Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
David Toviyah
University of Caille Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 20:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
This question arose in a recent thread where I proposed that killing a capsuleer is of course murder just like the intentional killing of any other human being is since the definition of murder (according to, for instance, the Cambridge Dictionaries) is GÇ£the crime of intentionally killing a personGÇ¥. Now, this proposal was challenged by another user who argued that it should not be considered a GÇ£murderGÇ¥ given that capsuleers are usually promptly resurrected after death. According to said user it would only be a murder if the revival failed.
So what do you fine people think? Is it or is it not murder? Are there any comparable instances in real court cases where, for example, someone was killed and then resurrected by paramedics? If so, how were the rulings there? Also, is there any official lore on this where the term GÇ£murderGÇ¥ is used for the killing of a capsuleer? |
Esna Pitoojee
The Peerage Amarr 7th Fleet
74
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
As best I know - and I'm no lawyer or other law official - charges of murder or manslaughter can only be brought if the victim is permanently and irreversibly brought to a state of clinical death. Anything less than that is assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder/manslaughter, etc.
Regardless of the ethical or religious debates about whether killing a capsuleer murder, perhaps the most important point is that most political entities in New Eden - even the pirate factions - seem to consider killing one to be murder, and those entities that choose to enforce laws against such things will respond as such. |
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
9
|
Posted - 2012.06.22 22:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
it is a sticky issue from an outside angle one would have to first question... have they ever been podded and is a clone the same as an actual person.. Figure if you have been podded even once are you really still you?
I guess the only way for us to ever know would be for CCP to come out with a chronicle.
However the bigger issue in EVE is the shear amount of death around in the setting and the ease of dumping a body would make such a thing hard to find out. Figure someone waits for the captain in the quarters on a station, second the pod opens up they shoot them with a silenced weapon or a hand held laser weapon. then they dump the body out an airlock. I bet its easier to hide a murder in New Eden than it is in New Jersey.(trust me that is saying something) |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
96
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 00:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
This is my opinion of course, as New Eden clearly thinks differently. Or there must be some other reason why "killing" a capsuleer has more consequenses than killing thousands of baseliners.
But when you awake in your clone, let's say that you are changed by about 0.1%. There are things that people can do to you , while not killing you, that will change you a lot more. I would therefor reason that if killing a capsuleer = murder, then a lot of other things should be considered murder as well, like, for example, helping someone get rid of a drug addiction. Join in game channel/mailing list: New Eden Racing Sub-warp racing event thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107164 |
Meklon
Minmatar United Freedom Front The 11th Hour Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 09:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Viktor Fyretracker wrote:it is a sticky issue from an outside angle one would have to first question... have they ever been podded and is a clone the same as an actual person.. Figure if you have been podded even once are you really still you?
I guess the only way for us to ever know would be for CCP to come out with a chronicle.
However the bigger issue in EVE is the shear amount of death around in the setting and the ease of dumping a body would make such a thing hard to find out. Figure someone waits for the captain in the quarters on a station, second the pod opens up they shoot them with a silenced weapon or a hand held laser weapon. then they dump the body out an airlock. I bet its easier to hide a murder in New Eden than it is in New Jersey.(trust me that is saying something)
If I recall correctly, during the process of having the various implants embedded, you are killed to make way for your first clone anyway, so you aren't even really the original you when you first fly in a pod. ((I'll see if I can dig up the canon)) |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
96
|
Posted - 2012.06.24 15:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Meklon: I believe that was/is part of a tutorial created around Incarna. At the time it created some discussion on the older version of this forum, because players did not want to retcon their background story. CCP Dropbear responded by writing it was not a retcon, but that the way capsuleers are created changed. He also mentioned there would be be some fiction created to get more into the details about this change in the creation process, and I think I read some fiction (canon or otherwise, I don't recall) about someone who had to kill himself (for legal reasons, initiation, or both) in order to become a capsuleer, but I don't remember what it was called.
Anyway, a character that became a capsuleer before those days, and was never podkilled, is still in his original body, and not in a clone. Join in game channel/mailing list: New Eden Racing Sub-warp racing event thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107164 |
Sominus Nexus
Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords
2
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 22:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Of course it's Murder. Regardless of weather or not the clone is activated. The implants cling to the lifeless corpse, and there is still a body. What was saved was a copy of conciousness, inputed into a new body. The collection of corpses I have in my hangar (31 presently) were all murdered....and yes, I'm okay with that. |
Boffles
Aliastra Gallente Federation
24
|
Posted - 2012.06.25 23:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
i was thinking about something like this the other day, so let me ask the question slightly differently.
To become a capsuleer you original birth self must die. Not only that but in effect you have to commit suicide with help from a technican. You scanned and then set into a clone of your own body. So is the clone a real person or a simulation of your original self running on chip and tissue.
It is interesting that a simulation of a human is acceptable but an AI is not. What is the difference and who decided that difference. |
Esna Pitoojee
The Peerage Amarr 7th Fleet
75
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 01:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Boffles wrote: To become a capsuleer you original birth self must die. Not only that but in effect you have to commit suicide with help from a technican. You scanned and then set into a clone of your own body.
I think this has been mentioned elsewhere, but this is a relatively recent addition to the capsuleer-izing process, and did not used to be the case.
Quote: So is the clone a real person or a simulation of your original self running on chip and tissue.
More of a spiritual/philosophical question than a legal one, I'd think.
Quote: It is interesting that a simulation of a human is acceptable but an AI is not. What is the difference and who decided that difference.
At this point in New Eden, this is a purely practical thing: AIs have a nearly perfect history of running completely out of control and becoming rogue drones. Cloning, on the other hand, does not inherently lead to insanity.
|
Graelyn
Adamant Edge Aegis Militia
256
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 04:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
No.
We are not People. + Cardinal Graelyn + Owner/Operator, "The Summit" YR113 Amarr Loyalist of the Year
|
|
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
292
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 11:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Double jeapody law is the closest legal term I can think of.
If someone has already 'died', then you cannot be accused of murdering them, because they are already dead.
In terms of Concord, they do not sentence people for the murder of a clone (and it's crew) you just get a lower sec rating, like a speeding ticket.
Kinda funny, really.
AK GÇ£You go into combat, and itGÇÖs NOT going to be WagnerGǪindustrial techno or really hard drum and bassGÇ¥ Reynir Hardarson, founding member of CCP Games, 2002.
somethingjustgotreal.com |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
96
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 16:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Actually, I think it's closer to gradual banishment. Join in game channel/mailing list: New Eden Racing Sub-warp racing event thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107164 |
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
16
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 19:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
And considering the daily body count in EVE, one person whacked on a station or an extra body floating in space is not going to bring out the CSIs in full force. |
Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
242
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 20:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sometimes murder cannot even be prosecuted as murder, as the law may vary depending on how long death is delayed after the assault that ultimately causes the death.
This was, at the time, a relatively high profile case, now gone cold.
Applying similar reasoning to our fictional universe (while it is doubtful the laws governing the four empires are in any way similar to the Nevada law of 14 years ago) it could be argued that the podded capsuleer has recovered from death, it would not be classified as murder. Please support: export of settings in editable format
Your stuff goes here. |
Qvar Dar'Zanar
EVE University Ivy League
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.26 21:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
Definitely not. The point on punishing murder is the ending of somebody's life. If he comes back, he's not that dead. But ofc, we can't say the same about the crew, hence why CONCORD still has to do something about it. |
David Toviyah
University of Caille Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 11:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Well, as someone else already pointed out, is it really GÇ£himGÇ¥ who comes back? Or another person who happens to share a lot of his DNA and memories? |
Qvar Dar'Zanar
EVE University Ivy League
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
It's not "a lot", it's "everything". Always, in regard of the DNA, and usually everything in regards of memories (if the pilot dies in a pod). With the same arguments you could ask if somebody who suffers alzheimer or permanent amnesia is "the same person".
The distinction is hard. Is the same person somebody who awakes in a clone? Is the same person somebody whose legs and arms were lost in a car accident and replaced medically? Is the same person somebody who suffers alzheimer or permanent amnesia? Was Falek Grange Falek Grange after being awaken without any memory about his past life? |
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
294
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 12:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
David Toviyah wrote:Well, as someone else already pointed out, is it really GÇ£himGÇ¥ who comes back? Or another person who happens to share a lot of his DNA and memories?
I guess if they are the 'legal' embodiment of a person in name, property and entitlement, then yes.
If you wish to take a physiological approach, then you could argue that as the cells of a human body alter and change over time - then someone past 7 years of comitting said murder cannot be legally charged with a murder as they are 100% a different person.
This, all comes back to the legal definitions within Concord and I'd use that as a base comparision, extrapolating whatever I wanted to, that would fit the story I wish to tell.
You can always use a sleight of hand and have a side character arguing the whys and whereforths contained within the construct of your scene(s), that perhaps would shine a small light on some of the thought processes someone might go through with this topic.
I think unless 'this' is a major plot point, or has bearing elsewhere in your story - just ignore it, have a coke and a smile and move on.
AK GÇ£You go into combat, and itGÇÖs NOT going to be WagnerGǪindustrial techno or really hard drum and bassGÇ¥ Reynir Hardarson, founding member of CCP Games, 2002.
somethingjustgotreal.com |
Benjamin Eastwood
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 15:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
Would killing Paris Hilton be murder or cruelty to animals? If the person can pass that test, then it's murder. If not, they're just worthless excrement swimming in pod goop. |
Qvar Dar'Zanar
EVE University Ivy League
71
|
Posted - 2012.06.27 17:28:00 -
[20] - Quote
If all the different pirate factions agree on using latin names for their ranks conventions... Doesn't that imply that latin is the common language in the world of EVE? |
|
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
72
|
Posted - 2012.06.28 07:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
Hell yes. |
The Chronophage
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 13:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:If all the different pirate factions agree on using latin names for their ranks conventions... Doesn't that imply that latin is the common language in the world of EVE?
It's also the common language of many Amarr loyalist organisations. Everyone else are dirty barbarians. |
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
19
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:If all the different pirate factions agree on using latin names for their ranks conventions... Doesn't that imply that latin is the common language in the world of EVE? Or they have no clue what it means and think it sounds cool.
|
Jax Bederen
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
66
|
Posted - 2012.06.30 20:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
Just posted something similar in another thread, It is murder as your mind is self contained much like the clone, what wakes up is not you, has your patterns but your consciousness is gone when podded. This a a fallacy with clones, many think it's you waking up. Say you are in a room with your clone, you are shot, the clone will say, man you shot him and not man you shot me. He's an individual and separate from your consciousness. Only way to truly survive is to direct transfer patterns body to body. Maybe eve lore does this somehow, but if not, podded is dead. |
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |