
57
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:44:00 -
[855] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:
This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.
I think this needs to be bourne in mind. GSF may do a lot of stuff in game, but i don't think its fair to blame the entire corp for the actions of a few in this situation. And by "blame" you mean "congratulate", right? |
Cebraio
Starfire Oasis
89
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:52:00 -
[856] - Quote
And here I was, thinking goons were just a bunch of mindless tools who could win with quantity but not with quality.
Well played, gentlemen!
* slow hands clap *
I feel much more space-poor now. |
Vincent VanDamme
EVE University Ivy League
30
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:52:00 -
[857] - Quote
Pisov viet wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:
This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.
I think this needs to be bourne in mind. GSF may do a lot of stuff in game, but i don't think its fair to blame the entire corp for the actions of a few in this situation. And by "blame" you mean "congratulate", right?
Not really.
I dont thing congratulating people on bug abuse is really gonna happen.
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Imryn Xaran
Coherent Light Enterprises
41
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Posted - 2012.06.22 09:58:00 -
[858] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Ituhata Saken wrote:Dearest Market-Interested Space Tycoons,
At downtime today we made an adjustment to the average price of some items in order to curb a situation whereby the average price of an item could be manipulated in order to create a disparity between the value of an item in Isk and its value in Loyalty Point payouts. There will be additional changes in how this system works in the future. We will be monitoring for attempted manipulation of the LP market and will reverse any proceeds deemed to have been obtained through manipulative means. We are watching you. DonGÇÖt be That Guy. By way of explanation we addressed the manipulation issue but haven't yet completed the investigation into the scope of the abuse. Once that happens I'm pretty sure some people are going to be a bit less smug about the money they made that one time when there was a bank error in their favor and then lost again when the bank fixed the glitch.
IGÇÖd be interested to hear how you are twisting this into being an GÇ£abuseGÇ¥. As far as I can see the mechanics being used here are working exactly the way you guys designed them to work. The fact that you have now decided to change the way some of those mechanics work is irrelevant.
Also IGÇÖm a bit worried to see that although the investigation isnGÇÖt yet complete you already seem to have decided what the outcome will be. I would HOPE that a full investigation would highlight what have to be enormous flaws in your design and QA processes that allowed this system to be implemented, and I would HOPE that the resulting recommendations would strongly suggest that additional testing and QA processes were needed to emphasise the testing of GÇ£edgeGÇ¥ or GÇ£limitingGÇ¥ cases.
I EXPECT your investigation will gloss over the failures of CCP employees (as usual) and place the blame on the players who in this case are obviously smarter than all of you guys put together.
IsnGÇÖt it about time you guys at CCP realised that this isnGÇÖt a game? This is your lively GÇôhood and you should probably start to act with a bit more professionalism when it comes to the changes you make to it. |
Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
3
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Posted - 2012.06.22 10:00:00 -
[859] - Quote
shut up nerds
jimmy carr paid 1% tax for a bit, it ain't illegal, he wont go to jail. but the bbc will fix the tax system same thing happened here fix the system ccp, don't send jimmy carr to jail do ccp think they are bigger than THE QUEEN?? |
Wisdom Divine
State Protectorate Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.06.22 10:01:00 -
[860] - Quote
Nothing surprising here.
CCP has a track record of design failures when it comes to malleable mechanics and grasping the lengths players will go to optimize them.
What you see is the market equivalent of a blapping titan.
There are the people who can optimize the turret tracking formula.
Then there are the people who can optimize the 3-month moving average formula.
I can see why CCP is trying to fix blapping titans. What I didn't see was CCP reimbuirsing players who lost subcaps to blapping. I didn't see sov changes resulting to titan use reversed. I didn't see titan pilots banned.
Why should it be any different for market moving averages? Because they were Goons, and we don't like them?
Back to the tracking analogy, unless there was an actual bug, like that one time when Rooks and Kings fought off those magnetar dudes with infinite tracking turrets, I find manipulating 3-month moving averages completely within the rules of the game; and while a fix would be welcome, just as with the subcap sniping titans, it is a legitimate tactic. |
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Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
824
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Posted - 2012.06.22 10:01:00 -
[861] - Quote
Anyone else notice that 'Jewbal' is a tautology, since is a combination of 'Jew' and 'cabal'?
The term cabal derives from Kabbalah (a word that has numerous spelling variations), which is a Jewish belief system(among other things), so it logically follows that a cabal is generally gonna be a bunch of Jews. Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
Pisov viet
Kaesong Kosmonauts Test Alliance Please Ignore
57
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Posted - 2012.06.22 10:04:00 -
[862] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:Pisov viet wrote:Vincent VanDamme wrote:Richard Desturned wrote:
This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.
I think this needs to be bourne in mind. GSF may do a lot of stuff in game, but i don't think its fair to blame the entire corp for the actions of a few in this situation. And by "blame" you mean "congratulate", right? Not really. I dont thing congratulating people on bug abuse is really gonna happen. But...It wasnt a bug. A bug is when code do something it shouldnt do.
Ships killed would give LP according to the price, price would be calculated on the exchange price of the last 3 months. Everything was working as intended. Except the formula was poorly designed.
The code did what it was supposed to do, but the design behind the code was flawed. |
Lord Zim
903
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Posted - 2012.06.22 10:07:00 -
[863] - Quote
Cebraio wrote:I feel much more space-poor now. Actually, you're comparatively spacericher on the basis of tons of ISK being taken out of the game permanently. |
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
475
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Posted - 2012.06.22 10:07:00 -
[864] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Kinis Deren wrote:I wonder why CCP aren't heralding yet another "awesome player driven event by Goonswarm!" this time? Will heads roll at CCP over this? That would be a sad turn of events, IMHO. Did Mittens and co just throw CCP "under the bus" for a bit of post Fanfest/CSM election fiasco payback or is this a deflection strategy over the Inferno 1.1 war dec change drama. /me adjusts tinfoil hat How many alts could you create with the profit to influence the outcome of, say, CSM8? This was not done by "Goonswarm." This was done by a cabal of extremely rich and extremely knowledgeable Goonswarm members using their own capital. There is a huge distinction here.
Thats funny the 1st 4 pages of this thread was a circle jerk of Goon members congratulating each other on how Goons have done it again,
Now the **** has hit the fan its, "oh nothing to do with the general Goon membership"
When did the huge distinction appear ?
Poor attempt at spin, no use trying to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted.
Goons to CCP "we aren't trying to ruin the game just your game"
Tal
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Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
259
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Posted - 2012.06.22 10:10:00 -
[865] - Quote
Crellion wrote:Sizeof Void wrote: A design feature which is coded correctly, but does not work as intended in the field, is indeed known as a design "bug".
These sorts of bugs happen frequently in large, complex software systems, where it is difficult or impossible to work out all of the possible use cases, via QA or simulation, prior to release.
I disagree with the part in bold. A great many people saw this merely from reading the dev blog... so for the devs not to spot it .... hmmmm.... QA checklists and simulation code are designed to test out the original specification use cases only. It is simply impossible to test every possible combination in a large, complex system. And, a design bug will usually not be caught here, because a design feature is not considered to be a bug, by the developers, until it has actually failed in the field.
Design bugs are most commonly discovered by end users, and, oddly enough, frequently pointed out even before the system was finalized or built.
Unfortunately, software developers often experience tunnel vision, with regards to their designs and are reluctant to admit to possible design flaws, esp. to end users. This is particularly prevalent when the developer has no or little actual hands-on experience in the area for which the software is being designed.
I have seen this quite often first-hand, working in many different fields, and usually require my developers to spend several weeks doing the end user's job, on a real project, before starting on any actual application design work. In a few instances, I've allowed a stubborn developer to do a design doc first, spend a couple of weeks on the job, and then revisit his/her design doc. In all such cases, the developer has thrown away his/her original design and successfully built something that the end user can actually use. A great deal of time and money is saved, since the first release actually works, as the end user expects it to work.
In other forum threads, i've suggested that CCP try a similar development strategy, particularly with regards to changes to the UI and new feature design/changes targeted to a specific subset of the player base, such as mining. |
Lord Zim
903
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Posted - 2012.06.22 10:10:00 -
[866] - Quote
Vincent VanDamme wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Wille Sanara wrote:So...exploiting a game mechanic that is obviously not working as intended is a bug, right? So we are going to see banhammer strike, right, CCP? By that logic neut logis should be banhammered, people evading wardecs through neutral alts should be banhammered, people blapping BSes with tracking-fit titans should be banhammered etc. Not sure if serious. The logic isnt the same. Yes, it is. It's all a game mechanic which is being used in a fashion which CCP didn't think of when it was made. Neut logis weren't supposed to be usable in a war to make f.ex what appears to be a 1v1 engagement in reality be a 1v1+10 neut logis. Titans weren't supposed to be subcap blapping machines, yet that's part of what they were used for. Titans weren't supposed to be used for POS bowling, yet that's also part of what they were used for, etc etc etc. And FW wasn't supposed to be this gameable, yet that's what they ended up being used for.
What's common between all of these? Unintended consequences, and all 4 of those examples have been (or have been stated will be) changed. And no-one have been banned for using them. |
Chia Mulholland
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
34
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Posted - 2012.06.22 10:10:00 -
[867] - Quote
Sometimes people find ways to use the systems in game in unexpected ways. In a game as complicated as Eve, that's pretty much inevitable.
Take jetcan mining. Jetcans were never intended to be used that way, but people did and CCP let it stay in game. Noone was banned for using jetcans that way or had their ore taken away.
Other times an unexpected use of a mechanism is too unbalanced and gets removed - like when you could buy Pax Amarria from NPCs and refine it into cheapish nocxium. The mechanism was removed, but noone was banned or had their nocxium removed for using this mechanism.
Some people bought tons of PI materials when they predicted that prices would skyrocket when NPCs stopped selling them. Again, noone has had their ISK taken away or been banned for this.
I believe it would be a first if CCP were to ban people for taking advantage of an in-game market mechanic, no matter how broken, and/or take their ISK (or in this case, LP rewards) away.
But hey - there's a first for everything I guess.
But it's interesting to me that a lot of the market "exploits" that have been done over time all involve NPCs either buying or selling stuff at fixed, non-market prices with unlimited demand/supply. Maybe there's a lesson here that we can learn from. |
Montmazar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
13
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Posted - 2012.06.22 10:11:00 -
[868] - Quote
Every single Improve FW Megathread in Features and Ideas or Assembly Hall since forever has always had everyone agreeing "LP for kills? No that's a dumb idea. But what about. . . ."
And then CCP ships something that gives LP for kills, which turns out to be actually be a pretty dumb idea!
What I'm getting at here is maybe y'all should just get rid of the Features and Ideas and Assembly Hall forums, since it's pretty clear you aren't reading anything in there.
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Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1161
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Posted - 2012.06.22 10:13:00 -
[869] - Quote
Talon SilverHawk wrote:When did the huge distinction appear ?
At the very beginning. Unless everyone else who slow-clapped in this thread is also involved.
Also the **** didn't "hit the fan" when the NPC alts started wagging their fingers at the "general membership." a rogue goon |
Vokanic
Nemitronix Inc
14
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Posted - 2012.06.22 10:16:00 -
[870] - Quote
Aryth wrote: When CCP originally released their devblog on Inferno and revealed the formula they intended to use, we sat in shock. I immediately stated a phrase I would repeat many times: GÇ£/10000 will not save themGÇ¥. CCP made the assumption that rewarding a player 1/10th of the value of the playerGÇÖs kill at 1K ISK/LP, for a total of 10K ISK destroyed CCP Value/1 ISK reward, would prevent manipulation of the system. While this was an understandable mistake, it turned out to be several orders of magnitude off.
The above quote shows why this isn't a bug, and it's not an exploit.
CCPs design was inherently flawed, but it was designed that way. At no point did a CCP employee typo a decimal place in the wrong place. It just doesn't work.
It's not even a formula that a single employee would have used to meet a goal. It was a core component of the whole system. It would have been vetted by numerous people. They probably even did some modelling on it (with the wrong parameters of course).
CCP just had too narrow a vision to figure out what could happen in a system that by design is dynamic in its nature (and value). |
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